I see Bell, Warren, etc as in the same “success” camp as Copeland or tbn or whomever – Chris P.

You either need corrective lenses… or you should stand a little closer to your subject.

This serves as a great metaphor, when you do not bother to discern the details, the nuances, the differences – it’s easy not to see them. Yet, that does not mean they are not there.

Neil, be fair. Chris P has corrective lenses — they’re whatever the exact opposite of rose-colored glasses is. You look through them and nothing applies to you; it all translates into how much Bell, Warren, et al suck.

Brendt,

I stand corrected…

I have read Chambers for years and am in complete agreement.
However this begs the question; what is proper discipling?

I see Bell, Warren, etc as in the same “success” camp as Copeland or tbn or whomever
So I will continue to reproduce “our” own kind, which may not necessarily reproducing those like you.

Thank God the bible teaches us to disciple people to be like Jesus and not like anyone else… especially Chris P…

Imagine Jesus with CP’s world view?

Jesus would have condemned everyone and wanted people to glorify just Him and not the Father… then Jesus would have just went around condemning others for not being as good as He was… and would not have cared about saving anyone as he was too good for that.

What a sick a perverse worldly view CP promotes…

iggy

The trap we fall into is extravagantly desiring spiritual success; that is, success measured by, and patterned after, the form set by this religious age in which we now live.

Truer words have never been spoken, a perfect reference to the seeker sensitive, emergent, evanjellyfish of today who will compromise and deconstruct anything and everything so as not to harm or condemn anything or anyone, making the narrow road seem broad, constructing a god who has painted blood on the doorposts of the universe so as to save everyone regardless of belief or non-belief.

Tis a strange world we live in, where white is black and up is down according to the feelings of the observer.

#10 – painful and uncomfortable honesty.

#14
His comments in his books, interviews, noomas, etc. contradict what is written there.

Heck..he does not even believe the Bible is a product of divine fiat.

Heck..he does not even believe the Bible is a product of divine fiat. – PB

…and neither do I.

That’s because it was not a product of divine fiat. I don’t know anyone, or any church, or any doctrinal statement, who says God said “Let there be the Bible, and there was.”

“The need to trust Jesus according to Bell”

Not according to Peter Rollins. According to him you do the works of the kingdom first (feeding the poor, etc.) and then you will believe later. When asked “Who is God” Peter refuses to give a direct answer and only says “Go feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.” and see if you find Him.

I have written a post on this and linked to a video interview of Rollins so I would not be accused of taking his words out of context. The interfaith site “read the spirit” highly recommends Bell and his tours and conferences and describes him as a leading evangelical who has embraced the value of all faiths as it concerns our common spiritual journey.

And Peter Rollins is the featured guest speaker at Rob Bell’s upcoming conference. I realize this information will not be met with much enthusiasm.

Heck..he does not even believe the Bible is a product of divine fiat. – PB

And I’d have to search for it, but in a thread not too long ago, Chris R asked me if I ‘believed that the bible merely fell out of the sky’ clearly implying that it didn’t. So I guess that even he doesn’t believe the words ‘divine fiat’ as if those words have any meaning.

I find it interesting nauseating that I give a thought-provoking quote — with no comment whatsoever — and all I can get from the detractors of this site is “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Rob Bell.”

Chris L, I think we’ve got another item for “How We Seek to Be Different”:

We actually occasionally think about how something might apply to us before defecating on others.

PB,

what planet do you seriously live on?

When you start speaking about all those groupings and describing them, I have to wonder if you really know what you’re talking about.

It’s baffling. You’re not describing anybody I know in the emerging conversation.

You can’t have it both ways, PB. There are a ton of “emergent” types that are happy to fight for truth, and offend people in the process. It’s pretty clear that that’s the case…you’re a living case in point of those who are rightly offended by the rebuke that is the emerging conversation. Praise God you’re offended! By your own standards I hope it is an “offense” that will lead you to repentance and re-newed faith in Christ. It seems that “offense” and “telling people off” are the only way you think someone is honoring to God. It’s my prayer you’re not so hypocritical then as to not receive it. You have measured, now receive it in full.

as to Rob Bell, the classic and historic doctrine of inspiration does not even come close to approximating “divine fiat” (i.e. Divine dictation)

do you mean to say you think God “dictated” the Scriptures?

“divine fiat” is getting at exactly that idea. That’s the Islamic view of the Koran…seriously. Mohammed had the texts dictated to him by Allah. He was just a Koranic stenographer in their belief system.

That’s not a Christian idea of what inspiration means and how God’s divine role played out in the creation of the texts.

You whine and complain about evangelicals…guess what? You’re the product of the real problem they have…an a-historical, anti-intellectual arrogance that makes you look and sound really stupid about the very Church and Scriptures you claim to be the only ones that are loving and valuing them.

“Divine Fiat” goes past dictation… it means God created without further effort – dictating would be further effort. He create he world by fiat.

#26 you slay me. Lol!!!!!!

Yep… PB believes the Bible just dropped from the sky… and no human had part in writing it…

that they are a human product. God did not dictate to man what should be written. Most are either eye-witness accounts, or stories passed from generation to generation. That being said, I believe that it was fully in

I am not sure what happened and why it appeared only partially there… the point was that the the bible can be fully inspired and yet not given as a divine fiat… as I stated it is the mixing of human and divine which connected in the “directed” revelation and guidence of the Holy Spirit…

OK…

Iggy – I do not question your motives or your contouring a particular approach to someone’s unique circumstances, however no one can Biblically defend the interview by Peter Rollins. His theology is a nebulous philosophy, engaging and thought provoking, but openly unbiblical.

His “feed the poor” and you will find God goes against all Biblical narratives and teachings. Believers were not martyred and persecuted because they were on an evangelistic mission to feed the poor. Jesus is a scandalon, a stumblingblock, but He doesn’t ask us to hide Him in confusing and cloudy speech, we are called to preach His name lovingly but clearly to the entire world.

Rollins also seems to embrace the notion that all religions are on the same path to finding God. His brand of religious philosophy is dangerously alluring and the fact that he has found a place of prominence in a network of churches is indicative of the times in which we live.

And the fact that believers are not alarmed is another sign of the openness with which believers will accept almost anything. This is not about the nature of the Scriptures, it is much more serious however on a basic level it is connected. These issues, and teachings by men like Rollins, are unravelling the very fabric of the faith itself. In effect, Rollins says nothing but that nothing will deceive many who will not even entertain a moment of sincere assessment because they have been taught not to discern because of the verbiage of some they dislike.

The process is slow and multi-layerd, and it continues with relentless determination with clandestine openness. I feel no anymosity toward anyone, however I do grieve when I see men who love Christ refusing to even consider the possibility that a substantive deception is afoot.

I am responsible to God for a small handful here and those very few who read my blog and although I will never lead personal attacks and teach others to do likewise, I will attempt to expose things that are contrary to the gospel teachings of Christ.

Yep… PB believes the Bible just dropped from the sky… and no human had part in writing it…

Funny thing is Iggy, we all know this is not true, that PB would not actually say that God created the Bible by divine fiat (at least I assume he would not say that)… yet, in his angst to attack and belittle a brother in Christ, he is willing to become theologically sloppy.

His “feed the poor” and you will find God goes against all Biblical narratives and teachings.

Is not Jesus God? According to Jesus even if we give a drink of water to someone we did it unto Him…

So did that person not find God in Jesus by giving even a glass of water?

So really, Rick, with all due respect you are painfully wrong in your statement… and view…

Show me where Jesus did NOT say this…

In fact show me anywhere in the story of the Good Samaritan that God is in it? The religious are and a man who sees someone in great need… and does the will of God… yet are you willing to say that the Good Samaritan who did not preach the gospel to the beaten man… did not do the will of God and also find God, and share God with the beaten man?

Show me where Good Sam preached the gospel to the beaten man and and yet was called “the good neighbor” then I will agree with you…

BTW I did say much more to the young man…

iggy

Rick,

Sometime today I will listen to the interview… I have heard Peter speak a few times and found him always provocative and yet right on…

As far as flipping things around, I do not think God works the same way every time with all people. In a sense since God already reconciled us all at the Cross, we do already belong… and then we must act on believe so to me these are hand in hand… and we continue to grow in our belief throughout our life as believers… we don’t just believe once and it is the end of believing.

But I have not listened to the video that you referenced yet… Calvin College is a great college though… and I see they most likely would not promote a total heretic.

iggy

From the OP:

Never seek after anything other than the approval of God, and always be willing to go “outside the camp, bearing His reproach”

From Mkie Ratliff’s Mighty Warriors:

“No, these believers are mighty warriors for the truth who stand firm defending it, but at the same time, they, like their example Christ, do not defend self.”

And in stark contrast, here is Ingrid whinning again about Tim Challies’ post about over reporting of evil on some ODM blogs. His warning was about merchandising evil in the church and having it become a kind of tortured entertainment.

Ingrid can back a dump truck load of hyperbolic invectives about anyone and everyone but let one blogger who is usually in her own camp post a mildly corrective post with no names attached and she can’t sleep at night.

Yep, mighty warriors indeed…

PB,

Balaam called he wants you to come home.

This is from Ingrid’s post about Challies’ post:

“What a shocking comment to come from someone who believes in the priesthood of all believers.”

I want to state that I believe in the priesthood of the male believer.

PB,

Talk about twisting scripture and taking it out of context!
What you just did is the same as JW’s and Mormons do to the bible…

But at least the JW’s created their own version… by divine direction of God…

iggy

Joe,

It is as if sometimes these guys read something in an grownup book and not quite grasp it’s meaning… but if we were just talking about PB it would just be… PB… but this sort of started with Ken Silva who as we all know has a complete grasp of church history and understanding of all christian creeds and doctrines.. I mean he agrees completely with Calvin yet is not a Calvinist!

So it seems that there are some that think themselves wise and God shows them for the fools they really are… I am glad that this fool (me) may sometimes come across wise by God’s Grace!

igs

The Dictates of the Discernment Double-Standard……

So you will remember one of Ingrid’s main complaints was that Challies was vague in his article on online discernment blogs and by not naming any indicted all.

Sooooo, what does Ingrid do in this post?

A few nuggets……..

One critical blogger stated authoritatively that if bloggers weren’t qualified to be church elders, they shouldn’t be “dispensing discernment.”

Just WHO is this “one critical blogger”? Hmmm, we are never told.

What a shocking comment to come from someone….

~snicker~

I would further add that many who jumped on this quote and used it to demonstrate how bad watch blogs are were equally unqualified for eldership due to their ungodly and raunchy conduct online.

Anyone noticing a pattern here?

And that same post by Ingrid links to this blogger who also complains about Challies being vague and then, yep, you guessed it, does the same thing:

there are so-called “discernment” blogs that I personally do not exactly want to be associated with. But to attack "watchblogs" in general and state that the problem is that they are “doing discernment in the flesh”, or are using “evil as entertainment” attacks the very actions of discernment itself and is a judgmental statement on the state of people’s souls.

You just have to love the second sentence following the first. You just can’t make this stuff up. He is from Singapore so maybe something got lost in the translation.

And let me leave you with this tasty morsel that cavalierly offers that “destroying a person is the worst a “watchblogger” can do” but afterall, that pales in defending “the truth”:

The most “negative watchblogging”, which focus on persons, can do is destroy individuals, which is highly unlikely in the first place. Heresy however attacks the truth and thus permanently destroys individual souls, churches, and denominations, and that destruction continues through time. The former deals with people, the latter with the Truth!

And if the “watchbloggers” are wrong? As Ray Donovan, Labor Sec’y under Reagan, after being acquitted of corruption while in office famously asked, “Where do i go to get my reputation back?”

Rick,

Just listened to Peter Rollins interview and I think even more you are not understanding what he is saying at all.

iggy

I also just adore Chew’s implication that destroying people is “all” that a watchblog can accomplish. I guess destroying people is just collateral damage and nothing to get all bothered about.

But let someone say something about these bloggers and they suddenly believe their personal reputation is extremely important. Another example of “The Dictates of the Discernment Double-Standard”.

Joe,

That’s likely as well. The bottom line it, Pastorboy cannot bother to discern what Bell is actually saying, he will not bother to think about it critically – if Bell says it, it must be wrong… even if it is actually quite biblical.

It’s kinda scary actually…

Here is what I perceive Divine (God) Fiat (an order issued by legal authority, usually beginning with fiat (let it be done); decree
a sanction; authorization) and what it has to do with scripture:

The Word has always existed-
God has ordered History according to His sovereign plan-to bring Himself glory ultimately.
God did not drop the Bible out of the sky- but what He did do was something we call inspiration, described by Peter as ‘men being carried along by the Holy Spirit’
Did God take over their personalities? Yes in a sense. But God allowed the personalities to come through for a purpose in communicating his message in a very specific way.

The sanction part? Like a divine editor (lousy illustration) God carried along each author to write down what each author wrote. He gave them a command (sanction) to write, the authorization (permission) to write what they wrote as His representatives carried along by Him.

He said let it be done…and it was done. 66 Books that were written by men carried along by God at his authorization. Not man’s idea- not his authority, decree, sanction…let it be done so to speak- BUT GOD’s!!!

Who is Peter Rollins and what’s his relevance?

The most “negative watchblogging”, which focus on persons, can do is destroy individuals, which is highly unlikely in the first place. Heresy however attacks the truth and thus permanently destroys individual souls, churches, and denominations, and that destruction continues through time. The former deals with people, the latter with the Truth!

I’ve never understood why these people think the truth is such a fragile thing that needs to watched over like a Ming vase. If what they think is the truth really is the truth, than it will be able to stand any attacks or questions that come against it.

I often think a big part of the reason calling yourself a “defender of the faith” is so appealing is because when you take a defensive stance it actually hardens you from opening yourself up to change. You forget that *gasp* – you might be wrong about some stuff. When you get down to it, the ability to pass judgment is just dangerous. There’s a reason God told Adam and Eve not to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil – it was for their own good. He knew it was something they couldn’t really deal with.

Sorry for helping this thread wander a bit… hope this makes up for it…

My original comment was in repsonse to Neil stating that Bell teaches the need for trusting Jesus. My point was Peter Rollins does not sem to teach that and Rollins is the featured speaker at Bell’s upcoming conference.

That was the connection.

Wow, Rick, did you listen to the whole interview with Peter Rollins? He states a few times the need to trust Jesus… he even states that ” We are all instruments of each others further conversion – Peter Rollins”

He also states that being a Christian is worthless unless you are transformed into a better person… how, THROUGH JESUS….

He goes on about his feelings if someone converted Christianity to Scientology… and that Christianity is not a religion…

There is some really great stuff in the interview and after listening to it I could not see how you could have come to the conclusion you had…

iggy

The Word has always existed-
God has ordered History according to His sovereign plan-to bring Himself glory ultimately.
God did not drop the Bible out of the sky- but what He did do was something we call inspiration, described by Peter as ‘men being carried along by the Holy Spirit’
Did God take over their personalities? Yes in a sense. But God allowed the personalities to come through for a purpose in communicating his message in a very specific way. – Pastorboy

The Word, as in Jesus has always existed… not sure I’d say the same about the Bible. And that is what we were talking about.

What you describe as God carrying people along when they wrote, taking over the personalities to the point of making sure his words were communicated – that is not divine fiat.

In the context of Velvet Elvis, when Bell said the word not was given by divine fiat it is obvious he meant to deny the same thing you just did – that the Bible did not drop out of the sky…

This from the OP:

“Many of us are dictators, dictating our desires to individuals and to groups. But Jesus never dictates to us in that way.”

Against those edifying words, here is a fleshly rant that exposes Mark Driscoll as a self absorbed, and effusive bully. This kind of “Biblical preaching” cannot be defended, regardless of what behavior he was addressing. The self righteous masculinity is palpable and in no way mirrors the things suggested in this post by Brendt.

I would suggest that the strength of Biblical manhood is much gentler than has been constructed by the “Fight Club” model of western males that Pastor Driscoll seems to emulate.

Actually, I thought that the sermon the MD clip was excerpted from was a pretty good one. Part of the problem with ’sound-biting’ sermons on YouTube is that, rather quickly, you get the impression that someone is the sum of their soundbites.

secular? carnal?

?

Secular – even secular sources are against spouse abuse

Carnal – The “Quit doing that!” method.

Both are without a Christian perspective that requires Scriptural principles, patience, gentleness, and discipleship. Sometimes in our subconscious protection of our own wives we can be blind to a method that addresses these issues with significantly less spirituality and significantly more testosterone and personality.

Secular – even secular sources are against spouse abuse

Well, secular sources are also against other sins as well. Just because a blind pig finds a truffle doesn’t mean that the market for rare fungi is in the tank. As for ‘abuse’, Driscoll’s definition of ‘abusing’ your spouse was beyond physical and what secular sources would consider “mental” abuse.

Carnal – The “Quit doing that!” method.

Kind of like “Go and sin no more”? Or “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”?

For everything, there is a season, and sometimes that does include forceful language in confronting specific issues with those under your care…

My point was not to defend Driscoll, since I have not seen the whole sermon nor the sound-bite…

That said, I see no disconnect between “Quit doing that” and “Go and sin no more.”

I suppose I could say that denying “quit doing that” equates with the principle Christ proffered with “go and sin no more” just reveals a when you hearts on fire smoke gets in your eye.

In this case Rick, I think your dislike for Driscol (which I am not commenting on either way) has caused you to take up Pastorboyan tactics.

OK, maybe I should have said “resemble” Pastorboyan tactics – though maybe that’s not much softer, is it?

I legitimately don’t see the disconnect, between “Quite doing that” and “Don’t do it anymore.”

Rick, At the risk of looking like I am back-peddling… at the time it made perfect sense to me, but having been challenged to show the connection I cannot.

My apologies.

silvanian, pastorboyan…

i personally prefer:

ingridic…

I will refrain from any Ray Boldger references. Many ODMs would welcome your John the Baptist reference since many use him as their template.

I find the “timid listeners” quip to be…well, never mind. Given some of my more virulent posts and comments over the past three years I would not classify myself as a timid listener.

I guess I must reference comment #82 once again.