CRN.Info and Analysis

Over at Apprising Ministries, Ken Silva responds to a letter from a reader. Here are a few excerpts that are quite telling of his attitude when it comes to his status

The following is based on an unsolicited email I received here at Apprising Ministries. Please understand that I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach [insert typical Emerging Church whining here], etc. [emphasis mine]
What I wish to bring out is how easy, and I’ll argue arrogant as well, it is for people to simply disregard the teaching of someone like myself who has been studying the fields of apologetics, Comparative Religion and evangelizing non-Christian cults for 21 years….

You said: “I was very surprised to see your negative views on Christian meditation in the article CHRISTIAN MEDITATION WITH MANTRA: DOM JOHN MAIN.” So let me put it another way: I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers. [emphasis mine]

My dad always told me that you could tell alot about someone based on how they respond to correction or constructive criticism. This correspondence to Apprising was in no way instructional or a harsh rebuke. It sounded like an honest reader that was trying to understand where Silva was coming from. Most of the email was actually the reader asking him questions. But, Ken strikes back with his lofty credentials and how a man of his status should not be quickly instructed. How did Silva know that this reader had not spend some time looking at the Apprising articles and made an educated and simply inquisitive inquiry. On top of that, he sends such mixed statements: no pastor is above reproach, but people should not instruct someone who is a pastor-teacher in this manner.

Anyhow, this all too telling of the attitude of both Apprising and CRN:
We are educated, anointed and experienced, therefore we get to criticize whoever we want, whenever we want. And, you better not say anything about it.

Look, I am fine if you have legitimate beef with Rick Warren’s programs. I am fine if you express realistic frustration over realistic issues with Purpose Driven. The problem is, half of the stuff on the internet from the ODMs is poorly supported, or over exaggerated. There is very little that actually has strong content against Warren. Here is part 5 of a series called “Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven“, as if it were one or the other. The title immediately told me where this author, Berit Kjos, was going. Here is just on example of the logic that these guys are using.

“Begin by assessing your gifts and abilities. Take a long, honest look at what you are good at and what you’re not good at. Ask other people. Paul advised, ‘Try to have a sane estimate of your capabilities.’ [Romans 12:3b, The Message] Make a list. Ask other people for their candid opinion…. Spiritual gifts and natural abilities are always confirmed by others.” [4, page 250]

They are? What if your spiritual gift has nothing to do with your natural talents or personal preferences? What if God gave you gifts that would show His exceeding greatness, not yours? In stark contrast to Pastor Warren’s view of spiritual gifts, the apostle Paul said,
[I Cor 2:1-5]
Did you hear that? God uses weak but faithful believers who will demonstrate His power, not their own talents. In fact, our own talents are often the opposite of our spiritual gifts. History shows us how some of God’s most powerful messengers served in total weakness, all the more demonstrating the amazing power of the Holy Spirit. Now as then, many of His servants come to Him as quiet, shy introverts who would fear speaking their name in a group and would shudder at the improbable thought of ever speaking in front of a group.

Wait, where did Warren say that your gifts are given to demonstrate your own ability and power? Where did Warren say that all abilities need to show how great you are? Oh wait, he didn’t. Nor did he say that your spiritual gifts and natural abilities have anything to do with each other, besides that fact that they are both confirmed in community. I am amazed how many times the ODMs will do this! Rick Warren says X, but they go on attacking Y — when he never even said Y! I am not up to speed in all of my logic rhetoric, but this sounds like a straw man argument. Kojos is attacking a premise that Rick Warren never stated.

He goes on to misrepresent Saddleback’s SHAPE assessment (which I actually think it is on the few useful tools in the PD program to help people discover how God has made them). Kojos again writes about Warren blurring the lines between natural abilities and spiritual gifts. He connects the A in Shape (discovering your “abilities”) with the S (discovering your “spiritual gifts”). The fact that Warren puts them in two separate categories says a lot. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that they are different, but Kojos insists that natural abilities and spiritual gifts are synonymous in Warren’s mind. Here is one example from his article.

“Just start serving, experimenting with different ministries and then you’ll discover your gifts,” said Pastor Warren in The Purpose-Driven Life. “…I urge you never to stop experimenting…. I know a woman in her nineties who runs and wins 10K races and didn’t discover that she enjoyed running until she was seventy-eight!” [4, page 251]

So she discovered that she enjoys running races. But what does a new hobby or physical exercise have to do with discovering spiritual gifts? Pastor Warren’s next statement doesn’t help answer that question:

So, I looked up that excerpt in PD Life. The first part of the quote was in the first paragraph on page 251, the last two were in another. Plus, he failed to quote this line right before the story of the seventy-eight year old biker

I have met many people who have discovered hidden talents in their seventies and eighties. [emphasis mine]

Again, Kjos twists the quote to seem like Warren is saying that biking is spome type of spitritual gift. Warren makes it clear when he is talking about spiritual gifts, and when he is talking about natural abilities. And Warren’s whole premise for people finding their abilities is so they can use them for the glory of God. It’s ironic that so many ODMs accuse Warren of only using sections of verses to fit his agenda.

Again, I am not a Rick Warren apologist. But, if you are going to attack someone on an international scale in the name of God, please do so with some degree of legitimacy. I am tired of people using isegesis when “discerning” other people’s ministry. They come with a preconceived premise, and then extract anything they possibly can to support their claims.

**UPDATE**

Kjos is not a dude.

Not that I’m really keeping score but if I were Miley is way ahead in the apology count.

Found Here

TEEN star Miley Cyrus has told a Hannah Montana co-star she is “hurting” and wants to quit the Disney show after she received global criticism for her racy photo shoot in Vanity Fair magazine at the age of 15.
Hannah Montana’s Anna Maria Perez de Tagle, who plays Ashley Dewitt on the popular children’s show, said, “Sometimes I’ll talk to her on the phone and she’ll be like, ‘It’s really hard’ or ‘I’m really tired. I can’t do this,’ according to Showbizspy.

“It really hurt her inside,” says Perez de Tagle. “She didn’t know that people would look at it like that.”

Miley has since apologised for the risque photos, and Annie Leibovitz, the photographer behind the pictures, said she was sorry for any misinterpretation.

While eating my Cheerios this morning and watching Good Morning America I caught an interview with Kirk Cameron from Growing Pains fame and subsequently Way of the Master (WoTM). Kirk was talking about his new book “Still Growing” (an excerpt can be found here)

With this opportunity to share the Gospel with millions of people worldwide; Kurt chose to spend a majority of his time talking about his exploits as a teen heart-throb. When asked what changed his life he didn’t shout “JESUS” or recite John 3:16. He also left out the verse that says Jesus is the way, truth and the life. Nor did he take the interviewer down the Romans road. He simply said “I realized that there has to be more to life than this…I started asking questions…I let the Gospel influence my daily decisions”.

His publicist also just announced that Kirk was invited to the “Seeds of Compassion ‘09″ event.

***satire

*Update*

The video

In the controversial post below, Chris Lyons pointed out how Ingrid was so encouraged by a listener who wraps and sells flowers for a cult in the evening. We get the full story in this article later, that this man was unable to find work and was forced to do this job at night for the Moonies.

My first thought was “I wonder if she would extend the same grace to a purpose driven pastor that was unable to pay the bills and took this job.” I could see the headlines now… “purpose driven pastor supports cult practices.” I really think this is a matter of showing grace where you want to, and upholding the law where you want to. It is acceptable for a believer to work for a cult until they can get a full time job, but Rick Warren can’t partner with secular organizations to help eradicate human poverty. No one is saying that it is wrong for this guy to enjoy VYC America’s programming –not any more wrong than a Buddhist monk enjoying the teachings of Rob Bell.

A year ago, Brian Gordon, the well-known new age energy coach, cited some writings of Erwin McManus on his blog. He definitely tweaked McManus’ words to fit his own ideas and philosophies in the process. Well, the ODMs went nuts over this! They went on and on about how this new-aged energy coach has similar theologies as McManus, and how he was really teaching unbiblical energy philosophies. All of it could not be further from the truth. In fact, when Gordon read what the ODMs were writing, he immediately contacted McManus, ashamed of the negative publicity he had brought him.

It’s amazing how certain groups are unable to see past their own logical processes. For example, if you follow the link in the original article to the VYC America webpage, you will find a video that says

Music Till Dawn will provide a relaxing contemplative atmosphere, where the Holy Spirit can speak to quieted hearts

relaxing contemplative atmosphere? If that was on Doug Pagitt’s website, he would be speared to death by the ODMs for it. There would be all types of arguments as to why we shouldn’t have contemplative prayer where God speaks to us individually. Sola Scriptura! But, somehow contemplative spirituality is ok for VYC America. I am just wondering when the double standard is going to be recognized.

Ingrid criticizes Doug Pagitt for using a clip from a popular TV show to illustrate a point about church.

I guess its only ok when she does it.

“While some “Christian” pastors have slipped their Biblical moorings and are now apologizing for opposing abortion, men like Barak Obama are leading the charge to against pro-life legislation.”

This was the opening line in the post entitled It’s a Mad World, at CRN this morning.

It was followed with the statement

Is it really wrong and “Un-Christian” of Christians to call abortion a sin

So, I followed the link to a little leaven where they asked

Is the church wrong and judgmental for claiming that abortion and homosexuality are sins and contending against them?

Wow! A church that claims it is judgmental to call abortion and homosexualty a sin? A church that says it is wrong to call homosexuality a sin!? Where would this be? Well, it doesn’t exist. Here is the original news story and a few quotes that CRN or A Little Leaven will probably not want you to read

Georgia Baptist pastor who pledged to apologize to gays, women seeking abortions, and couples who live together outside marriage…

His apology was not limited to the aforementioned groups but was directed to those in the secular world that drive by churches each day and never consider visiting because of the judgmental posture…

Lee did not yield ground on his conservative beliefs but said the Church’s established methods of judging others for their shortcomings obviously has not worked. Driving people away from Christ is not an effective way of bringing them to Him, he said through a variety of illustrations….

“I am 37 years old and I believe the Bible is 100 percent truth without error. But the Bible tells us we are to judge our own lives and not the lives of those outside the faith”

And while I firmly believe that Romans 1 is true in its discussion of homosexuality I know that it is much easier to condemn when you do not know those in that lifestyle.

So, this would have been a big, huge, juicy story… if it were actually true. Apologizing for how we have treated these people is not the same as apologizing for what scripture has to say about their lifestyle and choices. I find it very ironic that Christians run to the media for an apology when someone treats them bad, but we are unapologetic for gay bashing, abortion clinic vandalism and arsons, and let’s not mention gadhatesfags.com. Don’t see too much outrage over how we have treated those that need Christ the most.

BTW… I LOVE how they had to drag Barack into the equation. Wouldn’t be a good ODM article without blaming some politicians for where the church has fallen short in affecting society.

Well, well, well, it seems as if the anonymous editor over at CRN.com has a problem with an emergent/emerging church’s gathering due to the adult beverages they served.

Oddly enough, the anonymous editor had nothing to say about the issue of women in leadership, which as you can see was clearly laid out as egalitarian:

Rob and I had talked about the conversation we would have about women in leadership. I was excited for this conversation because I knew how Rob had courageously led his own church through the change of an all male leadership structure to include women on every level of leadership.

Now, for those not paying attention, ODMs have taken a hard line stance against women in church leadership. So why the sudden bout of silence on such a nice big juicy target? It probably has something to do with the fact that Ingrid is busily setting herself up not just as an authority within a church, but as an authority over many churches.

So there it is. If you’re an ODM its ok to take a completely anti-scriptural view of alcohol, yet ignore what is a much stronger case against female leadership, all because you happen to have a big female voice on your team.

Turns out sola scriptura is an ODM punchline.

Much has been said here about the misuse of logic, vitriol, over the top hyperbole, and downright misinformation of the ODM’s.  Quite frankly it has been well deserved and accurate.

Many times a post or comment has been written that makes comparisons between ODM’s and clanging cymbals, pharisees, legalists, and blockers of doors.  Again well deserved and accurate.

A little while back Joe Martino wrote a post about “Fruit”and said that this is the litmus test for whether or not he’s going to believe what you are saying.  He essentially said that all the bible verses in the world aren’t going to convince him if you don’t have the evidence of “fruit” in your life.  Predictabley the ODM’s swooped in and accused Joe of denying the Bible.  Which, quite honestly, only reinforced the point Joe was making.

So as a new contributor here I wanted to deal with a question that I have been rolling around in my mind for months.

Do the watch-doggies have Joy?

I mean this as a serious question. My first encounter with an ODM, and what eventually led me to .info, was when Ken Silva commented on a friends blog.  The furthest thing from my mind was”That guy has the joy of the Lord”. This was further reinforced when I was introduced to Ingrid, Team Pyro, Dwayna, and a whole slew of commenter’s.  Where is the Joy?

side note: Before the ol’ “You do it too” is thrown out I would encourage anyone to visit the personal blogs of the contributors of this site. We have it. I promise you!

Again this is a serious question. When the world visits your blogs is the Joy you have in the Lord evident? Furthermore; I would ask that in your passion to defend the Lord have you considered what your representation of the Lord looks like to the world? 

Joyful?  Maybe! But I certainly don’t see it.

I think that CRN is having a mild case of schizophrenia. They recently posted an article on the danger of moralism. Upon reading it, I was first frustrated with this quote from MacArthur

So on the one hand, we are called to the exposition of scripture, explaining the Bible verse by verse, book by book.

Um, where exactly are we called to expository preaching of scripture, going line by line through the book? But I digress. The rest of the quote is great, discussing the dangers of legislating morality through the government. People are saved and changed by the Holy Spirit, not George W Bush. The article ends with this paragraph

And in a related issue here is the link to a message by Phil Johnson that “addresses the controversy that exists between the ministry of Dr. John MacArthur and that of Dr. James Dobson (Focus on the Family), on the issue of preaching the gospel to change the wickedness of man versus using political legislation to accomplish that end.”

Yes, you are reading this right… from the website that calls for petitions against gay marriage, calling your senator to have the ten commandments put back into court houses, berating politicians for not legislating the scriptures, comes this. So which is it CRN? Are we supposed to flee from the dangers of legislating morality? Or are we supposed to get a petition going to make sure that Genesis is the only creation theory taught in schools? Or maybe we just change our views every time Johnny Mac opens his mouth.