CRN.Info and Analysis

This is a quote from a CRN article on submitting to authority

Our Christianity does not give us the right to rebel against our superiors in the social structure no matter how unfair or harsh the conditions are.

I wonder if this would mean that we should submit to the authority of pastors who used a more purpose driven model in their communities. Or does all this submission mumbo-jumbo take a backseat to blogs that go on and one about the incompetency and ignorance of those we were once submitted to. Funny how submission flies out the door when we find ourselves in harsh conditions (translation: submission only happens when I agree with the authority).

When the church becomes a stench in the nostrils of the unsaved, not because of the gospel, but because of lousy manners and uncouth behavior, it’s time to pull the plug on these farcical churches and admit it’s a joke. When Christ is really at the forefront of our lives and ministries, the neighbors will be grateful to have our churches in their neighborhoods. [links added]

amen.

It has frustrated many of the authors on this site for quite some time how some people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts including but not limited to the flow of logic, logical fallacies, and literary devices (i.e. simile, metaphor, irony, etc.).  Now, to be fair, most of us missunderstand, or completely miss, the use of some of these some of the time.  Also to be fair, not all of us are as good at utilizing some of the terms and/or actually using the techniques as others.

I have a college education.  I’m also in graduate school.  When I’ve had good sleep and healthy food, I’m a fair writer, but I often have to look up terms and think through many of the things listed above.  When classes start again this fall, I’m sure I’ll be on Wikepedia every other hour looking up something I learned years ago (or never caught onto when I should have).  There may be times when all of us feel superior to another because they don’t understand what to us seems so obvious.  We do need to watch out for such times.  But most of the time, the authors here do not talk about and use the terms of logic and literary devices to degrade others.

Let us look for the best in each other and seek to better understand what those who disagree with us are saying.

As a former military man (Army, 11 Bravo, 25th Infantry Division) I am accustomed to and familiar with military operations and language. So when people start throwing out analogies to war with their Christian walk I’m left wondering if they really know what the “cost” is. Often I’m left wondering if I know what the real cost is. I’ve never been in an actually war, conflict, or skirmish. The closest that I could get was in simulations of war. Lots and lots of simulations.

My drill sergeants were seasoned, decorated, veterans. They had tasted the battle, they saw first hand what the front lines were like. One of my drill sergeants, a mountain of man, often said “Gentleman, I have seen war first hand, I’ve looked into the eyes of men dying in the field, nothing we do can prepare you for that. But you, if your time should come, remember your training and do what you know”

We did a lot of simulations. This tactic, that tactic, and yet some more tactics. Drill, Drill, Drill. It really became instinctive, like breathing. On our last week of basic training we do a little exercise called “Field Training Exercise” or FTX for short. It is a week of all out battle with other platoons. Each platoon is given an opportunity to defend and attack a perimeter. It is imperative that during this training each man does his specific task otherwise the whole platoon would be in jeopardy.

On our second night of FTX we were being attacked from our south perimeter, it was a heavy fire fight that lasted for about 2 hours. Being on the north perimeter my task, as was the task of everyone that was “dug” in, was to defend the north perimeter regardless of what was happening anywhere else on the perimeter. Otherwise we would become vulnerable from multiple positions.

Throughout our training there were several guys, who being former R.O.T.C., felt the need to always prove themselves worthy and share how much they knew and how valuable they were. Unfortunately they weren’t well received by the others in the platoon. In fact they were shunned. Not because they were “know it alls” but because they had a unique way of making the rest of us feel like crap and getting us “dropped” (dropped= a tool drill sergeants have to make you do push-ups, flutter kicks, paratroopers, down-ups, or front leaning position until your arms fall off. Usually used when some R.O.T.C. guy corrects the drill sergeant) all the time. As misfortune would have it, for FTX, my “hole buddy” and I were “dug” in with both of these guys at our 11.

About 30 minutes into the firefight my R.O.T.C. friends decide that they’re going to leave their position and make the 1/2 mile trek across the perimeter to assist on the south side fire fight. Which in turn leaves a gaping hole in our perimeter. Within a matter of an hour or so our whole platoon is over run because we had been flanked to the north and could not defend our position. Everyone in our simulation died. Except for the two R.O.T.C. guys who were found in the middle of the perimeter sitting back to back with their weapons at the ready.

On night four of our FTX the same scenario happened, attacked to the south but “dug” in on the north. Immediately one of our R.O.T.C. friends gets out of his hole and starts to head to the south. Almost simultaneously; me, my “hole” buddy, and the other R.O.T.C. guy take aim and shoot our wandering friend. Dismayed he asks “Why would you shoot someone from your own platoon” to which my “hole” buddy responds “Your better to us dead than alive. Your a liability and I would rather have you die and save the whole platoon than the other way around.” We won our “battle” that night. Maybe it was the experience from before that helped or maybe it was because we chose to do what was in the best interest of everybody in our platoon. Certainly the possibility exists that it was multiple reasons.

So what does this mean for us? Can I suggest that when it comes to the spiritual battle that we are all in; we as Christians need to stay in our “positions” and trust that those on the other side of the perimeter will put into action that which they were trained to do. Otherwise you may get shot at from people who are supposed to be on your side. All because you’ve become a liability and are more harmful than helpful to the cause.

Ingrid wrote a very touching piece on adoption, sharing some of her own personal experience on the subject. It really had a beautiful message for her readers.

BUT THEN…

Pastor-Teacher Ken Silva decided to tack this headline onto it and use it for his own agenda. Talk about taking something meant for good and using it for selfish gain.

A side of the so-called “ODMs” that hunters of heresy hunters, say like a Richard Abanes, might wish you wouldn’t see.

That’s all I have to say. You be the judge on motives, intentions and whether or not this sounds like pastoral behavior to you.

With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. - Revelation 17:2

There you have it folks! Revelation 17:2 has called out Rick Warren’s political show down between Barak and McCain. The great prophesies of the end times are being fulfilled, and the final pages of history are finally being revealed! I am so glad I recently purchased my license plate frame letting everyone know that “in case of rapture, this car will be unmanned.” At least the guy behind me will have had fair warning.

Two serious thoughts…

First off, I find it extremely odd that CRN just bashed Bell for loose interpretation of the scriptures and suggesting that cultural context must be looked at before making conclusions on biblical interpretation. Here is a pastor that interprets revelation via sermon and video to show that Saddleback is apostate because of the political connection. If that isn’t loose handling of the Word of God, I don’t know what is. This is a perfect example of isegesis — inserting one’s agenda and preconceived notions into the text. Who’s the one that should be accused of bad exegesis?

Lastly, the ODMs are constantly harping on the fact that seeker sensitive churches never give real meat to their congregation. They just give good advise and stick some scripture in here and there. There is no meat and no spiritual substance to what is being given to the people. But now I am confused. Here Pastor Jamey Day preaches on how evil Saddleback is from the Sunday morning pulpit. I mean, this whole thing was a huge hit piece on a church and pastor that is 2,631 miles away from them, and the ODMs post it on their blog! Did the congregation walk out saying, “Man! That was some amazing meat from the Word today. I am so glad to know that Revelation 17 shows how apostate Saddleback is, and that I should never get involved with purpose driven. I would never have known how much the Lord detests Rick Warren.” Mr Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line two.

Now, I will say this for those who will try to make excuses for the whole thing… Yes, the pastor did not mention Rick Warren or Saddleback by name. However, the examples he used were overtly pointed to them. Also, it appears that the video was posted under the Watcher’s Lamp YouTube account. So, it seems that the video was not made by Grace Fellowship of Chester Virginia. However, the principles remain the same

From the Fundamental Baptist Information Service

NEED SOME URGENT HELP FROM YOU PASTORS ABOUT GIRL AND PANTS

I have a problem that you can help me with. All I ask is that you write and let me know what you would say to the following situation. It might even sound humorous to you, but I can assure you that it is a serious matter.

There is a teenage girl in a church. The church teaches that pants are not the most appropriate and modest attire for women. The girl is from a very poor family (six people living in one room), but she was the first member of her family to come to Christ about three years ago.

She has been growing in the Lord and is faithful to church and prayer meetings. Recently she got a scholarship to a school that requires the female students to wear lose pants. Though someone from the church approached the school leaders and asked them to make an exception for her, they refused. Since the girl has decided to attend the school anyway, the church won’t allow her to teach Sunday School anymore because she will no longer meet the standards for workers.

But there is a prominent person in the church who is not content with this. He thinks she should be disciplined after the fashion of 1 Corinthians 5 and she should not be allowed to take the Lord’s Supper.

What do you think?

The more pastors I can hear from on this, the better.

Thank you!

In Christ,
Brother Cloud

This situation literally made me sick to my stomach and boiling angry. I commend Ingrid for her thoughts on this post. I find it so ironic that contemporary/post-modern churches are criticized for being focused on external and futile elements in church (lighting, projection systems, coffee bars, etc.). However, in my experience, it is the traditional churches that are obsessed with the externals in the congregation. I dare someone in a traditional church to take away the choir ropes — heck, change the choir robe colors — and see what happens. Have the pastor dress in his everyday clothes and see how many people leave. Change the color of the carpet and watch the people scatter like ants.

Last week Erwin MaManus was doing talk on diligence, and I knew that one of my non-believing neighbors would really connect with the subject. I went down and invited him to come, and he immediately said “I can’t afford it right now.” Puzzled at his response, I told him that it was free and that I didn’t want him to even think about giving money in the offering that day. He began to tell me how he had walked to a church when he was 16 the Sunday after his parents got a divorce. He was disparate for answers during that time. After a great service, he was walking out when the pastor stopped him at the door to greet him. The pastor said “We are so glad to have you as a guest, son.” He chuckled and then said, “How bout you dress up a bit next time for our Lord.” He came from a very poor family and all he had was jeans and t-shirts. He has been afraid to step into church since.

Now, everyone might not have that dramatic of an experience, but there is a disgusting religious spirit that is focused on the externals in many “traditional” churches.

P.S. I had a prayer session this morning, and the LORD convicted me about putting titles on my posts. I repent of my untitled ways and return to the straight and narrow.

Apparently Ken Silva has taken it upon himself to exegete Rob Bell and give the world a packaged and opinionated systematic theology of the man. Apparently there has been a growing demand for this, but Silva has been hindered “due to a lack of financial support.” But, he found some time and cash to begin the series with Bell’s belief on The Bible.

Now, many of us know the research methods that are used at CRN and Apprising. It basically consists of google-ing the name of a guy the author already doesn’t like, and finding a snippet from an interview or book that fits the author’s preconceived notions. Here is a classic example of Silva attempting to show how heretical Bell is by using this quote from an interview

The Bible itself, he writes, is a book that constantly must be wrestled with and re-interpreted. He dismisses claims that “Scripture alone” will answer all questions. Bible interpretation is colored by historical context, the reader’s bias and current realities, he says. The more you study the Bible, the more questions it raises.

“It is not possible to simply do what the Bible says,” Bell writes.

ok, now here are the important missing pieces of the quote that give the context

The Bible itself, he writes, is a book that constantly must be wrestled with and re-interpreted. He dismisses claims that “Scripture alone” will answer all questions. Bible interpretation is colored by historical context, the reader’s bias and current realities, he says. The more you study the Bible, the more questions it raises.
“It is not possible to simply do what the Bible says,” Bell writes. “We must first make decisions about what it means at this time, in this place, for these people.”
Noting the Bible has been used to defend slavery and mistreat women, he writes, “sometimes when I hear people quote the Bible, I just want to throw up.”

I know we have been over this before, but one of the very first things you learn in theological training is to look at historical context for scripture, and adjust interpretation accordingly. I mean, the same guys who get mad at Bell for talking about historical context would probably thing twice when it came to verses like “Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” All those polyester/cotton blend suits are making the preacher man sin! But, this is not important when bashing your man on the internet.

This was just one example of how the ODMs continue their battles at all costs, against all rational thought. The end goal is not sola dei gloria… it’s sola smear your enemies in the mud.

One common marketing ploy is the “Bait and Switch.” The strategy is simple. Bait the consumer with an attractive deal then switch them to a higher priced, more profitable item. For example, an appliance store may offer a sale on a certain model but only have a couple in their store. When the consumer comes through the door looking for the bait, they are informed it is sold-out, but an alternative (switch) is offered. This tactic is not limited to sleazy retailers.

CRN has posted an article titled Christian Extremism. It is a repost of another blog – a blog with which I am unfamiliar. Anyway, the post(s) baits with a decades old quote from J. Vernon McGee in which he predicts that true believers in America will eventually have to go underground. Furthermore, McGee “predicted” that part of the reason for this would be attacks on true believers from mainstream denominational churches. This expectation is not surprising given the context in which McGee lived and ministered. It’s also no surprise that ODM sites see this “prophecy” being fulfilled in their blog-time. Funny though – the article then goes on to point out the same old list of names (i.e. - Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Richard Foster, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Doug Pagitt, Erwin McManus, Leonard Sweet, Robert Schuller and Brian McLaren) and the same old list of objections.

Bait: a predictive quote from a saintly radio preacher and author from the recent past… a quote which seems to have come to fulfillment.

Switch: change “mainline denominations” to “evangelical ‘leaders’” and change “attack true believers” to “advance methods we don’t like.”

Bait and Switch.

Here is the list of “attacks” (since this was the verb used by McGee, I will use it too, to show the self-evident silliness of this B&S). [Given the over-sensitivity of some ODM’s, I will add that B&S is shorthand for "Bait and Switch."]

They seek to establish Christ’s kingdom on earth.
They speak of a “return to Eden”.
They espouse a man-centered gospel message.
They often speak of “new frontiers”, “changing times”, “new spirituality”.
They often recommend mystical, occultic practices such as lecto divinia, prayer centering, breath prayers, the labyrinth, meditation, and yoga.

RE: Christ’s Kingdom - short of trying to legislate a theodicy – isn’t this the role of the church… to strive to fulfill the very model prayer of Christ?

RE: Return to Eden – since no context was given, how can you address this accusation other than to say – sounds like Revelation 21 and 22. So it’s easily a biblical allusion.

RE: Man-centered Gospel - is there a more oft-used cliché by the ODM’s? From Christ’s POV the Gospel is man-centered… and so is anything they don’t like.

This list of “attacks” is followed by a list of quotes from the new “Mainstream Denominational Churches.” You can follow the link if you like. Some of the quotes are from people I am familiar with, some are unfamiliar. I concur some have gone too far, others are advocating a practice that is perfectly biblical.

What is constant is the fact that this article, as do most of the ODM type, must rip the quotes out of context and pour into them meanings that the author never intended. This latter fact is comical given the ODM mantra that post-moderns are guilty of making things mean whatever they want… shades of a conversation between the pot and the kettle.

So – bottom line: CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. They may have had some valid points to make if their tactics were more honest and their ability to discern more refined. As it is they once again lump a bunch of people together, label them, and then attack. What makes this attempt more egregious is the use of J. Vernon McGee… it’s not often I am offended on behalf of the bait.

It has become very apparent over these last few days that there are deeply entrenched camps within the Christian world. If you didn’t already know this it should have been obvious with the reaction over recent issues. Not looking to rehash any of that. But I am going to pose a few questions and thoughts that I hope would help all of us.

In the dialog of debate it is very common for both sides to get passionate. Religion strikes to the core of what most of us hold dear. So obviously when topics involving our strongest convictions get discussed we rally to our cause. Which is a good thing! I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m always leery of someone who waffles. In certain areas of my life I waffle for fear of upsetting the apple cart. It is the part of me that I most detest but not for the reason many would think. I wish in certain areas I would choose a hill to die on.

During the dialog of recent debate everything from “you’re unregenerate” to “repent and get saved” got thrown around with impunity. These are phrases that really, again, strike at many of our deepest held convictions. Both sides were guilty. I was guilty, maybe not in word, but certainly in thought. It was often in the flurry of comments when I most desperately wanted my way. And that’s where the spiritual battle was lost. It’s never about “my way” and the only “hill to die” on is Golgotha.

Recently I had a conversation with my daughters about us adopting a child. Wanting to gauge where my kids were at I asked them both “What would you think?”. My youngest (6) looked up from lunch and said “I would love someone else to play with”. My oldest (9) looked over at her sister with a grimaced look and then back to me and said “I don’t want to hear anybody else call you Daddy or tell you that they love you”. Isn’t this the way we are in our relationship with God. We sometimes get very selfish with who we allow to interact with our Father. We stubbornly close the door and say “You don’t know how to love him like I do. You’re not allowed in. I don’t want to share him.” I wonder how much we miss out on by not allowing others to show us the richness of their relationship.

In my life I’ve learned things in the most unlikely of situations. With people I absolutely despised I learned to give grace. With people who frustrated me beyond pale I learned patience. With people who made me fearful I learned trust. I suspect that if we all evaluated what God used to craft us we would have similar stories. So in the dialog of debate let’s not assume that the person on the other side of the internet connection is not being used by God to form us.

What if…

We committed to trusting that God was really in control of all of this? Even the stuff we don’t like.

We committed to learning before teaching? Even with the stuff we think is wrong.

We committed to praying before preaching? Even when someone slams our opinion.

We committed to unity before critique? Even when we think their is no common ground between us.

Some may say this is another slick way of saying “Can’t we all just get along?”. To which I respond “Yep”. In scripture disunity was one of things that characterized being far from God and was proof that the enemy was winning. I suspect the world is the watching.

Grace and Peace.