Submissions
Posted by Chris L on Dec 20th, 2007
2007
Dec 20
Do you know of a good article we should link to? Has an unfair attack been made on a Christian brother or sister which you believe we should address? Is there a topic you have questions about that you would like us to explore?
While we can’t promise that we will respond to every idea posted here, this is a place for you to make these kinds of suggestions. The writers here at CRN.Info check here on an occasional basis and (hopefully) will respond to your suggestion. If not, bug us a little bit more…
January 16th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Have you seen this post on CRN?
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=4218
Particularly note the second “here” link and take note of the source that they are using and the advertisements all around the outside (Marilyn Manson concert, Deja Vu strip club, lustlab, etc.)
January 17th, 2008 at 5:57 am
CRN lies.
John MacArthur slanders…
But what else is new?
iggy
January 29th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Check out this guy!
January 29th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Iggy,
The use of “ODM” gives you away…
January 29th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Not to mention I semi-plagiarized Tim last post!
iggy
January 30th, 2008 at 8:52 am
I think crn.com is unfairly attacking westboro baptist’s protest of Heath Ledgers Funeral
( I am being sarcastic here)
You should look and give them some props for once!
January 30th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
PB,
they often give kudos… so it is not just “for once”.
In fact, this is the first time CNR.info and CRN are on the same team due to Chris R’s post you are referring to.
February 12th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I noticed the editor at CRN references a four-year-old article by Tim Challies to remind us that Mother Teresa is probably not in heaven:
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=4456
Now *that’s* research.
February 14th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I read these “warnings” and so on about “Lord, save us from your followers”
The more I look into it it looks like this movie is actually being made by Christians. It looks like a platform for helping to dispel myths about Christians and remind people that hate ins’t a Christian virtue and actual Christians are much more approachable then we seem.
But this film is getting slammed across the blogosphere by ODM’s and so.
http://watcherslamp.blogspot.com/2008/02/heresy-goes-to-hollywood-summer-08.html
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=4471
Do you think you guys could try to interview the filmakers of this flick for an article or podcast? They seem to have a lot of good things to say, check out their website and the filmclips they have there.http://www.lordsaveus.net/
It looks like a good flick to put on peoples radars to support from what I have seen so far.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
http://whileromeburns.blogspot.com/2008/02/trees-tyson-and-tony-jones-sol-strikes.html
Quick reply I “cooked up” after reading Ingrid’s latest. Thought you might want to have a look.
February 21st, 2008 at 12:16 pm
This might be of interest, since you have been talking about Viola’s book lately. It’s a blog post about a Barna poll on what people think constitutes “church.” Some of the responses are interesting (e.g., participating in spiritual activities on the internet). There is, however, quite a discussion going on about so-called “home churches.” See:
http://blog.9marks.org/2008/02/are-we-fiddling.html
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Talk about getting too focused on minor points and missing the bigger issues!
iggy
February 26th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
No… really this is day four… they skipped a day and then came back with more empty false accusations! LOL!
February 27th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Two NEW articles covering Warren Smith, rabid anti-Rick Warren author of Deceived On Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose Driven Church.
Warren Smith was the guest on Pastor Chuck Smith’s radio program, then spoke at Calvary Chapel (Costa Mesa), and is now scheduled to speak at he Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor’s Conference!
I have just completed a 25-point refutation/response to Warren Smith’s lecture at Calvary Chapel
http://abanes.com/warrensmith_morelies.html
This is a compliment to my first article on Warren Smith’s book Deceived On Purpose
http://abanes.com/warrensmith.html
Enjoy,
Richard Abanes
February 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Is this an open invitation to write a 50 point rebuttal to your 25 point rebuttal?
February 27th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Richard to label Warren as New Age is a major stertch and really without merit. This is where the hyper-ventilation approach is counter productive to any real exchange of strong positions.
I am one who, as I said, considers Rick Warren a believing follower of Christ. However his methods are hyper-pragmatic and misrepresent that cross carying nature of Christianity.
Additionally, I stongly disagree with his unions with many questionable groups in humanitarian efforts. His “man of peace” suposition taken from the gospels is an adventure in subjective interpretation that appaers nowhere in the teaching epistles. Also, his suggestion to the crowd in Switzerland that doing good regardless of your motivation is acceptables is again unsubstantiated in the New Testament. And to suggest that churches so permiate the landscape worldwide that they would be greatly suited for profiteering bases is breathtaking.
All of this I attribute to a hyper-pragmatism that removes both the ethereal quality and the eternal implications that cannot be separated and unpresented from the teachings of the New Tesatement. I have confidence in Rick’s good intentions, but I believe he is straying.
February 28th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Nathan - Is this an open invitation to write a 50 point rebuttal to your 25 point rebuttal?
RA: Feel free to do so.
February 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I think Nathan was just giving you a hard time, Richard - he’s not a Rick Warren critic
February 28th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
H: Richard to label Warren as New Age is a major stertch and really without merit. This is where the hyper-ventilation approach is counter productive to any real exchange of strong positions.
RA: Agreed
- - - -
H: However his methods are hyper-pragmatic and misrepresent that cross carrying nature of Christianity.
RA: Can you go here and tell me what you think and how what Warren/Saddleback teaches runs contrary to “that cross carrying nature of Christianity” (which, tbh, is a phrase I am not sure I understand).
http://abanes.com/Warren_Doctrine.html
http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html
http://abanes.com/warrenessentials.html
- - - -
H: I stongly disagree with his unions with many questionable groups in humanitarian efforts.
RA: My opinion is here:
http://abanes.com/unequally_yoked.html
http://abanes.com/reconciliation.html
– - -
H: Also, his suggestion to the crowd in Switzerland that doing good regardless of your motivation is acceptable is again unsubstantiated in the New Testament.
RA: My opinion is here:
http://abanes.com/peace.html (see the DAVOS clip section)
RA
February 28th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Oh I know he was just bustin’ my chops.
March 2nd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Talk about some whacked theology! and i am not talking about Tony Jones’s.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 am
Pastorboy has yet to give an answer to his bad theology.
March 8th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Some recent comments by Piper about “excommunicating” Arminians are causing a bit of a firestorm. Here is one good response:
http://julieclawson.com/2008/03/06/excommunicating-arminians/
March 11th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Found this on Mark Driscoll’s blog, thought it was interesting:
March 15th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I saw this via a link at http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
http://dougpagitt.com/?p=87
As far as I am concerned, the case is closed on Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell…
I am schocked you folks haven’t said anything about this yet…
March 15th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Well, if the case is closed as far as you are concerned. That settles it for me too. Dave Marriot says it, I believe it, that settles it.
March 15th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Dave,
Quit pretending like up till now you were reasonably considering what Bell and Pagitt had to say.
March 15th, 2008 at 11:25 am
is “schocked” like a Germanic, more intense form of “shock”?
need-to-know information.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:41 am
A lesson in how some unfortunate “discerners” think can be found at:
http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/crisis-in-the-church-rick-warren/#comments
After attempting to blog respond at the site called “DISCERN IT,” I was met with some of the nastiest, hate-filled, and blinded replies in my experiences in cyberspace, followed by me being blocked and congratulatory remarks all around by those who remained to each other because they had met the enemy and he was confounded: “You DID it,” one gushing poster said, patting the others on the back.
Apparently, I had been exposed as someone who was not only lying, but boldly now calling for a synthesis between other religions and Christianity. Their proof? My book “Inside Today’s Mormonism — which actually REFUTES every major doctrine of the LDS Church, going into great detail to argue AGAINST the most up-to-date arguments by Mormons who are defending their faith.
In attempting to communicate the actual contents of my book and my stand on Mormonism, I was castigated at every turn, despite the clear facts — which no one wanted to hear (as it turns out, none of them had even read the book).
This interaction is a very, very clear example of how these people think. Consider these comebacks:
“Richard has been hitting websites like this with his trademark self-righteous doublespeak followed by abusive (belittling and demeaning) shame tactics”
“the true Gospel of Christ is not what Rick Warren, or Richard Abanes, can really be about”
“Sir if there is anyone who is a liar it is you!â€
“Mr Abanes you are a CLASSIC Post-Modernist Blogger! â€
“I am at great peace with God and my comments unlike yours do honor God and not men.â€
“RA is a scoundrel, a real man of the world.â€
“Richard you give me shivers. your mask is off. And I don’t like what I see.â€
Ah well. Guys/Gals, these people need some serious prayer. It’s like they are so blinded by hate, anger, zeal, and paranoia, they can’t even see truth when its staring them in the face. They see the color red and they say it’s yellow. They see a box and call it a triangle. Soeone turns left and they claim the perosn turned right. I’m almost left speechless after an interaction like this (my first post begins about 1/4 down the blog page). I thought this might be a good way to examine how such folks operate even in the face of getting true information straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak — in other words, instead of me talking about Rick Warren, I was there just trying to talk about what my OWN beliefs were, and yet it didn’t matter. Now THAT is extraordinary.
Basically, it came down to me saying, “Guys, I believe ABC.” Their response was, “No you don’t! You believe XYZ, and your a liar and a scoundrel, too.”
How can you argue with that?
R. Abanes
March 18th, 2008 at 9:00 am
There will always be aggressive hyperbole in those comment sections. However it isn’t as much what Rick believes, as per his statment of faith, that some of us disagree with, it is his methodology. I am a stauch Arminian, but I reject hyper-pragmatism as a means to communicate the gospel. And I reject joining hnads with unbelievers in humanitarian efforts that obscure the name of Jesus.
I do not question his motives, but even you must see our concerns even while you yourself and from your perspective do not see them similarly. A person can claim to believe ABC and through questionable methodology distort the nature of those beliefs which is the issue at hand, not telling you what you believe.
You are very gracious and courageous to particpate in that comment thread, and even though I may agree with the basic points of some of those commentors, I still contend a level of respect and love should be afforded and without the “scorched earth” exchanges.
BTW - your scholaraly comments complete with quotes reveals a level of energy of which I am unfamiliar!
March 18th, 2008 at 9:24 am
RICK: There will always be aggressive hyperbole in those comment sections.
RA: Hey Rick! It’s not so much hyperbole I mind. Or even a certain level of aggression (such is the nature of blogs). But I think when it sinks to a level out and out lying and character insults that are not hyperbole at all, but made as actual statements of fact, then that is where a line (probably several) has been crossed.
——
RICK: However it isn’t as much what Rick believes, as per his statement of faith, that some of us disagree with, it is his methodology.
RA: I think you stand in good company. I don’t even necessarily agree with his methodology in all areas or choices he has made. We’re all free to have such disagreements, and in turn do things our own ways as we seek to serve God, our Lord and judge. But this is not a freedom that peeps like those on the blog and elsewhere are allowing for. A different methodology, a different personality, a different decision about whatever, and you become a target for attack no matter what you believe. That’s not apologetics, that’s just sin — especially when lies, half-truths, misinformation, out-of-context quotes, and disinformation is used to make the charges. Then, when truth is supplied, it is ignored (again, very bad).
—-
RICK: I am a staunch Arminian, but I reject hyper-pragmatism as a means to communicate the gospel. And I reject joining hands with unbelievers in humanitarian efforts that obscure the name of Jesus.
RA: I can understand your objections, and they hold weight. Although, for example, on the issue of joining hands with unbelievers to assist in social causes, I see nothing biblical against that - see my article on being unequally yoked at
http://abanes.com/unequally_yoked.html . And insofar as pragmatism goes, this is a very vague term that might mean one thing to one person and another thing to another person. How far is too far? Seems very subjective to me.
—-
RICK: I do not question his motives, but even you must see our concerns even while you yourself and from your perspective do not see them similarly. A person can claim to believe ABC and through questionable methodology distort the nature of those beliefs which is the issue at hand, not telling you what you believe.
RA: Yeah, I understand. I have no problem with that. I think part of the issue is how people are approaching the subject. They are not allowing for freedom of choice of other Christians — Bible-believing, Christ-loving, doctrinally-sound Christians — when it comes to how that Christian preaches the gospel, speaks publicly, or even who they associate with. The line of doctrinal purity and biblical soundness has been moved from where it should be (i.e., the bloodline and essentials of the faith) way way back to where you are not behind the line unless you:
- say “hell” enough everywhere you go,
- answer questions from interviewers perfectly the way the “discerners” think you should have answered it,
- speak at the right places as opposed to the wrong places
- use the correct type of music in your church
- preach “the gospel” using the exact same methods/messages that is preached in the churches of the “discerners”
- never use words/phrases/terms that have been used by non-Christians (even though you mean something else entirely)
Freedoms of Christ, not to mention just freedoms as an American, are being eroded by these people who want everyone to view everything exactly as they do — or else you get targeted and attacked as a heretic who is poisoning the church. It’s hard to see how things escalated in a similar fashion during the witch hunts of Medieval Europe, the Crusades, and the Salem witch trials. Actually, it’s a bit unnerving.
—-
RICK: You are very gracious and courageous to participate in that comment thread, and even though I may agree with the basic points of some of those commentors, I still contend a level of respect and love should be afforded and without the “scorched earth†exchanges.
RA: I try — although I am not always successful. I mean, let’s face it, you can only be called a liar, a scoundrel, a false teacher, and a deceiver so often without it eventually wounding you very deeply, especially when you have given your entire life to defending the faith as an apologist. It gets…… tiresome and discouraging. The lies are so vicious. I think what is most painful is seeing it all done in the name of Christ, under the guise of righteousness, for the supposed sake of truth and defending the truth. It’s so sad. So very, very, sad.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I will continue to disagree with some of Rick Warren’s methodology and associations, however, I believe he is a Christian who has a heart for the lost and I admire his work in Africa. I took great umbrage when some criticized Kay Warren when she shared her story of coming to compassion about African AIDs sufferers.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/03/this-is-not-christ-k-ay-warren-rick.html
So I appreaciate your tone and encoursge you to guard your heart. As one who speaks out on my blog I find it necessary to temper my views with the Spirit of Christ. I cannot claim complete success in that.
Peace in Christ.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I’m holding a “kill the keg” party at my house! Bring your bathing suits.
Oh…I forgot, I don’t drink. Oh well, iced tea!
March 19th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Tim H. and R.A.,
Would you guys mind taking the conversation to email or some other thread, as this thread is really not meant to be a place for back and forth, but really just a place for commenters to present possible article submissions.
 Thanks.
March 19th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Phil,
Appreciate your response and we can certainly do that. Maybe you can recommend a thread we can move this to on this site? I don’t see anything in the list of catagories where we can continue. And I certainly thought that comments were allowed since others have done so above, sorry.
Blessing to you..
March 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Tim,
Yeah, we do allow comments here, but I just didn’t want a potential submission to get lost in the sea of comments. As far as where else you can go, I see Richard has a thread about this on his blog now.
We actually have been periodically deleting the comments from this thread for housekeeping sake.
Â
March 19th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
PHIL!!!! HIT THE DELETE BUTTONS BUUDDY!!!
March 28th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23847511
This is the murder of a gay 8th grader. More evidence how we as believers should be ministers of reconciliation and not carelessly use words like “Sodom” in our speech that can not only demean those who God lovces but also incite other sinners to hate enough even to commit murder.
Truth be told, many believers don’t feel bad when gays are persecuted and are ambivilent when they die.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:00 am
I noticed this post on CRN:
Face of Christianity Will Soon be Black, Says Scholar
How the heck can the fact that there is a huge global shift in the demograhic in Christianity cause the ‘Editor’ to say that ‘Words fail concernign this story’ - it might not be intentional but it sounds imperialistic, sexist and racist.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Not surprised by the articles main topic that Ian posted above.
After all there are certain people in the western church who keep telling us that “the face of Christianity” is going to change becuase of whatever ministry is starting up and it all seems to be based on the the “word of the Lord” for today. So why not have the “Face of Christianity” change socially/nationally as well.
In the O.T. it says, “God never changes”
N.T. verse is. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
In Heb it says, “God doesn’t change as the shifting shadows.”
Hmmm….
April 5th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Thank God that I don’t need to be “nice”.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
THE NAZI CARD, my friends, has finally been played. Did anyone doubt it would eventually be used. Unreal.
See The Mythical World of Richard Abanes
April 7th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Richard
What Tim Wirth has done is only to give perfect demonstration to Godwin’s Law. Perhaps he should stop slandering other Christians and do something productive…
April 7th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
At least Goebbels made a few good points, though. Let’s not throw the baby out with the…oh never mind. The Fatherland!!
April 7th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Ingrid compared the LCMS to the Soviets awhile back. While they aren’t quite as reviled they did manage to rack up a higher body count.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
At least you words are in red! Talk about hyperbole, I mean, Himmler OK, but Goebbels? Man, do some research! I can see the resemblence between Kay Warren and Eva Braun, though.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
THE NAZI CARD
Is that like the Old Maid? I’ll trade two Heidrichs for one Rommel. How about an Eichman for a Magda Goebbels? By the way, the tune for Deutschland über alles (Germany over all) is a Lutheran hymn!
April 7th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Rick — you absolutely kill me. ROFL.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Richard,
That man, Writh, is lying about you.
That article flaming you was just terrible.
What do you think? Aside from the obvious tinfoil hatting….
Joe C
April 7th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Hi All,
Please remember that this isn’t really a conversation forum. This is the place for submission ideas for articles here. If you’d like to have discussions feel free to do that on personal blogs or via email.
Have a great one!
April 10th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Did ya’ll read the article over at “hope in laodicea” where Ingrid actually has a pretty balanced article on modesty?
Interesting…maybe worth noting positively.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Today, Ingrid quizzed some poor church receptionist about the Reformation. Needless to say, she didn’t do very well.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Well at least she’s giving people the benefit of a phone call before trashing them online now.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Where is that dead horse beating that Chris L. posted when you need it?
April 11th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Anyone see this quote from Jim at Old Truth?
“I’ve mentioned before about the first Sunday I ever brought my family to visit Bill Hybels’ Willow Creek church, and there was an unmarried couple in front of us with their hands in each other’s back (jean) pockets. I’m not trying to be self-righteous nor am I denying that Jesus ate with tax collectors, but - this was church folks! I know nothing about this couple, but let’s suppose for a moment that they were living together.”
Let’s see, he knew they were unmarried but he knows nothing about them. What if they were living together? I mean, people, this was “church”. Of course this was not “church”, this was a gathering by the church with an invitation for unbelievers to attend.
I do believe the early believers ate together at “church” so Jesus eating with tax collectors may have carried over to “church”. Let us just accept this fact, many believers cannot stand unbelievers, especially in “church”. And Jim’s point was if they were living together, how would Willow Creek discipline them because they are so big. There must be another word for “huh?”.
April 11th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
http://www.founders.org/blog/2008/01/wsj-on-church-discipline.html
April 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
I guess you cannot link to OT from here. That link I provided goes to a wax museum.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Correction - that quote was from a guy named Tom, but it was posted on Jim’s blog which is considered an endorsement.
April 12th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
SECOND CORRECTION - My friend itolyaso informed me that is was Jim, not Tom. My question is this:
If you go to a gathering of believers on a Sunday morning (the word “church” is a colloquial misuse) and two MEN are seated in front of you with their hands in each other’s jean pockets, what action would God have you take?
Should you:
1. Smack their hands away and give them one more chance.
2. Ask them if they are married.
3. Shout loudly that no effeminate will enter the kingdom
4. Move your seat
5. Ask the usher to apply some church discipline
6. Be disgusted and complain all day
7. Share it in love with your blog audience
8. Pray for them
9. Do all 1 thru 7
I know, I’m sorry for pulling the “spiritual card” but I couldn’t think of anything else.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
ummmm…did ya’ll see the recent Camp article?
April 13th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
nc - yes. And I saw Camps expose on American Idol singing “Shout to the Lord” at the end and with Ben Stiller saying some words afterward that were bleeped out. Regardless of any pros or cons about them singing a Christian song (who really cares), I found this comment by Camp to be an especially nice touch if you are self righteous Phariscernment member:
“For Mars Hill Church members, this will seem like Sunday morning worship; for everyone else, it will seem like Saturday night at the bowling alley”
What a way to use American Idol as a way to make a public jab at Mars Hill Church. This reveals what I have believed for some time now, these people cannot look at anything or anybody without judging them through the myopic parameters of their own Phariscernment spectacles.
And in another absolutely humorous piece of irony Camp’s next post speaks very highly of Mike Corley (who I like) who treats Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill CHurch with respect. You can’t make this stuff up, folks.
BTW - Phariscerners - That is my new word for people who are self righetous and exhibit a bitter and biting type of condescending discernment and especially toward sinners. Sinners like those who sit in front of you in church with their hands in each other’s back pockets and are probably not married. (It’s like church porn!) They are Phariscerners.
April 14th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2008/04/proper-confiden.html
FANTASTIC post by Andrew Jones…
It shows, in his gentle way, the lies of Johnny Mac Arty’s “truth war”.
April 14th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Where in the linked post does he quote John MacArthur? It appears that nine out of eleven paragraphs of the post are devoted to quotes from Lesslie Newbigin’s book.
April 14th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I said in a “gentle way”. The post is clearly showing language and intent of those who are being accused of denying the clarity of scripture.
Doesn’t need to be named, but who else is hawking a book with a thesis of that very accusation?
“gentle way”, that’s Andrew’s style.
And it has direct bearing on these issues.
I think it’s a great, pro-active post that offers some other ideas without the unneccesary ranting.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Funny. I figured the phrase “It shows…” meant “actually quote…”
NO ONE else is “hawking a book with a thesis of that very accusation?” I’m not saying they are, just wondering how you know that no one else is.
April 14th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Keith,
Yes you are right, John MacArthur and those that follow him are writing books that mischaracterize “certainty” as we in the emerging church see it.
Can you accept the fact that John is wrong on something? I mean So far he is wrong about me on about every point… and I can point to others like me he is wrong about… but we are all cast into the same overgeneralized world of JM… He has one crayon and colors everyone the same with it without a care that he may harm or be lying about any of us.
Do you think it is right to lie about someone? If so how can you support JM in his lies against people like me and others? How can you defend one that promotes truth as he sees it by lying about others?
Just think about that for a moment please.
iggy
April 14th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
So…the Truth War book wasn’t promoted as a direct response to the idea that people are teaching God/truth can’t be understood?
The post by Andrew reveals what really has been said, etc.
No matter what people say, Keith, the EC is primarily about missiology and ecclesiology. Just because Bri-boy McLaren has shared what has always been “his personal theology” in a way that makes a splash doesn’t mean that the substance of the EC is really about those other things.
That’s what drew me to it.
Not because I believe “young pups” have found a better way, but because I needed relationships with people who were struggling in churches to share the gospel–really share it–rather than pay lipservice to it while running a spiritualized, self-righteous country club called a “church”.
I’m just sharing honestly, so you can see why some of us get our hackles up when people characterize many of us with language that is just incomprehensible to me…doesn’t represent my views…or my experience of the views of others within a wide ranging relational network of friends called Emergent Village.
I think it’s important for people to read the real sources of information that have shaped the Emerging Church.
While Bri-Mac may “popularize” it or “de-popularize” it for some…he’s not the definitive figure for most of us. I’ve read 2 of his books…and along with Len Sweet’s stuff haven’t really found anything that interests me there.
The EC, and Emergent Village, is not a group of sycophants for the man, we’re just trying to do church in our zip codes as faithfully as we can.
On Bri-Mac: His own church CRC wouldn’t strike people as radical. It feels like a typical, suburban, evangelical community that shares the gospel in pretty typical ways.
Reasoned, clear, specific rebuttals of specific people is great. But Johnny Mac Arty Mac -n- Cheese has a real rep. for armchair flame throwing. And that’s why he deserves the kind of bristling responses he gets. Frankly.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Iggy:</strong>”Can you accept the fact that John is wrong on something?” Absolutely! He’s wrong: all Calvinists shouldn’t be dispensationalists. I’m not–dispy–that is. I don’t agree with him on that one. See there, you didn’t think I could do it, did you? As far as the “truth war,” I think he’s dead on.
===
nc:“the Truth War book wasn’t promoted as a direct response to the idea that people are teaching God/truth can’t be understood? I don’t recall the book/MacArthur saying Truth couldn’t be understood…I believe the point was that Truth wasn’t being preached/taught by the Emerging Church. I think the EC understands it, they just don’t like it so they massage it–make it more palatable or downplay it all together under the guise of “being more missional or relevant.
“…you can see why some of us get our hackles up when people characterize many of us with language that is just incomprehensible to me…doesn’t represent my views…or my experience… Really? If I had said the same thing, I imagine you (and others here) would say I’m close-minded, or a MacArthur worshipper, etc. I guess it sounds much more like Jesus when you say it.
“…Johnny Mac Arty Mac -n- Cheese…” Good grief. How old ARE you? Is that really necessary?
April 14th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Sorry about the “bold” tag. (previous post)
April 14th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Keith,
Then you agree that by John MacArthur’s judgment I am not saved.
Thanks!
iggy
April 14th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
“Then you agree that by John MacArthur’s judgment I am not saved.”
The jury is still out!!
April 14th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Kieth,
You also agree that truth is so fragile and that God needs us to protect Him and His truth…
Again, that is so sad that you reduce God to needing mere men to “protect” truth.
Truth is what protects us for Truth is the Person of Jesus.
But, JM is right on… of course so the bible is wrong.
iggy
April 14th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
OK I realized two things… one I forgot to change the name thingy and two this is the submissions area and we are not supposed to comment here so I apologize.
I would love to continue though to discuss this Kieth… email me is you want… or don’t if you don’t want.
Be blessed,
iggy
April 14th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Iggy: I read the book (Truth War)…never saw your name mentioned. Not even once. Email is on the way.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Talk about a real misunderstanding:
I never said J-Mac was teaching “Truth couldn’t be understood”. I said his book was written and marketed as a direct response to people HE CLAIMED WERE TEACHING “truth couldn’t be understood”. The post by Andrew demonstrates the influence of the REAL position that is being mischaracterized by J-MAC as teaching something that is NOT being propounded if understood in light of Newbiggin.
good grief.
RE: Mac-N-Cheese….it’s just some levity…good grief, again.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Btw, I don’t think you’re close minded.
the Mac-worship…hmmm….well….
Ha! Just kidding..
April 15th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Hireling pastors who are so lazy, dishonest and biblically illiterate that they have to rip off sermons from Internet sites and download movie clips to keep their goats entertained…
LOOOOOVE that quote from Ingrid’s latest squawk.
April 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Hey Guys,
The submissions page isn’t really the place for comment discussion
April 16th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
What the &$%£* is wrong with Rapture Ready i’m starting to get mad!!!
I’m flipping fed up of Rapture Ready posting about disabled people,with statements from the stone age!!!!
When two ladies born with the down syndrome condition (correct term in the UK) were involved in the bombing in a Iraq market, RR had post saying mannn now their using retards..
Then today the young baby girl in India is now being posted under a thread called “the 2-Faced Baby is Hailed As an Indian Goddess”..
Then someone post “arn’t most of these “freak” births in India” or quote ” WOAH haha cool! does it.. like… is it like 2 people? lol ”
Ive worked for nearly 25 years on and off in all areas of care and these people are driving me %$%£^ madddddddddddd
grrrrrrrrrrrr sorry just ranting haven’t checked my spelling
April 16th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
oops sorry Joe i thought a better writer might see this, and run with the ball
April 16th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
link http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=42110
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Thought this was interesting. Don’t know what to make of it. Mclaren says some pretty shady things in this one…
I’m trying to be the graceful reader too… Maybe I don’t have the whole story or all of his thoughts. Anyways, worth a look. Do we think what he’s saying is too far off from the Bible?
Joe
April 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Are you telling me that no one is posting about the new treasure trove of quotes from the “Rev.” Wright? Today he reiterated his belief that the American government might have invented AIDs to commit geneocide against the black man. Come on, somebody, this man a political gift from hell.
So Hannah Montana deserves more critical ink than this guy?
April 28th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
You guys really ought to write a post about Doug Pagitt at the seeds of compassion event. You’l notice that he was roundly criticized prior to the event, but then all he did was talk about jesus while he was there. Admitedly, he doesn’t ’share the gospel’, but he does speak about Jesus every time he speaks. Doesn’t he deserve props from someone?
The clips are on his blog - dougpagitt.com
April 29th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
If anyone would like to tell me how to make/edit a hyperlink in this comment box, I would be grateful.
darrensapp@charter.net
April 29th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Hi Darren, I E-mailed a run through for you. Basically you can click the “>>” button above the comments box and use the external link button like you would for a quote or italics.
A suggestion for making this easier - what about a phpbb style forum for the comments instead? The new articles could be linked to the new thread with rights set to the mods only create in that forum.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:15 am
Please pray.
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:34 am
Hey an ‘ODM’ (me) noticed that Doug Pagitt DID mention Jesus at the seeds of compassion!
I’d love to see your comments.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
Ok, given your past history and the obvious shortness of the bit you quoted, as well as the failure to supply what he was responding to I don’t trust the basis on which your analysis is built, especially considering that analysis is in complete agreement with everything you’ve written and everything those who feed your traffic agree with.
May 3rd, 2008 at 10:24 am
A NEW series on “Imagination” from a biblical perspective is beginning today on ODM website: http://obadiah1317.wordpress.com/
It might be worth watching, given our recent conversations about Richard Foster, OBE, and imagination.
May 3rd, 2008 at 10:32 am
A fairly new ODM named DANIEL CHEW that I had not seen before. I just went a few rounds with him after he attacked me on his ODM website titled: “Daniel’s Place - (Reformata et semper reformanda).” http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/
You know with a name like that, there is bound to be all kinds of ODM nuggets. He even has a self-published book (a vanity press) out on Rick Warren titled “Driven Away By Purpose.”
Our interaction is documented and discussed here in my latest blog entry: http://richardabanes.wordpress.com/
May 8th, 2008 at 12:35 am
Have you seen the new Evangelical Manifesto:
http://www.anevangelicalmanifesto.com/index.php
?
May 10th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I have posted in the past on Steve Camps site, and even changed my mind on some things through is replies to me….But his recent post about John Pipers son’s blog came out of the blue seems way harsh
May 10th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
oops
http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/05/christian-fathers-and-young-men-let-no.html
May 10th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I like when ODMs eat their own, it really demonstrates that what they have to say is so narrow that guys like Piper can’t fit in.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Borderline schadenfreude.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Maybe. But its more of an obvious example of what we already knew.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
It could be an example of a shark feeding frenzy where sometimes the sharks bite each other.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I keep checking back over at Slice to see if Ingrid has issued her mea culpa regarding the Hilary Griffith Peele comments (I’m not holding my breath). In the meantime, she’s managed to take a shot at Franklin Graham, who apparently doesn’t get any points for praying in Jesus’ name at George W. Bush’s 2001 inauguration. She also spreads the love to Kay Warren for hanging out with “hard core” emergents.
Exit question: Are there any “soft core” emergents and, if so, who are they?
Truly this woman has no shame.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Ray - you are correct. To label a man of God as a “shill for the communist party” is both unscriptural for a women as well as a man because it is a personal hyperbole. Franklin Graham is an outspoken witness for Christ being criticzed for preaching the gospel at the Columbine memorial.
Mrs. Schlueter is a Christian woman who should be corrected by someone in authority in her circle. That may be the problem.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:50 am
OK, in the latest MacArthur atricle linked to by CRN we find this amazing statement:
“Some of them flatly deny that God in any sense loves those whom He has not chosen for salvation.”
MacArthur insists that Goes loves those who He hasn’t offered salvation. Is it emotional love without any action? It must be different love than the elect. His theology is desiring to have you cake and eat it too. God loves everyone but only chooses to save a very, very, very, very, very, very few. Wow, what love!
I have three children, if they are ever caught in a house fire I’ll offer a ladder to one.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
OH MY GOODNESS - Warren Smith together now with CONSTANCE CUMBEY!!!!! Everyone just pack up your bags and run, run, run.
http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/
May 15th, 2008 at 12:26 am
What do you make of a person who debates a parody of himself?!
May 16th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Another article might be appropriate in response to what has JUSt transpired regarding the special “critics” session that Rick Warren was hoping to hold with his most vocal critics -
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=741
INGRID’S RESPONSE
The results are in - out of the many critics invited (I have the list) - not a SINGLE person accepted except for Chris Rosebrough of Extremetheology blog.
So, the critics have shown their true motives - not reconciliation, not face-to-face correction, not personal confrontation, but attacks from behind the safety of computer screens, using digital assaults that can reach out far and wide, but without any accountability - without the courage to actually speak with someone in person.
As for Chris Rosebrough, the guy has insulted me, angered me, frustrated me, and failed in my book when it comes to apologetics and dealing with Rick Warren — BUT, at least he had the courage to take that invitation and would have been there.
Sadly, because no one responded, the golden opportunity has been canceled.
RAbanes
May 16th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Richard - my serious health problems forbid me to travel. Therefore I extend to Rick Warren an invitation to Florida and stay at my house for one night for a face to face meeting. If he refuses, I will assume he doesn’t have the courage to come face to face.
Your analogy is fraught with frustration and not legitimate.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Rick,
Please remember this thread is for suggestions, not commentary on suggestions. If you have a problem with Richard’s submission suggestion you can always feel free to email him personally, or write about it on your own blog.
Thanks.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I submit a post that shows that a refusal or inability to meet with someone face to face does not automatically suggest cowardice or any hidden “true motives”. In that same post I submit that the self righteous tone in the reply to a gracious invitation is a much better indication of a person’s motives.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Rick,
LoL. Clearly, I am not referring to isolated people here or there who have reasons. But, seriously, c’mon, Rick, an entire LIST of people ALL just happen to refuse? My personal opinion is that Ingrid made their views rather clear. I have seen the list. ALL of them refused? Rickster, c’mon, buddy.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
That narrowed view has merit and should be included in the post.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Ok, seriously guys, this is not the forum for back and forth. Write your own posts. I’m not just picking on you two, I remind everyone who forgets this. Call it my personal pet peeve. Thanks
May 17th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Mr Abanes Said:
“So, the critics have shown their true motives - not reconciliation, not face-to-face correction, not personal confrontation, but attacks from behind the safety of computer screens, using digital assaults that can reach out far and wide, but without any accountability - without the courage to actually speak with someone in person.”
I say:
What a vastly over the top self-righteous statement! Who do you think you are Mr. Abanes? NO ONE is accountable to Rick Warren!
Your words smack of the Dark History of the Apostate and idolotrous Roman Catholic Inquisition! Whats next Mr Abanes, are you going to start putting people on the “rack” for speaking the Truth?
You are a very blind and sad man Mr Abanes! You still cannot see that Truth is not arrived at by what YOU call “reconciliation”!
Rick Warren has already showed over the years what he is about! AND YOU IGNORE IT!
NO Purpose (no pun intended) would be served for those whom you call Mr Warren’s critics to come to Saddleback and “reconcile” with Rick Warren!
The only way in which Rick Warren and yourself can reconcile yourselves is to repent of the new age apostate soup you peddle!
Your kind of reconciliation is a synonym for compromise! Your kind of reconciliation means that what is going on is just a difference of personal opinion among what you like to call “the Bretheren”! BUT it is nothing more than a form of apostate synthesis! Rick Warren IS NOT PART OF THE BRETHEREN: i.e those who hold to a Biblical Faith!
You want Rick Warren to be able to continue to dismantle the fundamentals of the Christian Faith, without opposition! You want to silence “the resisters”! Those who Publish the Biblical Truth!
Reconciliation? HA! MR Abanes if you were an honest man you would always put your New Age Post Modern Mis-definition in front of it to WARN people what you mean when you use it!
My reconciliation will come with Rick Warren, with open arms and a welcome back into the “Bretheren” WHEN he repents publically of what he ihas done and s doing to dismantle the Christian Faith!
May 17th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Blah, blah, blah… you might try dropping slander first.
Regardless - this page is not for discussion (as Joe has pointed out multiple times) - it is a place to suggest articles for examination for future posts…
May 17th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Wow.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:57 am
I love the guys who think the rules don’t apply to them.
May 17th, 2008 at 10:43 am
I was just feeling left out…
May 20th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Joe - This is a genuine submission.
http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/05/purpose-driven.html
Rick Warren offers and provides full paid trips to his conference to his critics. Then Jim Bulbitz infers Warren’s kindness is just another strategy. Chris agrees with his comment. So let me get this straight, when you show kindness to your enemies (critics) you aren’t doing what Jesus and Paul suggested, you are strategizing.
I am completely convinced that Warren’s motives were sincere. Sometimes you cannot even be a Christian among Christians who strongly disagree with you. And of course Jim adds this self righteous observation,
“Surely he’s not naive enough to imagine that he’s going to change the minds of people like you”
People like you who are God’s gift to doctrinal mankind. As Captain Jack Sparrow might say, “But why is the humility gone?” (rum=humility)
May 20th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Paul Walker denies “Christ in you”?
I guess The Apostle Paul lied also…
Col 1: 27. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Ephesians 2: 22. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17. so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith…
And Peter was wrong also:
1 Peter 1: 10. Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11. trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
Thank God we have the ODM’s to set our theology on the right path!
iggy
May 21st, 2008 at 2:48 pm
This one would be amusing of it were not so sad:
IRREFUTABLE LOGICAL PROOF THAT WARREN IS AN APOSTATE HERETIC
Put together by this colorful chap: DANIEL CHEW (an apparent devotee of the infamous Robert Morey).
R. Abanes
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 am
You guys should post about how CRN , SOL and Lighthouse Trails are all reveling in Deepak Chopra’s “praising” of the Evangelical Manifesto, but when you read his “praises” you find him only agreeing with those basic genral things (shedding intolerance and attack, working together, de-politicizing the Gospel more etc.) but taking great offense at the stands they make for the Gospel in their essential doctorine statements.
It’s another prime example where what they link to contradicts their original article. They want to make it sound like Deepak Chopra is a fan of this manifesto (”he likes what he sees” SOL) when what you read is he is a fan of the same things any sane human being is a fan of (hate is bad, working together is good, let’s save the environment etc.) but against them for all the strong stands they take for the Gospel
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I. Todyaso is offended!
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:53 pm
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=799
The Unification Church is a cult led by Sun Yung Moon.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:40 pm
http://itodyaso.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/ingrids-hidden-contemplative-agenda/
May 26th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Interested in knowing if you all think that ODM’s (are anyone else) should be speaking out against Todd Bentley. Why or why not? “It” (whatever “it” is) has come to a church near me, through a couple of highschool kids who got “it” at Lakeland; I recently heard a couple of people whom I slightly know talking favorably about what is going on. I watched some videos from the church near me. What disturbed me as much as anything was a couple of kids’ voices picked up on the video saying “I’m afraid.”
May 26th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Amy - Just some cursory research seems to show that this guy is deeply into the health & wealth gospel (which I believe is more of a danger to Christianity than anything dreamed up within the E/ECM).
He also has a rap sheet with child molestation on it, which, while it can be forgiven, really calls into question directing an organization in a highly unaccountable position. It’s not safe for him or for others.
Also, while I do not discount the possibility of charismatic gifts, it seems that his trade, part and parcel, is dependent on them. Were it me, I wouldn’t let my kids get involved in this…
May 26th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Would you mind a reference for this? I might talk to one of the people whom I heard favorably talking about the “it” that came from Lakeland to this area. I saw (on the video of the church near me) many people my kids ages and am fairly certain there are other people I know going to this. (It started at a Christian school connected with the church.) While many people will (amazingly) defend “gifts” including writhing on the floor and barking, there are people who might listen to a warning concerning Bentley’s angel visions but especially bonafide child molestation charges.
By your answer I take it