Wow – looks like “Jerks for Jesus” has way too many vacancies to fill…

What’s with that singing in the car halfway through?

I think Ingrid should be alerted of this. It’s Circus Church material.

I love how drinking a single beer at the beach is now sinful.

Goodness. Someone should have told Jesus not to make such tasty wine at that little celebration he attended in Cana.

Too bad the God of the universe wasn’t in touch with his own perfect righteousness and perfect laws to bust those wedding guests for hiding cups of wine behind their backs and say to them, “Yo, didn’t you have to go to the market to buy that?!”

Sick and sad.

RA

Great post! I could not agree with you more. Some how, some way, these people miss it.

I disagree with both Erica and RA, most of these people get exactly what they’re looking for.

RICK: Those are the bold witnesses for CHrist. Anyone can scream and yell and enjoy patting each other on the back, but it takes a real bold witness to rub shoulders with Muslims in a strict Muslim country for five years before you see one convert.

RA: Yeah, or how about just going out to a quiet lunch with a Mormon bishop and sitting there for 3 hours without a PA and loudspeaker — actually talking to them, sharing with them, loving them, listening to them, hurting for them, trying to understand them, showing the scriptures to them, and praying for them. No cameras. No fighting. No drama.

I suppose it’s not really as glorious or glamorous as standing on a beach and screaming at babes in bikinis while being able to feel so very holy, but not truly interacting with anyone — but then again, where else are you going to see babes in bikinis?

RA

This is what happens when you think that what you do or say brings someone to saving faith. So in reality they are like you, just using a different method.

Why is it always the same elite handful of “holier than thous” posting and commenting?
I exclude myself from that obviously more spiritual group, since I am never agreement with your twaddle.

I tried the street witness style… it was to impersonal… anyone can preach at people… but it takes time and commitment to love people…

iggy

There was One who enured the contradiction of sinners against Himself. There was One who ate with sinners and winebibbers. There was One who wasn’t ashamed to call these sinners “friends”. There was One who came in their likeness and lived in their midst.

They brought a woman fresh from a spring break party and Jesus said He would not condemn her. There was One who said He did not come to codemn the spring break partiers, but He came to deliver them through His own sacrifice. God so loved the spring break crowd that He gave His only Son.

The gospel is good news…real good news. If I be lifted up on the beach I will draw the spring break crowd unto Me. He sees them as sheep without a shepherd, not as targets of verbal abuse.

Fred Phelps receives much abuse as well. The test of a Christian witness is not how much persecution we can muster up by offensive methodologies, it’s how much persecution we can endure without saying a word about it and still be willing to absorb it in order to continue to love the persecutors.

As Jesus hung on the Cross he shouted out, “My dog listens better than you!” They hurled insults on him so he stated, “God condemn these sinners to what they deserve! They know the truth so there is no excuse for them. They don’t deserve grace or mercy! They should get what is coming…”

Jesus spat at them, then with a loud shout said, “God, into you hand I commit my spirit… now go get these ungrateful sinners as they are our enemies and I know, Father, how much you hate sinners!”

Jesus died, and was buried… and though he rose from the grave… no one cared about the angry God-man who hated sinners and called the wrath of God on people…

The end.

iggy

Vengeance is mine sayeth Pastorboy…

iggy

Aaron, actually, the video is of my friends and I, and it is tagged pastorboy.

Lies:
Aaron 1
Joe: 18 I can find
Me: none

Do me a favor. Imagine for a minute that you are back in college. You’re in the middle of midterms and your busting your tail to get everything done. Next week, you’re going to Florida for vacation. You’re a strong Christian, (lie)who loves God and has worked hard to live a life that honors him. (lie)You strive to live a pure life that is honoring and glorifying to God. (lie)Finally, you fly down to the beach. Ahh, sweet bliss. You go out to the beach, open a cold beer and plan on having a fun day.(lie)
Now, change gears a little. You’re out of college but you and your friends have been going to Florida for years. You fly down, slip into a bathing suit and grab a cooler and some chairs and head to the beach.
Suddenly, in the middle of your throwing a football back and forth a Muslim shows up. Now, he’s not just trying to engage people in conversation and talk to them,(lie) he’s with a group of friends and they’ve brought a P.A. system with them. It squeaks every five minutes or so. (lie) He starts yelling (lie)that you’re a whore (lie) and that you are on your way to Hell (partial lie). There’s no discussing with this guy(lie). In fact, if you come up close to him, he’ll point his finger at you(lie) and call you a whore(lie)/drunk(lie)/slut (lie), whatever over the PA system.
Now, you could move. You could pick up all of your stuff and head on down the beach but should you have to do that? Does this Muslim, who just says that he’s doing Allah’s work when the cops show up, have the right to make you listen to him? Does he have the right to call all who don’t follow the Koran pagans? Do you have a right to some level of peace and quiet? Should the Muslim be arrested? Can I be honest? I think that he should be.
When the good Muslim is confronted, he points out that many of his religions earlier followers debated people publicly and openly(kie). When you point out that happened in synagogues and other places where it was expected and not on a vacation front(lie), our happy Muslim begins to praise Allah for the persecution he is under for sharing Allah’s good news(lie). When you call the police and they show up and threaten to have he man arrested, he again praises Allah(lie), and mumbles about the persecution he is under. He laments the state of our country that won’t allow him to make you listen to his “preaching.(lie)” Finally, in a desperate act you fling a football his way that knocks him out cold. One of his compatriots will later write about how blessed he almost was to have died while serving Allah.
Parenthetically, imagine if this same Muslim street preacher showed up at certain ODM’s/ADM’s vacation? Can you imagine the blog posts? After you have fun with that for a few minutes go back to your vacation…
Would you be angry? Would you just want the guy to shut up so you could enjoy your vacation? I imagine that a lot of these people felt the same way about a man preaching at them about Jesus.

That doesn’t concern me as much. Joe seems particularly adept at getting a rise out of you, but is otherwise pretty harmless.

Claiming that the Muslim method for evangelism is threats of murder is anything but harmless.

John – if that was you in that video, and that is your method of evangelism, why do you film and post it? And why wasn’t there any filming of someone responding to the gospel? I do not understand the motive for filming it and it seemed like much of the video was intent on showing some of the worst behavior of these kids.

Would we not expect drunken, lost, spring breakers to be somewhat hostile to preaching, especially that type of preaching? I just do not understand the filming of those events without even one sinner coming to Christ.

PB is responsible for PB.

Precisely the problem. Just like all the other ADMs, totally unaccountable to anyone.

“Who is responsible for Joe?”

Erica.

#27
There were many stories, but the two I remember most vividly were the kid who came to me and told me the story of his life and family troubles, his drug addictions, his sadness over having nothing to live for, and his plan to kill himself that night had he not heard the message. He wanted more information. Through tears and remorse, he struggled to understand a loving, grace filled God who could and who would forgive him for everything he had ever done. I prayed with him that he would find Christ.

Another girl was in front of our scaffold visibly impacted by the message (tears, etc.) at the session where I was purposely knocked out. When I came to, she was now verbally weeping and crying out to God for forgiveness, and encouraging the others around me to do the same.

There were many other conversations that ranged from the why and the how of what we were doing through deep theological conversations with Christian students from other ministries. We heard stories of repentance from people. No one can judge the legitimacy of their conversion in a single day, but they testified to it.
#28 We film for our protection and for the protection of the people we are speaking to, we film all interactions with police and other officials. It is also a training tool, an encouragement for others to be bold and to preach. I did not get permission from any of the students I filmed one on one to post their stuff on the net, and there was some pretty private stuff on there, so I won’t. But we don’t preach out of some desire to get a notch on our belts like some down there who were keeping tabs on how many said a sinners prayer. No, our success was measured in whether or not we were obedient in preaching the word.
#29
Well, Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, room. When a professed christian uses terms like f*ck, mother f*c&er, etc., is drunk before noon, and is dressed immodestly while proudly stating they plan on fornicating during spring break, it is a pretty good indication. But you can refer to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and know that these behaviors are indicative of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and verse 11-12 which indicates that we were (past tense) these things before, and we are no longer partakers of these things.

Thank you four the honest questions. The rest of you can hate.

The rest of you can hate.

Is that seriously what you think? That people here hate you?

That makes me sad.

Joe, next time you have a problem, be a man and contact me face to face.

Its at the beginning of the last paragraph.

I have a feeling that if Jesus had yelled and condemned the sinners at Matthew’s party he would have been welcomed by the Pharisees instead of crucified by them.

Joe,

This is why I will not have coffee with PB, you just never know when he will flip out and he seems to use veiled threats… which of course he will deny… but read in a way, PB is an angry person who may resort to violence if provoked… such as the statement of using his car to run over Bin Laden…

Personally, I see PB as ill and in serious need of help.

I appreciate his boldness, yet in that boldness he needs to temper it with love, kindness and respect for those he is attempting to bring to God’s kindness that leads to true repentance.

We need to pray for PB…

iggy

#46
Iggy, you are the one who uses veiled threats that you know how to handle yourself, a 300 plus lb ex-biker who used to roll with the Hells Angels or something….

No PB… that is not how it went… but truth elludes you… and reality shifts with the sand with you…

iggy

Admit it PB, right not you are out of control angry… you need help… seek counselling please.

iggy

whatever, Iggy…whatever.
ruach.

Confess your sin PB and be set free… that is the start of healing…

What if Rob Bell showed up on your vacation? (and preached)
The world would agree with him. Luke 6:26 pat him on the back, and pass him a beer.

PB,

I don’t agree with Rob Bell on all things, but I don’t hate him and need to misrepresent what he teaches… or make fun of how he looks…

But I would gladly have a beer with him and discuss in a friendly manner what we agree and disagree on…

Disagreement is not sin… anger is… hate is…

Confess your sin and be set free PB…

iggy

What if Rob Bell showed up on your vacation? (and preached)
The world would agree with him. Luke 6:26 pat him on the back, and pass him a beer.

You have no idea how the world works if you think anyone can show up on a beach full of vacationers and start preaching and anyone will do anything but get pissed off.

And what’s your problem with beer? All of the dead theologians you’ve turned into idols by redacting their histories enjoyed a good brew.

I would probably offer Rob Bell a beer…

It’s interesting to me that this “offering a beer” thing is like the epitome of scandal. The whole irony of Jesus turning the water reserved for ceremonial cleaning into wine for a party seems to be lost on some people…

#64
So much so that they used it as a justification not for drinking (not wrong) but getting drunk (wrong)

Ephesians 2 backs up my argument, actually:

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

We were sinners who were objects of wrath because we were trapped in the consequences of our sin. We sinned because we were “far away” from Christ. We are”brought near” by the blood of Christ. We are now part of Christ’s household and we aren’t imprisoned by our old desires.

Sin wasn’t our problem, per se, but rather that we wanted to sin, and that our separation from God trapped us in a viscous cycle.

God doesn’t just remove sin. He gives us a new heart.

#68
I stated that you are full of LIES
There were 19 in that post, 20 if you say that it was not directed at my friends and I

You are just following your leader Rob Bell and Bullhorn. At least he actually was kind of direct.

And why does he film videos, anyway?

PB: Aaron, actually, the video is of my friends and I, and it is tagged pastorboy.

RA: It’s interesting, at least to me, that you’d choose to go to a beach where you could see a bevy of bikini-clad nubile young things scampering around uninhibited. Oh well. That’s another post, I suppose.

Now, as for your methods, they are unbiblical. You reflect neither the teaching/preaching style, nor the evangelism style, of Jesus Christ — the best preacher who ever lived. You don’t even mirror John the Baptist.

John did not run around to where unbelievers were trying to relax and then scream at them like an insensitive nut. The people WENT OUT TO SEE John (Luke 7:25).

Jesus primarily spoke to people (preached/taught) on a person-to-person, relational basis as he traveled from city to city. And when he did indeed speak to large crowds, again, these people came to hear him.

Even if what you did were actually biblical, then I fail to see why you and your friends found it necessary to scream & yell at people. Why didn’t you simply:

- express your own faith in God,
- talk about or own testimony,
- tell everyone about the PERSON of Jesus Christ and share some of the things he did in the Bible,
- do a comparison of different religions and finish about the uniqueness of Christianity….

There are dozens of ways to do what it seemed you were attempting to do. I didn’t hear an ounce of love, compassion, tenderness, joy, peace, kindness, understanding, hope, or anything else vaguely Christian in all your ranting and raving.

You and others like you seem to feel that getting people upset, hurting people, making others angry, and making sure they hate you is biblical. It’s not biblical — it’s twisted and sick. And, more importantly, it harms the spreading of the Gospel and misrepresents Jesus.

So, I would ask that you stop using the Bible as an excuse to be obnoxious. And also stop using the need for evangelism as an excuse to soothe your own psychological itches that can only be scratched when creating “persecution” for yourself via insensitive barking at people.

That’s not Jesus. That’s not biblical. That’s not evangelism. That’s not God-honoring.

Congratulations, btw, you just made those people even harder to reach for Christ now because when they think of “Christian,” they’re going to see you and that asinine stunt you pulled. All they wanted to do was get a break from life and enjoy God’s creation — maybe see a street juggler or an amateur magician. Instead, they got you.

Way to go….

RA

God doesn’t just remove sin. He gives us a new heart.

Amen Phil. We are made new creatures in Christ!

I stated that you are full of LIES
There were 19 in that post, 20 if you say that it was not directed at my friends and I

You’ve not even remotely demonstrated any of the supposed “lies”… In fact, all of your “(lie)” denotations were pretty stupidly placed, and had no basis of argument, let alone fact…

PB,

I think I have stated many times that we are free to NOT SIN… and that if one continues in sin they may not be saved or have issues that need to be overcome with the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.

Yet, to say we, as believers do not manage sin… is a lie… as that is the process of growing… that we learn to manage sin so that by the power of God we learn the truth from error and learn to walk in the Spirit in purity… we may never get perfect in this, yet I can give personal testimony how God can change a person… especially in overcoming anger.

I hope you can see the error in your thinking that one must stop all sin to be accepted by Jesus… that is impossible… but we must trust Jesus in spite of what we see as sin in ourselves and believe He overcomes it in our shortcomings… that is mercy and grace…

iggy

Pastorboy,

I’m still waiting for you to answer my #166 in the last thread regarding doctrinal errors and false teachings I am spreading.

____________BEGIN
Please feel free to bring up any [of my] false doctrines concerning:

God
Jesus
soteriology
thanatology
eschatology
_______ [fill in blank]

___________________END

Am I to assume by your silence that you agree I am biblically orthodox, doctrinally sound, and committed to defending the fiath once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)?

RA

Gee PB, good thing you’ve earned your salvation by not being a drunkard or a fornicator.

Bo,

Neither I nor anyone can earn our salvation.

Just so you know, it is by Grace alone.

PB: Many believed if they simply ask forgiveness, they would be forgiven. I submit to RAbanes that is not Biblical, and it is what we battled against. It is because of the teaching of the so called Pastors he defends.

RA: LoL. First, where in the world did you get the kooky idea that I defend anyone who says all you have to do is just ask some amorphous, subjective, non-specific God that you want forgiveness and bingo, it’s done? LoL.

And as for the “pastors” (plural) that I defend, I have no idea who you’re talking about because none of them teach anything like that. Odd, PB, really odd.
____________
PB: Just because your perverted heart would think about the ‘nubile’ people running around and you push that desire off on us does not make it true.

RA: Oh, really? And you know this? You know that I am secretly pushing my own desire in that area on to you? Okay. And exactly when/how did you gain the ability to read minds?

What I actually stated in my post was that I found it “interesting, at least to me,” that you’d choose your location. Why? I’ll tell you. I found int interesting because there are actually a number of better places you could have gone, TBH.

For example, you could have gone out at night to a long line of clubbers waiting outside a club. There, to be honest, you’d get more truly decadent people just about ready to seriously sin, but with nothing to do except stand there and listen to you.

Or, you could go door to door! Hey, there’s a novel idea. Even unbelieving cultists understand that if someone invites you into their home, then you’re half-way to conversion because they are INTERESTED. They WANT to hear what you have to say. So, why not do that and film it (not very provocative, huh?)

So, I’m not sure why, if you were really interested in people not being distracted from your message, you didn’t do either one of the above and film it for the world. hence, interesting.

RA

Pastorboy,

I’m still waiting for you to answer my #166 in the last thread regarding doctrinal errors and false teachings I am spreading.

____________BEGIN
Please feel free to bring up any (of my) false doctrines concerning:

God
Jesus
soteriology
thanatology
eschatology
_______ [fill in blank]

_________END

Am I to assume by your silence that you agree I am biblically orthodox, doctrinally sound, and committed to defending the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)?

RA

Pastorboy,
Hmmm I can’t figure out how to comment on your blog or I would have this conversation there.
I am still confused. You obviously believe it is your job to remind others of their sins even those who profess they know Jesus. Do you not believe in the Holy Spirit?
Define dressing modestly for me? Is drinking a beer wrong? I don’t see this any where in the bible. Maybe you believe it is wrong for you to drink a beer, maybe you have a standard of dressing for yourself but why does others have to live by the same standards you set for yourself?

If I had time I would transcribe the videos and show the times PB stated things he claims he did not…

Funny how others can listen and hear what was said, yet PB cannot remember these things being said by him or others in his group…

Really I do think PB can’t remember… he has a selective memory and an amazing ability to reconstruct reality to fit his own version…

iggy

Eric: Define dressing modestly….

RA: Evangelists having fun at the beach with a good girl….all “modestly dressed.”

RA

PB: Well, Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, room. When a professed christian uses terms like f*ck, mother f*c&er, etc., is drunk before noon, and is dressed immodestly while proudly stating they plan on fornicating during spring break, it is a pretty good indication.

room2: Ok, were those girls at the end of the video drunk and cursing at you? All I see and hear is them saying “I’m Christian…” and someone else denying their faith. I cannot see how this is biblical. Rebuke as much as you believe is necessary, but do so in love and adequacy.

Concerning the immodesty-stance: It’s a beach! People wear swimwear at the beach.

The thing is, I’m highly ambivalent on your evangelization: On the one hand I commend your determination to go out and preach about Jesus. As Rick already stated: Paul urges us to preach, preach, preach, whether the message and methodology is well thought through, as long as we preach Jesus life, death and resurrection.

Still, I see a lot of self-righteousness and uncalled for condemnation from your crew in the videos as well as in the titles of the video. I see your team turning around the nature of sin in your message. You preach to the people that they are lost because they sin, when in fact the gospels and the epistles make it clear that people sin because they are lost.
You seem to offer no grace to professing Christians who seem to be straying from the ideal (in your eyes).
To be quite honest, if I were at that beach, I would walk up to you and rebuke you as a Brother in Christ and ask you to repent because you are utterly misrepresenting the Gospel and the Grace of Jesus Christ.
To be even more honest, if I were at the beach with my girlfriend and you started hurling hurtful comments at her because she is wearing a bikini I might just center my fist right to your jaw (which might end painful for me, I think you are about 40lbs heavier than me). I know that this is not a christlike reaction, but I’m just not sure that I would be able to direct my (justified) anger into a healthier one.

What? John lying about someone else in order to make his ridiculous accusations look better? What’s that line about history repeating itself?

As if being drunk before noon makes being drunk any worse.

sheesh.

I am not surprised that apostatw pr soon to be apostates would react in this way. It is a sign of the times. I wash my hands and shake the dust off my feet.

#106–is that a promise or a threat?

Does anyone have the gift of interpretation?

I’m not getting “…apostatw pr…

And behold – the apostate card has been played. Why did it take so long?

> I’m not getting “…apostatw pr…

means “apostates or”

Never knew I had the gift of interpretation .

or your gift…either or

The Gospel can’t be presented to someone on vacation?

No one even hinted at such a statement.

You have a point, Jesse.
And trying to balance out this comment thread is great.

My last comment sounded short, and it was not meant too.

Thanks for your input.

I must have missed the part in Acts about portable sound systems…

I don’t doubt that there was a lot of open air speaking in the book of Acts, but one thing to remember is that was a primary method of speaking to large groups of people back then. There were men who were basically professional orators (kind of like President Obama.. I kid, I kid) who went around from town to town presenting speeches on various subjects. In many ways the speeches recorded in Acts follow the pattern of these types of speeches.

It is debatable whether this method of communication is the best way to communicate with people today. The normal way of communication in 21st century America is generally not standing on a street corner or beach yelling. It seems to me that if we are genuinely interested in communicating with people alive today, we should do it in a way that they understand and is meaningful to them.

You gotta watch out for those pro-life Preacers.

I think we like to make fun of these people and mock their boldness because we would be absolutely terrified to do the same thing ourselves.

Terrified? I don’t think so. Actually, this method is much less threatening that one-on-one sharing w/ a friend or acquaintance. In such cases there’s a whole heckuva lot more on the line (relationships) than looking foolish in the public square, hundreds of miles from home where you’re unlikely to ever see the folks you’re shouting at ever again…

As I’ve noted before, in our Western society, it is much more difficult to live a life in humble service to a cause than to die nobly for one. The temptation to become a prideful martyr, along with its instant gratification are the only rewards of the latter approach…

The fact is that evangelizing in the book of Acts looked much more like that than we want to believe.

Not really. The Agora, where such debates/preaching/etc. took place in most cities, was known to have hundreds of religious speakers trying to attract people to their causes. The Hall of Scholars (in Ephesus) where Paul proclaimed the gospel was set aside for public debate of social, political and religious topics. In both cases, people went there voluntarily, for the purpose of being enlightened and to enlighten others.

A street corner or crowded beach is not analogous to the Agora or Hall of Philosophers (or Mars Hill in Athens). The better analogous situation was like what we had a week or two ago w/ Mark Driscoll on ABC Nightline (I think that was the show), or other similar situations – where the listeners are voluntary and the context of the speaking is understood and agreed to.

What these guys on the beach were doing resembled NOTHING like what Jesus, Paul, etc. did, and is little more than self-righteous chest-pounding. It makes the pounder feel good about himself, and everyone else around him doing a face-palm…

#118 – many of us in Florida have preached on some beach. We used to bring a guitar and sing and I would share my yestimony, and then would wish everyone God’s blessings. Most of the time some would come and speak with us.

It isn’t the boldness or even the passion to reach the young people, it is the methodology that doesn’t seem to be the most effective and can easily lend itself to pride and orchestrated persecution.

Rick,
It makes sense that you would give your yestimony. Since you’re not a Calvinist, you had to choose and say “Yes.”

Okay…that was lame.

#122 Joe,
If you’ll notice I used the words “we” and “us.” Of course there are exceptions, I’m certainly not calling anyone out specifically. We can disagree about the methodology, but if Pastorboy is to be believed (and I don’t have any reason to call him a liar), people were touched by the Gospel and people were saved. Personally I think Chick tracts are kind of silly, but I know people who were saved after reading one. Who am I to decide which methodologies are most effective? It’s the Lord who saves, not us.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see why evangelism like this should be mocked. They are bold and sharing the Gospel, what’s the problem?

If I had to guess, I would think that none who are critiquing the evangelist preaching, either aren’t genuinely saved or never have witnessed to any one. Wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is not wise. Please visit http://www.examineyourself.com and see if you are really a Christian by God’s standards.

Phil,
You may be right, but your assertion of inoculation is just subjective speculation. Is it more show than substance? Maybe, but I’m not sure it’s our place to say unless we know them personally.

Sorry, i meant #136

Jerry,
We didn’t see the whole day, assuming that they didn’t preach forgiveness is just a guess on your part. Secondly, repentance precedes forgiveness, too many preachers these days leave that out in favor of touchy feely grace. It should not be one or the the other, we should teach repentance AND forgiveness, the wrath of God AND the love of God. Jesus taught both, so should we.

Jose,

That’s a moot point because grace wasn’t offered. I can’t go back and rewrite what is already written. As I said, the video is self-serving blather.

Judgment has already been leveled against Christ Jesus at the cross. Now it is time for us to preach the forgiveness of sins and the grace of God who loves us–all of us.

jerry

PS–no it wouldn’t because those in the video don’t have the courage to preach the unconditional love of God.

#143–You are right. We didn’t see the ‘whole day.’ We saw the part that made those involved seem better than they actually are. Again, self-serving blather.

Jerry, read the writings of John Wesley, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainard, the Apostle Paul, Peter, John the Baptist, oh and Jesus Himself and tell me they didn’t preach the Gospel. Repentance and remission of sins will be preached in My name Jesus said. Paris Reidhead said one time which I think if you will let this word’s hit you it will make sense.

He said and I am paraphrasing, in America every one knows how to be saved, but they don’t know what they are being saved from. If I was in a town for a while I would do nothing but preach on the holiness of God, God’s justice, God’s law and when people would come up and ask me what must I do to be saved, I would whisper in their ears John 3:16

Phil #146,
I agree with your duck hunting metaphor, too many evangelists and churches treat salvation like a contest. I’m not disputing your experiences, I just try not to make assumptions about people I don’t know.

Jerry #147
Better than they actually are? Who are you to be so self righteous? Do you know those guys? If you want to debate methodology that’s fine, but you are making huge assumptions about people you don’t know personally.

MFP,

Why do I need to read a bunch of dead guys like Spurgeon, Wesley, and Edwards? Where does the Bible say that they got it right all the time? I think you are confusing me with someone else because I’m not making a case against the Gospel. I’m making a case against legalistic hate spewing and judgmental condemnation. Read the Gospel.

“Did no one condemn you? Then neither do I.” Jesus in John’s Gospel.

If Jesus doesn’t condemn, what right do any of us have to? Get over it. Your legalism and demands for human activity cannot trump the grace of God in the cross of Christ.

#149 – None of the men, except Jesus, you mentioned preached the true gospel. None. There are only three alive today that preach the true gsopel:

Me, my oldest son, and a woman from Kansas.

Better than they actually are? Who are you to be so self righteous? Do you know those guys? If you want to debate methodology that’s fine, but you are making huge assumptions about people you don’t know personally.

No, actually the video demonstrates to me exactly who they are. I said the video shows. If they wanted to appear differently, then they should have cut and pasted other parts of their day long video. Seriously, riding around singing 200 year old songs? How does that make one righteous? Holy? Faithful? Or a minister of the Gospel? Or saved?

I’m commenting on the contents of the video. I learned quite a bit by watching it.

156–no I didn’t leave it out at all. But I do note that Jesus said that to her after he refused to condemn her and not before. The command not to sin is given to those who are forgiven by grace, not to those who have never tasted.

Mr Fancy Pants,
You are misrepresenting scripture. What scripture says is:

Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Not whoever partakes in them is a fool. Its the difference between the use and abuse of one of God’s gifts.

Else, scripture is contradicting itself when it is commanded:

Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;

Not to mention the million other scriptural references to the positive use of alcohol.

158–And I praise God when he does the work of drawing someone unto Christ with his wooing and love and compassion and mercy.

Again, you and I don’t disagree on message, just method. As the old saying goes, you can draw more flies with honey than vinegar.

Peace.

You left out the part where Jesus said “Go and sin no more.” Just sayin.

The “go and sin no more” isn’t said like a scalding parent to a child. It’s a charge of freedom. Jesus is telling the woman she is free! It’s like telling a prisoner who is released, “go and live your life, and don’t enter your life of crime again!”

Sin isn’t primarily an offense against God – it doesn’t do Him harm. It harms us. It is living below what God has for us. It makes us something less than human.

Jerry if it isn’t Biblical, your method, are you really winning them to Christ? I thought I was saved when I was 16, I was told say this prayer and your in. I didnt see the depth of my sin, I wanted to use God as a ticket to get out of hell, and I was a false convert. I asked Jesus into my heart a thousand times. Preached a sugar Gospel that is sweet to the taste but bitter to the soul. and LACKED REPENTANCE. Let every man who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity

Did he just quote the verse right after “didn’t come into the world to condemn the world” and say that Jesus condemned the world?

Jerry #166
Your posts speak volumes as well.

and thus repentance becomes a works in order to be saved…

And he can’t see how this negate his earlier statements…

iggy

Jesus said, Unless you repent YOU WILL PERISH.

171–why? because I speak about the grace of God? The love of God? Visit my blog and read my sermons and you will see that you have no idea of that which you so confidently speak.

Repent = change your mind

Meta (change) noia (mind)

Repent and believe.

Change your unbelief to faith by your God given free will and with the help of the Spirit of God. From unbelief to faith – REPENTANCE!

@Jose:
Maybe it’s not about the method (PA + singing + preaching) but about the content behind the method.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that God can make beautiful things out of completely wack fire&brimstone theology. As someone mentioned: people get saved after reading a Chick tract.
Personally I commend everyone who has the guts to go out and share and I am the last to be in a position to condemn anyone who witnesses. I often find it difficult to talk about my beliefs even with good friends and I feel no calling whatsoever to place myself at a street corner handing out tracts, so I’m probably a crappy evangelist.

What often strikes me when I notice “bullhorn”-evangelization is a severe focus on judgment and Gods grace becoming a mere way of getting “our butts out of hell”. I’m not saying judgment and the truth that God did indeed save our butts from hell shouldn’t be mentioned.
But hell is not what defines Gods grace, Gods grace is what defies hell. This is what bothers me about fire&brimstone evangelization. It makes Gods grace look cheap and weak.

This

a church I know went to Daytona Beach and provided their cars as free taxis for drunken partiers. As they rode, they asked them where they were from, they shared about the ages of their own children, and they handed them some literature as they left and said they would pray for them.

is more like the grace I have found in God.

Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

So God’s love for us is dependent upon our repentance? That, my friend, is a load of unadulterated crap from the pits of hell.

Phil – I believe the crap from hell IS adulterated.

So yes, he talked about these things, but it seems to me that folks like those in the video (and at the ADM sites) are all jacked up and revved about wrath and repentance with lip-service (at best) toward love and forgiveness – and almost nothing about the kingdom….

It’s kind of amazing isn’t it? After almost 2000 years, the coming of the Kingdom of God still remains hidden to those blinded by their own religion…

Psalm 11:5 5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
His soul hates.

You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.

MFP:so the Bible that says wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is a fool, is legalism?

Legalism occurs when we take our own personal preferences and convictions and elevate them to cross-cultural commands or prohibitions. (See here for a good dissection of this).

In this particular case, you’ve taken one scripture (in a rather out of context manner, but that’s another item for another time) and made it a cross-cultural prohibition against alcohol, when the bolus of biblical teaching does not support your supposition. (Here’s one article where we discussed this in more depth).

“You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.”

I learned that from John Calvin.

This is what im going to leave you with. Read the entire book of 1 John and see if your life lines up with it and see if you are a genuine Christian. Rob Bell preaches heresy, The Shack is heresy and this room is full of heresy.

MFP is bringing up Bell, The Shack–oh, must be another Pastorboy persona.

“Why are we engaging someone who cals himself “Mr. Fancy Pants”?”

Joe – as you can see, right after he proclaimed everyone unsaved, I entered my “humorous mocking” mode. I just cannot muster up a serious conversation with someone so arrogant and goofy!

Or goofagant.

This is what im going to leave you with. Read the entire book of 1 John and see if your life lines up with it and see if you are a genuine Christian. Rob Bell preaches heresy, The Shack is heresy and this room is full of heresy.

Don’t worry, there will be less when you leave…

iggy

So God changes? The same God of the old testament is the same God of the new testament. Romans 9 it talks about God hating Esau before he did anything good or bad.

These guys are a joke… they come judge and condemn cast stones then self righteously stomp off to brag about how they told us so…

Sad really… how they miss the basics… I mean… they claim they eat meat… but really do not even seem to be able to digest milk… yet love to chew on other believers…

iggy

“Romans 9 it talks about God hating Esau before he did anything good or bad.”

Wrong. Esau was pinching his brother Jacob in the womb.

Jesse: You left out the part where Jesus said “Go and sin no more.” Just sayin.

He also forgot the part where Jesus kept checking up with her to make sure that she went and sinned no more, and condemned her when she did not live up to this…

Jose:But i know that it works and it may bother 99% of them, but when that 1% repents and turn their life around its a victory.

Because the ends always justify the means. Go team! Let’s be Jerks for Jesus!

I thought I was saved when I was 16, I was told say this prayer and your in. I didnt see the depth of my sin, I wanted to use God as a ticket to get out of hell, and I was a false convert.

Or you were just an immature Christian. That doesn’t make you a ‘false convert’, just a baby. I don’t see Jesus (or Paul) adding a requirement – “you must see the depth of your sin”…

Bo: Did he just quote the verse right after “didn’t come into the world to condemn the world” and say that Jesus condemned the world?

Yes – but the Bible is just a collection of sayings that dropped out of the sky. There is no need to quote it in context.

MFP: Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

Ooohhh – you’re in trouble now, Jerry! Don’t you know they can’t be saved until they get the hell scared out of them first? That’s the only “true” conversion… Forget all that “love” stuff, it’s hell, wrath, sin and damnation that they have to fully comprehend before they can be saved. We’ve got their fire insurance policy, and they need to understand the fine print before they can join the viral marketing campaign and wait around to go to a better place.

What is your real name Mr. Fancy Pants? I thought we did not allow myterious commenters who are afriad of being uncovered. Are you blogging from prison?

Rick – he has a valid email address and a unique IP we’ve not seen before. Yes, it would be nice if he didn’t hide behind a pseudonym, but this is his first day here…

“God hated Esau the way I hate the Cleveland Browns… ”

Yea, but they’ve done works worthy of your hatred! Especially when they refuse to make Brady Quinn the starter.

Room2blog,

I can only say that I realized that this was what Romans 9 was about after I was reading and listening to a lot of NT Wright. I can’t recall if he states it, but after I read some of his papers on Paul, I read through the chapters and it was clear as a bell to me what Paul was stating and doing.

As far as Universal Atonement, there is a good article here The article goes into the difference between universalism and universal atonement…

Personally I do not like the term as atonement is what was given in the OT and is a “covering” of sins… in Hebrews we read that Jesus did not just cover our sins, but took them away once for all… so Jesus did not “cover” our sins in the same sense of bulls and goats… but was better than the OT sacrifice…

I do not know what to call myself other that UA but I would prefer Universal Propitiation…

iggy

Phil,

I think that is the NT Wright paper that I was talking about… great minds think alike…

iggy

room2blog: #181
I agree that some “bullhorns” do focus too much or all the time in fire and brimstone and forget the grace and love of our christ. But we are not all like the bullhorn guy. From what you see in the video it seems only fire and no grace. I just dont like that we all “bullhorns” are place in the same crazy category. Our main focus is christ and hes love and grace and yes we do also speak of the consequences of sin.

like i said methods differ, we hope that the end result of the same.

sorry, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy my vacation with the inflatable penis hanging around. (no pun intended) and the echo of the silly CRN(mis)info whine echoing in my head.

What’s that line the seeker sensitive people use? oh yeah “I like the way they’re doing it better than the way you’re not doing it.”

Paula,

First it was Richard Abanes’ testicles and now you are carrying around an inflatable penis?

What is this perverted fascination with male genitalia?

Nathanael Says:
April 7th, 2009 at 9:25 am
The rest of you can hate.
Is that seriously what you think? That people here hate you?
That makes me sad.

Isn’t that what you all think of Ken and Ingrid? Man, the double standards in this entire thread are suffocating. wow.

Nate, I never claimed to be nice to those who mock the truth.

Nate, I never claimed to be nice to those who mock the truth.

Well at least you’re honest…

Was Jesus just joking when He said this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

(which by the way pretty much takes away any doubt about whether or not God actually hates people as was mentioned earlier in the thread)

However, nate, you all claim to be nicer than the rest of us, and still use far more inflammatory tactics than those at whom you freely cast stones.

Really? Where has Nathaniel used tactics more inflammatory than claiming those who objected to Ingrid’s “painted whore of sodom” characterization of a 15 year old girl actually were lusting after that same 15 year old girl?

Actual examples please.

You guys and your cheap shots.

I updated my article to demonstrate some more of the actual preaching, which also demonstrates clearly the lies of Joe.

I hope he will repent, if not, I still forgive Him.

sweet heavens!

I just re-watched the vid. You really do have to be looking for it…

Get out of the gutter, Paula! Repent!

Haha, you guys didn’t notice penis boy in the background? He is pretty obvious and I say him immediately and then I thought… well, it’s spring break. But maybe I’m twisted.

Sure, say it enough and it must be true. Does it help you feel better to be able to say what I find offensive. I think it’s the true preaching of the gospel that you find offensive. You would rather compile a sanctimonious webpage where you talk about “them” and how “they” aren’t fleeing from babylon. You’d rather just throw out invectives and proclaim that which you know nothing of.
Of course, I know all of this as much as you know what offends me and what doesn’t.

Well, the other commenter in this thread was offended by the suggestion that God loves everyone. So you probably aren’t too far off here.

Throughout all of these “Gospel” presentations I’ve seen on Youtube, I’ve never heard one of the speakers actually say that God loved the people they were yelling at. I’ve heard them told numerous times they were vile sinners (which I imagine many of the people hearing already suspect), but no one telling them Jesus loves them passionately and is pursuing them. I honestly wonder why that is.

Jim’s website has this at the bottom:
If you have been convicted, encouraged, confused, or angered by the content of this website feel free to email me ~ repent_trust@yahoo.com

He forgot “eye rolling”…I wonder if that even requires an email?

oy.

I love how there’s a whole sub-genre of watchblogs whose main purpose is to determine who is and who isn’t a Christian…

I think I’m going to start one that will just be a page – “If you are reading this, you are a sinner”.

Oh…

29. How this Nation is a Christian nation page.
30. How this Nation is under the judgemetn of God page.
31. How this is all liberals and emergents fault.
32. Approved list of conservative talk hosts
33. approved list of who to vote for.

This is a perfect example why the good old USA allows abortion same sex marriage . The so called Christians are cowards they sit there and party with the world then when some biblical Christians comes they get angry and yell why are you ruining my party . Time and time i have to open my bible and show so call Christians we are not to get drunk and party . Romans 13:11.12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of lightLet us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.This is the biggest problem with these cultural christians at best they love the things of the world and hate the God of the bible . 1 John 2-15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.Open your bible for a change and read it . 2 timothy 3-16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,. This is our standard not your emergent pastor the word of God is what we judge all things . John 7-24 judge righteously according to the word of God. To sit on the beach and get drunk and criticize christians who loved the lost to tell them the truth . You need to examine yourself in the faith . 1 john 1-6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
Paul would go to the market and preach John the baptist would preach repent or perish. God is not some santa clause in heaven that winks at sin . That is the God most false converts make up in there mind God is Holy and just . Hebrews 10-31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Psa 7-11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
It is sad thing to read this post There where people who died at spring break from alcohol. There where so called christians there taking people to bars back and forths telling them Jesus loves them . There was another so called Christian walking up and down the beach saying free hugs woman there in there bath suits drunk i am sure he really was doing it for the Lord . The biblical message was always repent or you shall perish
Jesus began his ministry preaching, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.” Luke 13:3 …
I thank God for the brother who came out to preach the gospel to the lost at spring break . Just one coming to the lord is priceless. It broke my heart to come from and area where they are not to many christians and i seen alot of so called Christian partying drinking in the name of Jesus . JESUS died on the cross now i have a license to sin . I remebered the bible verse when Jesus said in Rev 3-16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. I pray they repent it is going to be a terrible day going before the God of the universe . JOB 27-8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, Though he may gain much, If God takes away his life?
Psa 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? [or] who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

Anyone who drinks fermented wine is unregenerate.

Anyone who calls others with demeaning and disrespectful names is filled with the Spirit.

There will be a test.

@Rob: I know it’s bad style to get worked up about these things… But could you please cxlean up your punkuation, orthjography and suintax and add

some line breaks (if you found any errors that might be here merely for demonstrative purposes you may keep it). It makes it easier to follow your argument, to believe that you have thought about what you write and actually read the whole friggin’ thing!

Iggy–I could ‘convert’ to Anglicanism tomorrow. There’s a great deal about it that I think is beautiful. I use the BCP for funerals I conduct.

That probably has nothing to do with #260, but I just thought I would throw one more reason out there for others to conclude I am a heretic.

My best friend is an Anglican priest.

Sorry to go off topic. Back to your regularly scheduled argument.

253: When it is apparent that someone uses notepad and does not put breaks in… it shows they do not really care if it is read… it only shows they like to pre-write something that sounds all righteous and cut and paste it in various blogs to condemn those that they see fit to condemn…

As far as I read through it, it seems Rob needs to read the bible and pray more to gain more insight as to the Grace of God. To use John the Baptist as a template and to focus on one aspect of Jesus’ preaching… shows that Rob is rather immature in his understanding of the over all teaching of the Kingdom of God.

Yes, God is Holy… but He is compassionate… and I saw no compassion for the lost in what I read from Rob…

iggy

“Denominations are the mark of the beast.”

Paul’s Second Letter to Antioch

JULIE!!!

Seriously. THAT was hilarious!

Over the past several days, and across a number of blogs, it seems as though the defenders of ODMs have not done a terrific job making their case.

The evidence is definitely anecdotal, but there seems to be a pattern of somewhat disordered, very angry, thinking present in the ODMs fiercest defenders.

And that, in the end, may very well be the greatest disservice of the ODMs.

I’ll rejoice when Rob starts actually posting with readable paragraphs.

ick.

I find this absolutely tragic. It perpetuates the legalistic notion that God cares if you drink beer. Instead of pursuing her admission that she is a sinner, instead of delving into her weak profession of faith, the interviewer pounces on the fact that she has a beer in her hand and assumes she is still living in sin because of that.

WOW – questionable methodology is one thing. But missed opportunities, perpetuating unbiblical stereotypes, and bad theology are even worse.

That’s the real tragedy here.

Yes, that’s the issue I was getting at earlier. Anyone can stand with a sound system and yell at people, but how many of them will invest in these students’ lives? How many of them will take the call from a student who’s life is in shambles because of poor choices?

Perhaps I’m a bit more passionate about this since it involves college students, and I worked in campus ministry for so long, but it really does irritate me. If the main work of “preaching the Gospel” involved yelling at people with bullhorns or sound systems, it seem America would be completely evangelized by now.

Beer is the anti-christ.

Good thoughts, Neil.

Nail + hammer = hit.

A wonderful poem, Nathanael. Just wonderful.

Who knew? Beer damned me to hell

I’m a friend of Joe’s here in G.R. My question is for John Chisham. Do you even know Joe? He’s the most direct person I’ve ever met. You’re accusations against him cracked me up. You couldn’t be more wrong about a person.

Isaiah,
My Pastor cannot answer, because the crack staff has put him on moderation for posting from his cell phone.

If Joe was so direct, why didn’t he just post the video and ask about us? I was on that trip, as was Rob who you mock and insult.

I thought I was an immature college student!

That girl by the way was DRUNK. It was before noon. And she admitted such off camera, which is why she was ashamed of the beer. She also claimed to be a Christian.

What was truly tragic is she showed up at the end of the week (that was filmed on Monday) to our preaching site…and she was drunk again!

It isn’t about having a beer or a couple of beers.It is about being a drunkard. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

And I hope Phil appreciates the paragraphs. He should look past the formatting into the truth. I have a college minister like you, Phil. He accepted all people on their Spring Break Trip including Catholics who did not even believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. They didn’t believe the little tracts they were handing out!

My Pastor cannot answer, because the crack staff has put him on moderation for posting from his cell phone.

Actually, the moderation was for switching aliases (which he’s been warned about numerous times), among other things. And even so, when he posts as “Pastorboy” (his long-time chosen alias), his posts are approved in rather short order. We don’t delete comments here, as well, so none of his comments will be deleted.

[Besides which, he said he was leaving, so I was surprised to see him back 24 hours later...]

As anyone who’s been on moderation here can tell you, it doesn’t last that long if you clean up your act (which typically has to do with avoiding aliases and/or belligerent nastiness that relies on the instant gratification unregulated commenting can provide)…

That girl by the way was DRUNK…she admitted such off camera…she also claimed to be a Christian…It isn’t about having a beer or a couple of beers.It is about being a drunkard. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

If this is the case, then it’s a poor case of editing since she doesn’t appear drunk and the focus is on the beer – as far as the video clip is concerned.

What was truly tragic is she showed up at the end of the week (that was filmed on Monday) to our preaching site…and she was drunk again!

What’s tragic is skirting her admission that she deserves the wrath of God for her sin to focus on her alcohol consumption.

Depravity and lostness is not tethered to alcohol consumption. It may or not be a symptom, but it is not the cause.

A thought of judgment, or a thought of lust, or even a passing thought of self righteousness is just as bad as being drunk. But usually when those things occur no one is there with cameras to record them.

Phil Miller Says :post 276

Romans 2:1-4

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

This is what troubles me with Phil. Have you heard of exegesis. It means to explain what the Scripture says.Phil you quote Rom 2:1-4 . why dont you quote the whole chapter lets quote where you left off Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, It is clearly talking about a hypocrite he partys drinks has sex out side of marriage then condemn people when they do it . Did you see one of the preachers drinking beer having sex out side of marriage . The stepping up to the mic and preaching against it . Phil you need to read in context what you are doing is eisogesis Reading into text something that isn’t there at all.lets take a look at the rest of the verses Rom 2:6 will judge all people according to what they have done. I thought God was a loving God now he is judging doesnt sound like the God the campus crusders told me about Rom 2:7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. Oh if you do good he will give you eternal life . You mean if i drink beer get drunk i am not doing good how come no one told me about this i have alot of christians friends with me and they drink and party with me . I even had Christian take me to bars in there van . So i would not get a Dui if i drove my car. But they never told me that i would go to hell if i didnt repent . Rom 2:8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. OH WOW GOD is upset at me and full or anger i thought God was love and would except me the way i lived . This is exactly what goes on with so called patient evangelism it is all about the flesh and not a drop of it glorify God . Instead telling the person listen the lifestyle you are living God is angry with and you are storing up wrath you need to call out to the saviour and cry out to him . He died in your place so you wouldnt have to take the wrath of God . You need to repent and live for 24/7 he cant be your saviour if he is not your lord of your life . That is biblical evangelism not this sloopy agape nonsense that breeds false convert thinking that God owes them something because they let JESUS in there life .Phil until you really understand what Jesus did on the cross for your sins and my sins you will never be able to properly evangelize . You will never glorify God in it as well . It will be a man center gospel that begs people to let Jesus in there heart . I am praying for you Phil that God speaks to you .

@Rob:

Come on, is it sooo hard to format your posting? Dropping an occasional paragraph won’t hurt you and will make your argument look much more convincing.

Rob,

Jesus can’t be your savior if he is not Life itself to you… We do not have a life, we exchange our life (our death) for His Life… which is eternal… that is what the resurrected life is all about.

We no longer live, but Christ in us does… so whatever you make Jesus in YOUR life means nothing…

We have no life outside of Jesus… so if you cling to your life even making Jesus Lord of it, you will die as you have no life in you… Only when we die to ourselves and live to Christ will we live eternally.

So if you want to pick at the bones, you are still dead in your sins by what the bible states if you are only adding Jesus to your own life.

iggy

300 Phil Miller Says

Seriously, though, I will pray for you as well. Legalism is a tremendous burden. God doesn’t love you or me more or less because of what we do or don’t do.

Certainly there are plenty of things people do that are not God-honoring and cause them to miss what God has desired for them. I do believe that God will help us to live lives that honor Him, but I also believe He doesn’t turn away when we mess up. In fact He is waiting for us to run back to Him before we decide to.

Phil i think you missed the whole point . Honor God in everything you do is not legalism .
When people cry legalism 9 out of 10 times it is something that they dont want to give up in there life . In my experience .
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If you called that legalism take that up with God .

I do believe that God will help us to live lives that honor Him, but I also believe He doesn’t turn away when we mess up. In fact He is waiting for us to run back to Him before we decide to

Good point God will help us but the key is do we want help many people at the beach that day wanted to boast in there sin and claim they are a christian that is the problem i had .
But there is one spring breaker i spoke to he told me he knew what he was doing wrong and i have no excuse for what i am doing my parents get on there knees and pray for me every day and i come out here and get drunk .

That person was honest and knew what he was doing what is wrong . I have Alot of respect in a person like that . That tells me hey i am wrong for being here please pray for me ,
But when i hear time and time that Jesus turn water into wine i get get drunk i am sorry that person needs to be warn about hell.
Like driving down the road when someone flashes there light it usually means danger ahead warning you danger danger that is what a open air preacher does .
Open air preacher can reach more people in one week then someone that does patient evangelism in a life in one week .
There where over 5000 people out there on the beach they heard the gospel death and resurection .
There where people in there hotel room they heard the gospel . From preaching on the beach .
One person heard the gospel from is hotel room and called out to Jesus and was saved . I was told that from a campus crusader .
I will give you a perfect example of patient evangelism . My friend was doing patient evangelism he gave this person a third day cd .
He was going to meet me with him but he never made it he flip his corvette over and died in coma .

Like i was saying earlier in the post you need to come out of your comfort zone and tell people the good news warn them about hell give them the 10 commandents show them why they need a saviour and then if they reject the good news love them even more .

I have muslim friends atheist etx I gave them the gospel i tell them i care about where they will spend eternity i dont want them to go to hell .
They rejected but i still care about them i go out of my way for them . But shame on me if i try to sell christianity to them by not telling them upfront who i am . God forbid if one of them die and i am doing patient evangelism .
It is not biblical you need to tell them upfront the gospel . They could die before the night is out . The bible says now is the day of salvation 2Cr 6:2. Jesus was and open air preacher paul john the baptist the bible says lift your voice up like a trumphet and show my people there sins , Isa 58 .
The problem is we are trying to change the gospel to fit the culture . Only the gospel can change the culture that is the biblical gospel .

Neil read my earlier post Patient evangelism is not biblical you need to come up of your comfort zone and be real .

What to the what?
______________
Holy Spirit

33 A.D. – 2009 A.D.

R.I.P.
______________

Sorry, I forgot that the Holy Spirit died, and that the gospel was just a viral marketing campaign for fire insurance.

Thanks for clearing that up, Rob.

I thought patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit. I fail to see why we shouldn’t be patient in evangelizing people.

Also, I don’t know why Rob is harping on this alcohol thing so much. It is possible to partake with getting drunk. Jesus drank and didn’t get drunk.

If a Christian does happen to slip up, is that the unforgivable sin? I guess there’s no grace for people who mess up.

By the way, Rob, just in case you’re wondering, I do have a beer every now and then, but I’ve never been drunk. I’ve really never had more than two in one evening, actually.

You need to tell that person can i speak to you i have something very serious i want to tell you because i care about where you will spend eternity. – Rob

I agree, and that is best done by putting down the microphone, laying off the stereotypes, and engaging that person in a conversation.

I thought patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit. I fail to see why we shouldn’t be patient in evangelizing people.

It’s a numbers thing born from a modernist mindset. The goal is to make converts (as opposed to Jesus’ commission to make disciple) and converts are made when someone repeats the formula as presented to them.

Of course, this has only developed since the enlightenment – it very “mo.”

Even the great Billy Graham realized this, and in his latter years made changes to his methods.

One service at Saddleback reaches more than 5000 any given Sunday… sooo if ho many hear really MEAN ANYTHING… then the accusations against RW should end… But they wont…

Also, this assumes that one is preaching the gospel and not just yelling “Sinners repent”… for there is much more to the Gospel than yelling “Sinner repent”… in fact that means NOTHING without the most important part… Who Jesus is and what he has done for us…

iggy

Joe,

I stated a few times PB had not given a full gospel presentation and had only a partial one… he then just got angry… it was when he was stating Rick Warren and Rob Bell did not have a full gospel…

I think that both RW and RB have a fuller gospel than the OT wrath version that PB preached.

iggy

This Friday, by the grace of God, I was in Minneapolis with my family.

I stopped by the University of Minnesota, where they had not cancelled classes. There were lots of students around.

I simply read Matthew 26-28, and gave a brief 7 minute Gospel presentation. It was called bringing ‘Good Friday’ out of the church into the world.

When I was finished, another young man and his family began to street preach. It was wonderful to see.

I wondered for a moment if this would be more in line with your sensitivities. Then I remembered; I do what I do for Christ and His glory, and for the love of people, out of the ultimate desire that Christ would receive the glory for his suffering.

I guess what I am saying is I do not care what you people think.

May God Bless you as you worship whatever Jesus it is you choose to worship. I pray that all this grace talk will become a reality in your lives through the power of Jesus’ resurrection, and that His grace would transform you.

The most common prayer in Christendom acknowledges that God’s Kingdom is not here yet and that Christians are to fervently pray for its arrival!

The Kingdom has both arrived and not here yet. It has broken into history through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ, but it has not yet fully arrived. It’s one of the basic tensions of our faith.

If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36).

You actually kind of stumbled into the meaning here. When Jesus says His kingdom isn’t of this world, He’s not talking of a location. He’s talking about the principles of the Kingdom. The “world” refers to the basic set of principles, assumptions, and motivations that drive people, governments, and institutions on earth. I like how Walter Wink puts it. He translates “world” to “the Domination System”. So when Jesus says His Kingdom isn’t of this world, He means His Kingdom isn’t run and won’t be ushered in the way earthly kingdoms are. It comes through sacrificial love and being willing to love our enemies.

The gospel is what saves nothing else then you make disciples . They have to become saved before they become a disciples .

But we are unequivocally told to “make disciples”. We aren’t told to make converts. So yes conversion is sort of de facto step to becoming a disciple, but there’s no magic formula for doing either.

This is the problem i have Chris you need to read the bible stop coming up with stuff that is not biblical .

Sorry, Rob, but you have absolutely no clue, whatsoever.

The colloquialism “is at hand” in Hebrew means that something is here and can be touched, not something is ‘almost here’. This is a common misperception regarding the “kingdom is at hand”. The Kingdom of God/Heaven was Jesus’ favorite sermon topic – mentioned more than any other. And if you read the end of Acts, the Kingdom and the Gospel were Paul’s two sermon topics.

Jesus’ entire ministry was about the kingdom, and how those who wish to follow God’s intent would live in it.

If you break down the phrase “the kingdom of God/Heaven”, the best English expression would be “God’s Reign” – which is to say, how things operate when people are submitting to God. In Jesus’ teaching, the kingdom is not about maintaining the ‘minimums’ of the law, but living in such a way as you meet the aim of the law, not just the letter of the law – Love God, Love your neighbor.

The more you make ‘the kingdom of God/heaven’ about something that will happen some day, somewhere else, the more you miss out on it. The more you are completely irrelevant to a world that is in need of it.

Which explains why shouting “your sinning!” at sinners on Spring Break seems like such a good idea to some people, when it’s really just utter stupidity and anti-Christian. It might stoke their egos, but it’s pretty much useless, otherwise.

The most common prayer in Christendom acknowledges that God’s Kingdom is not here yet and that Christians are to fervently pray for its arrival!

*zzzzt!*

Wrong again – it is a prayer that God’s rulership spread and that his kingdom would continue to increase.

Part of your problem is that you see this as a “point-in-time” event at some time in the future – conflating it with the second coming.

Charles Colson likens the kingdom of God and the Second Coming this way – In WWII, D-Day established the downfall of the Axis powers on June 6, 1944. On that day, the supremacy of the Allied powers was established and the war was decided. However, it wasn’t until V-E Day on May 8, 1945 that total victory was achieved and put into place. In the same way, the kingdom of God was established by Jesus in 33 A.D., even though the powers of evil will not have fully surrendered until Jesus’ final return.

Making the Kingdom of God about something later and elsewhere has been one of the most damning outcomes of segments of the Protestant Reformation.

My kingdom is not of this world.

Please see this article. The world, kosmos in Greek, is referring to the systems by which the world runs (power, coersion, etc.), not the physical location. Had Jesus been referring to this physical place, he would have referred to ‘the land’ and not ‘the world’.

I know this might be something you are not use to Chris but please read in context . First of all Jesus command Mar 16:15 …

Perhaps you didn’t notice, but I quoted from Matthew 28, and I did use the context.

Preaching the gospel is what saves

Actually, no. Accepting the gospel of Jesus, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, is what saves – and that salvation begins here, not someday, somewhere else.
Chris what did Jesus tell the apostles do ?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
What does the word preach mean Chris ?

If we’re going to lecture on context, Rob, let’s do so, by all means. From Mark 16:

First, let’s note:
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

Even so, let’s quote from it:

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

So, let me know when you’ve also taken care of the poison-drinking, snake-handling and tongue-speaking thing, as well.

However, all reliable manuscripts have Matthew 28 in its entirety. How does it end?

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I would note that the words used in Matthew are much more descriptive, particularly to a predominately Jewish audience – go, make, baptizing, teaching. These DO imply preaching and teaching, but they are predominantly centered on relationship and action, not just words. They are about changing lives now.

Matthew 22:29: Jesus told the Sadducees, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.”

Very much agreed. Perhaps you should take this to heart and spend a little less time on the beach…

One of the problems we have is attempting to define mysteries with the finite words and understandings of men.

Matt.12: 28 – But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The kingdom of God is spiritual, and the coming kingdom will be material, but both are the very same kingdom.

Yelling “stop sinning” at beach partiers leaves you open to them shouting back “Why do you still sin? Stop sinning!!”.

Irony, I love it.

308 neil says

First off I reject your interpretation. You are elevating one particular method to a status that is unjustifiable. If you wish to employ a certain method – fine. But calling other methods unbiblical strips you of credibility. As for respect – seriously, shouting condemnations to strangers as they pass by is a way to garner respect? Why do you care about respect anyway?

Once again no bible verses to back anything just phil opinion . Sorry phil your opinion means nothing . I quess you dont like biblical evangelism . 2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

(Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.”

phil says 309

I agree, and that is best done by putting down the microphone, laying off the stereotypes, and engaging that person in a conversation.

ISA 58 .1Cry aloud, spare not; Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins.

Here Are Two Reasons why it could not have been alcohol.

Alcohol is created by adding leaven (yeast) to grapes and then processing it at the right temperature. Jesus was celebrating the feast of the Passover when all leaven/yeast is removed from Israel . Anyone eating bread with yeast or any product that had yeast in it was “cut off from Israel”. Jesus was eating unleavened bread and drinking unleavened grape juice.

Ah yes, this old spiel… I’m sorry, but those arguments are simply ridiculous. Unfermented wine would contain alcohol as well, as even without yeast it would begin to ferment. The Jews didn’t differentiate between two – they used the same word. It seems to me that if it were an important thing, it would be clear.

As far as the thing from Leviticus, we are ministers of the new covenant, not the old. It has no effect on us any more.

There are plenty of reasons to not drink. I think that it’s wise to abstain in many circumstances, but I also don’t think we need to make up rules that aren’t in Scripture just to fit our agenda.

Rob,

Micah 2:11 doesn’t say what you say it does. It’s an abuse of scripture to cite it in the way you do.

Also, in the 3000 year history of passover, wine has never been considered chametz.

I understand you want to “win” the argument, but winning isn’t worth your integrity.

Chris L Says: 323

Sorry, Rob, but you have absolutely no clue, whatsoever.

The colloquialism “is at hand” in Hebrew means that something is here and can be touched, not something is ‘almost here’. This is a common misperception regarding the “kingdom is at hand”. The Kingdom of God/Heaven was Jesus’ favorite sermon topic – mentioned more than any other. And if you read the end of Acts, the Kingdom and the Gospel were Paul’s two sermon topics.

Jesus’ entire ministry was about the kingdom, and how those who wish to follow God’s intent would live in it.

If you break down the phrase “the kingdom of God/Heaven”, the best English expression would be “God’s Reign” – which is to say, how things operate when people are submitting to God. In Jesus’ teaching, the kingdom is not about maintaining the ‘minimums’ of the law, but living in such a way as you meet the aim of the law, not just the letter of the law – Love God, Love your neighbor.

The more you make ‘the kingdom of God/heaven’ about something that will happen some day, somewhere else, the more you miss out on it. The more you are completely irrelevant to a world that is in need of it.

Which explains why shouting “your sinning!” at sinners on Spring Break seems like such a good idea to some people, when it’s really just utter stupidity and anti-Christian. It might stoke their egos, but it’s pretty much useless, otherwise.

.The book of Daniel predicts a kingdom of God that will rule the earth (Daniel 2:44, 7:13-14, 22); the New Testament Apocalypse describes its arrival (Revelation 11:15, 19:11-16).
We pray for the kingdom to come (Luke 11:2). The poor in spirit and the persecuted await their future “reward in heaven” (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12). People “enter the kingdom” on a future “day” of judgment (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:22-30). Jesus gave one parable because some people thought the kingdom would become powerful right away (Luke 19:11). Paul speaks several times of “inheriting the kingdom of God” as a future experience (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 15:50; Galatians 5:21; cf. Ephesians 5:5), and otherwise indicates by his language that he thinks of it as realized only at the end of the age (1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; Colossians 4:11; cf. 2 Timothy 4:1, 18). When Paul wants to focus on the present manifestation of the kingdom, he tends either to introduce the term “justice” or “righteousness” along with “kingdom” (Romans 14:17) or in place of it (Romans 1:17; for the close association of the kingdom and the justice of God, see Matthew 6:33), or (alternatively) to connect the kingdom with Jesus Christ rather than God the Father (Colossians 1:13)

Chris this sounds like alot of Rob Bell heresy that wants to change the gospel to fit the culture .

Rob,
You’ve not actually attempted to respond to our actual points. You’re just sticking to your canned, poorly exegeted copy and paste answers. If you’re not willing to discuss this, I suggest you quit wasting both your time and ours here.

It’s obvious that you are passionate about what you believe, and that is commendable. It also obvious that you have quite a bit to learn, and you would do well to study things a bit more in depth before you go accusing others of heresy.

Grace and peace.

Phil Miller Says:

Rob,
You’ve not actually attempted to respond to our actual points. You’re just sticking to your canned, poorly exegeted copy and paste answers. If you’re not willing to discuss this, I suggest you quit wasting both your time and ours here.

It’s obvious that you are passionate about what you believe, and that is commendable. It also obvious that you have quite a bit to learn, and you would do well to study things a bit more in depth before you go accusing others of heresy.

Grace and peace.

Phil time and time i ask you to quote scripture back up anything you say with scripture you refuse to do it . Your opinion means nothing . If you dont know the answer and dont want to quote scripture please stop wasting my time . Maybe i should of ask you this along time ago do you believe the bible is the word of God all 66 books ?

Joe Says:338
nice vocabulary there Joey

‘Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things — being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak. Matthew 12:34

I believe Joe’s comment #331 was one of best offerings of wisdom.

I took the Nazarite vow so I cannot drink, however I supplement that with pain medicine.

Bo –

Bo,

That pretty funny for a dead ball player…

Get it… your dead… and using a fake name… Oh I am so witty!

J/k

(I guess I am going through PB withdrawal…?)

iggy