“For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God…” Paul to the Romans, chapter 3, verse 23
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life…” John the Apostle, chapter the third, 16th verse.
Today, my attention was drawn to this post at a certain ‘that which is not to be named’ blog. It is a serious blog post. It is seriously depressing. And it is seriously stupid.
There I said it: It is stupid. I’m sorry. I feel badly about writing it, but there is simply no other way to express my outrage and heart-brokenness.
I know that is harsh and mean and if anyone from ‘that side’ bothers to comment on this post they will most certainly point out that I ‘missed the point’ or that I am ‘ignorant of the facts’ or that I am ‘a stupid non-Christian who is so unconcerned about abortion and the plight of the unborn that I ought to be defrocked (even though I was never frocked to begin with) and run out of the church to the tune of tar, feathers, pitchforks, torches and labeled anathema.’ To be sure, ‘they’ will probably point out that Jesus does not approve of what I am about to write in this post because Jesus hates abortion.
There I said it: The post is stupid.
I am willing to run the risk that I might be labeled by others in order to point out the sheer stupidity of the post mentioned above.
Did I mention the post is stupid? It has been a long, long time since I read something so incredibly insensitive at a blog claiming to be a voice for the Kingdom of God. I’m sorry. I’m desperately trying to be objective and compassionate. Can’t. Can’t. Can’t. I have read the post four or five times now trying, searching, scanning for hope and I just cannot find it. The most hope we can expect out of this post is that we might enjoy some ‘hauntingly beautiful hymn-like‘ music. If an expectant single-mother or a suddenly pregnant husband and wife swimming in debt is debating her/their pregnancy right now read that post, she/they would be left despairing and hopeless; feeling nothing but condemnation.
There is nothing about the Gospel. Nothing about the hope of Christ. Nothing about the penal substitutionary atonement death of Jesus. Nothing about forgiveness of sins. Nothing about grace. Nothing about repentance. Nothing about the new heavens and new earth. Nothing about resurrection. For someone who writes so passionately, so wonderfully about the damnable offense that is abortion, I just cannot believe that there is no mention of hope for forgiveness. No mention of reconciliation. No mention of peace in Christ. No reconciliation. No ransom. No redemption. No substitution. Just condemnation. *Shakes head.*
For someone who so frequently castigates preachers and churches and bloggers for not including a (the) message of the Gospel, I cannot believe the best there is to offer in that particular post is that we might get some good music out of it at the end of the day. No mention whatsoever of how people who have had abortions can be forgiven and changed by the work of Christ Jesus. (As if a purely moralized America is equivalent to the Kingdom of God.)
______________________________
I’d like to begin by noting a few things for the careful reader of CRN.info and Analysis. You may not agree entirely, but I’ll bet we are close. What I’d like to do, is offer the invitation here, at CRN.info and Analysis, that was not offered at SOL. I begin, however, elsewhere:
- It is wrong to steal.
- It is wrong to have gay sex.
- It is wrong to lie.
- It is wrong to cheat.
- It is wrong to fornicate.
- It is wrong to commit adultery.
- It is wrong to be racist.
- It is wrong to get drunk.
- It is wrong to be gluttonous.
- It is wrong to murder.
- It is wrong to get an abortion.
- It is wrong to lust.
- It is wrong to lie about the preacher.
- It is wrong to abuse your spouse or children.
- It is wrong to worship idols.
- It is wrong kidnap.
- It is wrong to disobey your parents.
- It is wrong to swindle.
- It is wrong to be greedy.
- It is wrong to rape.
Yes. Yes. I could go on and on and on. I agree with the post at SOL: Abortion is a heinous, despicable, vile, disgusting offense. I don’t know anyone here who disagrees with that assessment. Those things mentioned above are wrong; they are sin, abortion included.
But it is not the unforgivable sin. Never has been. Never will be. In the crazy economy of the kingdom of God, a person could have 490 abortions in one day and repent and God, in his mercy and grace, would forgive that person because of Jesus Christ. I mean, why wouldn’t he since he expects us to do nothing less? I don’t think God expects people to do things that he himself isn’t willing to do. Thus, forgiveness.
Abortion is not an unforgivable sin.
None of the things I mentioned is the or an unforgivable sin.
_______________________________
Friends, we have ample evidence in our world of all the things that are wrong with us and all the things we do badly and all the sin we have committed and all the idols we have worshiped and all the judgment we have invited into our lives and all the times we have crucified Christ all over again and again and again…
We have sufficient testimony to all the grievous destruction that our sin has wrought upon this earth.
We have enough people pointing out the sin that plagues the United States of America and Russia and England and Brazil and Antarctica and, well, you get the point.
Jesus did not tell us to go around moralizing did he? (This is not rhetorical.)
I’m not even sure he told us to go around pointing out sin, although, when the Gospel is properly preached I think that sin will necessarily be a part of the discussion. After all, it is terribly difficult to call folks to repentance if some mention of sin has not happened.
Jesus did tell us to go and preach the good news, the Gospel. “…He gave them power and authority to drive out demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick…So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the Good News and healing people everywhere” (Luke 9:12, 6).
We have good news! We are told to preach good news! Where’s the Good News in the SOL post? A musical legacy? For one who spends a lot of time criticizing the lack of Gospel in churches and pulpits, the post is decidedly barren of any hope and Gospel. Shall we merely criticize and condemn those who have had abortions or shall we offer them the hope of Christ Crucified and Resurrected?
___________________________
Is there any hope for those who were the subject of the SOL post?
I hate to write this post, but the bottom line is that I have decided that I will make it my life’s ambition to teach the grace of God every chance I get. I want to find 100,000 ways to say: God forgives you in and because of Jesus Christ. I hate writing this post because some might conclude that I am not opposed to abortion, but that would be to miss my point. I am very opposed to abortion, but I also realize that people sin and that it was the sick, weak, broken, hurting, desperate sinners, like me, whom Christ came to save, redeem, ransom, and atone for.
Jesus didn’t come to condemn; why do we think he has assigned us that role?
The author of the SOL post did a great job pointing out a great sin, but the problem with the post is simple: She gave us a great picture of a moralized America where everyone plays in an orchestra or knits flags and worships at the throne of conservative politicians. It’s a powerful picture, but it is not necessarily one Christ has drawn. It is a terrible problem, but there was no solution offered. What’s the point of ranting about the problem when there is no solution offered at all?
She didn’t give us a picture of the Kingdom of God. She gave us a picture of her moralized America where there is condemnation for every perpetrator and no hope whatsoever.
The author would have us condemn all who have had abortions and reject them as mere weak Americans who lack courage and are interested only in their bank balance and credit card statements. Christ would welcome them into his kingdom as the very ones he came to save precisely because they are greedy, murderous, and lack the intestinal fortitude to be self-controlled–because they are sinners! Well, of course they are. That’s normally what happens when people do not know or have rejected Christ.
So here I offer what the author of Slice did not offer: Hope. If you have ever had an abortion or over-spent on your credit cards, if you have filed bankruptcy because you have no self-control, if you are a coward, if you are hopeless and think you are running on empty, if you have no where to go and you think you are out of options–there’s hope. There’s grace. There’s forgiveness of your sins. Christ has payed the price for your sins. There’s Good News! Christ has not rejected you. There’s still hope! There’s still a message of peace and forgiveness to you because of Jesus. Christ will take away your guilt. Christ will heal your wounds. Christ will save you from the hopeless, endless cycle of condemnation and death.
You can join us, all us sinners here, all us imperfect, unkempt, undone, depressed, forgiven-by-God sinners here. We welcome you to join in the story that Christ is writing and has written. We welcome you to taste and see that His Grace is Good. We welcome you to be forgiven in the Name of Jesus.
“…and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ.” The same Paul, to the same Romans, chapter 3, verse 24.
“…For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” the same John the Apostle, the same third chapter, the 17th verse.
115 Comments(+Add)
Is there room for grace for Ingrid?
I agree, Jerry. (big surprise) Standing on a soap box about abortion is as easy as it gets. And if you notice, the author refers to “America” as if it is a collective entity similar to the Borg. Is God’s wrath toward America include Puerto Rico, or do they get a separate wrath because they are not a state?
The answer for abortion is the gospel of Jesus Christ and not any scientific convincing or scolding by someone’s wife. And I still contend that the thousands of life clinics throughout this country do more to stop abortions than all the
boldself serving rhetoric on all the blogs put together.And let us not forget that it takes the same amount of redemption for the proud as it does the mother whose had an abortion. Spouting off about moral issues concerning the lost is like castigating the French for speaking French. Your have identified the core issue with blogs like SoL, they exude judgment and self righteousness with only a smattering of redemption, usually spoken in a 16th century hymn.
But take solace in this, no aborted babies that were elect went to hell.
The same amount there is for Rob Bell.
Jesus once remarked that with the same measure you meet out judgment it shall be meeted out to you. I do not believe Ingrid knows what God’s grace actually is. Seriously.
It is ecclesiastical recreation to lament over the moral decay in our culture. Where is this all powerful God who rules everything from sovereingty? Why doesn’t this God of sovereign orchestration close down these abortion clinics?
Whose fault is it when those who speak so elequently against it also profess to serve and be inhabited by the All-Powerful Creator of the Universe, and yet all God can muster is blog posts? Look in the mirror all you moral Pharisees and gaze at the guilty. You’ll find us all there as well.
I have come to believe there are no true Calvinists, especially those who shout at sinners who are totally depraved and dull of hearing. The journey for many is this – get born into a Christian family, get taught about Christ, get saved by the grace of God, and after being changed by that grace open wide your mouth and spew judgment upon the throngs that need the grace you were given. And with that you should be content.
Disgusting.
About as much as she offered to the people she wrote about in her blog post. Sorry. Those who have been forgiven much, forgive much. Those who have been forgiven little, forgive little.
jerry
Interesting that despite all of this Pastor Boy still can’t bring himself to criticize his Pope-ess.
No gospel, only moralizing combined with nostalgia for an America that likely never existed.
Its also rather hard to take seriously someone complaining about others spending habits when her entire living has been handed to her. She must have had to work real hard to get so far ahead in her daddy’s business.
#5
Then I submit that you do not understand grace.
#4, 3, 2
You have a deep misunderstanding of calvinism. Abortions in this country are a direct evidence of the outpouring of the wrath of God on our culture- see Romans 1:18-32. Just because this is the evidence of God’s wrath being poured out does not mean that we should sit silent. We should stand against immorality wherever it is found with the goal of presenting a message of redemption.
Anyone who could read that USA Today article without wretching or weeping is very hard hearted indeed. I weep for the babies and the mommies and daddies. Mostly I weep for our culture of death.
Bo Peep,
You also clearly have no understanding of grace.
But that is understandable for one who is unregenerate. Does that describe you? I wouldn’t know, I have seen no evidence that you understand grace especially in our relationship online.
PB,
His name is Bo. I promise if you refer to him as ‘peep’ one more time I will ask the powers that be to moderate your comments. This is a serious discussion of the content of a blog post. Deal with it like an adult for a change.
jerry
PB,
Why are you under the delusion that you have the least ability to evaluate anything, much less the salvation of another?
You have shown over and over again an inability to understand anyone who isn’t an ADM, and you’ve shown no ability to discern truth from falsehood. You bandy about articles that smear Rick Warren that have been retracted for years, and yet, somehow, you expect someone to take you seriously when you evaluate the salvation of another.
And here we are, with an OP that is dead-on right. That article is nothing but self-righteous moralizing, its a wordier version of “God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”
And all you can do is the very anti-Biblical action of judging the salvation of those who would dare point out that the Pope-ess has no clothes.
Ingrid must have you on a real tight leash boy.
#7–are you seriously blaming God for the abortions that take place in America? That must make some people feel really good about God. I’ll bet they are lining up to thank God for such a statement.
So, I suppose that means the bumper stickers I occasionally see that say “God is pro-choice” are owned by conservative Calvinists.
#9
I submit again you have no grasp of grace. Why don’t you answer that?
#6 and #10 clearly he is calling me ‘boy’ which is racist as well as condescending.
#11 God is already pouring out his wrath on us. It is very clear. Either he has removed a portion of common grace that allows us (specifically the women, the nurturers) to slaughter innocents.
I know you just want to attack Ingrid, or Calvin with these comments/post…but where I believe we must stand against abortion, we must also offer forgiveness and redemption for those who are caught in any sin. Any stand against the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men must include a humble and honest assessment of our own sin and need for grace so that we can extend the same for others.
The clear hatred for Ingrid and Ken and Chris R on this site belies this call for grace.
Stunning.
A beautiful post about grace and pastor boy can only point fingers and accuse.
Wow…
PB seems to have gone off his meds again…
If only he knew how to forgive others…
iggy
PB,
I assure you it isn’t hate we feel. It is embarrassment and sorrow. I am out for tonight.
Jerry
Yep no hate here… compassionate concern for them that the come to understand the Grace of God.
iggy
There are those who preach legalism and those who preach licentiousness, both graceless philosophies. Then there are those
who preach what Paul and the early church preached, freedom in Christ, which includes the freedom not to have 490 abortions. Dudes you aren’t even in the same universe as Paul.
Oh please. Are you black PB or just trying to play the “victim card”?
Come on John, Ingrid has no syanding on this and you would have so much more credibility if you could just admit it and not defend her when she is clearly wrong.
And then there is the misleading link to the “Obama youth” not being able to worship God as it is intimated on their own time. Just another of many. And I’m NOT a fan of Obama!!!! but I am a fan of the truth.
When people say God is “pouring out His wrath” on “us” and they are referring to America they seriously misrepresent God in two foundational ways.
1. God does not see people as citizens of a particular country in this age. He does not punish Americans as a wholesale lot just because the American government is anti-christ, which almost all governments are. This is a nationalistic prism which distorts the gospel and probably has sprung from the hubris that American Christians exhibit when they suggest God created America as His “favorite son”.
2. The second mischaracterization is deeply mired in sensationalistic error and is the suggestion that God is now “pouring out His wrath” on anyone. We live in the age of grace and our calling is to preach the gospel, not attempt to dodge the wrath of God. It may not be altogether wrong to warn sinners of the wrath to come, but God is NOT pouring out His warth at the present time.
Abortion is not a manifstation of God’s wrath (what a horrible thought), it is a manifestation of a sinful and unregenerate society. And it just may be a significant looking glass into a church which has very little gospel power and is fat, happy, and spiritually lazy.
But hey, abortion is a good thing to set up and knock down in order to bolster your own moral standing by showing the necessary outrage. And if only everyone was like you God would stop His wrath. It takes as much spiritual boldness and moral outrage to be against child abuse as it does abortion. A no brainer, which seems appropriate.
Ya know guys, I continue to be amazed at the spiritual and Biblical shallowness of some bloggers who claim to have a prophetic mantle. And just ride by their own church houses at night during the week, the ones that believe God is “pouring out His warth” on us, and BEHOLD – they are dark and empty. No solemn assemblies, no prayer meetings, and no intercessional gatherings.
And while God is supposedly pouring out His wrath upon all of us, religious conferences are “sounding the alarm” with useless messages like “Every Self Respecting Calvinist should be Pre-millenial”. I think many bloggers just enjoy using the words butcherers, murderers, moral outrage, and any and all references to the Third Reich.
Ingrid and those like her are no more Christian in their words and attitudes than are the Taliban.
I don’t hate them, and I actually do feel some amount of sadness for them. But that doesn’t mean I just let them continue down the path of destruction. They are modern-day Pharisees, and Jesus didn’t have a problem referring to the Pharisees as a “brood of vipers”.
They load heavy burdens on people’s backs and turn converts into more of a son of hell than they are. They have a form of godliness, but deny its power.
I could keep goin’, but I’ll stop there. Jesus had no tolerance for religious idiots.
PB is black?
I didn’t know that.
MG – He is white. Paul C. is a black brother.
When you look at the body of work that John Chisham brings it’s like watching a car wreck meet a plane crash as a train plows through.
PB is white?!?!
yall just hate me because im chinese
Note to self: Do not read Rick when you have liquid in your mouth.
Rick, you owe me a new non-spit-taken monitor.
Yes, all commonwealths are excluded from God’s wrath…
This means Kentucky, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts are excluded as well. Phew.. I’m safe.
damn it…err…damn me. I live in Michigan!
Washington D.C. can not be held accountable since they do not vote. I have contacted Hugh Hefner to find out his secret in avoiding God’s wrath so far.
Sometimes Christians sound so foolishly melodramatic.
You guys mock God’s wrath….
Or you are blind. God just has not removed his presence completely but mark my words, this world (not just America) is experiencing the fruit of God’s wrath even now.
Read and exegete Romans 1:18-32 just once. And do not use your Message or Voice translations. Look up the Greek. Observe the parallels especially how the women in the culture go to depravity last….
Gods wrath is being revealed, but God’s grace is still available to those who will repent and trust Him alone. If you guys would get off of your high horse looking down upon Ingrid, Ken, and Chris R, you might be able to see it. Take the judgmental self righteous plank out of your eye, put down the contemplative journals and the Shack for a moment and read the scripture. You will see it VERY clearly, if the Spirit is illuminating your study.
Rick,
Your comment #19 reminds me of Greg Boyd’s sermon from the 8th of February entitled “The Kingdom is Here…and Now.”
I think you’d really enjoy it.
He is definitely a fresh voice.
#29
Don’t just trust the external, Rick, nor the temporal.
God’s wrath on Hugh may just be a hardened heart that cannot or will not repent.
SoL post:
And here’s an example of just what she meant by how brave and murder-less “America past” was: http://tinyurl.com/d9kcgg
Yeah, I know fish in a barrel ….
It’s just my opinion, but I believe the Spirit of the living God illuminated Jerry’s study on grace and mercy and forgiveness which enabled him to speak clearly of the HOPE we have in Christ.
This was a great OP, not because (as you assert) it attacks Ingrid.
But because it addresses the same people she addressed but offers them hope.
“…and hope does not put us to shame” (Romans 5.5 ESV).
Isn’t it ironic (or maybe just stupid) that those who question original sin — not that I count myself among them — are being jumped on by those that don’t think that sin existed in America 50 years ago?
How people continue to distort the book of Romans is amazing to me. I believe Paul would be saddened to see his words twisted so.
The whole theme behind Romans is the difference between God’s wrath – His turning us over to the natural consequences of our actions – and His grace – His giving something far greater and better than we deserve. Paul is in essence giving an apologetic of why God can be merciful to the Gentiles. He’s not arguing for the fact that God should kill us all, or the He wants to kill us all. Paul is telling the Jews that they don’t have a right to say it is wrong for God to offer mercy to the Gentiles.
So for those Christians who want to use Romans to justify calling down fire from heaven, I can pretty confidently say they’ve missed the point.
#32 – God’s wrath is so mercurial? When God actually does pour out His wrath upon this earth it will be unmistakeable and there will be no discussions about it. It will include externals, internals, and everywhere in between.
Until then, the gospel of God’s grace is God’s sole driving force among sinners. Period.
John,
You wrote: “Gods wrath is being revealed, but God’s grace is still available to those who will repent and trust Him alone.”
Now I challenge you to go to the original post at SOL and find the grace of which you speak.
That is the entire point of my post–in which I actually agreed with the basic point of the SOL post (that abortion is really, really bad). All I did was offer the grace here that was not offered there. I don’t care if she talks about God’s wrath any more than I care if you do.
The problem is when there is no solution offered. But if you quote Romans 1, I will quote Romans 3:25 “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of Atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith.” Well all of us Greek scholars know that ’sacrifice of atonement’ is the word ‘propitiation’ which is an English word that means ‘ to appease, to turn aside wrath.’
So if his wrath is or has been revealed, it has been satisfied in Christ. Didn’t we already have this discussion? That’s the point of my post: For all of yours and Ingrid’s and Ken’s and all your cronies complaints about ‘us’ not preaching the Gospel that is the very thing Ingrid did not do. She pointed out the problem; She did not point to the Solution who is Jesus Christ.
So why don’t you get your head out of your theological malaise, learn the Gospel, read Romans beyond chapter 1, and figure out that you have no leg to stand on here. And neither does Ingrid.
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. Think about it John. Show us where Ingrid preached the Gospel in her post condemning all the wicked and cowardly to hell. Show us. Come on.
jerry
I would add that those Christians sound very similar to the Jews Paul was writing to…
Disagreement is not hatred. Dealing with the content of someone’s behavior/deeds is not an attack.
PB,
if you could just say that beyond speaking against abortion Ingrid really dropped the ball on this, I think you’d find that people here might actually take note of it.
It would probably go toward building trust/cred with people to hear your own critiques.
If that’s even what you want.
Of course, there’s grace for Ingrid. The kind that she’s measured to others. That’s how the kingdom works. You get measured to you what you’ve measured to others.
So…by your own standards… grace/love, etc is best shown by demonstrating fault and telling someone the truth.
In fact, she’s getting a better deal than that. The OP doesn’t question her salvation, or call her super weird jargon filled names.
The people here are only trying to live up to the standard that has been set for us…
If it bothers you/the rest of the ADM’s/the coward lurkers here…
well…
all ya’ll have to do is stop your online “ministries” and there’ll be no need for this site.
but if ya’ll want to go around pointing fingers…it’s just part of the deal that you get the same.
PB,
Your eisogesis of Romans is appalling and you need to read the full context……. and stop showing contempt for the kindness of God as Paul’s point is made in chapter 2… you cannot seperate chapter one form chapter 2… and you have done that.
Parallel… yes, all mankind is without righteousness without Jesus as all Christians without Jesus are also…
Yet, without kindness none of us can be saved… from God’s wrath…
So read chapter one and two in Greek or whatever and pray for understanding of what you read…
and learn from God’s kindness to all the unrighteous in his gift of salvation to all who come to Jesus.
iggy
And please stop pointing your own fingers at everyone and praise God that you are but a saved sinner… for you sin is the same as any depraved man or woman… and your words show ignorance of your own sin and need of Christ’s righteousness instead of standing on your own self righteousness…
iggy
No one is mocking God’s wrath. But a lot of people are mocking the ADM’s incredibly anti-scriptural caricature of God’s wrath. As well it should be.
If you’re going to take an OT view of how God deals with nations you might as well start back up temple worship and get to slaughtering animals.
Last night my wife made a great point about the SOL post. She pointed out that the SOL post mentioned a man who gave the world some great music. My wife wondered, after losing a debate about my use of the word ’stupid’ to describe Ingrid’s post, if the man would have been any less valuable if we didn’t know him or his music.
That is, what if he had grown up to be a serial killer? A war dictator? A genocidal maniac? A liberal?
What if he or she invented the atomic bomb? Or invented slavery? Or wrote the satanic bible? Or never worked a day in his life? Or grew up to have abortions herself?
Is a life valuable or significant only because they have something positive to contribute to culture? I have read in other threads that if we see Osama Bin Laden we should run him over in our car. Well, what if his mother would have had the chance to abort him? Would that have been justified? Does this make sense?
All life is valuable to Christ. Only a myopic view of salvation and atonement can say a life is valuable because they have something to contribute to us. It really limits the work of grace and hurts the cause of Christ.
Goats – you either love em or hate em, depending if your eyes are on the cross or not. In the meeting outside of Berlin in Wannsee in 1942, several men gathered to finalize the annihilation of the Jews. Dr. Wilhelm Stuckart, Reich Ministry for the Interior, stated this reason for the destruction of the Jewish race:
“They reject the Christ”
That spirit has many cousins today.
Be sure to read comment #18.
Is there room for grace for Ingrid?
What a question! Yes! All she need do is humble herself and see her need for Jesus’ righteousness instead of preaching her own!
God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud…
It is true for Ingrid as it is for all of us…
and that is the Kindness of God in actions…
iggy
I wonder how this murderous song writer would have been handled by the ADM’s?
# 18
aside from the last comment I would agree… God has freed us to live in His Righteousness and by His Grace…
that was closest biblical thing Contempt for Everything has said in quite a while.
Again aside from the last sentence in the comment. That sort of negated his whole point…
iggy
Paul is in Paradise.
Is there grace for someone who believes on Christ and murders those who oppose his theology?
Yes, and all the reformers should be grateful.
To add to Jerry’s comment about the value of life, the ADMs attack rappers that have a reformed message to their lyrics. So I guess the value of a life is based on their judgment of the worth of the musician.
Why is it the clearer I see my sin – the clearer I see God’s grace – the clearer I see my sin – the clearer I see God’s grace – the clearer…well, you get the picture.
Anyone who condemns sinners does not understand both their own sin or God’s grace.
#49
Well, how I handled the murderous, adulterous, coveteous, blasphemous, dishonoring of God… song writer is that I realized that all of us murderous, adulterous, coveteous, blasphemous, dishonoring of God people like him could receive God’s mercy and grace if we will simply admit ‘I AM THAT MAN’ and with brokenness and a contrite spirit repent and trust in God my Salvation.
The wrath of God is being revealed….but God’s mercy and longsuffering and grace are still available for those who will say I AM THAT MAN and repent and trust in Christ.
Phil, I heartily disagree with your overly simplistic view of the book of Romans. By diminishing God’s righteous wrath, we diminish His matchless grace.
And I still think you all have issues with Ken, Ingrid, and Chris R. You need to just stick to issues and stop attacking them. Its pathetic, its wrong, and it removes any credibility from your writing.
Were this OP a stand alone on the need for grace towards all of us sinners, it would have been excellent. Of course, instead, you have to bash Ingrid along the way. It is like a SOP here.
#54
Now that I can agree with…
While in Florida on our recent missions trip, I saw blatant sin. But God humbled me, and revealed sin in my own life so clearly that I needed to repent. I saw how desperately I needed the grace of God. And in that a compassion welled up for the people I was speaking to, even though they cursed me and cursed God.
God’s grace is marvelous!
So does God love sinful people or want to kill them?
If He doesn’t love sinners, we’re all doomed.
PB–you are the only one bringing up Ken, Chris R, and Ingrid. I didn’t mention any of them in the OP. Not once–except as a means of classifying the post. You are the only one trying to derail this post which IS NOT ABOUT Ingrid, Ken or Chris P or even you. Its about all of us sinners who are saved by grace. It’s about all those sinners that the author of Slice offered no grace. You can’t possibly be reading what we are writing here if this is what you keep coming back to.
Seriously, are you reading? Or are you cutting and pasting?
As to wrath and grace…well, Phil didn’t diminish God’s wrath. God diminished God’s wrath by saving us by grace through faith and propitiating his wrath in the sacrifice of Christ.
Seriously, if our salvation depends on our repentance, it seems we’re all lost. Is there any person who doesn’t have unrepented sin in his life? I’m sure there’s sins we commit that we don’t even realize. So does it matter if it’s a “small” sin opposed to a “big” one?
I guess that’s why talking about the love and grace of God is still scandalous. It always offends our sensibilities to a big degree. “You love that person God? Are You off your Holy rocker or something?”
#57
God will unleash his wrath on the unrighteous….
And then…..He will have mercy on the penitent…..
Romans 5
The we is those who have repented and trusted alone in Christ..by faith.
He died for what we were…ungodly…children of wrath (Ephesians 2)
Oh the wonderful grace of God…amplified by the righteous wrath of God!!
What are you talking about?
In 1975, at age 23, I was dealing drugs into the local high school, I rode a motorcycle, I was massively promiscuous, I was violent and a drunkard, and I was planning to rob a bank and kill the guard as we entered. Afeter being injured in a street fight, my aunt took me in and I saw Billy Graham on Television. I was saved by the simple grace of God without any knowledge of systematic theology.
The air was fresher, my life was free, and I enetered a brand new life. It wasn’t until later that I discovered that some believers have made Christianity a land of bondage and judgment rather than freedom and redemption. Sometimes I desire to return to March, 1975.
In full disclosure, during a period in my Christian life I became one of those Pharisees. Those of you who are familiar with my verbosity can only imagine the things I said.
Again, I rediscovered God’s grace!!
Jerry,
Great thoughts… I see that this is the issue… when someone like “us” speak of grace, those like “PB” get bent as they view us as saying there is no wrath.
Yet, all are reconciled, yet, if one chooses not to be, then they have nothing left but the wrath God will pour out on “the devil and his followers”.
How sad that the focus is on wrath instead of Grace.
God provided “the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world” and we diminish God’s kindness and grace by focusing on His wrath.
Weird how PB reads Romans 5… If we read it like him then no one is saved… for it is that we were enemies….and that Christ died for us to show God’s kindness that Paul is pointing out. How can an enemies repent without there being the very kindness of God to repent to? Again, PB jumps over chapter 2 and misses that it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance… and by His kindness reconciled us unto himself by Jesus.
Jesus died for what we ARE… and then gave us the promise of the Holy Spirit and by the power of the resurrected Life of Christ changes us.
What PB is saying is that we change ourselves by our own repentance… and that is works righteousness and not salvation by God alone.
iggy
Where did I say that? You are a liar, iggy.
Repentance is a grace granted by God. There is nothing in me that desires to repent. It is a gift of God. As is faith….Being born again is the gift of God! Everything is from Him to bring Him glory.
Please stop mischarachterizing what I am saying, Iggy.
As to this OP, if Ingrid was not mentioned, I could say a hearty AMEN. But, by the mention of her and the clear lack of Christian grace towards her…I can dismiss it.
“…God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” (Romans 2:4 ESV).
There is a vast difference between conviction and condemnation.
In my opinion, the article on SoL leaned toward condemnation.
Jerry’s article dripped with hope and kindness, which according to the apostle Paul, leads us to repentance.
The decision to repent is a gift that God gives every sinner.
As to Ingrid, she has a current post about a squabble concerning Todd Bentley. Someone please tell me where you go to find these things. How in God’s name can you claim God calls you to search out the sin of others? What is the definition of gossip?
The spittoon continues.
If repentance is simply a gift from God, then how can He be wrathful towards those who are unrepentant, or as you put it, to whom He hasn’t given the gift? I guess if the unrepentant are just not part of the Elect, then too bad for them then.
The way I see it is repentance is a reaction to the love of God. The more we get to know, the more we will naturally be led to repentance. We are ambassadors of God’s love. We are to reveal His love and grace to a lost and dying world. Those Christians who spread the lie that God hates sinners need to be called out because they are not doing their jobs. They are, in fact, acting as a way that is anti-Kingdom.
That is why Jesus was so stern with the Pharisees. They were supposed to be God’s representatives on earth, but they were actually preventing people from seeing God the way He was supposed to be seen. They were actually probably very moral people who hated sin, but they didn’t understand the heart of the Father.
Amen, Phil.
I think we were typing at the same time.
Because our parents were good to us we were hurt when they rebuked us because we knew we hurt them.
When the mean guy next door rebukes us we are not drawn to him because he hasn’t shown us love and kindness.
That is why, when God reproves and punishes us, we are drawn to Him because He has been so good and kind to us. We are hurt when we hurt Him.
Funny how PB gets all upset when someone does to him what he does to everyone who disagrees with him.
PB,
It was a summation of your points so far made here not a direct quote… and am I worthy of the same grace you ask of Ingrid? It seems I am not with you…
peace.
iggy
Typically ADM mode of operation.
Say everything exactly the way I want it to be said and understand completely what I’m saying in spite of the words I use otherwise…HERETIC!!!!!!
Bo,
I am in no way doing to PB what he does to others… I am restating him as I understand him… I read what he states and either re-quote him directly or restate in my own words what I hear him saying… yet it is funny how he calls for grace for his friends and then condemnation and name calling without giving the same grace to someone like me…. I believe James teaches against favoritism… but it is well practised by PB and his buddies.
Also, I am not attacking PB on a personal level only looking at his theology and commenting on it… he likes to try to pull me into these stupid fights with his “liar” comments… but this time… I will not be suckered into his graceless attacks. I understand him much better these days… and I am sad for him… I believe he may truly be ill… and it has gone on for a long time. I am not sure what happened to him years ago but it has seriously hurt him and I pray he will find healing in Jesus.
iggy
Oh no, Iggy, I am not ill
But I will call you to account for your lies. I forgive you, and extend grace to you…but as a Christian you should not lie against your brothers.
I think when you call me ill it is your various diseases speaking. I think the psycho babblers call it projection. So I understand your mocking med comments about me.
So grace to you iggy, and peace. But repent…
That is just too easy, it presents no challenge. I must abstain.
PB<
You are ill as you are calling me a liar and for no reason… what is there to forgive? Your imagination of a lie against you? \
I forgive you… and pray for you…
Oh and here is a song for you…
And if you think that what you think is true,
if you found peace deep inside of you,
if your faith made a mountain move for you then,
don’t forget to pray for me, hear me now
if you think that jesus has saved you,
mother mary is waiting there for you,
if you think that god has spoke to you then,
don’t forget to pray for me, hear me now
pray for me,
pray for me,
if you really do believe,
then don’t forget to pray for me,
hear me now
if you think there’s heaven when you die,
waiting for your freedom for your life,
when you pray does allah answer you,
then don’t forget to pray for me, hear me now
and if you live in the promised land,
and your temple will be built again,
if moses brought you out of pharaoh’s hands,
then don’t forget to pray for me, hear me now
pray for me,
pray for me,
if you really do believe,
then don’t forget to pray for me,
hear me now
you know, every day i look at god,
all around me, so near yet so far,
if you think you’re better off than me,
then don’t forget to pray for me,
hear me now
pray for me,
pray for me,
if you really do believe,
then don’t forget to pray for me,
hear me now
umm, umm……….
don’t forget to pray for me,
hear me now
PB,
I don’t care what you believe… about me or otherwise… you are sick and need prayer… say what you want of me… attack me all you want… your lack of love for me and others speaks louder to me than all your words.
And I will pray for you…
iggy
I recall those days, Rick… though it seems to be I have become the butt of your jokes far more often, now that the scales have fallen from your eyes, than I was before…
…strange…
Chris L…
Heh, you said “butt”…. hehe…
iggy
Where did Chris R go?
I was much worse before I ever owned a computer. I was once a discple of Jack Hyles.
I would have considered none of you saved. The one constant has been my disdain for Calvinism.
Seriously, isnt’ this thread right up his alley?
and a lethal quill (or keyboard)
Back in the early 1980’s we lived in the little southern town of Andalusia, Alabama. Our back yard was opposite anothers back yard. That neighbor had a drinking problem that was evident on the weekends when he and his wife used to get into fights. They usually started in their house and sometimes carrying it out to the backyard. One memorable fight he was outside yelling your a liar, your a liar, your a liar. She responded by popping his bald head about three times. Entertaining. Sometimes it gets just as entertaining here. “Smile”
Be afraid, Nathanael, be very afraid.
There are two things that energize my verbosity.
1. The attack on unregenrate sinners. (Hollywood, gays, rockers, et al.)
2. Suggesting someone is not saved who claims Jesus Christ.
As is previously documented, the horses come out of the barn when that happens. Other than that, I’m a jolly Santa Claus!!
Oops. That would be you’re and not your. Drats I read that stupid thing three times and still didn’t see the mistake. Oh….my kingdom for a brain.
Brendt,
Great example of the Good ‘ol Days when God reigned in America… unlike today!
The whole “thing used to be so much better” is as unbiblical as it is cliche…
Just reminds me of my own thoughts.
Being one of the older people on this blog I do remember when America seemed better. I was born in the fifties so I can see the progression of different morals and values that are expressed openly. Now,down below the surface I’m sure it was not so pretty. Sin is sin and it didn’t just start yesterday but it wasn’t expressed as openly as today. When I was a little girl we played outside for hours at a time. And that included roaming the neighborhood with other kids. We trick or treated without having to worry about someone poisioning us or sticking razor blades in candy. In the summer we played after dark outside and we weren’t kidnapped. I walked or rode my bike to school. When I was six I left a movie theater in Tampa Fla. and walked to my cousins apartment by the bay and lived to tell about it. ( ok that was dumb) America is different now. I understand there were the same things going then as now but it was not so prevalant. I look at my granddaughter and feel sorry for the way she will have to be sheltered and protected as she grows up. And I was not some sheltered child that didn’t see the worst side of human nature till I grew up. I saw sin up close and personal in my own family. Alot of Christians mix Christianity with patriotism. I do not. This is not my real home. My loyalties were transferred to Christ when I became a Christian. I don’t worship a country. It has taken me awhile to get here but here I am. Also like Rick I am not political. It is all just a game that I refuse to play anymore. Just my 2 cents worth. ( If it is even worth that much)
ncgal – Your comment is true, however evangelicals in the 1950’s lamented how much better things were in 1900. Everything is relative except the gospel.
Perhaps if evangelicals were more passionate in the 1950,s, things would not have digressed so quickly. But I believe the Norman Rockwell model is a mirage, even if the externals seem better. American blacks would certainly not desire to return to those days.
I was born in 1952.
Rick, you are absolutely correct and I agree with you in everything you said. I am not longing for the past. And I am not ignorant of what went on just below the surface of the American culture. I did not grow up in the Norman Rockwell model of a family. My mother and father were divorced when I was a baby. My brother and I lived with my mothers parents until my grandfather died and my mother went into a mental hospital. My grandmother raised us and took care of us while she worked and drank when she was at home. My father decided when I was seven that he would just keep us and not bring us back home. We had to go to court with my brother and I present and he lost complete custody of us. I didn’t see him again until I was 19. Plus the fact that he was a Jehovah’s witness and wouldn’t even come to my wedding because it was in a Methodist church. My mother was in and out of mental hospitals all my life. And when she wasn’t and living with us it was worse. She was a paranoid schizophrenic. Come to think of it maybe I don’t want to go back to the fifties either. I was born in 1953 so I guess that makes you older than me.
“I was born in 1953 so I guess that makes you older than me.”
Thanks.
Are you related to nc?
She’s my mom…
no.
Just kidding.
I don’t know ncgal.
maybe nc is related to pb since the both share an affinity for using mere initials? GBA.
I believe PB and nc teach a Thursday night Bible study together.
I attend that class and we are currently going through PB’s favorite book – Leviticus.
Spot on, brother.
And Ingrid cannot understand why she has to deal with so many “toxic” people. Like attracts like sometimes. Hatefulness begets hatefullness.
Dealing With Toxic People
You are failing to make the critical distinction between upper case initials and all lower case initials.
This is essential to coming to an understanding of the real initial only identification versus a “different” one.
If you equate the two you are found guilty of the misuse of initials and I call you to repent.
Jane – How Christian is it to complain about “toxic people” when our Example endured the contradiction of sinners against Himself? And this is on a “hope” blog? This statement reveals Ingrid’s lack of Biblical Christianity:
That, my friends, is secular psychology pure and simple and completely at odds with the teachings of Jesus. Throw out the Bible, we need extra-Biblical teachings so that we do not “enable people to sin”. Jesus should have known this and He could avoided many unnecessary stripes on His back.
Everyone should visit the link provided in comment #97 and read a completely unbiblical view of relationship interaction. Please note the convoluted marriage advice from a licensed professionsl (
) , and throw out the suffering ourselves to be defrauded as well as the stupid martyrs who let others abuse them.
What a total mess.
#90 — Rick uttered this refrigerator quote:
Dude, that was good!!!
Ingrid’s personal blog is called The ***Hope*** Blog?
I don’t care who ya are; that’s funny, right there.
Rick does have a way with words. That phrase hit me hard too.
#102, it’s kind of pathetic, in a sad, disturbing, melancholy, confusing sort of way. maybe it is irony. maybe it is like penance??
There is absolutely nothing so unchristian and so at odds with the gospel itself than having a disdain for lost sinners. Christ Himself returned infinite good for infinite evil. When we categorize sinners according to their external manifestations we lose sight of the cross and its meaning.
Ingrid and others like her have a distorted view of Christianity and Christ Himself which causes them to see themselves as God’s faithful servants and see sinners as God’s targets in waiting. Lamenting over the sin of others is an unproductive and self serving exercise that yields fruit which is only palatable to the self righteous, especially when your lamenting includes the effect it has on your personal comfort.
It is amazingly hypocritical to constantly address the cultural metamorphosis of the church and her methodology while you yourself leave the Biblical plight of the lost and give advice of how to make your life better by “dealing” with sinners.
Sometimes, many times, maybe even most times we are called to suffer the unpleasantries offered by uncaring people. Many bosses are rude and unfair; many teenagers are rebellious; many lost people are unfriendly to believers; but in all this we are called to be light to darkness.
Psychology can only go so far, and creating a buffer zone may be desirable for us but it may not be God’s will. As you read that toxic post you will see it is all about Ingrid and her ambiance. I have known personally homes that have prayed and endured a rebellious teenager, only to see that child repent later and testify of the conviction they felt by being loved even when they knew they were unloving.
Many of Ingrid’s posts are subtle dissertations meant to justify herself and remove some guilt concerning something in her past. Sinners of all kinds are to her an unfortunate thorn in her life and enemies of her cultural ambiance. If Christ had seen sinners in that way He would have avoided coming to this world like the plague. Instead He came in their likeness, despised the shame, and even gave His life for those despicable sinners…like me.
While some warn the emergent church to remain true to the Scriptures, those who warn must be warned to remain true to redemption.
Well I went and reads Ingrid’s “Toxic” post and I believe that she actually wrote a solid article and was graceful in doing it. The train jumped the tracks when I started reading the comments.
With sentiments like…
Those are just from the first couple.
Now not wanting to get all psycho babble but anyone who knows a little bit about family counseling and/or systems psychology would tell you that even if you are not the culprit you are culpable. Whatever system you are in you contribute to it’s make up.
I think that’s what Ingrid was getting at. Unfortunately her post and commenter’s dissolve into the atypical “everyone else is bad, but I’m good” ADM mentality.
If everyone was exactly like me the world would be
awesomethe mostsometimesmost times selfish,somewhatpretty much cynical,occasionallydaily sinning, questioning, doubting, fearful, place ever. For the record I don’t revel in my sinful condition but I do acknowledge that I am “the chief of all sinners”Let me identify some other sentences from that article that reveal an amazing self righteousness.
See, Ingrid is really wrestling with her sin and she can identify those who are not.
Reasons known only to them? Maybe these are hurting people still stinging frrom some abuse or even pfusiological imbalance. Her “feel compelled” quip is typical of her demeaning style.
She cannot resist using hyperbolic invectives as it pertains to OTHERS.
Doesn’t anyone see something ironic in that??
These are direct quotes. Just wow. Is the mirror foggy?
No, this is not an autobiography. Replace the word “room” with “blog” and see what you get. The entire article is a breathtaking view into a selfish and narcissistic heart. The missionaries in Pakistan risk their very lives to reach hostile and sometimes violent sinners, but we American believers must find ways to insulate ourselves from sinners who annoy us.
Yea, real sacrificial Christianity.
It’d be funny if it weren’t so tragic.
It is a video like this in today’s news that should serve as a clear clarion call that sin should not and will not be tolerated. This is judgment:
Rabid bobcat loose in bar
This should also serve as a dual warning to those church leaders considering starting a church in a bar.
Bo – Just to be clear, everyone annoys me.
Rick-Just to be clear, only you annoy me. I don’t like the sunglasses.
Rabid bobcats are the solution to any boring social event. Don’t let your party bomb again, subscribe to our rabid bobcat service and we’ll deliver a rabid bobcat to your location in 30 minutes or less!
Omigosh, Paul C. That’s hilarious.
In general…
This whole “toxic” thing…
I wonder about people who are immersed in toxicity, but it’s been described as honoring to God so it’s not able to be perceived as the toxic reality it is….
I mean…that woman’s behavior communicates that the best response to her own admitted failures and brokenness is to take up the mantle of anger and more judgement in the name of truth.
I have to wonder if it was just guilt and shame that “brought her back”…I have to wonder after returning to the Lord the community around her took a more “that’s right, it’s about time you submitted to the truth of God”…instead of the weeping parent who foregoes their “right” to say “I told ya so…” and just celebrates the return of a precious one.
If that’s what happened…well…then I might actually be able to be more understanding of where she comes from…maybe even Chris P too…
Too bad these people live so bottled up and all self-adoring that no one will probably ever know.
Sad.
Very.
Sad.
chris – I have constructed a cone of silence that wards off toxic people like you.
Sunglasses, deal with it!
One last comment on the “toxic” people topic… it seems to me that the most toxic people, the ones who bother us the most, often exhibit flaws that we share and do not like about ourselves.