“While those who wielded the Constantinian sword throughout history undoubtedly convinced themselves they were wielding the sword in love–this is a common self-delusion among religious power brokers–lording over, torturing, and killing people does not communicate their unsurpassable worth to them; it is not loving….One wonders why no one in church history as ever been considered a heretic for being unloving. People were anathematized and often tortured and killed for disagreeing on matters of doctrine or on the authority of the church. But no one on record has ever been so much as rebuked for not loving as Christ loved. Yet if love is to be placed above all other considerations, if nothing has any value apart from love, and if the only thing that matters is faith working in love, how is it that possessing Christlike love has never been considered the central test of orthodoxy? How is it that those who tortured and burned heretics were not themselves considered heretics for doing so? Was this not heresy of the worst sort? How is it that those who perpetuated such things were not only deemed heretics but often were (and yet are) held up as heroes of the faith?”

Greg Boyd – The Myth of a Christian Nation

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72 Comments(+Add)

1   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

Wow! Just wow!

I forgot about that line in the book…so good.

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

May I comment on this one? :)

In eternity, it just may be that Christianity mixed with nationalism will be uncovered as every bit a heresy as the “social gospel”. I used to be blind to this, but it has been made clear to me that America is every bit as wicked as any country on earth – no more and no less.

God does not deal with countries at this time, and to descibe the “birth” of America in terms of divine favor is idolatry. To murder over land is against all the teachings of Christ Himself. “But who would have stopped Hitler if we did not?” is an example of what nationalists offer as a conundrum meant to justify murder.

To parse the words “murder” and “kill” as somehow different, one being God’s will and one being sin, is a treatise in twisting the Scriptures that is every bit as heretical as any emergent. And are we to leave obedience to the Scriptures when we cannot see any other way to “combat” evil?? These “orthodox” Bible thumpers are every bit as disobedient to the Scriptures as Spencer Burke, except that Burke probably does not approve of murder.

What difference is their between a gay pacifist and a heterosexual murderer?

While some verbally and energetically defend doctrines like the 24 hour creation day, which is nothing but doctrinal dung, they embrace wholesale murder based upon land, national security, and political power. And then they embrace a president who says that the divine mandate is the spread of democracy, when in fact democracy is every bit as carnal as any other human form of government.

And people like Ingrid, who eviscerates anyone who is pro-choice regardless if they are lost or saved, prints an article about Obama’s lost status written by a pro-choice columnist. Why? It is all nationalism void of redemption and the gospel. And Greg Boyd expounds obvious truth about the sin of nationalism but all the ODMs can hear is his “open theism”.

Open theism never murdered one person, but nationalism has more blood on its hands than all the aborted babies. Digest that little footnote. Being pro-life is such an easy fortress, but seeing nationalism for what it is may cost you dearly – even in the church. Not many pat you on the back when you refuse to pledge allegience to the flag, and when you refuse to vote, and when you refuse to speak evil of Obama, or when you refuse to kill, or when you hate the death penalty; you usually will not receive acolades for those.

But if you are pro-life you will be applauded, even when you are not pro- Miley Cyrus’ life, or Rosie O’Donnel’s life, or Barak Obama’s life, or Ted Kennedy’s life. You are a hero if you are pre-birth pro-life, even if you are a post-birth murderer.

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

And if anyone desires some reference for my observations, please feel free to visit this museum of nationalistic idolatry which is bereft of any and all gospel truths.

Those who are soldiers of a culture war are in fact murdering the gospel.

4   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

May I comment on this one?

The rhetorical question of the century!

5   Jerry    http://www.dongoldfish.wordpress.com
September 8th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

Excellent quote Phil. I’m gonna have to run right out and buy this book. In fact, I’m reposting this at my blog. Brilliant!

6   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

How many roads must a muslim walk down
Before you see from above?
How many seas must a lost bird sail
Before she sleeps in our love?
Yes, ‘n’ how many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they’re forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

Yes, ‘n’ How many years can hatred exist
Before it’s washed to the sea?
Yes, ‘n’ how many years can some sinners exist
Before they’re prayed to be free?
Yes, ‘n’ how many times can a man turn his head,
and Pretend that he just doesn’t see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

Yes, ‘n’ how many times must a man look up
Before he sees redemption on high?
Yes, ‘n’ how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, ‘n’ how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?

The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

Blowin’ in the wind indeed…

7   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 8th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

Greg Boyd is a heretic if he believes in open theism, he does not believe in the God of the Bible.

Doug Pagitt is a heretic, because he does not believe that Jesus is the only way to be born- again.

Barack Obama is a president who is not a Christian, who supports the murder of babies.

I pray that the Lord will save them or that the Lord will kill them if they will not be saved, because their teaching (GB, DP) is false and brings disrepute to the Name of God. I pray the Lord will save BO or kill him so that babies will be saved as will those serving overseas in our military.

I do not pray this because I hate them, I pray this because I love God more than I love humans. I love His honor and His glory above that of any person. I do not want to see these people murdered by human hand, I pray that God will take them out so that He may receive all the glory, and that one of his supposed followers who would murder (I believe it is hypocritical to kill an abortion doctor because you are pro-life). God is sovereign, it is up to him.

BTW, I do not pray for this to happen by name. I simply pray that all the enemies of God would be destroyed.

Back to the OP
I agree that Christianity should have nothing to do with the government. I think anytime that religion becomes intertwined with the government and human nature that the grab for the power of God is on and man’s pride and sinful nature can get in the way.

Do I believe in manifest destiny? Not in the way that it is taught. I believe God sovereignly ordained every nation, good leaders and bad leaders alike.

I believe Historical Catholicism and modern Islam are examples of false religion (one in the name of Christ) which blend with government and murder in the name of God. Some have accused Calvin of the same thing, and to the extent that his role was within the state run church, his power only extended as far as excommunication, though he did hold influence over the judgement of criminals he could not actually murder anyone. There was an incident where the libertines committed arson and attempted to murder some frenchmen, some of whom were Calvin’s followers, and they were put to death, not because they were enemies of Calvin but because they were arsonists and murderers. In the case of Servatus, he was a heretic, pursued both by the inquisition (Catholic) and by the government run by the libertines in Switzerland. Once he was declared a heretic by the Government/Church there, and was to be burned alive, Calvin pleaded for mercy to be shown in terms of beheading, which was a much quicker death. To accuse Calvin of murder is disengenuous at best, and a lie at worst.

Nobody becomes a Christian at the point of a sword, though some have converted to Islam and Catholicism in that way. True Christianity is the power of the grace of God to convert people, no government or sword needed.

8   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 8th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

Greg Boyd is a heretic if he believes in open theism, he does not believe in the God of the Bible.

And if that’s what you believe, it’s not worth discussing any more with you. All you have to do is read any of Boyd’s books, or even look at his blog for that matter, and you will soon realize he not only believes in the God of the Bible but he is doing his best to serve Him faithfully.

I suppose when you can’t refute someone’s argument with logic or with Scripture, the easiest thing to do is label him a heretic.

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

Open theisim = the unpardodonable sin.

:roll:

What about the sin of limited atonement?

10   corey    
September 8th, 2009 at 5:52 pm

Salvation =
…Repent of your sins
…Place faith in Jesus for redemption of sins
…Believe that God knows every detail of the future
…Refuse to practice meditation, lectio divina, or anything else that might be somehow affiliated with some other religion
…Vote Republican


Make sure you connect all the dots or I hope you die.

11   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

I will never get the collosal deal about open theism. It’s just another perspective to understand God and the difference between orchestration and intervention, right? Why does that eliminate a person from salvation?

Who fully understands that aspect of the infinite God? Does that interfere with the understanding of the atonement and salvation by faith? Who then is morelikely to be saved:

* A gay Calvinist.

* A heterosexual open theist?

Answer: Only God knows for sure, and He isn’t telling PB. :cool:

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 5:58 pm

corey – Also:

Never find men even remotely attractive.

For the record, I find men repulsive and unappealling. (Seinfield)

13   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

Salvation =
…Repent of your sins
…Place faith in Jesus for redemption of sins
…Believe that God knows every detail of the future
…Refuse to practice meditation, lectio divina, or anything else that might be somehow affiliated with some other religion
…Vote Republican
…Never pray for Obama
…Salute the flag
…Quote Thomas Jefferson
…Hate Myley Cyrus
…Be baptized
…Embrace capitalism
…Quit smoking
…Do not curse
…Root for Notre Dame (most important)

14   John Hughes    
September 8th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Pastorboy,

We are in the covenant of grace, not the covenant of the law. As Christians we are to love our enemies, bless those who curse us and persecute us and return good for evil.

We are not King David or any OT prophet or saint. It is horrendous and sickening IMO for a Christian to pray for the death of anyone or that God’s enemies be smitten in this Age of Grace. We are to pray for the lost’s conversion in regards to their soul or at most that their plans be confounded regarding their ungodly actions. We are to pray that God will have mercy on them and save them. Not that He will smite them. Again, what a horrible thing to pray for. Do you or I not deserve hell just as much as Mr. Obama? How can you love Mr. Obama as we are commanded and pray for his death and eternal damnation? And where would God receive more glory: in the conversion of Obama or in his death?

You cannot compound covenants. Again, how horrible. I am appalled at this attitude.

15   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

“compound covenants”

Great words, John.

17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

16   opus    
September 8th, 2009 at 6:33 pm

John Chisam,
You are a pharisee of the highest order. Anyone who knows the depth of thier own depravity,but yet knows how undeserved Gods grace is should be repulsed by Johns vomitage in the first part of his comment.Feh,it makes me sick to think you are teaching this to your congregation or children.

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

I will die on the hill of the grace of God in Christ Jesus until someone can show me a professing believer who doesn’t sin. We are great grace talkers, but when it comes to extending its power we shrink like a little girl in a room filled with dignitaries.

It is the highest convolution to measure God’s grace through the prism of law.

18   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

“vomitage”

I love it!! :lol:

19   corey    
September 8th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

…Do not use people’s proper names against their will

Sorry, opus, I guess you’re out

20   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

opus – You have birthed new words in me.

* Doctrinal spewage
* Fecal words (sorry)
* Wound inflicting words
* Oozing pride
* Doctrinal pestilence
* Violent self righetousness

Thank you, opus. :)

21   opus    
September 8th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

Rick ,I am glad you liked it.Its funny you should mention “fecal words” ,at work we have what is known as “fecal thinking” which is not good and can cause accidents.

22   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

* Verbal flatulence…it stinks but lack substance.

23   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 8th, 2009 at 10:57 pm

* Doctrinal incontinence: it just never stops

* Charitable expectorant: it comes from the mouth, not the heart

* Redemptive Alzheimer’s: forgetting how much God forgave you

* Tactile rejection: avoiding contact with sinners

* Coronary embolism: a blockage of the spiritual heart

* Spiritual myopia: you can only see those around you

24   M.G.    
September 9th, 2009 at 12:37 am

Re:3

The CrossTalk blog is pretty much off the rails.

I must say, though, that I love the website’s tag line, “The truth is out there.”

While the X-Files reference is by no means intentional (or is it?), I must say it’s quite apt. Ironic.

25   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 4:36 am

The President just cannot win. Here the crosstalk blog criticizes him for encouraging students to stay in school because they have enough money to have their kids in either private scholl or home school.

This is especially duplicitous. Notice these phrases:

* Why haven’t evangelicals not followed the examples of Catholics and Lutherans in establishing Christian day schools?

* Why is the idea of our children being “salt and light” in the public schools a dangerous one?

The remnant continues to shrink while the rules continue to grow.

26   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 7:03 am

* What kind of love tells sinners they are lost while knowing full well only .01 of the sinners you are addressing were “chosen” by God to be saved?

* What kind of love demeans people?

* What kind of love divides people into political categories?

* What kind of love exposes the sins of others?

* What kind of love is tearless over lost sinners?

* What kind of love relishes in castigating the sins in which you do not struggle?

* What kind of love murders people over doctrine?

* What kind of love hates Jews?

————

Here is a list of things that we can do without the love of God and still be His servant:

?

27   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 8:20 am

Greg Boyd is a heretic if he believes in open theism, he does not believe in the God of the Bible.
And if that’s what you believe, it’s not worth discussing any more with you. All you have to do is read any of Boyd’s books, or even look at his blog for that matter, and you will soon realize he not only believes in the God of the Bible but he is doing his best to serve Him faithfully.
I suppose when you can’t refute someone’s argument with logic or with Scripture, the easiest thing to do is label him a heretic.

Open Theism is heresy. If Greg Boyd believes that God does not have knowledge over, control over all things at all times, including wind storms in Minneapolis, you are a false teacher.

Exodus 4:21, “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”
See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh’s heart.
Exodus 8:32, “But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.”
Exodus 14:17, “And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.”
Gen. 18:14, “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.”
Psalm 115:3, “But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.”
Psalm 135:6, “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.”
Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;”
Jer. 32:27, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?”
Dan. 4:35, “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’”
Matt. 19:26, “And looking upon them Jesus said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Luke 1:37, “For nothing will be impossible with God.”
Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”
Matt. 5:45, “in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Matt. 6:26, “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?”
Matt. 6:30, “But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith?”
Matt. 10:29, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.”
Matt. 10:30, “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”
Psalm 47:1-4, “O Clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy. 2For the Lord Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. 3He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. 4Hchooses our inheritance for us, The glory of Jacob whom He loves.”
Psalm 33:10, “The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.”
Gen. 4:25, “And Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, “God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel; for Cain killed him.”
Deut. 10:22, “Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.”
Ruth 4:13, “So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son.”
Exodus 21:12, “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13“But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.”
James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.”
Lam. 3:37-38, “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?”
Exodus 4:11, “And the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?”
Deut. 32:39, “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Sam. 2:6-7, “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.”
Ecc. 7:13-17, “Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider— God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him.”
Isaiah 45:5-7, “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.”
Lam. 3:37-38, “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?”
Amos 3:6-7, “If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?”
Deut. 2:30, “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.”
2 Chron. 25:20, “But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.”
Isaiah 6:10, “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.”
Rom. 9:18, “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”

I hope that is enough scripture on the Sovereignty of God. If you need more, I will work on it. Open Theism is HERESY.

28   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 8:56 am

Here is a list of things that we can do without the love of God and still be His servant:

I have a novel idea…or at least I think it is.
Why don’t we live as friends of God and servants of everyone else?

29   Jerry    http://www.dongoldfish.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 9:03 am

Did anyone see this from Piper?

I’ve Read the President’s Speech: Amazing

HT: imonk who posted this on his Facebook profile.

30   Jerry    http://www.dongoldfish.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 9:08 am

#8: If I owned this blog I would ban you for life for such stupidity. That has to be the worst comment you have ever left here. I’m not going to apologize for calling that comment what it is: Shit.

Here’s how the church in Acts prayed: “Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to HEAL and PERFORM SIGNS AND WONDERS through the NAME OF YOUR HOLY SERVANT JESUS.”

Not one word of, Lord Destroy your enemies.

You digustipate me.

31   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 9:26 am

#31
You are so full of grace, Jerry. I want to emulate that grace…

Look, There are examples throughout the New Testament (as well as Old…Jesus wrote that one also..)where people pray for God to take vengeance on HIS enemies for HIS glory.

If I am praying for God to destroy somebody because my pride has been hurt or whatever…I have a real problem. But if I am praying in general for God to destroy his enemies or save them, I believe I am following scripture.

What about Alexander the silversmith? The Pharisees (woe to you)? The young man who slept with his mother? (1 Corinthians 5) I could go on….and on….

And agin, the prayer is out of a love for God first…and for His glory….and I would hope they would be saved instead of destroyed….but whatever will bring God the glory.

32   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 9:40 am

John you can’t demonstrate from Scripture that something you call ‘open theism’ is a heresy. Nor, furthermore, can you demonstrate that God says we should pray death for those who preach it or believe it or live their lives because of it. You are on a slippery slope John because at some point anything that you dislike or disagree with becomes a heresy that is worthy of death or at least prayers for death and destruction.

I don’t even have words to describe about deluded you appear to be.

And your comment #32–? Not one of those cases is an example of a prayer being prayed for God to ‘destroy his enemies.’ Not one. Even your example of the ‘young man who slept with his mother’…did you read the rest of the story where Paul says ‘welcome him back, restore him’? Or did you conveniently forget that part of the Bible?

Time to grow up John. This caricature of God you have created is perverted at best and a lie at worst.

33   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 9:52 am

It’s interesting that Greg Boyd is labeled a heretic for being an open theist. When you read his writings, and more importantly, when you hear him preach, he is consumed with the glory of God. In the purest sense of the definition, I do not believe Greg Boyd is an open theist. He is trying to articulate, as clearly as anyone can, the tight-rope in the scriptures that is stretched between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility.

I am grateful for his contribution to the kingdom of God.

34   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 9:56 am

Not one of those cases is an example of a prayer being prayed for God to ‘destroy his enemies.’ Not one. Even your example of the ‘young man who slept with his mother’…did you read the rest of the story where Paul says ‘welcome him back, restore him’? Or did you conveniently forget that part of the Bible?

Jerry’s Quote about my quote…

And agin, the prayer is out of a love for God first…and for His glory….and I would hope they would be saved instead of destroyed….but whatever will bring God the glory.

The scripture?

1 Corinthians 5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2 And y you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though a absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Paul’s prayer actually is that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord…Paul seems to be praying if not for his death for the destruction of his flesh, so that he might come to repentance, so that his spirit may be saved.

Seems that praying for brain cancer (which I am not) for Obama may be scripturally supported…just sayin..

35   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Open Theism is heresy. If Greg Boyd believes that God does not have knowledge over, control over all things at all times, including wind storms in Minneapolis, you are a false teacher.

I love it when PB shows he knows NOTHING of what he is talking about… what a great example of his total ignorance of a topic, a person, and what a heresy is! LOL!

Thanks for the laugh PB… missed again by a mile… or two… nope by the moon…nope out of this galaxy!

ROTFLMBO!

iggy

36   corey    
September 9th, 2009 at 10:01 am

I would say Calvinism is closer to heresy than open theism…

A god who creates evil???
A god who creates people who have no chance for salvation in order to destroy them, which somehow brings this god glory???
A god who continually inflicts suffering upon the earth for some greater purpose that we’ll never know or understand???

Sorry…That’s not the God of scripture either. It’s pretty easy to make the Bible say what you want when you conveniently leave out the verses that don’t fit your paradigm.

Interestingly, PB, if you’ve ever read Boyd’s “God of the Possible” (which I know you haven’t because you never actually read those you disagree with) you would find a reasoned, biblical argument including an entire large section where he wrestles with virtually all of those passages that you just mentioned. (Unlike Calvinists who simply ignore or disregard passages that imply some degree of openness to the future).

37   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 10:40 am

Who here is a Calvinist?

I am just a Christian which takes the Bible literally where it is literal. I read it from a grammatical, historical perspective. I do not apply a trajectory hermeneutic, or intepret it from a kingdom point of view. The Bible seems very clear that God is sovereign over all, that he foreknew and predestined those who would be saved…

I think you have a problem with the God of the Bible and prefer a God which can be bent and controlled rather than a God who is in control I can understand why you like Greg Boyd, Brian McLaren, and Gary Boyd. It is also no surprise that you like the Shack.

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 10:54 am

“I would say Calvinism is closer to heresy than open theism…”

Corey – The student is quickly becoming the teacher!!

Jerry – I agree with your assessment while noticing it is always unnecessary to resort to coarse language.

“If Greg Boyd believes that God does not have knowledge over, control over all things at all times, including wind storms in Minneapolis, you are a false teacher.”

A false and misleading statement. It also limits a limitless God. God has control over everything, including refusing to control everything, as observed by His allowing goofy and false thread comments. :cool:

If your child wrote a paper stating that George Washington was gay, would you allow him to read it? Well God seems to allow many statements much more grevious than that. A little open theism never hurt anyone. :lol:

BTW – To discuss the mind of God like we have it down to a scientific equation is rather supercilious and just reveals a man made god.

39   ncgal53    
September 9th, 2009 at 11:22 am

#32 1 Corinthians 5: 3 For absent in the body , I am present in spirit and as if present , I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, ( so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord).
I Timothy 2-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL people, for kings and all who are in high positions , that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 5: 44-45 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you: that you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: For He maketh His sun to rise on the Evil and on the Good, and sendeth rain on the Just and UNJUST.

40   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

PB,
I’m going to just ask this outright. What have you read by Greg Boyd’s pen or heard him say that has led you to the conclusion that he is an open theist and therefore a heretic?

41   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

Nathanael,

What would it matter if PB read someones writings or heard their sermon? I mean he read Rob Bell and calls him a Universalist… so he could read anyone and say anything that is not there.

42   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Iggy,
Be that as it may, I’m curious if John has listened to a single sermon or read a single chapter of one of Greg’s books.

43   pastorboy    http://riveroflifealliance.com
September 9th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

#39 the only thing I have read of Boyds is Letters from a Sceptic.

I did write if indicating I do not know if he is or not, though he identifies himself as one.

44   Thurstin    http://www.needgod.com
September 9th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

#42
Rob Bell is a Universalist, Iggy. Everyone knows that! He is also really into Eastern religions and is ashamed of the Gospel.

45   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

I heard good things about “Letters from a Skeptic.” What did you think.

I would highly recommend listening to one of his sermons.
Here’s the link to the sermon page of Woodland Hills Church.

46   corey    
September 9th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

PB, I’m praying that someday you will find freedom from the caricature of Christianity that you have found yourself in.

47   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 9th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

If you really want to know what Boyd believes, read his two academic books God at War and Satan and the Problem of Evil. His other books are good too, but these two works pretty much encompass his entire theology. I’ve read them both, along with a bunch of his other stuff, and I’ve got to say I have no doubt he take the Bible seriously and is an orthodox Christian.

Boyd was a philosophy major, so he naturally approaches theology from a philosophical and metaphysical perspective. And from those perspectives, I’ve yet to see anyone do a good job of refuting what he says. I also think he’s mostly right about Scripture. There are few points in his books where I disagree with a few minor things with his interpretation of Scripture, but they are generally not related to open theism. Actually because of reading his books, I’ve pretty much decided that I probably would fit under the label of an open theist. I think more Christians would if they actually knew what he meant by the term.

By the way, Boyd never questions God’s omnipotence. He clearly states this multiple places, and in fact he criticizes others who do such as some Process theologians. He clearly believes God is omnipotent. He just believes jn creating a universe where there are creatures who are truly free agents who have the capacity to make non-determinant choices, God limited His omnipotence to a degree.

Look at this way. Assume I give my child $100 as a gift and say he may use it completely as he wishes. Now let’s say the kid goes and spends the first $20 in a way that totally disappoints me or ticks me off. I cannot go and then take the rest of the money back. If I have the capacity to do that, then the $100 was not truly a gift. So it is with God’s granting of free will to His creation. If He truly grants free will, He cannot revoke it. So Has chosen to limit Himself. It is not an inherent limitation on His power. It’s just one He chose when He created the world. This line of thought isn’t new. It’s been talked about since the post-apostolic age.

48   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 9th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

#42
Rob Bell is a Universalist, Iggy. Everyone knows that! He is also really into Eastern religions and is ashamed of the Gospel.

This reminds me of something my mom used to say…

What’s the point of being ignorant unless you can let the whole world know?

49   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

#47
Funny, Corey, I have found myself praying the same thing for you, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Rob Bell, Greg Boyd, and others!

Wow!

Phil, I don’t care what Greg Boyd believes, I care what the Bible teaches. It does not teach that God is not control of all things at all times.

That does not necessarily make GB a heretic, but OT is heresy.

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

Come on Thurstan… I can see that the “teacher” you are under has infected your brain with hate and infused you with an inability to read and comprehend that he has…

BTW Thurstan, can you explain the difference between, Universal Atonement, Universalism, limited atonement Christian Universalism, unlimited atonement and the various degrees with in those? I doubt it…

Bell believes in unlimited atonement… which means all mankind was forgiven at the Cross… yet to be saved, one still must have a relationship with Jesus… so He is not a Universalist and most people would not even think that outside of the cesspool of teaching you are under.

51   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

Thurston… as I state to your teacher… stop bearing false witness against people… it is one of the Big Ten God gave to Moses you know… or do you not take the Bible seriously like your teacher does not?

52   nc    
September 9th, 2009 at 6:25 pm

in my experience, the open theism discussion is just a little too nuanced for the evangelical community.

boyd has consistently denied or refuted the characterizations of his position.

the sad thing is that no one seems to listen…

but then again, why would you listen if it demolishes your already dwindling sources of things to hate/be against so you can feel good about your rightness?

53   nc    
September 9th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

what i mean is…

all you’d have left is “the gays”…

54   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

“all you’d have left is “the gays”…”

Too, too funny.

55   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 9th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

Phil, I don’t care what Greg Boyd believes, I care what the Bible teaches. It does not teach that God is not control of all things at all times.

That does not necessarily make GB a heretic, but OT is heresy.

If God is in control of all things at all times, He does a pretty sucky job of a lot of the time…

Seriously, this whole spiel of “God is control” probably has probably led more people to be atheists than Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins ever did.

The Bible never paints a picture of God being all-controlling. It does present Him as being good and resisting evil, but it never presents Him as some puppet master.

But as nc has already stated, trying to argue these things with you is hardly worth the effort of typing them out…

56   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:44 pm

God is not in “control” of everything because He chooses not to be, which in and of itself, is a form of passive control. :cool:

57   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 9th, 2009 at 6:46 pm

God is not in “control” of everything because He chooses not to be, which in and of itself, is a form of passive control. :cool:

Exactly…

I don’t see why that is such a hard concept to grasp.

58   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:49 pm

I believe the ODMs do a much better job of gay hatred than open theism heresy hunting.

Stick to the gay bashing, after all, God hates them anyway. :cool:

59   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 9th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

I am going to write something and I dare God to stop me.

“Man has a free will”.

There, God was not in control of that!! :lol:

Sometimes it it necessitates such condescending goofiness just to refute some of the goofy heresies some ODMs find. Let me see, if you believe in open theism you are an heretic, but if you believe baptism saves, you are a truth warrior.

I subscribe to pirate theism. :cool:

60   Jerry    http://www.dongoldfish.wordpress.com
September 9th, 2009 at 11:59 pm

John C wrote,

“OT is heresy.”

Now, I’m not an ‘open theist’–I have read some of it and it makes little sense to me and doesn’t seem to comport with what I think Scripture teaches.

That said, can anyone find the words in the Bible, “OT is heresy”?

Can anyone find the words in the Bible, “Closed theism is orthodoxy” (I say ‘closed theism’ because that is the natural opposite of ‘open theism.’)

Can anyone show me those words? I’m not talking about a passage that has been interpreted to mean ‘closed theism,’ or one that has been interpreted to mean ‘open theism.’ I’m talking specific words. (Oh, and by the way…can anyone show me where it says that ‘all who believe in OT will be damned as heretics and all who espouse CT will necessarily be saved?’ because it seems to me that what matters, according to Scripture is faith manifesting itself in love, but I’m willing to be corrected at this point.)

Thanks. John, I’m sure you will be right on this since you seem to be THE authority on the Scripture. I’ll look forward to whatever ‘proof’ you wish you offer: Book, Chapter, Verse.

61   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 10th, 2009 at 4:31 am

What kinds of “heresy” are there? Doesn’t heresy just mean “wrong”? I personally divide heresy into two main categaories:

* Redemptive heresy (very serious)
* Non-redemptive heresy (common to all of us)

Open theism is pretty much just theological philosophy, and if it is heresy then it is the other side of the same heretical coin shared by Calvinism. One side says God has released control and knowledge while the other side says God is wearing a conductor’s hat and running a train set.

62   chris    
September 10th, 2009 at 6:45 am

I did write if indicating I do not know if he is or not, though he identifies himself as one.

And here in lies the crux of the problem, as I see it with most ODM’s.

He says he’s an Open Theist therefore I’m going to characterize it/him from limited knowledge of the subject. Whether that be characterizing the man himself or his views on whatever the theology du jour is.

In description, definition, and delineation, ODM’s get to define everything. If you said this I’m going to tell you what it actual means. If you deny my definition, I’m gonna tell you the nuance of your argument and where your wrong. If you refuse to rebut my asinine claims I’m going to demand that you say exactly what I want to hear or else you’re a heretic.

How do you every win in a situation like that?

And just so I’m not only picking on PB, many of us hear get ODMish about our bent of theology. For example…I don’t get Church of Christ (non music) and I’ve been known to rail in private circles about that. I also align myself more to Calvin’s writings on scripture than anyone else I’ve read. The caricature of Calvinism that Rick often draws is not the Calvinism that I’ve experienced. However in Ricks defense it’s not hard to draw that caricature when you have a whole slew of onliners who look like his caricature.

But if you look long enough you’ll find Penecostals, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbytarians, etc…with their own little group of crazies. Every denomination has them just like all good families have an “Uncle Ned” who takes out his teeth at Thanksgiving dinner and puts them in his wine glass. Ciest la vie.

:)

63   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 10th, 2009 at 7:32 am

One of the great things about being a Calvinist ODM is you get to argue and attack everything, while sleeping with the knowledge no soul will perish because we you have wasted inordinate amounts of time attacking and not reaching the lost and hurting.

And when someone like Jay Bakker, who was seriously abused mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, is “out there” doctrinally,you can use him as a convenient piñata. You do not even have to surmise that Jay’s compassion toward the social outcasts may be related to his own deep wounds.

See, as an ODM you can define love as “telling people the truth” and with that mandate you can undress and attack anyone. And if you espouse some form of unconditional election, your spiritual conscience is clear. Especially when it has become obvious that God preferred Americans, Canadians, and later day Chinese in His “unconditional” election. :cool:

64   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 10th, 2009 at 8:48 am

I echo others here. The thing that annoys me most about the whole “debate” about open theism or some of these other theological issues is the idea that if a person is not walking lock-step with some narrowly defined set of ideas, well he is obviously a heretic. Where are we given a list of what ideas are right and wrong in the Bible? We aren’t for the most part. We are told the mark of a true Christian is love.

In a way, it’s like someone claiming they are a star football player simply because they own a uniform. Nevermind the fact that they’ve never played a down in their life – they look like a football player darnit!

It’s simply modern-day Phariseeism to equate being a Christian with having all the correct theological t’s crosses and i’s dotted.

65   corey    
September 10th, 2009 at 10:54 am

PB,
Well I’m glad that you’re not praying that the Lord will kill me! I guess I haven’t sunk too low yet! :)

66   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 10th, 2009 at 11:01 am

Corey,
I only pray that the enemies of God would repent or be destroyed, in general, to God’s glory. I do not think you are God’s enemy, even if your theology disagrees with mine just a little bit.

I want to clarify: Open Theism is heresy. Some of it bleeds over into soteriology, and therefore is very dangerous-the fact that God does not know what sins we will commit, therefore, how can the blood of Christ cover all sins? So, it makes me wonder if those who hold to it have a right understanding of God and his nature. I don’t know- what do you think?

67   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 10th, 2009 at 11:14 am

I want to clarify: Open Theism is heresy. Some of it bleeds over into soteriology, and therefore is very dangerous-the fact that God does not know what sins we will commit, therefore, how can the blood of Christ cover all sins? So, it makes me wonder if those who hold to it have a right understanding of God and his nature. I don’t know- what do you think?

And what you describe is not open theism. It is a caricature of it.

What Boyd says is that God knows the future inasmuch as it is a set of possibilities. People have a limited, albeit huge number, of potential choices they could make. God sees all these, so there is no possible way anyone could choose to do something that could possibly surprise Him. He has seen whatever sin could be possibly done. However, He doesn’t know what people will choose. I think this where people get hung up the most – by saying God doesn’t “know” something.

What Boyd would say is that the future does not exist in any real way, so it is impossible to truly know something that doesn’t exist. So it doesn’t limit God’s knowledge at all. It is really more of an attempt to describe how it works.

68   chris    
September 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am

Open Theism is heresy. Some of it bleeds over into soteriology, and therefore is very dangerous-the fact that God does not know what sins we will commit, therefore, how can the blood of Christ cover all sins?

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Sorry to be so blunt but really. *once again shakes his head*

69   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 10th, 2009 at 11:35 am

“Some of it bleeds over into soteriology, and therefore is very dangerous-the fact that God does not know what sins we will commit, therefore, how can the blood of Christ cover all sins?”

I pray you are on medication when you make such a statement. I cannot summon the energy to unpack such layered goofiness (Greek word).

70   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
September 10th, 2009 at 9:27 pm

WOW!! I never knew that goofiness could be layered. I stand in awe! I learn SO much from you Rick!!

71   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

Please remember that it is hell bound heresy to believe in open theism, but you are a bold witness when you treat a nation as an idol like this. So instead of going to Washington to passout cups of cold water (or whatever) in Jesus’ name to Muslims, you cry about American going to pot.

I got news for you Ingrid, America went to pot when the first soldier was murdered over taxes. By the way, PB, will Ingrid go to heaven if she continues in her hatred for Muslims and her idolatry over America and never repents?

72   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
September 11th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

“I lift up my eyes to the hills—
where does my help come from?

(From the Left) My help comes from Washington,
the providers of health, welfare and income redistribution.

(and From the Right) My help comes from America, God’s last and greatest country on earth, from which God’s justice to the world flows.”

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