Ingrid in doing her part to alert the remnant has directed her readership to an article by Paul Proctor “Are Christians driving church numbers down” To quote Ingrid, the article is “interesting”. Unfortunately I suspect Ingrid and I have a different definition of “interesting”.

Sans the illogical rhetoric, the hubris, and the Silvanian word flourish I’m not quite sure what Paul was getting at. I mean the title is certainly an eye catcher but then he launches into a convoluted explanation that is rife with…well…it’s kinda hard to explain. Here’s my outline:

The church is dying.
It’s not our fault.
God is in control.
It’s probably God pulling weeds.
We are the only true converts.
It’s not our fault.
God is in control.
Save us from the apostasy.


If you do happen to head over to Paul’s article be sure to skip over this paragraph.

Is it not biblical compromise and carnal indulgence that has ultimately caused it – pleasure palaces built with borrowed money to produce sensory circuses that can better compete with the world for your patronage and mine with watered-down gospel messages, coffee shop ministries, rock and roll worship and people-pleasing programs? If it is, then how can more biblical compromise and carnal indulgence solve it?

You might get confused as you see the ads, promos, sales, email alerts, and store links for all kinds of “carnal indulgences”.

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153 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 9:47 am

Does the phrase “have your cake and eat it too” come to mind? Almost every event can be wedged in to either prove God’s judgment aligns with their perspective, or God’s blessings are being poured out on the faithful, which coincidentally, are them as well.

God is weeding out His church but He doesn’t seem capable of stopping abortion. In Ingrid’s own words, “interesting”. :cool:

Defining events with a divine prism is not only a non-exact science, it by definition suggests you have an inside tract with God – another non-exact science.

2   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 9:56 am

OK Chris, when the mega churches grow it’s becaue of carnal methods and when the lose members it’s God removing the tares (prematurely I might add).

How can I win when the ODMs have all the angles covered?

3   Chris
April 14th, 2009 at 10:01 am


That same thing strikes me. I’m probably a little sensitive to it as I’m in full time ministry.

If my program grows it’s cause it’s watered down if it shrinks it’s “meaty” and deep. So reaching many is selling out. Reaching a few is being faithful.

4   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 10:06 am

I am thinking of declaring myself a one man cult, the last saved man on earth. I then become the supreme ODM who has the divine authority to breath fire on everyone, I said EVERYONE, just before God takes me to heaven in a chariot of fire.

But I really don’t have the energy.

Here’s a joke for you from late night TV –

Presiedent Obama held the first Passover Seder this week in the White House. And in keeping with his overwhelming popularity, Elijah actually showed up!!

5   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

Numbers are irrelevant when they are high.

Numbers are prophetic when they are low.

Rick Frueh
Grade: A+

6   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

Isn’t Proctor the douchebag that said God killed Kyle Lake (the pastor of UBC in Waco) for the sins of the emerging church by electrocuting him in a baptismal pool?

Oh, yeah. He is.

See this:

I don’t why anyone with an ounce of intelligence and self-respect would want to here anything that man has to say…even in the rare moment when he might (MIGHT!) be right about something. Which I wager is pretty much…never.

What a joke.

Kyle Lake’s death was tragic and if God was “punishing” the emerging church wouldn’t you think God would “take out” other people who actually are well known and prominent?

Please don’t dignify Proctor with any kind of response to his wack-job bat doo doo craziness.

7   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

“What a joke.”

nc – That is not a joke, it is a profound misrepresentation of Christ and an equally profound revelation of spiritual hubris, otherwise known as total ignorance (The sixth point of Calvinism).

I have long since recognized that many of the ODMs are saved but do not know Christ.

8   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

I hear you, Rick.

I just think Proctor is a real wack job–hence, to me, he is a sad, sad, sad and dangerous “joke”.

9   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 1:40 pm


I agree!

What is interesting is that Ingrid posted the Kyle Lake post from Procter and when people in her OWN camp told her it was too much… she did take it down… but that she considers this man as credible is beyond me… it seems to show how seriously ill Ingrid may be…

She definitely has major anger issues that she needs to deal with. Proof with the angry words she has had with Tim Challies and Steve Camp… she has even confessed publically she has “trouble not hating me.” Again an issue she needs to deal with. For someone cannot make another “hate” or “angry”… hate and anger must already dwell in the person to come out of the person…

Though I personally do not want to say these people are not bros and sis’s in Christ… I agree they do not know Jesus and are very carnal in their ways…

So the question I am left with is… if someone does not know Jesus… how can they be saved?

I still will leave that to God…


10   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

It is despicable and profoundly evil. How is it that when Patricia MacArthur almost died with a broken neck in a car accident that everyone was compassionate and prayerful, and then a brute beast like this Proctor not only is void of compassion for a family’s loss, he openly suggests divine wrath?

But as we can see, kindred spirits are drawn to each other. How do people live with themselves, much less drag the name of Jesus through the mud of their fallen nature? If I was not a believer, it would be people like this that would not only keep me from Christ, but make me hate Christians.

But then again it would only glorify God since He did not choose me.

In many corners of Christianity, orthodoxy is nothing more than demonic teachings of hate.

Rick Frueh circa A.D. 2009

I legally give permission for friend and foe alike to reprint all or some of my comment. I will gladly add to it if provoked.

11   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

BTW agian… it is all iggy’s fault… I will bear the blame…

12   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

How very PSA of you, Igs.


13   Sam    
April 14th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

hmmm…maybe I am missing the love of Christ angle you guys claim to proclaim to others. Maybe it is the calling people douchebags, implying they are unregenerate, beast, and seriously ill because you do not agree with their views….

Tell me again, how is CRN info different in tone than the dreaded ADMs that you have vowed to protect the sheep from?

14   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Douche bag? That seems a rather tame characterization for this kind of action.

Like calls to like I suppose.

15   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

Commenter versus writer. Learn the difference and you will be enlightened.

16   Chris
April 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

hmmm…maybe I am missing the love of Christ angle you guys claim to proclaim to others. Maybe it is the calling people douchebags, implying they are unregenerate, beast, and seriously ill because you do not agree with their views….

Tell me again, how is CRN info different in tone than the dreaded ADMs that you have vowed to protect the sheep from?

Okay let’s try this one more time:

1) Don’t confuse commenter’s with writers.
2) NC douchebag was over the top.
3) Iggy we don’t know Ingrids mental state.
4) Comments are allowed
5) We never remove an article
6) We never call into question ones salvation
7) We don’t claim to speak for God on every issue.
8 ) We don’t ask for money
9) We rebuke those who need it (See #2 and #3)
10) We have a variety of writers from a variety of denominational pinnings. Not just our Amen choir.

I can come up with more if you like.

17   Phil Miller
April 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

I believe with all my heart that someone being a douchebag does not mean they’re unregenerate! Jesus died for and loves douchebags as well… :-)

18   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

#13 – Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Christian correction. Some self righteous blogger suggests God murdered a pastor, in front of 800 onlookers including his WIFE AND THREE CHILDREN, and the best you can come up with is a pitiful “how are you guys different”?

You are exhibiting the attitude to which I was referring. The love of God, you ask? Who cares about this blog or any blog, it is the underlying spirit that either projects redemption or venum. It is the absolute zenith of spiritual arrogance to sit and type such detached judgment and contend you speak for Christ Himself.

Hugh Hefner lives, Marcus Borg lives, The Mormon Bishop lives, abortions by the millions are performed, Bin Laden lives, and God stoops to murder a pastor in a baptistry to show His displeasure of some doctrine and then instructs some contemptible blogger to be His Moses?

What god do you serve? Is He a god that lets you live because you are “orthodox”? Pastors by the thousands are this very day in adulterous affairs and they will rise to their pulpits this Sunday, but God kills this poor man because He desires to substantiate you visceral hatred for the emergent movement?

That is NOT the God of the New Testament and NOT the God on the cross. Men have taken parts of the Scriptures, just like they accuse the emergents of doing, and have constructed a god according to their vain imaginations. Just the fact that God lets men like Proctor live dismantles the divine construct they project with such shameless effervescence.

Everytime I read something from these poison pens I have to expand my assessment of grace, not in deference to the worldy pew dwellers in evangelical churches, but in defference to such unchristian hatred and profound self righteousness. And I am thrilled that people like Sam come to this blog and read these comments since this may be all the dose of spiritual reality they ever get.

If Christianity is printing a tearless obituary of divine judgment over a pastor, father, husband, and fellow believer’s untimely death than count me as a Hindu.

(I am sure this man is praying this dead man’s children come across his post so God can speak to their hearts as well)

I give legal permission for any and all of my comment to be reproduced and will gladly be a guest writer on any blog concering this subject.

19   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm


I can only go by how Ingrid acts… I see her as volatile and unstable and will go off in a big huff over minor matters… In fact, why tell me she “struggles with hating me”?

I will never say she is not saved, but I would not let her teach or counsel or do anything in my church if she attended it.

I think anyone who has the anger and hate issues that Ingrid displays openly has some mental issues of some sort…

A mental illness is not a derogatory thing. It is stating that a person may need help… and needs to work though issues that keeps them from functioning in healthy ways. To me her profess anger and hate is a cry for help… and she needs our prayers.


20   Chris
April 14th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Ok Ig’s.

It’s all good. I just wanted Sam to know that we do actually hold each other accountable.

21   Sam    
April 14th, 2009 at 4:33 pm


1. Isn’t Iggy one of the writers?
2. Funny, he wasnt called on by the great professors of love and justice.
3. Saying someone may be seriously ill for holding an opposing view in neither loving or complimentary and was meant as a slam on Ingrid
4. Yes, comments are allowed because how else could you slap one another on the back and maintain the “collective”
5. O….K….. Is that always a good thing?
6. Uh…what was Iggy saying in #9?

“Though I personally do not want to say these people are not bros and sis’s in Christ… I agree they do not know Jesus and are very carnal in their ways…

So the question I am left with is… if someone does not know Jesus… how can they be saved?

I still will leave that to God…”

Hmmmm…..saying someone does not know Jesus, wouldnt that equate to implying someone is unregenerate regardless of how “clever” Iggy thinks he is making his statement of “I still will leave it to God”. But prefacing it by making a judgment call on whether someone knows Jesus or not.

7. Nope…just for the collective….are you three of ten…or nine of ten…..i am having trouble keeping up with my scorecard
8. Would you like a cookie?
9. And who decides who needs rebuking? Are you the sole arbiter of such things. Now, you wouldnt be speaking for God if you decided who was entitled to be rebuked, would you…no. Irony lost once again.
10. OK… this where i insert..resistance is futile?

22   Phil Miller
April 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

1. Isn’t Iggy one of the writers?

No he isn’t. He’s an all-around good guy, though… :-)

23   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

Just to be clear, as the one who used the term “douchebag”…

I think it’s a pretty fitting description for a person who wrote what he wrote.

I’m not sorry for it. Never will be.
For all the garbage that the ADM’s have written, they have never, to their great credit, gone where Proctor has gone. Even Ingrid pulled the link to that garbage when it happened.

As deeply offensive as calling anyone’s salvation into question is to me, the Proctor article on Kyle Lake borders on damn near unforgivable. Note that I said “near”…

There’s forgiveness for all, but there’s some things that just leave a mark in this life…and considering that the general content of that man’s site is just more and more “red meat” thrown to the dogs, the Kyle Lake article stands forever as an immovable indictment by his own words.

What words would better be used?

His article was…

The person that wrote it is a…

none of those capture the depths of what happened.

I stand by it…


24   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Besides, it sounds like in 13 you were attempting to “rebuke” me, Sam.

Why wasn’t your rejoinder good enough?

Why do the actual writers here have to do it too?
Isn’t that part of the benefit of open comments?

You have my answer…

What’s baffling is that you would take a stance that parses “offense” in such a way as to draw some kind of parallel between calling someone a douchebag and what they are called a douchebag for. Even kind of implying that calling them a douchebag is worse than the article.

Please don’t obfuscate…

“douchebag” is nothing.

Now if I said something like…”I hope God strikes down the douchebag”…you might have something to be angry about, but it still wouldn’t really be about the word “douchebag”.

I don’t wish Proctor harm and I wouldn’t dance on his grave if he tragically died.

That’s the difference. Trying to make my words “the issue” only demonstrates how much you don’t get it.

Again, I’m not sad I said it.
The shoe fits.
He’s definitely wearing it.

25   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 5:01 pm


A timely, contextualized articulation of the Gospel, Phil.

26   Chris
April 14th, 2009 at 5:19 pm


While your responses were clever they just further illustrate the differences.


27   Joe    
April 14th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

8 ) We don’t ask for money

Well, actually I’d be willing to start this part. Not as a ministry mind you, but I’m really light on cash so if anyone has any that they want to send my way, I’ll take it.

28   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

If you’re unwilling to even click on the “Who we are” link before you go off into lala land, I would suspect the rest of your “research” is all that intensive.

Thanks for playing though.

29   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

FYI – Although I disagree with nc’s verbiage, I agree with his general point. :)

30   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 6:10 pm


no I am not one of the writers… and if you knew anything about mental illness you are using sad and outdated stereotypes and mischaracterizing what I am saying.

Is anger a sin? Is hate a sin? then if Ingrid is having trouble with those things is she then in sin or not in sin by your standards.

Having dealt with many people in regards to this type of thing there are some that are so deeply entrenched in bad theology they are living in a deep fear…

Anger is a secondary response to fear… I know I have been there…

If she is ill she needs prayer… and help… but if all you want to do is say that it is bad of me to state I think she needs help… then it is you that are not helping but adding to the problem

I am not stating she is ill because I disagree with her… I disagree with her and she states she hates ME! Get that?

I do not hate Ingrid… If she is a sister in Christ and acting out in such anger and hate toward other brothers and sisters then there is a serious issue with her somewhere…

So if she is angery and hateful toward others is it better to say she is sinning and needs repentance or that she many be ill?


31   Chris Redfield    
April 14th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

I have to say that I think nchas a point in episode 6 and episode 23. Here’s what Dr Proctor wrote:

The headline read: “Waco pastor Kyle Lake killed in freak baptism accident.” I thought to myself: “Yeah, I guess this one just slipped by the Sovereign God of the Universe. Maybe the Lord was stuck in line at the food court waiting for an espresso when the lights flickered.

“His eye is on the sparrow” but evidently not on a prominent Emerging Church leader standing in a baptistery full of water holding an electronically charged microphone before a crowd of 800 on Sunday morning following a prayer where he petitioned the Almighty to “surprise me.” Apparently the Ancient of Days only numbers the hairs of your head when you’re properly grounded.

This is some of the most blasphemous and heinous writing I have ever seen out of the mouth of anyone–let alone someone claiming to have insight into the Word of God. How anyone can quote this man, direct us to his web-sty, or think that such a man is at all, even remotely reputable is beyond my imagination. Such jackassery ought to be unforgiveable if it isn’t.

Not only is he a douchebag–albeit perhaps a forgiven douchebag–all that really remains is for someone–although probably not this blog–to decide how much douchebaggery is permitted before one is completely written off.

I’d go so far as to say: that post about that preacher is enough douchebaggery to render Dr Proctor a completely ignorable person. If I ever read another syllable that man writes it will be too soon. The fact that he is being referenced as a reliable, credible source by Ingrid S goes a long way towards demonstrating how completely whacked her ‘ministry’ is.


PS–I apologize to Chris, the author of the post, and to the administrators of for derailing this thread and for using the words ‘jackassery’ and ‘douchebaggery.’

However, I thank nc for pointing out how Dr Proctor really feels about his brothers and sisters in Christ. I can safely avoid his pathetic excuse for a blog henceforth.

32   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

As far as judging Ingrid… when I look at the bible it states that one that hates their brothers and sisters in Christ does not have the Truth in them… it is clear… and if I was to be so bold I would say that the bible makes it clear that Ingrid is exhibiting hate and thus by the Bible’s standard does not have the Truth in her…

Me though holds out hope that she does know Jesus and that grace is sufficient to save even one that is deceived or ill or caught in bad theology… I hold out hope not condemnation… and you, Sam, twist it around to condemnation.

I guess if you serve a condemning God that is what you see in others… I serve Jesus who is the Image of the Father who did not come to condemn sinners but to save them… who gave his life as a ransom for those who believe…

Again, if the bible states one that hates their brothers and sisters does not have the truth in them… and is not “in the light” and Ingrid is expressing hate toward me and others… what would have to say? Do you believe the bible or are you just mouthing a weak faith and believing the parts you want to believe?

I believe the bible for what it states…

Will I say Ingrid is not saved? no… because God works on believers to deliver them from the bondage of the sin they are trapped in… God freed me from anger and hate as a believer… so I cannot say Ingrid is not saved… only that she needs help and deliverance from her profess hate and actions of anger toward others.


33   Ingrid    
April 14th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

Carlos Shelton—Iggy, you are a liar. I never said that I hate you. You are quoting from an email in which I privately tried to get you to stop your online harassment of me on the mafia site. I wrote that the reason I wanted to make peace was because due to your conduct and treatment of me, my flesh wanted to hate you, and I didn’t want to hate anyone. Even efforts at peace with you are turned back in hate.

Long after I sent that email you are still lying about me online, calling me volatile and unstable, publicly calling into question my mental health, as several others have on this site, all because you disagree with my views. Your public degrading of my high risk pregnancy has been noted. Any man who would publicly degrade another man’s wife, let alone when she is carrying a little girl she is at high risk of losing, is a low breed of scum. Your offensive photo of the naked pregnant belly even appears when my name is googled for images.

You are beneath contempt, unrepentant and continue on. I have nothing to say further to you, but someone brought your lies to my attention today, and I’m not going to let it pass. If my husband treated your wife with this kind of low down conduct, all because he disagrees with her blog, he would also qualify for the label of scum. There is no excuse for this, but men like Phil Miller and others here at this ongoing frat party have publicly called you a great guy and continue their fellowship. I wonder if they’d think so if it was their wives and unborn children being physically degraded publicly? The online gang rape needs to stop. The greatest irony is that the conduct here is supposedly an improvement on Slice. Your words all speak for themselves.

34   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 6:32 pm

Any mention of Ingrid and her pregnancy is extremely innappropriate, and I reaffirm my total rejection of the Itoldyaso site.


Having said that how about you, Ingrid, repenting of supporting Proctor’s site that made light of the untimely death of a pastor, husband, and father? How would you react if your father was killed in an accident and someone here said it was God’s judgment??

35   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 6:39 pm


You stated here on this blog… publicly. I have never state anything you have said in public to me.

So I am not lying…

Also, you attacked me when there was a rumor about your pregnancy… I did everything I could to stop that rumor… and then… you became… pregnant…

That is the point of what to believe.

I am not mocking your high risk pregnancy at all…. in fact the point is that you were very angry over a supposed rumor…

now… if you are public figure then why can you not accept that other do not think your “ministry” is of God?

You express hate, anger and then even use derogatory terms like “gang rape”… have you ever ministered to a victim of gang rape? Do you know someone who has been gang raped? I have and do… so you are sick as hell stating that making fun of you anger at being rumored to be pregnant is even close to that!

I did not mock you high risk pregnancy… I mock your hatred toward me when someone else stated the rumor… and though I tried everything to stop it you still came after me… here and in private.

Did you notice that I have defended you over and over?

Someone brought out some other rumor that I stated was wrong and that should not be discussed.

So here she is folks… expressing anger at me… she declares war on me and others and when we defend ourselves she is the victim… go figure!

Ingrid you have lied about me on Slice… you lied about me here… even that post does not mock you high risk pregnancy.. it mocks your hatred of me correcting a rumor that apparently was true after all…

so even when I do right I am wrong…

I do hope all goes well with you and my prayers are for you in your pregnancy…

You are not my enemy Ingrid… you are sister is Christ who I think needs help controlling your anger and hate…


36   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

BTW…. I rest my case… her anger speaks louder than my words ever will.


37   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 6:46 pm


Your “episode #31″…speechless. Had me laughing…


38   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

The online gang rape needs to stop.

Wow. wow. wow. wow. WOW!

39   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

If only someone here was the victim of a gang rape, then there’d finally be someone who could understand Ingrid’s pain from hosting a radio show on her family’s radio station and posting incendiary and often untrue statements on her blog.

40   rabanes
April 14th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

Paul Proctor is actually one of the most colorful (read: nasty) of all the ODMs. In a 5 round match with Silva, I’d put my money on Proctor. Here’s some of my most favorite statements from him:

- “many parachurch organizations and movements that have evolved over the years, some new and some not so new, from the Alpha Course, to the Promise Keepers to the Willow Creekers to the Purpose Driven to the Mosaics to the Emerging Church; each with their own set of false prophets and demonic doctrines steadily steering their respective groups into the coming one world religion of tolerance, diversity and unity, having forsaken the Word of God for the seductive will of men in an ancient occult effort to undo the confusion and separation the Lord inflicted upon the world under the rule of Nimrod…..”

- “[J]ust because someone is numbered among Warren’s many followers, it does not mean his or her name is in the Book of Life. If someone has received a false gospel and a false Christ from a false prophet, they have received a false salvation, as well. . . . ‘Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven’”

- “Loving God is not having a hand-raising, hip-hopping, wave-making, emotional experience in a Hawaiian shirt and sandals before a rock band in some downtown arena full of shrieking Seekers, Creekers, Promise Keepers and Passionate Purposeites. The only true act of love, worship and service to God is obedience to His Word. Everything else is distortion, distraction, deception, delusion and destruction”

:-) he can really get on a roll. But this has got to be my all time favorite attack on Rick Warren and the PEACE Plan:

“PIMPING FOR JESUS . . . Pimping for Jesus is exactly what the leaders of today’s ‘transformed’ church and ‘new spirituality’ are doing; and I can think of no more accurate way to describe it. . . . What is a harlot? She’s a prostitute, right? And, isn’t a prostitute a woman that seduces passersby to join her for fun, fantasy and illusion? Does she not appeal to the flesh of potential customers by using her charm, beauty, talents and tempting attributes; adorning herself and behaving in such a way as to lure and entice prospects with promises of pleasure, delight and gratification? . . . defines the word ‘pimp’ as: ‘One who finds customers for a prostitute.’ What’s more, pimps are paid handsomely for doing it, not by the ‘johns’ (customers) but by the working girls that are recruited, trained and managed by them. . . . [W]ould not all the church growth consultants, leaders and change agents that have set out to “transform” the church into something more worldly, desirable and marketable, qualify as Pimps for Jesus?”

Wow. That’s a good one.

R. Abanes

41   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

Yes, that is extreme. But to mock a pastor’s untimely death and proclaim God’s judgment trumps them all.

42   Jerry
April 14th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

Any man who would publicly degrade another man’s wife…let alone when she is carrying a little girl she is at high risk of losing…is a low breed of scum

This is priceless. With all due respect, let me turn the tables just a bit and see if it makes as much sense to you as it does to me.

Any woman who would publicly degrade another woman’s husband…let alone one who stands in a pulpit week after week under the authority of the Word of Christ…is a low breed of scum.

That makes a little better sense to me.

43   Joe    
April 14th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

The online gang rape needs to stop.

WOW!!! That’s all I can say…

44   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

I must agree, Jerry.

Anyone who would publicly degrade someone’s teenage daughter (painted girls of Sodom) is a low breed of scum.

45   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 8:36 pm

oh…I get it now!

Ingrid is allowed to go bat doo doo crazy on people but because of she has a uterus she’s above criticism.

Oooooh, I see now.

That’s how it works.

If you do want to go back to Victorian ideals then there some other things that have to go with it…namely, you getting off the mic and staying at home in quietness.

Oh, I know, I know, that dose of reality is just sooooooooooo abusive and mean.


46   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

Why am I only hearing the mother in Glass Menagerie going on and on while gossiping on the phone?

“You’re just a Christian martyr. That’s what you are.”

Come down off the cross, Ingrid. We need the wood.

47   Rick Frueh
April 14th, 2009 at 8:40 pm

It is always revealing when the greatest passion is exhibited when you are reacting to innappropriate words about yourself.

Ingrid is known for reacting to words about her. I still believe that personal remarks are offensive, but let us not forget that Ingrid openly suggested that some of us were lusting after a 15 year old girl.

Pot + Kettle = Ingrid

48   iggy
April 14th, 2009 at 9:52 pm

If Ingrid wants to be pa public figure and have as strong opinions as she has… then she need grow up and realize people will not agree with her… disagreement does not mean hate…

But it seems to in her world.


49   rabanes
April 14th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

Iggy: If Ingrid wants to be pa public figure and have as strong opinions as she has… then she need grow up and realize people will not agree with her…

RA: Well, as you now, at one point she had her husband email me and he told me to leave his wife alone!!!! That’s an interesting tactic.


50   nc    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

Hi, I want to have my cake and eat it too.

51   pastorboy
April 14th, 2009 at 10:20 pm

You guys are ate- up hypocrites that have sunk to a new low of nastiness.

You should stay away from Ingrid’s personal life. It is not right, especially considering you criticize her for going after what people do and say in public in the name of Christ….

52   John B    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:45 pm

So where has PastorBoy been lately? :)

Would be amusing to see him on this thread. But really, where has he been?

53   Chris L
April 14th, 2009 at 11:21 pm

So where has PastorBoy been lately? :)

Would be amusing to see him on this thread. But really, where has he been?

Actually, he’s got a comment in moderation that has a few hours to go before it’s live…

54   Joe
April 14th, 2009 at 11:37 pm

Actually, he’s got a comment in moderation that has a few hours to go before it’s live…

and it’s a beaut!

55   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 2:00 am

So after all was said and done, Ingrid swooped in for a rant and left as she came. The gang rape quip was precious coming from an expectant mother, and the frat party assessment of this blog was her typically dismissive self.

I have also noted that Phil Miller deserved a special mention in her tirade. I have been having a difficult time wrapping my mind around the depth of Ingrid’s hypocrisy. Phil is chastened because he “fellowships” with Iggy, but Ingrid can link to a man like Proctor who exhibits profoundly unchristian attitudes.

Wait! I get it now, Proctor doesn’t exhibit unchristian verbiage toward Ingrid. That seems to be the defining characteristic which separates demeaning hyperbole and “how dare you” demeaning hyperbole.

Interesting… :cool:

56   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 2:42 am

I realize that SoL is a discerning site that is dedicated to informing dangerous trends in evangelicalism and when the site administrator refers to Rob Bell’s personal appearance as “androgynous” it is a serious treatise on emergent theology and not “another man’s wife” making a demaning referrence to a “another woman’s husband”.

Ingrid has in the past squawked about someone referring to her appearance. Oh yea, I’m sorry, that was about HER. Unacceptable. There must be a more deeply expressive word for hypocrisy.

I am currently working on that word.


Two years ago Ingrid posted a secular news report about a dispute between the painter Thomas Kincaid and a manager of one of his outlets. Ingrid made a post about Kincaid’s lack of integrity being an example of Christian dishonesty and made a demeaning remark about his paintings. (something about his paintings looking “radioactive” because of his yellow lights)

When I questioned in SoL’s comment thread what that had to do with church doctrine, Ingrid, in her usual meek and quiet spirit way told me she would post whatever she wanted and don’t tell her what to do. And those were the days when I was still somewhat friendly to Ingrid.

On a foundational level, this is what happens when someone wants to be a “keeper at home” and a “rebuker of pastors” and still claim to live a Biblically reflective life. And even while she excoriates and castigates ordained elders from around the world, from Ravi Zacharius to Rick Warren, when she feels attacked she runs to the shelter of the “another man’s wife” defense.

Possibly another reason why God instituted male leadership in both the family and the church. Men cannot hide behind the “weaker vessel” shield when it is convenient for us.

57   Chris
April 15th, 2009 at 9:08 am

Possibly another reason why God instituted male leadership in both the family and the church. Men cannot hide behind the “weaker vessel” shield when it is convenient for us.

Your comment and Ingrid’s take on stuff (I can do it but don’t respond) kinda reminds me of this.

58   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 9:19 am

I admit Ingrid provides me a forum for over emphasizing my compmentarian view. I also am in the process of converting nc. :)

Chris – in your post you list God pulling weeds. I realize it is not your view, however can you provide any Scriptural teaching that suggests that concept is Biblical? (that God pulls up weeds and tares before the end time)

59   M.G.    
April 15th, 2009 at 9:20 am

This is really neither here nor there… but I googled Ingrid Schlueter for images, and to the left of the pregnancy photo is a photo of a remarkably unattractive transvestite.

The source of the photo? Christian Research Network.

It’s as if they have absolutely no concept of irony. As Ingrid likes to say, you can’t make this stuff up!

60   Chris
April 15th, 2009 at 9:24 am

I realize it is not your view, however can you provide any Scriptural teaching that suggests that concept is Biblical? (that God pulls up weeds and tares before the end time)

My outline was actually of Paul’s post and not any one thought I had on the subject.

No biblical text comes to mind.

61   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 9:32 am

I know it was not your view, but as I thought about it, and in light of the verbose sola scriptura proclaimers, how can they substantiate such a view?

Unless sola scriptura is just a pride badge and not a lifestyle.

62   nc    
April 15th, 2009 at 9:37 am

ooooh, i can’t wait for PB’s comment!!!!!


63   Chris L
April 15th, 2009 at 10:14 am

You should stay away from Ingrid’s personal life. It is not right, especially considering you criticize her for going after what people do and say in public in the name of Christ….

Observation #1: I don’t think any of the writers here have gone after Ingrid’s personal life, and we’ve actually slapped commenters in the past for trying to bring her divorce and/or pregnancy into the discussion.

Observation #2: Why is it whenever I read comments like this from PB, I think of this guy:

Leave Ingrid Alone!

64   Chris L
April 15th, 2009 at 10:21 am

I have also noted that Phil Miller deserved a special mention in her tirade.

Phil – I’ve never understood this, but why does it seem that Chris P and Ingrid love calling you out, specifically?

Did you run over their puppies and not tell us about it?

65   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am

“You guys are ate- up hypocrites that have sunk to a new low of nastiness.”

Eaten-up? You think this is a new low? I haven’t even gone to my good stuff yet!!

The fact that you will not even mention the Proctor post about the pastor in the baptistry reveals you are entrenched in bias and can scream on the beach but do not have the courage to strongly rebuke those in your own camp.

66   nc    
April 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am


Duh. People have been told to stay away from her personal life.

The real issue is do you think Paul Proctor should be a source of information/opinion?

Yes or No?

67   nc    
April 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am

Chris L,


Where did that guy go?

68   room2blog
April 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

on Sol:
1.) The whole research on SoL is laughable. SoL primarily refers to other ODMs, tabloid-style newspapers and worst of all: WorldNet Daily. Anyone who has briefly glanced at this train wreck of journalistic professionality and credibility should be intelligent not to cite WorldNet Daily as a source. If you do not possess the intellectual capability of discerning serious journalism from the vomit of the information era: take a look at the ads on this page, they are more than telling. Get-rich-quick internet scams are mingling with diet pills.

2.) SoL does not comment post edits after initial submission. This is simply and plainly bad journalistic style. I once pointed Ms Schlueter to a serious error in one of her posts (something about a British play with the cheerful title “Romeo and Julian”, you guys connect the dots yourself). The correction went uncommented, unfortunately I didn’t take screenshots, I will next time I find something. Considering the quality of Ms Schlueter’s research it shouldn’t take too long.

Ergo: Apart from the occasional nut a blind squirrel is bound to find and theological quotes, SoL has no informational or theological value whatsoever. It’s sources are not reliable, it’s message is bland in taste, poisonous in effect and thoroughly anti-Christian.

on Ms Schlueter’s “issues”

Whether she likes it or not, Ms Schlueter has made herself a public figure. If she cannot stand her private life being discussed on other blogs, there is a simple solution to this: pull the plug on it or password protect it. Spewing poison at half the world and expecting no reaction to come back is naive.
Most of the criticism towards Ms Schlueter on this blog has actually been pretty solid and fair and pointed at the factual level. Discussing her state of mental stability may seem inappropriate, but then again it doesn’t seem to be pointed towards slandering her, but rather an attempt at trying to find a reason why a Christian would behave the way she does.

Btw, Miss Schlueter (I’m very certain you’re reading this):

Your offensive photo of the naked pregnant belly even appears when my name is googled for images.

You have just given the “offensive photo of the naked pregnant belly” (I wonder what’s offensive about it?) a higher Google rank. If you don’t understand how the Internet works, then don’t blog!

69   Bo Diaz    
April 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

What’s even funnier is when I google her name the first result was Mark Driscoll.

And since when did Ingrid ever draw the line at someone’s personal life? She publishes articles about other people’s divorces, what other people’s family are doing, hell, she even goes so far as to publish what other people are thinking and feeling when she has no way of knowing any of those things.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Or in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

70   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

BTW the photo that is so “offensive” is one that was taken and used by Pro Life people…. It shows that a living child is in the belly of a pregnant woman. To me it is a beautiful picture… I could have used many very truly offensive ones, but chose that one for it’s beauty… to say it is offensive is really strange.

71   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

Here is the site I got the offensive picture from… I guess someone better tell them this picture offends Ingrid!

72   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

And true to form, when all the dust settles, Ingrid was willing to let the post go unchallenged since I suspect she had no actual facts or Scripture, but when words are directed at her, she opened not her mouth but was silent before her shearers she had to speak up.

73   room2blog
April 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm


Look what I found under that link of yours :) .
Ironic? Maybe. Fitting? Definitely.

74   Chris P.    
April 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

The church is dying.
The true church is alive and well.

God is in control.
Always, regardless of what the hyper preterist, open theists say

It’s not our fault.
Sure it is. I mean sure it’s your fault.

It’s probably God pulling weeds.
The weed pulling is coming. Are you allergic to herbicides?

We are the only true converts.
There is only the elect. Don’t know if that’s you or not.

It’s not our fault.
See same above

God is in control.
See same above.

Save us from the apostasy
There is no apostasy for those who are saved.

75   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

I never can access the submissions page, so here is a heart warming video of a woman, 48 years old, never kissed or been married, and she has a talent she shares with the world.

This is much better than the beach video. :cool:

76   nc    
April 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

Your offensive photo of the naked pregnant belly even appears when my name is googled for images.

Ingrid Schlueter

77   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Here the thing… I actually like it when people state my site is “hateful” as I am writing as an ODM… and they are “hateful”…

Yet, the difference it that I do not hate… I use humor to defuse the hate…

What is interesting though to me is that Ingrid is angry… that I posted about her anger at me for “spreading the rumor” she was pregnant…

I did not do that… a commenter stated this and I made fun of him… I even later defended Ingrid when “Smirking Monkey” (whoever that is as he left no IP or email) stated another thing that could have been true… yet I stated that it was most likely not and even if it was, it was under the Blood.

Now, she also accused me of stating things from a private email… I did not.. I am sure that if someone here poked around the comments from Ingrid… they will find the one where she was stating I lied about her husband recording under a New Age label… and she stated in that thread she “has trouble not hating me”…

So it took place publicly on this blog.

Now whether it was public or not… why would someone of rational mind state such a thing? Really?

I find the true irony is that if I was a father of Miley Cyrus and read what Ingrid stated of her, I would would make sure that the site was closed down… If I was a pastor’s wife and read the type of things that Ingrid states of Pastors and their churches… I would see it as personal and hateful… yet Ingrid seems all self righteous over a picture of a beautiful pregnant belly with a foot of an unborn child pressing against it… Yet has not issue of a transvestite picture with her name under it from a “friendly blog?

Yes, ODMafia can be seen as a hate site if someone understands that the hate is a mirror of the ODM worldview and how truly sick and twisted it is… in fact that is how I promote the site…

From the sick and twisted mind of… the ODMafia.

Love you all even if we don’t agree! Even you Ingrid…


78   Jerry
April 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

#63–is that a guy??!?!?!?!

79   rabanes
April 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

Offensive pictures????

Has anyone checked out the offensive, disgusting, and intimate pictures of dead/aborted babies that Ingrid sees fit to post all over her website — a website that any child my link to and see (and perhaps be traumatized by)?

NO, that’s fine for her to do. I think she has interesting ideas of what is, and what is not, offensive.


80   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

I happen to believe one of the most grotesque and offensive pictures ever posted on the internet is here.

81   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

I disagree Rick… this is the most offensive picture on the internet… what an idiot!


82   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

This was taken ten years ago. The dog was named “Chopper” who died, my current dog looks almost exactly like him except he is 30 pounds heavier and named “Rudy”.

Go Irish!!

83   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 4:08 pm


Try again… you linked to your own dashboard….

84   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 4:23 pm


85   pastorboy
April 15th, 2009 at 4:54 pm

That picture is not politically correct. Santa must laugh saying ha ha ha now.

86   rabanes
April 15th, 2009 at 4:56 pm



87   Chris
April 15th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

Go Irish!!

Maybe your dog should suit up. I’m sure he can catch better than most of ND’s wideouts.

88   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

Chris – It seems as if your love has an agenda. :cool:

89   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

I disagree with playing AC/DC songs in church. (I’m not partial to them outside church either) So I am in agreement with this, however I listened to a Todd Friel broadcast recently where he used Twisted Sister’s “We’re not Gonna Take It” as background music.

And the difference is?

90   Pastorboy
April 15th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

When Todd does it, it is not in a church.

It is an intro called “twisted scripture’

It is also like 2 seconds of we are not gonna take it. It is not the whole song.

91   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

Funny… here Perry Noble is preaching there is a hell and in a way doing the old… turn of burn style of sermon… with a twist…

And CRN is against it… really it is hard to tell… I mean what is the difference between this and PB vid’s…. less name calling? I guess Perry didn’t use “whore” enough?

The video is a clear calling to repent of burn… and still does not satisfy some…

Then as Rick states… Todd Friel gets a free ticket to use an even more sick band… Twisted Sister… whose fan club is called “S.M.F.F.O.T.S.”, which means… sick mother f***ing fans of Twisted Sister… Yeah! Go Todd promote that band! Yippie!

In reality the boys in AC/DC are parents or grandparents and fun loving group of guys who might refer to parties and ladies, but really other than drinking do not promote drug… most are married and have been for years… Brian Johnson is in his 60’s… and still sounds better than Perry ever will.


92   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 9:28 pm

A Lowly Masterpiece

93   iggy
April 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

I think she was 47 at the time of the video… but is 48 now…

94   Rick Frueh
April 15th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

Yep, she was 47. It’s me that will turn 57 next month. :cool:

95   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 4:14 am

#89 – So the difference is quantity? Both use a secular song to make a spiritual point. My point was if it’s wrong, it’s wrong regardless of quantity or because one is in a church “service”, whatever that is.

We used to play “I’m Proud to be an American” or “God Bless America” in church on 4th of July weekend which is idolatry. I do not subscribe to the AC/DC methodology, however I also do not subscribe to hypocrisy. I am sure these same people would attack the “Hell’s Bells” outreach.

Iggy, I also do not care if the original guys are parents etc., it is irrelevant. I do agree that this church, according to you, uses this song to present the gospel against the backdrop of the reality of hell. That should be applauded, because even most churches that believe in hell present it as a doctrine rather than a reality. How do I know?

Almost none of them shed even the smallest tear or exhibit any demonstrable concern for the plight of the lost. If we really believed in hell, and if we heard a pastor preach an anointed message of passionate warning, could we so easily file out of the church and go eat lunch and watch football?

In 1974 I went to many concerts by a little known (at that time) English rock star named Peter Frampton. He played small venues in the New York City area. It was during that time God was dealing with me about Jesus, and Frampton’s song “I Wanna go to the Sun” became “I Wanna go to the Son” every time I heard it. So I am not so self righteous concerning churches using secular means to provide a conduit for gospel evangelism.

The Holy Spirit can and does use many unapproved things in His unseen evangelism. And we should be in favor of most gospel presentations, especially if you subscribe to the theory that God will save every one who He chooses anyway. One of my best friends, who is a “MacArthurite Calvinist” was born again in a extreme health and wealth church.

I love irony. :cool:

96   Pastorboy
April 16th, 2009 at 8:20 am

Well Rick,

You are right about one thing…these people do not believe in Hell.

It is very clear. If you, or I. or anyone believed, truly believed in hell and how horrible it is, and that people who are not born again by the shed blood of Jesus Christ will go there and spend eternity, well, we could not sit there and enjoy that song in church or anywhere else.

I have heard that song many times before, but when I saw it there, in context of a church in a Sunday service- a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ- it made me literally tear up. I had to turn it off. I don’t take hell as literally as I should. I now must go tell somebody.

The very action of being here is wasting that precious time…God bless.

97   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am

And with the grace and blessing of Passover Week a distant memory, the irrepressible Elder Schlueter continues her redemptive filled language concerning ordaining practicing homosexuals:

* “The reek of embalming fluid from the ELCA and PCUSA, two of the big “mainline” religious corpses in America, is overpowering.” (This one is actually creative)

* “They went out with a barely a wimper—a pink boa and a gay rights brochure clutched in their cold hands.” (Ah yes, her demeaning hatred of anything gay continues to exceed our expectations)

She quickly moves away from Passover Week and her in church expressions of liturgical devotions, and she seamlessly picks up where she left off. But hey, Jesus not only did not die for the pink boa crowd, He actually hates them, just like He hates the overwhelming majority of the world who are stuck in an abusive, hopelessly non-elected non-relationship with their Creator.

And with that redemptively abusive relationship there is no shelter.

98   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 11:19 am

And thank goodness Miley Cyrus and some other girl have made another Slice cameo here.

Ah, finding fault with Christianity Today, the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel. In the revised and updated version of Fox’s Book of Martyrs there is a section on women who risk their very lives by taking blog pot shots at teenage girls. (the pictures are way too graphic for average Christian consumption)

99   iggy
April 16th, 2009 at 11:23 am


The point was made with the statistics and questioning whether one who is a christian believes in eternity in “hell”… we can debate the definition, but the presentation was as fire and brimstone as any sermon I have heard… or from any of those who supposedly have been to hell and back… (I have heard those also and sort of can give a personal testimony on my own experiences with “hell”… though I will not say I went to a literal hell)

There are points in the presentation where the music (which is an obvious lie) and the facts (truth) collide and I see truth makes one watching it make a choice to think about hell whether they want to or not.

Now again, we can debate on the definition or which “hell” but the bottom line is that without Jesus one will be seperated from God for eternity and that will be no party…

Do I like the “fear” aspect of the presentation… not really… yet I think it is effective to bring one to think about their own destiny and come to something much bigger than themselves… The Kingdom of God.

Personally the point is not the “tears”… tears do not get us into heaven or save one from hell… I am not saying we should not have tears for the lost… yet, I think the what make the point stronger is the presentation of the song juxtaposed to the truth.


100   iggy
April 16th, 2009 at 11:29 am

I love that Miley accepts she is a role model and admits she is flawed… while Ingrid rails over how everyone is not good enough for Ingrid’s standards… which seem to much higher than God’s…

Did Ingrid wrestle the scroll from the Lamb that was worthy to open it and sit on the throne or did the Lamb just realize that He was no match for the righteousness of Ingrid…


101   iggy
April 16th, 2009 at 11:30 am

I forgot, Chris P stated that public confess means nothing…

oh well…

102   alice    
April 16th, 2009 at 11:56 am

The amazing sweeping generalizations get to me. Today’s potshots at Christian publishing–what is the purpose? Maybe it hits a little close since I am an editor for a Christian magazine (one formerly under the umbrella of CT). Magazines have a purpose and a target audience. Maybe our articles aren’t “hard hitting on doctrinal issues” as SoL would like. However, this month, we’re covering such things as how to honor God and live your faith during a financial crisis; how grandparents who are called to step up and help raise their grandchildren can best influence them for Christ; and the cover story is on Carol Kent (author of “Now I Lay My Isaac Down”).

I’m no fan of the “celebrity” stories either, and as part of the creative team, we make that viewpoint known to the marketing team as much as possible. Some months it works, some months it doesn’t.

But I guess in Slice of Laodicea world, this is all worthless tripe, our readers are shallow (she knows them all?), and we are in the business of infantalizing people. “Nowhere to be found are the serious and in-depth moral and doctrinal issues facing Christians today.” I wish I had the time to read every single article in every Christian publication like that in order to be able to make that statement.

103   Joe
April 16th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

I wish I had the time to read every single article in every Christian publication like that in order to be able to make that statement.

No need to put yourself through all that work. Just talk your dad into buying a radio station or two. Have him hire you, give you a show, then start a few blogs where you call anyone and everything you don’t like names and damn them to hell. Cross link between your blogs and anytime anyone criticizes you throw out cute catch phrases like “the proverbial online gang rape has to stop” and hide behind the fact that you are pregnant. Have a few friends to defend you and Voila’ you are in business as an Online Discernment Ministry. No accountability. No real point, other than gross entertainment. You can say, and do whatever you want and hide it behind you’ re doing “God’s work.”

104   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

Why, oh why, oh why, oh why, is some stupid moves on the part of a few people always turned into an “epidemic” by the shrieking martyr of SoL?

Are there stupid things in the culture? Yep. There’s always been stupid things in the culture.

If she hates where the culture is so badly, she should just go be Amish…

oh, yeah…that’s right.
In that community she wouldn’t be allowed to act the way she does, much less vomit it out onto the internet.

“Elder” Ingrid Schlueter, indeed.

105   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

Joe – you forgot to add live a wild life like the prodigal son, then come home and get right with God, then instead of doing what your Heavenly Father did for you (watch for you and throw a party when you returned), start a judgmental site that verbally kills the pigs that you just shared a trough with.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, IS the gospel of redemption. :cool:

106   Chris L
April 16th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

Well Rick,

You are right about one thing…these people

[blah blah blah]


107   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

nc – that was one of your finest videos! I did not find any humor in it, though, I found it a serious treatise on complentarianism. :cool:

You are making real progress, my brother. And Ingrid, subconsciously, has provided an open classroom for my position. Thankfully Ingrid is not a reasoned, humble, and well thought out Christian blogger or my complementarian position would be much harder to project. :cool:

108   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

Chris L. has some kind of internet treasure trove from which he draws these great pictures!

I’m still waiting for a straw man beating a dead horse in an echo chamber!!

109   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

And to his credit (I know you’ll hate this) Ken has a post on the gay issue which is much more pointed and without the pink boa hyperbole. He does link to Ingrid, though, but I’m praying for His growth! :cool:

110   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

Hey Alice, how do you carry your purse?? :)

(#102 – good comment)

111   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 1:10 pm


Oh, no. Iggy, that was God who said confession means nothing. REmember, Chris P got a promotion?

112   alice    
April 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

The wrong way, I’m sure, Rick. :-)

I’m wondering about the thought process (or lack of it) that goes into it–see some obscure article in a UK publication about the dumbing down of women’s magazines that includes some parody. Write intro paragraph that turns said parody into “fact.” Segue into attack on Christian magazines complete with erroneous statements and invective. Segue into diatribe on unnamed pastor’s dubious practices and whirl off a biting, closing comment. Ta da, article finished, hit publish. No real research, no actual facts, just personal opinion, innuendo, and snarky one-liners.

This is supposed to be edifying to the body of Christ…how?

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I keep hearing verses from Proverbs about a quarrelsome woman being like the constant dripping on a rainy day or the woman who tears down the house with her own hands.

113   M.G.    
April 16th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

Well said Alice.

Can I propose a glossary change? Instead of ODMs (or ADMs) I think they should be called EDMs.

Entertainment Discernment Ministries.

That’s the best way to describe the kind of content-less snark that these sites publish.

114   ncgal55    
April 16th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

#104 nc the amish don’t have computers. If that video wasn’t so hilarious I would be offended.

115   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

This is a really hard comment thread to follow…

116   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Comments on the Proctor Article #1:

Everyone is trying to figure out what’s wrong.

This might come as a shock to many, but I would suggest that the answer here might just be nothing is wrong

I agree, but not for the same reason as Proctor. The culture is no longer propping up the faith… there is no pressure to go to church. So only those who really want to are – and that is a good thing.

117   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

Comments on the Proctor article #2:

Being the recipient of untold numbers of emails over the years from heartbroken readers who have left or been thrown out of their churches for taking a biblical stand on important issues has given me a perspective that many pulpiteers and pew warmers are not privy to.

Two fallacies here – 1) anecdotal cause and effect… just because you’ve heard a bunch of stories doesn’t mean there’s a correlation; 2) insider information… just because your privy to these stories doesn’t mean you have more info than the rest of us.

And I have a hunch that a lot of these being driven from church because they are taking a biblical stand are neither – being driven from, nor taking a relevant biblical stand.

118   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Comments on Proctor Articel #3:

You see, the majority functions on a false, yet implied premise, that God must operate within an established and recognized religious institution or it is not God.

Data please.

119   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

Comments on Proctor Article: #4 and #5:

Is it not biblical compromise and carnal indulgence that has ultimately caused it –

Agree – see comment 116 above.

…pleasure palaces built with borrowed money to produce sensory circuses that can better compete with the world for your patronage and mine with watered-down gospel messages, coffee shop ministries, rock and roll worship and people-pleasing programs? If it is, then how can more biblical compromise and carnal indulgence solve it?

How broad of a brush does he own? What’s wrong with coffee-shop ministries, rock and roll worship, and sensory experiences? Unless of course you confine God by Western standards of Modernism… “if ya wanna be one of His act like one of us.”

120   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

Comments on the Proctor Article #6

I find nothing in the bible about the importance of saving religious organizations or Christian ministries – only lost souls. And feeding the flesh more of what it craves will simply not accomplish that.

I agree. You will also find nothing in the Bible about acceptable styles of music, or acceptable methods of gathering, or any other culturally conditioned expression of Christianity. So why assume some are better than others. Why trash what you do not like, if God is silent on the matter?

121   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

RE: The Kyle Lake article by Proctor:

WOW – words fail me. Unless he has repented of that blasphemous rant, he has no business being quoted or referenced by any Christian or ministry.

I’ll not compare him to a personal hygiene instrument – this article is below much much worse.

122   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

“words fail me”

Neil, how about these words: “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”

123   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 5:33 pm



yeah, I know…that’s the point. :)

I’m glad you liked vid. It is a piece of humor.

124   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

I wonder if this is all still part of Ingrid’s “online gang rape” fantasy/delusion?

125   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

And Ingrid again notifies everyone she is an expert on manhood. Not satified with rebuking and demeaning male elders, she has expanded to include manhood in general.

God gives a woman the knowledge of both womanhood and manhood. A blog can be nothing more than a camouflague for disobedience. By the way, part of being a man, a husband, is keeping your wife from doing what Ingrid does. Anyone listening??

I wonder why when Zan and Erica comment here they are always engaged and respectful? I chalk it up to both their spiritual lives and the leadership of their husbands.

126   ncgal55    
April 16th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

#123 I know you knew that the Amish don’t have computers. I was just playing around. Blessings

127   Chris
April 16th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

Neil thanks for the breakdown point by point. I was gonna do that but I figured that most would go to the article and see right through the logical fallacies.

I only hope he was a better musician than he is an EDM.

128   Chris
April 16th, 2009 at 5:51 pm


Wow she can really scour the internet huh? I love how she is able to “discern” a church based merely on an ad.

Wow, wow, wow.

129   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 6:19 pm




God forbid anybody have a sense of humor about their men’s retreat.

As for the other stuff…


130   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

“Wow she can really scour the internet huh?”

I believe the word is rummage. Like a person who likes rifling through the garbage pail in the alley rather than going into the restaurant and eating a decent meal. And after they find the worse used coffee grinds they must report it to others.

131   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

I wonder why when Zan and Erica comment here they are always engaged and respectful? I chalk it up to both their spiritual lives and the leadership of their husbands.

Oh, no Rick! It’s cuz us evil men represent the threat of an online gang rape.

132   nc    
April 16th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

Like a person who likes rifling through the garbage pail in the alley rather than going into the restaurant and eating a decent meal

That’s a lovely picture.

ADM’s=Spiritual Porn, Spiritual Dumpster Diving, Bathing in Spitoons.

133   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

God forbid anybody have a sense of humor about their men’s retreat.

So much of what they opposse is people having fun, enjoying an event, pleasure, expressing creativity and/or a sense of humor.

Makes ya wonder about their view of God… can the follower of Christ not have fun?

134   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

“can the follower of Christ not have fun?”

Only at the peril of his eternal soul. Calvin never laughed – deal with it! :cool:

135   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

Years and years ago, I remember seeing a drawing called “Laughing Jesus.” It was your typical Jesus looking guy – but engaged in a big laugh, really cool!… I should google it and see what I find.

136   Rick Frueh
April 16th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

Neil – He was laughing at the calamity of the wicked. :cool:

137   Chris
April 16th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

I like this one.

138   Neil    
April 16th, 2009 at 10:40 pm

Chris, me too… there were several I liked. The guy over Jesus’ left shoulder, on the right edge of the painting looks upset… suppose even then there were those who thought the measure of spirituality was sourness?

139   Chris
April 16th, 2009 at 11:14 pm

yeah and right after that Jesus turned to him and said “I played a dirge for you and you did not mourn. I played joyfully for you and you did not dance”

140   Rick Frueh
April 17th, 2009 at 1:23 am

Why was Jesus laughing? Because the little girl in the left lower corner had asked Jesus, “How long does it take to cross the Sea of Galilee?” Jesus replied, “In a boat or on foot?”


The man over Jesus’ left shoulder is thinking:

“What in the world is Jesus laughing at? Doesn’t He know these people are sinners?”

141   Scotty
April 17th, 2009 at 8:36 am

I’ve heard it said and , I’ve often said it myself. If you don’t think God doesn’t have sense of humor, just look in the mirror!!

142   Scotty
April 17th, 2009 at 8:38 am

Wow!! Next time I should do a grammar check!!

143   Rick Frueh
April 17th, 2009 at 8:46 am

Don’t worry, Scotty, it ain’t no big deal. :cool:

144   Neil    
April 17th, 2009 at 9:34 am

The man over Jesus’ left shoulder is thinking:

“What in the world is Jesus laughing at? Doesn’t He know these people are sinners?”

I see a caption contest brewing, perhaps he’s thinking:

Urumph!! Just another example of the new Synagogue Circus of Judai-jelly-ism…

145   nc    
April 17th, 2009 at 10:20 am

The final speech at the end of the video is particularly appropriate.


146   Rick Frueh
April 17th, 2009 at 10:29 am

nc – So that’s where “You’re a piece of crap” evangelism began.

How does that square with “The Son of Man came not into the world to condemn the world…”?

147   nc    
April 17th, 2009 at 11:50 am

I really love the whole…

“just look at all those sinners…”

148   Sandman    
April 26th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

The online gang rape needs to stop.

Putting the minimization of, and insult to, true rape victims aside…

Sometimes the best way to stop it is to not put oneself in situations where it’s likely to occur.

149   iggy
April 26th, 2009 at 8:27 pm


Ingrid stated that about my parody site ODMafia… in fact she stated that this post had an “offensive picture” that came up on Google with her name… funny how she is not offended by this post that also has her named attached to a transvestite!

She was upset that someone mentioned that she might be pregnant to which she sent me some rather scathing emails (I even got one from her husband) and then later it came out to be TRUE! I wrote the post as a response to her anger at someone stating she might be pregnant… having defended her even in the comments and then being told “I have a hard time not hating you.” by Ingrid… to which she added, “stop the gang bang rape” which I stated was truly offensive to real rape victims.

It is saddest to me, that Ingrid will mock real rape victims and be offended by a beautiful picture of a pregnant belly and be anger over a rumor that turned out to be TRUE!

She is ill… sick with anger and hate and needs our prayer.


150   Sandman    
April 26th, 2009 at 11:18 pm

Well, yeah, there’s that…

Iggy, it’s pretty well established there’s (arguably) some history and serious bad blood between the two of you. It could be coming from one side more than the other, but that’s subjective. If she is, as you say, sick with anger and hate and needs our prayer(s), could it be possible to just pray for her and not feed the machine that fuels the rage? I mean, correct, rebuke and exhort as necessary, but without the excess that tends to provoke that kind of response?

151   iggy
April 27th, 2009 at 12:43 am


Anger and hate as in all sin already resides in a person… I cannot “make” someone angry or hateful… they choose to do so.

All I do is speak the truth that the truth war is a lie… since she is one of the “biggest” proponents of this lie called the truth war… all I do is hold the mirror up for her to see her own hate… in reality she herself.

Grownups understand that no one makes you “feel” one way or the other without allowing them to. I do not hate her for all the lies and junk she states…

I call for people to pray for her and she has yet to do so for me… even in private…

Her problem is not me… it is her own sin that dwells in her she needs to address.


152   Sandman    
April 27th, 2009 at 10:05 am

When the elephants fight, the grass suffers.

153   Rick Frueh
April 27th, 2009 at 10:41 am

But the snake fights within the grass.