Ingrid is at her energetic best when she is defending herself and what she does. Challies did not mention anyone by name, however I remember something I read on Pyro,

The dog that yelps is the one who got hit!”

Here’s my question: How can anyone make anyone else feel that they might be in sin?

Joe, Joe, Joe, you poor naive Yankees fan.

Don’t you realize that trying to make others feel that they’re in sin is the whole point of the ADMs?

I call it a spittoon. As far as insults are concerned, Challies is an amateur. Let Ms. Schlueter mentor him on the finer points.

then the biblical truth we publish is undermined.

And what is that Truth? I think Paul summed it up in Galatians 3…

1. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3. Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4. Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing? 5. Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

At least that is what I think Paul would say about the online entertainment tabloids or SoL, CRN and AP…

Funny that Tim did not mention them, yet they know who he means! It should tell them something… but it won’t. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud… and so the proud do not know grace and cannot give it to others…

BTW, that sentence I quoted from them sounds like what I write on ODMafia about “OUR doctrines” or “OUR truth”

All they had to do was make it “WE publish”…

hmmm….

iggy

Funny how Ken Silva links to Ingrid but not directly to Tim… but uses the platform to swipe at RIchard Abanes? What a bunch of sick petty children!

It should also show what kind of research Ken does… at least on page removed from the source…

I wonder that if in that way if Ingrid is found to be wrong, Ken can just say he “reported” it and did not attack Tim…

iggy

She always exhibits such self pity, but thankfully many readers e-mailed her to “keep it coming”. The pastor in Idaho having an affair edifies everyone. Miley Cyrus kissing a boy brings us to the cross. Pointing to Obama’s socialism pleases God.

I don’t know this Challies fellow, but since he did not publish Ingrid’s comment I just might send him a donation! I had a little fun on that thread myself.

All us sinners appreciate your leniency Father Rick.

Well color me impressed. But make sure you do it in Latin.

“It will not earn you lots of friends and accolades in this life”

And being mean, demeaning, dismissive, and generally a judge of everyone and everything adds to this phenomenon.

This could be interesting as Team Pyro generally likes Tim… and if Ingrid attacks Tim they may back up Tim… leaving less links for Ken and Ingrid.

Steve Camp no longer has CRN or SoL in his links…
Team Pyro no longer has their links either…

So they lost two of their biggest sponsors already…

iggy

Bo…

BINGO!

iggy

How much of this blog stuff is actually Christian? When does sounding the alarm morph into negativism? When does information become gossip? When does reporting become evil speaking and tale bearing?

How many posts here are tearing down MacArthur? R.C. Sproul? Al Mohler? And yet the same old tired dead horses are constantly beaten by redundant verbiage and ad hominen hyperbolic labels on other “necessary” blogs.

If you consume enough negativity you will begin to enjoy it. And like beginning to smoke cigarettes, once you wade through the initial nausea you become addicted. And the same it is concerning sensationalism and voyeuristic journalism, especially when it makes you feel vindicated and spiritually elevated.

The entire phenomenon is built upon the premise, spoken regularly in different ways, that Jesus is on your side and He is wholly dependent on you to inform the masses of a pastor in Smallcreek, Iowa who has been caught gambling. Without knowing about compromising pictures of Miley Cyrus we might all deny the faith. Without following the movements of Ted Haggard we would be susceptible to compromise ourselves.

And these salacious stories offered in creative vignettes are usually offered in redundant forms that insinuate a continuing series. And when someone turns the smallest mirror toward these blogs they squeal like they have been unjustly singled out and encourage their camps to stick up for them.

Those who are completely careless about their portraits of others demand they be presented in the most spiritual light. It is entertaining to see these bloggers defend themselves.

I am at a loss as to why Ingrid would be hyperventilating over *possible* criticism, which she happens to think is *entirely* misplaced.

If it is is as absurd as the thinks it is, and the post mentions no names, then isn’t it natural to assume that you are *not* the target of the criticism?

Why is the thought that somewhere in the blogosphere someone is writing something which may be pointed at you, but you can’t be sure, so unsettling?

And this coming from someone who criticizes EVERYONE ELSE NONSTOP.

As Ingrid is fond of saying, you can’t make this stuff up.

i just read the Challies comment thread…

people talking about this site “smelling blood in the water”….

That’s hilarious.

And in their own words proves what we’ve always known:

The lurking imams and their sycophants are just really mad that people won’t just lay down and let them glorify themselves with impunity in the name of their own righteousness.

Grill itup and eat it, lurkers.

Give me the principled disagreement of a Tim Challies any day over your puerile, high-minded self-importance.

Who knew Jesus’ story of the Publican and the Pharisee could apply so directly?

Puerile!

nc recieves the weekly vocabulary expansion award! Great!

(I haven’t seen that word used in years)

#29:

Yay!!!

It’s a great word.

So is “jejune”.

I saw you there, MG. You were sensing “blood in the water”!

I don’t know. I think I’d have to say some of that WOULD be entertaining.

If it weren’t so damn sad…

“It’s so like the Independent Fundamentalists who practice secondary separation.”

Very insightful. In my “Jack Hyles” wing we could not “fellowship” with the Falwaell wing and etc.. There are fissures within the discernment genre that absolutely resemble the IB movement of the 70s and 80s with one MAJOR difference.

We never had a woman as the head or spokesperson of any part of our discussion. We would have brought Tom Schlueter before the church and demanded he reel in his wife.

There are times where I battle feelings of intellectual superiority, aloof erudition, and a manifested oratorical prowess. There are times where I battle them, and then there are times where I just surrender to their power.

Aside from addressing some very real issues, this blog is a whole lot of fun! (Except for Bo’s language )

I also found it kind of … funny … that the only blog mentioned by name (at least twice) in the comments was CRN.Info – with each mention bemoaning that we were agreement with Challies, and taking comfort in his position.

Of course, if you pull on that thread, then you really do start “naming names” re: the watchbloggers Challies may be referring to (or at least the ones those insulted thought he was referring to).

(Side Note: Is it just me, or did John Baker start out on that thread already unglued, and spend the rest of it removing whatever glue that might have remained?)

Sometimes, Frank Turk is da absolute bomb. His comment over there is a great example:

BTW, I was watching TV last night, and the Discovery channel was running part of its warehouse of historically-inaccurate, exegetically-challenged refutations of the Christian faith and the Bible.

It would be nice to see the Watchblogs deal with that stuff — even if they reposted their previous refutations every year — to show that they’re concerned about things which the average Christian can use rather than, well, what they do do.

But then, the Discovery channel isn’t a sexy target like the church or fish-in-a-barrel Democrats.

I always rest assured of one thing about those shows about Jesus on the Discovery Channel. They will undoubtedly feature an interview with John Dominic “they’re after me Lucky Charms!” Crossan… and it will always involve the words “subversive” and “empire”.

Watching the watchdogs is a thankless task. In a way, they should be applauded. Their tireless efforts to sift through the endless news reports about moral failures and extreme church goofiness is a labor of love.

I awake in the moring, spend my time with Jesus and His Word, and something is still missing. I feel empty. But when I read about some goofy pastor in a bathtub, or another pastor caught with the youth pastor’s wife, I suddenly receive a spirit of revival.

But seriously, when someone like Challies escapes the Ponderosa and raises the ire of watchdog bloggers, it becomes great entertainment. I am anticipating much humorous back and forths!

John B (#34):

You could certainly see the differences in the thread posts from before the time Ingrid made her readers aware of Challies blog and after. Like someone flipped a switch.

I read Tim’s post well before Ingrid sent her peeps over there, and noted to some of the other .info authors that (at the time) the conversation in the meta was pretty rational, even among those who disagreed. I purposefully chose back then not to point out (on .info) Tim’s post, as some of the afore-mentioned peeps hang out here too, and I didn’t want to be the one responsible for subjecting such a nice guy to them.

(Not decrying Joe at all — by the time he posted, it was too late.)

Challies wrote: “I am referring to blogs that specialize in sharing bad news.”

If an ODM is offended by the article they must aggree that they specialize in sharing bad news and are thus guilty of “car wreck” blogging.

Yeah – that’s news to me… I’m currently two months into mediation vs. 3 SSM proponents on Warren’s wikipedia article, and if they had their way, Warren would indistinguishable from Fred Phelps re: his view of gay marriage…

I cannot understand how Steve Camp repented about his attitude toward Mark Driscoll a couple of days ago, and then he defends Ingrid here in the comments. A lady commented that her pastor was called an “American goat herder” just because he was thankful for President Obama even though he did not vote for him and is pro-life.

Like I said before, it will be interesting to watch who gathers with who. The isuues will dissolve amidst the friendships. I am almost to the point where I believe NO ONE believes in sola scriptura, and some don’t even believe in scriptura.

HEY RICK F.!!!

SOMEONE JUST SAID YOU WEREN’T A CHRISTIAN OVER AT STEVE CAMP’S BLOG! Just thought you’d want to know. Jim W. writes:

“Rick Frueh-you are pathetic. You are the most two-faced, deceitful excuse for a man I have ever seen. You go to Mike Ratliff’s blog, or here and butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth. Then you go over to your “friends” at C.info and post the most critical digs at people like John Chisum. You get right into the swing over there, condemning, mocking, laughing, trying to get everyone to go along with your lies and hate. You sicken me. Don’t ever try to tell me you’re a “Christian”.

Would you like to accept Jesus now as your Lord and Savior?

RA

Jim W is a Jim Bublitz wannabe blowhard leftover…

He is sad… and thinks himself god-almighty in his judgments against all others.

iggy

Alice,

I am always sorry to hear about someone who is harmed in this so called “truth war”. My heart goes out to those who are victims.

I am always amazed in the callousness of those who claim to be protectors of God and His truth… as if God needed our protection…

Truth is the real victim in the truth war…

My prayers are with you.

iggy

I thought Challies’ post was excellent. I thought Steve’s was a good post too–except at the end where he named certain blogs as “defenders of the truth.” I liked that Challies didn’t name any names. I did find it interesting that certain blogs then rushed to defend themselves–and also based their defense on the fact that readers wrote them letters thanking them for their “ministry.” I was under the impression that Christians write for an audience of One and we measure our ministry against God’s Word. Color me surprised. I was trying to get SoL in particular to examine something wrong they had done to a brother in Christ. I tried to do it in a gracious way. I contacted them individually. And then I brought it out on Steve’s forum because I thought he would be a good moderator of that.

Oh well. I’m done.

The most amazing thing is….

C?RN.info does not see itself in true light!

This is at least as hateful as you see the typical ODM blog, and, whats worse is the approval of the gross misrepresentation of Biblical Christianity on this blog, shown by the example of the OP’s and mostly by the comment threads.

You all speak of grace, and demonstrate hate.

Look in the mirror, do not let the plank break it.

Uh-oh. Now Ingrid has reprimanded Steve for being gracious to Richard Abanes in the comment section.

“I love the smell of hatred in the morning!”

Rick,

Over at Steve Camp’s blog, Ingrid posted the following at against Steve…….and it now seems to now have been removed:
______________
Steve,

If you are a “brother” to Richard Abanes and are prepared to fellowship with him after he destroyed Ken’s Apprising website, has repeatedly called me and several others “cult-like” and dangerous and sponsored his own Slice mock-up site for months, ridiculing and insulting me online, than something is terribly wrong. Richard continues his slander online and appears at any and every website that references discernment blogs. He is a serpent who shows up at every opportunity to inject venom into the reputation of those of us who seek to warn about false teaching. Steve, you have publicly said you will fellowship with him and have called him brother. Thank you for stating where you stand. I am glad to know that this is how you view unrepentant slanderers. You want to fellowship with someone who finds this funny. Note the comment section. Perhaps my husband should call you. [ Ingrid posted a link to itodyaso ]
________________

R. Abanes

#48 & #50 have to be the shortest replies Abanes has ever left. There’s got to be some award for that. Writer’s Block?

“Abanes wept.”

OMG–what’s happening in the blogosphere?? On what should be one of the most holy and blessed weeks on the Christian calendar, all of this is stirred up? Even though I have been blogging here for a while (and reading the ADM blogs for a while), I still stand amazed at times at just how mean and spiteful people can be. (Not here, mind you. None of us here are like that. Not even Rick. )

Ah, well. So much for grace.

Jerry – I openly confess I have my moments that embarrass grace.

Jerry, you mean the one I posted that Camp removed?
RAbanes

He took it down?
I guess that’s easier.

He’s between a rock and a hard place.
He’s publicly changed course on his tone, but he probably doesn’t want to suffer at the hands of a rabid Ingrid.

I feel bad for him.

It’s still amazing how she’s seething over Challies. The guy never mentioned names.

She indicts herself.

And when Ingrid laments over Steve Camp and RA getting together sometime, she makes this creative hyperbolic statement:

“The whiff of sulfur in the air is overpowering.”

As I said after the post by Challies became known, there will be much back and forth, even among friend who choose sides.

It’s a shame and travesty that ALL parties concerned call themselves ‘Christians’. You are all to be pitied as you ALL continue backbiting and devouring one another. It’s like a grade school playground scuffle. How our Lord must be heartbroken over this immature childish behavior by ALL involved. I do not take a stand with ANY of you, I stand solely with our Lord Jesus Christ and urge ALL of you to stop this sinning against a Holy God as you belittle one another. I call ALL of you to repent! How can we proclaim His truth when we are entangled in such a childish war of words? Please brothers and sisters, swallow pride and humble yourselves before Almighty God and cry out to Him for mercy and forgiveness. Then, let us get back to doing what we are SUPPOSED to be doing; edifying one another, loving one another, and proclaiming the Gospel to the lost!!!

lyn,

I hope you copy and pasted your comment in your emails to Ingrid, KS, etc. etc.

We wouldn’t want you to be hypocritical about it.

lyn – we are happy to provide a venue for your brain dump.

I stand with Jesus. (and Paul sometimes )

Sadly, most of you appear to be a bunch of self-righteous arrogant hypocrites who delight in verbally trashing any who dare cross your path. Fruech delights in playing both sides of the fence, commenting at Mike’s blog, then coming here and letting his true colors fly as he trashes all who oppose this little ‘click’.
May God be merciful as you let your pride guide you.

May God be merciful as you let your pride guide you.

He is.

“Fruech delights in playing both sides of the fence”

And when Ingrid e-mailed me with the same accusation I informed her that since I did not ardently subscribe to a certain “camp” I am sometimes attacked by other camp dwellers who demand I sign a pledge for their camp.

Lyn, I am an ordained Baptist pastor and you are unscripturally levelling an accussation against me with out your husband present. I am sure you find that corner of truth as offensive.

95:

Yep, I knew it.

If you’re really concerned about “all” lyn, then dump a scolding here at Ingrid, et. al.

But you probably won’t and can’t.

Ya see, Lyn, I never claimed to buy into the ODM way of looking at life…

So when I critique them, it’s not because I claim to be pure or anything else.

It’s because the measure that they have measured with is simply getting applied to them.

It’ s not about me.
It’s about you and your friends.

Ya’ll made the claims, ya’ll have made the arguments. Ya’ll have “set the measure” in your interpretations and holy self-glorification.

Ya’ll just don’t like it when it gets applied to you.

You just came on here ranting about ‘EVERYONE’, but it’s clear that you aren’t concerned about ALL.

If you wanna name names and have the “high ground” it seems strange that the only people you’re taking issue with directly can be found here.

by the way…if by “click” you mean a small group or “faction” it’s spelled “clique”.

May God be merciful to you as your self-glorifying anger guides you.

If not laying down for religious fascists is sin, I’m glad to be guilty.

Jerry,

Here is what I posted in response to Mike Ratliff. It was removed by Steve. But to Steve’s credit, he also removed Ingrid’s attack against him and me……
_________
Ratliff: I can find nowhere in the New Testament where we are to just sit back and tolerate sin in the Body of Christ. Nor are we to allow false teachers to go unchallenged.

RA: Agreed.

But another issue is: Are certain “discerners” CORRECTLY idenifying such things as “sin,” “false doctrine,” “false teachers,” and “heresy.”

THAT is the main problem, as I see things. Because the answer to that question is a thundering “NO.”

No one is arguing, least of all me, against accurately, lovingly, firmly, and graciously correcting error and correcting those in error. But the problem is that some so-called “watchmen on the wall” are not very good watchers. Instead of shooting wolves, they’re trying to kill sheep!
______________
Ratliff: The key here is Sound Doctrine.

RA: The key is love. You can have all the right doctrine in the world and if you do not have love, it all counts for nothing:

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing” (1 Cor. 1:3).

This is a passage LONG-FORGOTTEN by the loudest and most destructive of the Online Discernment Ministres (ODMs).
______________
Ratliff: I for one do not like confrontation or the ugliness of the skirmishes the ensue when the ones with whom we contend decide to fight back with their man-centered “logic” while refusing to submit to God’s Truth.

RA: Some of those with whom you contend, in reality, are actually fighting back with truth — and they are the ones in true submission to God’s Truth. Unlike some of these watchbloggers, I do not equate “God’s Truth” with the use of false information, manipulation of quotes, disinformation, fear-mongering, hate rhetoric, half-truths, and concealment of facts. I don’t see that exalted anywhere in scripture.
______________
Ratliff: We have God’s Truth and it is not negotiable nor is something in which we can compromise.

RA: Nor is it something we should use as if it were an executioner’s ax.

You might say to Steve, “I agree with your list,” but refute that list by your own actions.

I quote from your website: “[Abanes] is unregenerate and his focus is just like that of Rick Warren. It is all focused on the person and never on God. I often wonder if they are also partaking of the Open Theism kool-aid.”

Please explain how that statement follows Steve’s 9-steps…..

As for Steve’s actual nine steps, I would add a nice fat #10:

10. Is what I am saying really true about this person and does it accurately reflect their true beliefs, or might I be guilty of some form of slander if I make this accusation (Ex. 20:15; Ex. 23:1; Prov. 19:9; Ps. 101:5; Titus 3: 1-2; 1 Peter 2:1).

Richard Abanes
P.S. Steve, you can contact me via the email contact icon at the bottom of my home page of Pop Culture Mix: http://www.abanes.com/
I look forward to spending time with you when possible.

Jerry,

Here is what I posted in response to Mike Ratliff. It was removed by Steve. But to Steve’s credit, he also removed Ingrid’s attack against him and me……
_________
Ratliff: I can find nowhere in the New Testament where we are to just sit back and tolerate sin in the Body of Christ. Nor are we to allow false teachers to go unchallenged.

RA: Agreed.

But another issue is: Are certain “discerners” CORRECTLY idenifying such things as “sin,” “false doctrine,” “false teachers,” and “heresy.”

THAT is the main problem, as I see things. Because the answer to that question is a thundering “NO.”

No one is arguing, least of all me, against accurately, lovingly, firmly, and graciously correcting error and correcting those in error. But the problem is that some so-called “watchmen on the wall” are not very good watchers. Instead of shooting wolves, they’re trying to kill sheep!
______________
Ratliff: The key here is Sound Doctrine.

RA: The key is love. You can have all the right doctrine in the world and if you do not have love, it all counts for nothing:

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing” (1 Cor. 1:3).

This is a passage LONG-FORGOTTEN by the loudest and most destructive of the Online Discernment Ministres (ODMs).
______________
Ratliff: I for one do not like confrontation or the ugliness of the skirmishes the ensue when the ones with whom we contend decide to fight back with their man-centered “logic” while refusing to submit to God’s Truth.

RA: Some of those with whom you contend, in reality, are actually fighting back with truth — and they are the ones in true submission to God’s Truth. Unlike some of these watchbloggers, I do not equate “God’s Truth” with the use of false information, manipulation of quotes, disinformation, fear-mongering, hate rhetoric, half-truths, and concealment of facts. I don’t see that exalted anywhere in scripture.
______________
Ratliff: We have God’s Truth and it is not negotiable nor is something in which we can compromise.

RA: Nor is it something we should use as if it were an executioner’s ax.

You might say to Steve, “I agree with your list,” but refute that list by your own actions.

I quote from your website: “[Abanes] is unregenerate and his focus is just like that of Rick Warren. It is all focused on the person and never on God. I often wonder if they are also partaking of the Open Theism kool-aid.”

Please explain how that statement follows Steve’s 9-steps…..

As for Steve’s actual nine steps, I would add a nice fat #10:

10. Is what I am saying really true about this person and does it accurately reflect their true beliefs, or might I be guilty of some form of slander if I make this accusation (Ex. 20:15; Ex. 23:1; Prov. 19:9; Ps. 101:5; Titus 3: 1-2; 1 Peter 2:1).

Richard Abanes
P.S. Steve, you can contact me via the email contact icon at the bottom of my home page of Pop Culture Mix: I look forward to spending time with you when possible.

“Fruech” and “click”.

She likes hard “K” sounds…

Gentlemen – Let’s ride to the sound of the guns!!

Remember the Alamo!!

nc – I usually operate in a buffered cone when dealing with people like that, however, you have seen my comments when I actually engage someone who I believe has seriously misrepresented the gospel or has sought to destroy another human being – believer or unbeliever.

That is when my personal brain dump commences!!

I have disagreements with many who write and comment here, I disagree with RA and Rick Warren on issues, and you all know my views on McLaren and others. But I will say publicly that God has used this stupid blog to help me conform to the image of Christ more than any other. I have learned to show grace, I have learned to love, I have learned to forgive, and I have learned to assess things apart from the approved script.

Chris Lyons has been generous and gracious toward me, and I still from time to time interject comments that are at odds with the general views of most here. But isn’t that what makes us the CHURCH? Isn’t forbearance and iron sharpening iron what the Scriptures teach? And I suppose some of you have had to temper your views about someone like me simply based upon my interaction here.

I am roundly criticized for commenting here, but as is my way, I do not care. And when I comment on Mike Ratliff’s blog and offer a compliment on one of his posts, I am criticized for that since it is outside the prescribed formula for whatever.

I e-mailed Steve Camp and commended him for his change of attitude toward Mark Duscoll, and though I do not see Mark as does he, I appreciate someone who not only is open to spiritual change, but posts it publicly at the expense of being criticzed by his peers.

Ingrid’s post that swipes at Camp is a revealing expose into the dark world of being an approved ODM that allows for no variance from the script etched in STONE.

If anyone here ( by this I mean all contributors and pro .info sycophants) actually believed what they are writing they wouldn’t even acknowledge the discernment bloggers. This post and complete idots like Abanes, would not be here. Youi can explain to the Lord at the white throne why you are all yucking it up at other’s expense.

As for the synagogue of satan, I believe that refers to the talmudic judaizers.

Rick, LoL. Ditto. We cool as far as I can see. I’d love to get into a fight with you about Ken Silva over a cup of Starbucks —- or a good steak, depending on who is buying. LoL. I confess……I’m a cheapskate.

RA

I knew the Slicer back in the day. I used to date her when I was at UW when she was a chain smoking nervous little brainiac in control of the conservative group on campus. Well it was a kinda conservative group anyway. I have some great college photos from that year that will show a different side to Ms. DISCERNMENT. I’m thinking of getting them online and let people get a glass of discernment on the rocks if you know what I mean. There’s lots of religious hypocrisy these days. Fascinating group of bloggers really. She seemed to be breaking away from fundamentalism when I knew her 20 some years ago so i don’t know what went wrong.

I would also suggest that Abanes do a study on Ahab and Jezebel.

This blog is loaded with thumbsucking manipulators, i.e. Ahabs.

Ingrid doesn’t even come close to a Jezebel.
Abanes on the other hand is a pompous self-promoting jerk.

One visit to the self monument to himself he calls a website should be sufficient to understand where he is coming from.

He is an apologist?
Spare me.

Abanes is more like a character assassin. He is like the snake in Genesis. Really.

Why can’t you guys just give Ingrid some grace? I thought that is what you guys were all about? You sure didn’t show it to my Pastor.

In reading this site, I lumped it in immediately when I read Challies’ post. I didn’t think of SOL or Apprising. I was surprised you guys didn’t feel the pain, because all this site is really is a hate site: Hatred for and attacking of other Christians following their calling in Christ.

Thurstin….

Oh brother… tell you pastor to give us some grace… I mean, he has outright lied about me more than once…
It is on his blog… just look up “iggy”…

I forgave him over and over and still do…

iggy

Richard,

Now you know the standard you must live up to… hope you can achieve it!

iggy

I do not follow MacArthur, or Abanes, or Calvin, or Aminius, or Warren, I follow Jesus and that my friends is a full time job keeping my own feet on the right trail.

I must admit at times I’m drawn to follow Iggy, but I battle it!

Don’t let Paula know you have “picture envy”…

ROFL…….I can’t believe you said that.

RA

“Hey Ingrid, maybe we should remember that sacrifice year round and have it temper our attitudes, words, and how we view other people. But if not, we’ll let this week suffice until next year.”

I think it is possible that Ingrid has a mental problem. I’m not a Shrink, and I don’t play one on TV, but I see some of the signs in her posts; the paranoia, self-agrandizment, and some sign of the highs and lows. She doesn’t appear to be a balanced person.

It makes me uncomfortable with the Ingrid bashing – maybe we should all take SOL off our RSS readers and just leave her alone.

I think it is possible that Ingrid has a mental problem. I’m not a Shrink, and I don’t play one on TV, but I see some of the signs in her posts; the paranoia, self-agrandizment, and some sign of the highs and lows. She doesn’t appear to be a balanced person.

It makes me uncomfortable with the Ingrid bashing – maybe we should all take SOL off our RSS readers and just leave her alone.

Well spoken gordo. I’m rather hardbroken right now, primarily because of personal issues (about 10 minutes ago I had tears in my eyes) but also about this whole ODM-thing that’s going on and is really making it hard for me to understand how the people who claim to be the most truthful believers in the Word of God also seem to be the most vicious and vile commenters on the web. Reading SOL and AM had me doubting God more than reading about Bultmann or Marcus Borg.

But I fear that sometimes commenters (including me) on this blog are sliding into the trap of doing the all to obvious. Anyone with a kernel of discernment in him should see, that AM, SoL and A Little Leaven have very little to do with biblical discernment. But we should be careful to avoid becoming bitter over their hateful lies and sarcastic or cynical over our bitterness. Ms Schlueter may have serious doctrinal issues that need to be pointed out, her view on the world may be fundamentally distorted as her lies show, but she also may have other serious issues and needs our prayer and our love, not our mockery. Same goes for Mr. Silva and the a lesser degree for Chris.

This is the week in which we remember God’s suffering, his death and his resurrection. It should also be the week in which we are heartbroken over the state of doctrinal divorce our church is in and we are called to pray and act towards unity (not in doctrine as John vehemently insists on) but in God’s grace, Jesus death and resurrection and the spirits comfort.

In all these postings I don’t see anyone addressing the real issue. Rick Warren lied on national TV and he got caught.

He also lied about Senator McCain being in a “cone of silence” during his interviews with the presidential candidates.

Rick Warren wants to play both sides of the field. He wants to”say” he stands for biblical truth, and he wants to be loved by the gay community and the world. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth and has no problem lying.

When asked by Larry King about the Iowa legislation to legalize gay marriage he said,”I’m oblivious to all that.” His concern is the genocide in Rwanda. Yet, he is not concerned with the genocide of abortion in this country.

We need to wake up and stop defending this man who has led many churches to follow His purpose driven agenda-social activism minus the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He reiterated it on Larry King…its all about Rwanda and the Recession!

Did anyone here hm mention the life-changing power of Jesus Christ?

Let’s stop bowing down at the altar of Rick! He is deceiving many! There is no room for “grace” when so called pastors lie and are double-minded. Scripture says that such are “unstable in ALL their ways.”

Its time Christians stop being spineless!

How did Rick Warren and John McCain get involved in this?

I think I’m going to enter my cone of silence… This is getting too weird for me.

In all these postings I don’t see anyone addressing the real issue. Rick Warren lied on national TV and he got caught.

Nope, this is not the issue here.

When asked by Larry King about the Iowa legislation to legalize gay marriage he said,”I’m oblivious to all that.” His concern is the genocide in Rwanda. Yet, he is not concerned with the genocide of abortion in this country.

http://www.christianpost.com/Society/Ethics_rights/2008/12/rick-warren-not-satisfied-with-making-abortions-rare-17/index.html

Let’s stop bowing down at the altar of Rick! He is deceiving many! There is no room for “grace” when so called pastors lie and are double-minded. Scripture says that such are “unstable in ALL their ways.”

There is ALWAYS room for grace.

Jorge (#139):

There is no room for “grace”

Lord, please forgive me for the string of profanity that escaped my lips when I read this. Your Word tells us to “be angry and sin not”. In my absolute rage at this insane twisting of the very foundation of Your gospel, I also sinned.

And now we have Warren actually being crucified over at, of all places, PHOENIX PREACHER — they’re actually taking the same line Schlueter has taken: i.e., Rick Warren lied and said he is not against Gay Marriage.

CAN ANYONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD!

RA

Rick Frueh, i must address you first because i grow tired of the whole line of:

“they are attacking an ordained pastor”

Like man made ordination means anything. How many “ordained” pastors out there are preaching a false gospel, lying from the pulpit, spreading false teachings, stealing people’s money, etc. Rick, i am sure you would agree that every pastor that is out there filling a pulpit is not truly called of God to be doing so. That is why you have the Benny Hinns, Todd Bentleys, etc of the world deceiving THOUSANDS of people. So Rick, please do me a favor and stop the indignation of someone would dare to question an “ordained” man of God. Ordained??? by who? fellow man?

Ah, and now i come to my favorite “apologist” Richard Abanes. Have you threatened to bring legal action against a fellow christian lately? Why people would give you a platform to spread your screed is beyond me. But let me correct you on your mentor, Rick Warren’s latest backpedaling. He did lie.

Warren said:

“During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement. Never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going”

But when you watch this, it contradicts what he just said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4QqGbQmU0

The whole matter hurts Warren’s credibility.

see:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/576620.aspx

http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3989&Itemid=53

Richard, just admit….Warren lied about Prop 8

you know i feel safer at night knowing you fine folks here at CRN Info are the watcher of the watchers…..oh, the irony of it all

148:

He’s a goat herding hater of the Gospel.

Ick…doesn’t sound good, does it?

Sam,

Yes that does effect Rick Warren’s credibility…. so lets look at the statistics.

Rick Warren= 1 known lie

ODM fighters for God’s Truth in the truth War= Hundreds and hundreds of known lies

So the bottom line is that Rick Warren comes out much more credible than any ODM out there.

Think about it…

Sam – Two things.

1. You missed the important female element of my “indignation”.

2. Please forward that to Ken who has many times played the “paster/teacher” card, and many times not in the female context.

OK, resume the Warren piñata party.

iggy,

Warren has lied in the past. One only need look at his trip to Syria as proof where he said no video was taken but yet video was taken.

Who knows what else he has lied about.

Nice standard there for Warren. If he lies less then the hated ODMs, he is all good in your book. Great logic.

Sam – that particular video was released to Saddleback – it was not a press release or extra-church campaign for Prop 8. And what he said in the interview with King was:

During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never — never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.

The week before the — the vote, somebody in my church said, Pastor Rick, what — what do you think about this?

And I sent a note to my own members that said, I actually believe that marriage is — really should be defined, that that definition should be — stay between a man and a woman.

On October 24, Warren issued a note to Saddleback and this video to the different services at Saddleback. Additionally, he was criticized by a number of Evangelical groups for not offering public support to the Anti-Prop 8 fight.

See here.

From the article:

The pastor chosen by President-elect Barack Obama to give the inaugural invocation backed Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in his home state of California. But he did so belatedly, with none of the enthusiasm he brings to fighting AIDS and illiteracy.

When other conservative Christians held stadium rallies and raised tens of millions of dollars for the ballot effort, there was no sign of Warren. Neither he nor his wife, Kay, donated any of their considerable fortune to the campaign, according to public records and the Warrens’ spokesman.

In fact, his endorsement seemed calculated for minimal impact. It was announced late on a Friday, just 10 days before Election Day, on a Web site geared for members of his Saddleback Community Church, not the general public.

So – he didn’t lie.

Bottom Line.

Oh, Richard,
The lengths you will go to to defend your great mentor.

Warren told King:

““The week before the vote, somebody in my church said, ‘Pastor Rick, what do you think about this?’ And I sent a note to my own members that said, ‘I actually believe that marriage really should be defined – that that definition should be saved between a man and a woman.’”

Warren does more than just stating his position on gay marriage, he tells people that they too should support prop 8 and he says that he is sending out a not to pastors as well. Is that not a form of activism? He is supporting prop 8 and then telling others to support prop 8 as well and then goes on to say he is sending a note to other pastors about it as well. Looks to me that goes beyond just informing his members.

OK, Mr Abanes, parse words all you like but the bottom line is he lied.

Purdue will beat Notre Dame this year.

OK, I lied.

Also, as Chris L and RA pointed out… facts seem to mean nothing to those bent on hating Rick Warren… truth is twisted to meet the need to attack and spread hate…

Really it is sad…

Have you ever read 1 John? There are some verses on hating one’s brother in Christ that should be of interest to you…

iggy

Sam,

Why do you feel it necessary to hammer on this?

What is the fascination with all things Warren by you people?

If he’s the goatherding “pastor” that you all say he is…then he is destined for destruction.

praise God for his righteous judgement.

Sam,

Again, RW states two possible lies… OK lets say they were outright lies…

Then how do you justify the hundreds from people like Ken Silva and Ingrid and other who lie daily on their blogs about others… do you let then have a free ticket to lie card? Do they join some “liars club” and pay you monthly dues?

It is this outright double standard that hangs out there and you are not facing… there is no credibility from you if you allow lies from one camp and then scream about lies in another… again… have you never lied in your life?

Hate is not a Christian virtue Sam… grace is… put down your stones and repent…

iggy

iggy,
It really is sad that when someone disagrees with another that you have to bring out the tired, old hate accusations. Disagreement does not equate to hate.

Facts seem to matter little to Chris L or Richard Abanes in this case.

Warren said he never endorsed Prop 8 the entire time it was going but yet he is on video endorsing it and asking others to support it as well. Parse words all you like but it is plain to see he lied.

Sam,

Then what do you call it… if it is not grace it is to be called something and you are the one casting stones….

Is that not hate? You hide it under a false idea that it is righteous anger or whatever… but it is what it is… and I am sorry you can’t identify it for what it is…

So Sam, have you ever lied? Please explain how you allow others to lie but are so focused on RW?

iggy

I am at a loss to understand how this thread got convoluted into a conversation about Rick Warren. Don’t you people have your own comment sections, at your own blogs, where you can hate on the people you hate instead of mucking up this thread with your insanity?

Yes, but they don’t like to allow comments, because someone might disagree with them.

Facts seem to matter little to Chris L or Richard Abanes in this case.

Really? In the political world, an endorsement is a statement made to the public, primarily via a press release.

Warren’s “endorsement” was in-house, to his congregation and pastors – not a press release or public endorsement.

As the Christian Post (a source often cited by Ingrid) notes:

When other conservative Christians held stadium rallies and raised tens of millions of dollars for the ballot effort, there was no sign of Warren. Neither he nor his wife, Kay, donated any of their considerable fortune to the campaign, according to public records and the Warrens’ spokesman.

In fact, his endorsement seemed calculated for minimal impact. It was announced late on a Friday, just 10 days before Election Day, on a Web site geared for members of his Saddleback Community Church, not the general public.

So, can we parse the statement and declare that Warren did “endorse” Prop 8 (in the Webster’s definition of “endorse”). yes.

Can we take the graceful, Christian view that Warren’s use of “endorse” is the political one, which implies lending public support? Yes.

Personally, I’d rather take the Christian option, rather than being a graceless, legalist windbag.

But that’s just me.

And then Sam blamed it all on iggy…

Who cares about proposition 8? It’s just straightening the tie on a corpse anyway. What changes in God’s Kingdom if the government recognizes gay marriage?

Nothing…absolutely nothing.

I sense a disturbance in the ODM force.

You see how the tape recorder “play” button just keeps being pushed no matter what facts or explanations are given?

CLICK – “Warren did endorse Prop 8. He encouraged others to support Prop 8. He said that he was sending a note to other pastors as well. But yet he says that he never gave an endorsement in the two years that prop 8 was running. That is a lie.” – CLICK

CLICK – “Warren did endorse Prop 8. He encouraged others to support Prop 8. He said that he was sending a note to other pastors as well. But yet he says that he never gave an endorsement in the two years that prop 8 was running. That is a lie.” – CLICK

CLICK – “Warren did endorse Prop 8. He encouraged others to support Prop 8. He said that he was sending a note to other pastors as well. But yet he says that he never gave an endorsement in the two years that prop 8 was running. That is a lie.” – CLICK

RA

Sam,

I would point out that by jumping into a thread ostensibly not about Rick Warren, immediately going for the throat with the “liar” accusation, you’ve (at that point) already started off on the wrong foot.

If you will note my first response (#159), there was no characterization of your accusation at all. I was trying to lay out the facts for you in a charitable fashion (interestingly, the reason I have all of the quotes and links is because I’m in wikipedia mediation vs. a bunch of gays who are trying to prove that Warren is a rabid homophobe – go figure).

Warren knows that he made the video statement to Saddleback. He’s the one who released it! In his statement to Larry King, he said he made no endorsements, and in the next sentence mentioned this video (note) to Saddleback. So, simply from the context, it is obvious he did not consider the video a political endorsement.

Now, when there is a plausible, probable, charitable explanation for behavior, I try to go with it (though I’m sure I don’t always succeed), as I think that is at the heart of ‘loving your neighbor’.

So, when you continue to beat the “Rick Warren is a liar” drum, ignoring all charity – particularly when it’s been reasonably spelled out for you – there’s little to do but surmise that you have bought into a psychological need for Warren to be a liar, and left reason aside.

can people not disagree without being called a “hater”?

Certainly – Rick Frueh and I disagree on a number of things, from eschatology to whether one can or cannot work with unbelievers doing missional service work, and I do not consider Rick to be a “hater”. He disagrees strenuously with Mark Driscoll’s attitude, and I happen to like it (to a degree).

Where you and Rick differ, though, is that Rick acknowledges where his opinions exist, and he’s willing to extend grace in situations (like this one) where he may not like/agree with a particular person, but he’s still willing to take a charitable view of their words/actions, rather than immediately jump for the liar/heretic/apostate card…

To be a “hater” means being unwilling to allow for error or apology or to admit error and apologize…

Sam:

Considering that Warren makes reference the publicly available video IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE after denying an endorsement would indicate that Warren was not *lying* about his actions but rather *explaining* his actions.

I’ll give you a hypothetical scenario:

What if I went to the drugstore, and someone filmed me doing it?

I’m on Larry King the next day, to answer accusations that I’m a druggie. I say, “I’ve never gone anywhere searching for drugs, but I do go to the drugstore on occasion, I must admit, to fill prescriptions.”

How much sense would it make for someone to then put up on a blog my statement that “I’ve never gone anywhere searching for drugs…” followed by a link to a video of me going to the drugstore, all in order to accuse me of lying.

That makes no sense. I’m explaining (maybe even *justifying*) my actions, but not lying.

You see, words mean things. We must be careful with them.

I have a problem with the Purpose Driven Life and the superficiality and shallowness I feel it manifests. I have a problem with youth ministers and their ‘goatee gospel’ riding motorcycles into the sanctuary for the “X-tReMe G-Zusss”. I have a problem with the movie clips as part of the sermon when the sermon is more on the movie clip than the Gospel itself.

I actually agree with the ‘watchbloggers’ most of the time when they expose this stuff because what happens in these ‘churches’ that are considered as being ‘cutting edge’ will end up coming to a church in your hometown months later when a pastor sees the clips on YouTube, saw that ‘it works’ (numbers and money start coming in) and attempts the same thing to yield the same results while at the same time cause division, heresy, compromise, and castigation that never gets documented online because the church’s lawyers have already threatened to sue the first dissenter who leaves and talks…

I attend a church where this started to come into the sermons and it even got to the point of doing PDL, denying the scriptures as being without error, quoting McLaren and Spong, wanting to remove the pews and replace with couches and candlelight, calling the church ‘campus’ and service ‘celebration time’ and sinners ‘pre-Christians’, showing clips from Family Guy and Extreme Home Makeovers, etc. to the point where the elders woke up, said ‘enough is enough’ and eventually fired the pastor and steered the church back in the right direction.

The ’split happened’, the pastor filed a grievance with the denomination. Denomination rules in favor of the church as to (1): the firing was with due cause and (2): the essential tenets such as scripture is without error was clearly violated, but ruled against the church on HOW they fired the pastor (elders had a board meeting, agreed to fire the pastor, and called the pastor minutes later to the church with boxes and told the pastor to clean out his office now! and had the locks and alarm codes changed overnight- then notified the staff early the next morning when staff could not unlock the doors to enter the church). Pastor was disciplined and had his credentials suspended until completion of discipline but left in the middle of it to start an emerging church thereby losing credentials. Church was placed under ‘district oversight’ with the district overseers overseeing the elders and the church for a year and a half until satisfied that everything was back to normal and in order.

I know I’ve rambled….

My problem with the watchbloggers are:

(1): How they go about exposing – The majority of the time, they are not quoting a reputable news source. It is as if they have ‘Internet teams’ scouring the Internet and constantly visit these ‘controversial’ church’s own webpages deliberately looking for this stuff and publish it as ‘breaking news’ or “fill in the blank church EXPOSED!!!” with a venomous spirit behind it savoring that ‘their day of judgment will come…’

(2): How they go about castigating those who disagree with them – It is as if they have ‘Internet teams’ constantly scouring Google, and the search engines of Blogspot and Wordpress.com looking for any mention of the name of their blogs and their personal names looking for some ’smaller’ blogger to ‘bully’ and a fight to pick. Mention their blogs and names in disagreement and see how fast they e-mail or respond harshly on your blog

(3): How they view themselves as ‘righteous anger”, ‘the persecuted and attacked ones’, and also ‘the last days purified elitist remnant’ and everyone else doesn’t come close or belongs in their league.

(4): How they decry ‘good ole boy / family nepotism politics’ but one of the authors of a famous watchblog is the child of a ‘regional broadcaster in Christian radio in the midwest US’ and works for their father’s (who actually has his own bio on wikipedia) own Christian radio network.

(5); How they turn against their own when one of their own disagrees on a ‘non-essential’ doctrinal issue or a opinion about a certain person. But the problem is that in their scope of reasoning, ‘non-essential’ doctrinal issues ARE ESSENTIAL and failure to be in unanimity instead of unity is ‘departing from the Faith’

In most cases, the stuff they bring to light needs to be discussed and exposed. In 99.99% of the cases, the spirit behind, the mannerisms used, and the ‘bullying threats’ of the ‘exposing’ is outright wrong and ungodly.

______

Rick in comment “37″ was right when he said

“We never had a woman as the head or spokesperson of any part of our discussion. We would have brought Tom Schlueter before the church and demanded he reel in his wife.”

I was raised conservative pentecostal with a ‘prosperity doctrine’ word-faith slant and those leaders would have done the same thing if they found out that a woman was to the point of ‘usurping’ male authority either in the home or in a ministry role.

“I love when people defend ADMs by claiming Abanes sued Silva’s website”

LoL. Yeah, I do love that one……

RA

BTW Richard!

I wanted to publicly thank you for sponsoring the ODMafia. I had not been aware you were doing that until Ingrid stated you were. Up until now I thought I was doing all that… and an occasional writer that helps… All I thought we did with you was make fun of you once in a while… so I expect those checks to start coming in since Ingrid never lies about people and is never wrong…

Can it be a big check please?

iggy

Iggy,

I find you and your website devoid of all humor!! It’s senseless, satanic, evil, unfair, biased, emerging, Obama-backed, pro-abortion, non-xenophobic, heretic-friendly, rock-music-based, and filled with an improper degree of levity. I rebuke you and COMMAND you to repent!

(There, that should cover me).

RA

But your still sending the big check… right?

These are the comments I’ve made today in my “crucifixion” of Rick Warren
You judge the veracity of Abanes statement for yourselves.

“The reason that the Warren videos are so disappointing to me is that I’ve never heard anything to say that Warren is anything but a good and decent man.

I think this is a case of having too many voices in your ear and trying to be be too much to too many…”

“He is doing much good around the world and to not recognize that is wrong minded and unfair.

Warren needs to address the issue he has now raised and do so clearly and biblically.”

That doesn’t mean that all the vitriol that has been slung his way is prophetic and true.

“Warren has made a serious error.
That does not mean that he is a tool of anti-Christ leading the church on the road to Rome and/or hell.

He has ascended to heights that would make any of us lightheaded…I will reserve some grace and hope that he finds his grounding again.”

“I have acknowledged that this is a serious issue…one that I find disturbing to say the least.
The flip side is that I believe that Warren loves Jesus and he loves people…and that is worth wanting to be gracious to him.

We can be critical without damning all the man does or is.”

“The list of people that we could pin those accusations on is long and burdensome.

On the other hand Warren has set an example for the church in how to live out our faith…and it is the lack of living it out that has made us a joke.”

As I have observed before, it is possible to confront the error of others using a methodology that violates the very Scriptures you are attempting to defend.

It would resemble finding insubordinate sailors on your ship, and sinking your ship to get rid of them. There are many times when showing love and humility toward those in error will not bring them to repentance, however it will glorify our Lord which is always supreme.

God has never asked us to change hearts, He has asked us to keep ours broken before Him.

Any Christian worrying about desecrating the house of the Lord in reference to a church building is a Christian who is reacting emotionally rather than Biblically.

Michael Said:
April 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
I knew the Slicer back in the day. I used to date her when I was at UW when she was a chain smoking nervous little brainiac in control of the conservative group on campus. Well it was a kinda conservative group anyway. I have some great college photos from that year that will show a different side to Ms. DISCERNMENT. I’m thinking of getting them online and let people get a glass of discernment on the rocks if you know what I mean. There’s lots of religious hypocrisy these days. Fascinating group of bloggers really. She seemed to be breaking away from fundamentalism when I knew her 20 some years ago so i don’t know what went wrong.

This is supposed to be a Christian website?!! If so, this comment should never have been allowed here. I have never read anything more despicable in my life. It is slander, malicious, hateful speech… an effort to besmirsh someone’s character. It is ‘evil speaking’ that Ephesians 4:31 warns us about. What you claim to know about Ingrid 20 years ago (if you knew her at all…which I doubt) is totally irrelevent to this discussion and, frankly, none of anyone else’s business. Except that you want to make it our business because you are delighting in tearing her down and attacking her personally. What you said is not only hurtful and demeaning to Ingrid, but it demeans the Body of Christ as well.

Ephesians 4:31 ….Paul lists things we must remove from our lives if we are to grow in grace and honor Christ. “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.”

Bitterness: a refusal to let go of a wound or forgive a past wrong.

Wrath: a stronghold of resentment coupled with a hope of gaining revenge (your threat to post supposedly damning pictures online)

Anger: exasperation…outburst or slow burn of indignation toward someone

Evil speaking: Words that tear down, speaking that is malicious, hurtful to another

Clamor: outburst, making a big issue out of something rather than trying to help or heal

Malice: the desire to see someone suffer…it is a devlish spirit.

We are to put away these evils from us.

You, sir, are NOT a Christian. And, if you are one, you are disobedient as the scripture above clearly points out. By our works we will be known. If you call yourself a Christian, then act like one. Don’t use the excuse (which I am sure is coming next) that Ingrid is guilty of all the above. Even if that were true, you still have to act in accord with Ephesians 4:31…for Christ sake following His example…He was reviled, but reviled not again. We never have the right to slander another or speak evil as you have done insinuating things …defaming a person’s character. The blog host here allowed this comment to stand unchallenged and I think that says a lot about this blog. You accuse Ingrid and others of tearing down….but you are pretty good at that all by yourselves.

This is supposed to be a Christian website?!! If so, this comment should never have been allowed here.

Rose,

We do not delete comments here – and the things some folks say (as in this case) sometimes reflect badly on them. You will notice that everyone has ignored this particular post, if I’m not mistaken, and being ignored (rather than engaged, even negatively) sends a message, in itself. None of us are interested in digging up dirt from Ingrid’s past.

Digging up dirt for prurient gratification is Ingrid’s line of work, not ours.

I have never read anything more despicable in my life. It is slander, malicious, hateful speech… an effort to besmirsh someone’s character.

Apparently you’ve never read Slice of Laodicea.

Ephesians 4:31 ….Paul lists things we must remove from our lives if we are to grow in grace and honor Christ. “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.”

Bitterness: a refusal to let go of a wound or forgive a past wrong.

Wrath: a stronghold of resentment coupled with a hope of gaining revenge (your threat to post supposedly damning pictures online)

Anger: exasperation…outburst or slow burn of indignation toward someone

Evil speaking: Words that tear down, speaking that is malicious, hurtful to another

Clamor: outburst, making a big issue out of something rather than trying to help or heal

Malice: the desire to see someone suffer…it is a devlish spirit.

We are to put away these evils from us.

Perhaps if Ingrid allowed comments, you could post this where it would be most appropriate – on her “ministry” blog…

The blog host here allowed this comment to stand unchallenged and I think that says a lot about this blog. You accuse Ingrid and others of tearing down….but you are pretty good at that all by yourselves.

My apologies for not replying to every comment I disagree with.

In a number of cultures, the greatest insult you can send is to not dignify rude speech by even acknowledging it. [In this particular vein, I've not watched a single news program since last November, and I've turned the TV off when the leader of the US is speaking. But I digress.] I could care less what he has to say, in the same way I could care less what Ingrid did 20 years ago…

Rose (#205):

The blog host here allowed this comment to stand unchallenged and I think that says a lot about this blog.

I have to say that this statement, in the context of support for Ingrid, is hilarious.

In a previous incarnation of Slice that allowed comments (all of which were moderated), many commenters were permitted to give definitive statements of the (in their eyes) unsaved nature of others. These always were allowed to “stand unchallenged”.

Oh, and the blog host there stated (in an email to me) that it was “unbiblical” to even guess at the salvation of another. So even she saw what was going on in her own meta as wrong.

So what does this “say about [her] blog”?

Bo, you’ve got it good if all you do is vomit a little bit. My entire computer crashes every time I refer to SoL as a mini….

Ken Silva and Ingrid are trying to fill out the command in the BIble to bear others burdens by informing Christians of the false doctrines and heresies out there. Of course, those who actually are the ones promoting false doctrines and heresies are not going to like them very much. What they are doing is completely biblical, no different than what Jesus said about the Pharisees. No different than what we are commanded to do, to bear one another’s burdens, to rebuke out of love, to fight heresies and contend for the one true gospel. That is what Ken and Ingrid and others seek to do.

But, I would like to know: What is Rob Bell’s view on homosexuality? Is it a sin? Is homosexual marriage wrong? It would seem that ROb Bell, since he is supposed to be such a godly man and truly contending for the faith and guiding others in truth, would have a clear answer on issues like this that are so clearly spelled out as sins, and awful sins at that, in the Bible.

So, what is Bell’s position?

I believe veiled innuendo about someone’s past is wrong. I applaud the non-delete policy here. Suggesting that there will be no flesh or no mistakes on a blog is fantasy. Interaction on a blog is messy, but those who have ears to hear will benefit, sometimes from those they would least suspect.

Again, Ingrid’s past is just that. All of us have done things we would not want dug up from under the blood. Our problem with Ingrid is the present, not the distant past.

She, like others, is deceived concerning the kingdom of God. Sometimes people subconsciously attempt to compensate for past sins by becoming overly judgmental about people’s sins in the present.

In the end, we are all Christ followers tryin’ to get through the day.

There has been a consistent statement by contributors and most commenters here that a person’s past should be off-limits. Digging at people’s past is disgusting.

Rick is right. It’s about the present.

Chris L.: I don’t see how speaking out against homosexual sin is analogous with preaching the gospel or advancing the kingdom.

RA: It’s not, of course. But what this is all coming down to is:

“Rick Warren didn’t answer the way I WOULD HAVE ANSWERED, so he’s wrong and he’s a heretic”

“I WOULD HAVE REALLY PUT GAYS I THEIR PLACE, but Rick Warren didn’t and he didn’t, so he’s REALLY saying homosexuality is Okay”

“Rick Warren didn’t say WHAT I THINK he should have said, so clearly, he’s a liar about what the Bible says about those nasty gays”

……yada yada yada.

It comes down to far to many Christians wanting clones of themselves. They want others to not only behave like they do, but preach like they do, think like they do, see everything the way they do, and answer questions like they WOULD (if they were asked). Here’s a good example that was posted over at Phoenix Preacher:

“Rick Warren has one of the biggest platforms for Christianity in this world today- and he refused to condemn this sin on a national talk show with a huge audience. It is as simple as that.”

See? This person is not actually rebuking Warren for anything he actually stated! He’s lashing out at the man for basically NOT saying what he thinks he should have said. Now, we not only have Christian Thought Police, but we have Christian Talk Police. How medieval.

RAbanes

Rose,
OK, I’ll come out my cone of silence for this. I don’t know what site you’ve been reading, but it certainly must not be this one.

I challenge you to find one post here that attacks Ingrid personally or says anything about her past. There may have been some comments that have crossed the line now and again, but that is bound to happen, since we don’t delete comments, and people are free to comment as they wish. We have actually reprimanded commenters when we feel things are not appropriate, but we do not delete comments.

When we do respond to Ingrid or another writer’s posts, we do so based on the merits (or lack thereof) of the piece. Refuting a writer’s fallacious claims is not an attack.

Rose,

First off – no one hates ken, Ingrid, etc… w’ve mad that patently clear. We may hate what they stand for, and their unChristlike methods – but they are our siblings in Christ.

If Ingrid is so wrong in her approach, then why don’t you show her a better way to disagree by showing love for your enemies, offering prayers for them here and sharing Christ.

We do. By addressing the points not the people, by allowing discussion, by not focusing on outward methodologies, and by never questioning someone’s salvation – in all these ways and more we strive to show them a better way to discuss.

*snort*

Rose, go email Ingrid with your same complaints. You’re barking up the wrong tree here, your lack of consistency for the target of your defense undermines any other point you would make. You’re bitching and moaning about a single comment by a single commenter and ignoring the gigantic website of lies and dirt digging run by the woman you’re defending.

Here is a suggestion for ya: Shut the thing down …get out on the street with a handful of tracts, and take the gospel to the lost and stop worrying about tearing into discernment ministries. If you are truly children of God, then get on about His work. That is where I am headed in about an hour. What a beautiful day to share the Lord.

Oh, the irony of posting a comment on a blog telling it to shut down… It’s kind of like sending a letter to the editor of the newspaper telling it stop printing. But, whatever…

As far as your admonition to us to “do the Lord’s work”, I have to say that I hope you aren’t suggesting that handing out tracts is the only work we can do that’s for the Lord. Personally, I’d like to think everything I do can be for God’s glory. I know I fail to reach this goal many times, but I don’t think there are certain activities I do which are sacred and others that are secular. My whole life should be a reflection of Christ living through me. And frankly, if the only way I can demonstrate that is handing out a tract to a stranger, I believe I would have failed to live the life God hopes I would somewhere along the way.

Perhaps that gets down to why we write. We happen to believe that people who are Christians should live like it, and we believe that those who are brothers and sisters in Christ do not deserve to be slandered by other Christians, even if they may be mistaken or in the wrong to some degree. Think of it like this. If you had children, and one of them spent a large portion of his life pointing out the wrong the other was doing or trying to catch his brother doing something wrong, would you consider that healthy? Would you not try rectify this behavior in some way?

Now I don’t think that many of the ADM type blogs will really change apart from God changing their hearts, but I do believe that we can at least try to defend those being attacked and try to build one another up here.

Rose, the commenter has been admonished in the past and still comes and does this… we ignore it as it is not appropriate…

‘As defined by who.?’..you will know them by their fruit, sir.

‘As defined by who.?’..you will know them by their fruit, sir.

Good answer, actually.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

So would you like to do a comparison on the posts on a typical ADM blog with that list? Do you really want to go there?

‘As defined by who.?’..you will know them by their fruit, sir.

And we know the ADMs by their fruits of slander, outright lying, and focus on the exterior of the cup.

The point of the post was this: When a discernment blog posts an article of correction concerning the discernment blogs themselves he gets attacked. It then becomes obvious that many discerners are not open to correction even from one of their own.

And when one of the discernment ministries makes overtures of grace toward an agreed object of hate he immediately comes under fire for leaving the approved script.

It is telling and sad.

Michael made unfortunate innuendos about Ingrid and he was addressed and dismissed by me and others. Why continue to whine?

When you have open comment threads there will be comments that are unfortunate. Chris L. cannot police all comment threads and many of us help out. The easy route is to allow no comments at all.

I hope no one who I knew way back comments here with information about me. It would make anything about Ingrid look tepid. Christianity is about redemption and that includes all of our pasts, both before Christ and after.

I hope no one who I knew way back comments here with information about me. It would make anything about Ingrid look tepid. Christianity is about redemption and that includes all of our pasts, both before Christ and after.

Oh, don’t worry, it won’t be on here. There are several other sites you’ll have to monitor however.

The reason why Chris P thinks that MacArthur uses scripture is because he agrees with what MacArthur says, not because he uses scripture more, or better than the people he disagrees with.

Well, this is an interesting conversation. Chris P sounds like someone I know from a congregation I once served. Let me guess…about 70, widow, phone attached to your ear, refuses to move beyond hymnbooks and organs, inclined to withhold tithes when you dislike the preacher?

Certainly is a lot to be jealous of there.

He’s right, I’m Catholic.

Rick – someone needs to up your meds (or back off on them)… Unless you’re referring to your aberrant worship of that school up in South Bend…

RE: 247

Oh no, Mr. Redfield. Chris P is way more progressive than you would think.

Here’s his church’s mission statement:
Four Corners Community Church exists to win people to Jesus Christ and bring them to his eternal family through membership, tosee them grow to Christ-like maturity, and equip them to effectively fulfill the mission of evengelizing the world and ministry to the Church to use whatever means necessary to fulfill his mandate for us in order to magnify his name

If you look closely you’ll see that, in so many words, that’s a postively “purpose driven” mission statement and possibly proto-emergent–what with all the “whatever means necessary” talk.

I assume they have some super-duper awesome secret methodology too since what is apparently “evangelism” has been upgraded to evengelizing. It must be open to all…”even you or you or you can be one of us”.

Now that I think about it…there is so much to be jealous of.

Add to it that in numerous threads it’s clear that Chris P has attained to the Godhead–specifically being Holy Spirit 2.0–he’s a pretty upwardly mobile guy.

“and bring them to his eternal family through membership”

What does that mean?

Sorry, r2b…

this has been a running issue for a while…

You’re right though…

@nc I understand that the constant assaults make it very hard to refrain from snapping back at the attacker. But I think we need to constantly remind us to keep our rebuke at the factual level and do so lovingly.

I still appreciate the good work the people on this blog are doing, it has really been a blessing to me in the last few weeks and has given me hope that there are some people left in the Christian blogosphere who live by God’s word as well as God’s grace.

I apologize for last post. I have now seen that the facts of the matter have already been discussed.

As stated above, Warren flip flopped on the issue to advance his own quest for political correctness. Two crucial videos on the issue:

http:://onesheep.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/rick-warren-goes-both-ways/

Warren has explained the statement in the interview by saying he meant he never came out publicly in favor of Prop 8. To his church he spoke as a pastor, but to the public he never endorsed Prop. 8.

Those who are fair will accept this, those who are already anti-Warren will of course pounce upon it. Predicability is the essence of the blog world. Not love, grace, forgiveness, forbearance, or humility.

Nope – pedicability.

* Note – those who stray from the prescibed predicability (Challies, Camp, etc.) will be predicably chastised.

“Politics rots people’s minds away, I believe.”

Chapter 2 in my coming book.

THINGS RELEVANT

* Politics is a labyrinth with no exit
* Who cares how people vote morally?
(i.e. I like Prop 8 but I hate Roe v Wade)
* Not one gay person stopped because Prop 8 was approved
* Rick Warren is every bit as political as most of his detracters
* The Gospel, stupid, the Gospel

There will be a quiz.

nc – Come over to the dark light side!

Remember, I am your father…

octavato,

I’m not sure Challies really back-pedaled in the article, so much as expanded/clarified his earlier point. I like that he also compared watchblogs to “Christian Porn” (a comparison I made a couple years ago and caught no end of grief for, but one I still maintain is true), which is pretty much what they are…

I also like Frank Turk’s first comment in his Pyro follow-up:

People who are not qualified to be elders in their local church — specifically, people who cannot find a local church to which they belong and are thereby held accountable — are by definition not qualified to be a source of discernment.

Ingrid Schlueter, there’s a call for you on line #1…

That’s really, the ultimately hilarious thing about all this.

The ADMs like to compare themselves to Paul, or Elijah or the variously other angry yet holy types (though those are few and far between even within those individual’s lives) yet they’re not even qualified to sit as an elder in a local congregation much less as a prophet from God.

Good form, octavato.