It’s an interesting thing the internet. I love that we can share ideas, thoughts, and dialogue. I’m also a big fan of being able to use the internet and blogs in particular to share the love of Christ. Sometimes I wonder what an uniformed not-Christian might think if they read this:

John the Baptist didn’t whimper around about “praying for those in authority” like Rick Warren has, as cover for self-promotion and thinly veiled political ambition. John the Baptist rebuked King Herod for his adultery. Then again, he lost his head for it. There is no danger of Rick Warren losing his head for what he’s about to do. Three resounding cheers to Joseph Farah for publicly stating the obvious about Warren’s fawning sycophancy of Barack Obama. He begins his letter with this excellent sentence: [...]

I didn’t realize that President-elect Obama had committed adultery. I didn’t realize the USA advocated chopping off anyone’s head. I didn’t realize preachers were only called to pray for those with whom they agreed. I didn’t realize that Joseph Farah was a moral majority who had any authority over the daily schedule of Rick Warren. I didn’t realize it was against the law or Scripture for Rick Warren to have political ambition (not that I’m saying he does; who cares?) You know, the more these ADM’s write against certain folks, the more I find myself siding with certain folks. These people need to get real jobs.

You know, the author of this is correct. John the Baptizer didn’t whimper about about such things as ‘praying for those in authority.’ Why on earth would we want to do that? However, Paul did.

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. (1 Timothy 2:1-8)

Hmmm….who should we listen to…the one who doesn’t seem to know Scripture (or at least only remembers the parts they desire to remember) or the Scripture?

Sola Scriptura my ass. More like ‘Sola the Scripture I Wish to Remember’. Or Sola Joseph Farah. I wonder what will happen to us if we don’t pray for Pres-elect Obama? God have mercy!

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98 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 3:05 pm

And my questions remains the same for those who are having apoplexy about Obama’s election –

* How can you participate in a system that elects those you hate?

* And why do you question God’s sovereignty in this matter?

* Of course if you were raised by grandparents and born to a single mother you would still have found the truth, right?

Sometimes hypocrisy becomes a garment of praise.

2   the template of general disdain    
December 22nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Where did Ingrid say NOT to pray for Obama? This is a criticism of Warren praying the invocation at the innagural.
If Rick Freuh practiced what he preached, he would be criticizing Warren for particpating in a political event also.
The worst kind of hypocrites are the spin meisters, blog author included.

I don’t see Paul advocating support for anyone who is anti-life and pro gay. Romans 13, which you “forgot” to cite, tells us of governments meant to wield the sword in rigteousness and justice according to a sovereign God’s word. We are praying for righteous government.
When they violate that mandate, we are to pray God’s revealed will which could mean His bringing a particular system down, since he raises up kingdoms and casts kingdoms down. So who is actually questioning God’s sovereignty?
Why it’s the free wheeling free willers.

I see no questioning of God’s sovereignty. Rick Warren was predestined to be a media whore

Obama needs to come to be born again, as he is currently NOT one the saints.
Warren will have no more success as “pastor to the presidents” than Billy Graham did. Nixon and Clinton are good examples here.
Bottom line; we are called to pray as the church for all God given authority whether that authority be given to entities or individuals. We are not called to join the “media circus maximus”, unless of course we are being martyred for our faith.
Believe me, God’s glory will be the farthest thing from the minds of all who participate in the innaguration.

3   Ian    http://www.lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 4:00 pm

template…..

The point of that scripture is that we are called to pray for our leaders regardless of what they do. Remember that the Roman auhtorities would execute anybody who refused to worship their emporer, raising him to a position of demi-god.

Paul tells us we are to pray so we can live peaceful and quiet lives in godliness – the gospel won’t be achieved by legislating morality – but can be achieved by the witness of followers of Jesus living lives that reflect the gospel – not lives of loudness and argumentativeness according to this scripture.

4   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 4:13 pm

I see no questioning of God’s sovereignty. Rick Warren was predestined to be a media whore

Now that is funny…

If it’s predestined then, why complain? I guess some just enjoy kicking against the goads.

Believe me, God’s glory will be the farthest thing from the minds of all who participate in the innaguration.

Once again, Chris P. a commenter claims the role of the Holy Spirit, as if we are able to rightly discern the thoughts and motivations of all in attendance.

5   Neil    
December 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Believe me, God’s glory will be the farthest thing from the minds of all who participate in the innaguration.

\

I am always awed when someone displays the ability to discern the motives and intents of other people.

6   nc    
December 22nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm

speaking of whores…I guess some people just want to others to be guilty of their own sins so they don’t feel as bad about it.

I mean…a “media whore” is really an “attention whore” and if drive-by semi-anonymous comments don’t fit that bill then I don’t know what does.

Enjoy that today, little template.
I almost hope you’re not Chris P…I mean, he needs some competition for that heavenly job he clearly wants to badly.

I guess being a self-appointed magisterium member isn’t the thrill it must have once been.

7   wilson    
December 22nd, 2008 at 6:16 pm

There isn’t too much of a problem with Warren praying for Obama. The thing is, when he starts doing things that Warren disagrees with, what most Christians disagree with, what then shall he say? Is Warren going to criticize Obama? Is Warren going to preach to Obama and the United States? Is Warren going to pray in Jesus’ name? Is he going to pray for revival & repentance for the sins of the people? That would hardly be politically correct. Or is he just going to use Obama’s political capital to fulfill the One Sabbath / PEACE plan thing as much as he can, and to the wind with sound doctrine, just have a nice guy Jesus who wouldn’t offend anyone (as we so often see)?

The problem is not that he prays, but WHAT he prays, and where to for the future when Obama starts doing things pastor Rick disagrees with. Is he going to be “America’s ‘pastor’ “? Is he going to rebuke Americans? Or is he going to be America’s pastor and just try help everyone to get on like a big family holiday?

Very difficult to be standing firm when you are jumping from foot to foot.

8   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 6:35 pm

wilson,

that’s not what the post at SOL says. the post at SOL is complaining because he is praying. nothing else.

we can’t complain about WHAT he prays because he hasn’t prayed it yet.

You are way off base. And, if I may say so, Wrong.

jerry

9   nc    
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:28 pm

oh, poor little template must have run away again.

so weak.

10   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:34 pm

Template is a joke incarnate…

So, we throw out scripture that teaches us to pray for our leaders,and twist scripture to fit his political views because we hate Rick Warren and Obama?

arrrgh!

iggy

11   wilson    
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm

Jerry said “we can’t complain about WHAT he prays because he hasn’t prayed it yet.”

You are absolutely right. we can’t complain about what he prays because he hasn’t prayed it yet. I totally agree. If you re-read my post, I did not complain about WHAT he prays and nor did I say what he would pray.

then Jerry said “You are way off base. And, if I may say so, Wrong.”"

No you may not. I asked my questions in a doubtful way but these are still mere questions. I hope Rick surprises me.

12   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:34 pm
13   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 pm

Crud it didn’t go through….

Try this link…

14   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Wilson,

Let me remind you of what you wrote:

The problem is not that he prays, but WHAT he prays, and where to for the future when Obama starts doing things pastor Rick disagrees with. Is he going to be “America’s ‘pastor’ “? Is he going to rebuke Americans? Or is he going to be America’s pastor and just try help everyone to get on like a big family holiday?

Then you wrote in your second comment:

If you re-read my post, I did not complain about WHAT he prays and nor did I say what he would pray.

I’m not really sure even you know what you are writing.

jerry

15   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm

Favorite quote of the year… and once again fitting to the thread comments…

“Words mean something.” ~ PB

ROTFLMBO!

iggy

16   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 pm

“If Rick Freuh practiced what he preached”

I try and avoid that. I think Rick Warren’s motives are right but he is wasting his time. Does that constitute as criticism? :)

17   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 9:27 pm

“John the Baptist didn’t whimper around about “praying for those in authority” like Rick Warren has, as cover for self-promotion and thinly veiled political ambition. John the Baptist rebuked King Herod for his adultery. Then again, he lost his head for it. There is no danger of Rick Warren losing his head for what he’s about to do.”

Besides judging his heart, none of us are about to lose anything. But hey, maybe Ingrid was just having a bad day. Here are some words of comfort:

Will you need a blue sky holiday?
The point is they laugh at what you say
And I don’t need no carryin’ on

You had a bad day
You’re taking one down
You sing a sad song just to turn it around
You say you don’t know
You tell me don’t lie
You work at a smile and you go for a ride
You had a bad day
The camera don’t lie
You’re coming back down and you really don’t mind
You had a bad day

Here’s hopin for better days ahead!

18   wilson    
December 22nd, 2008 at 9:58 pm

jerry said: I’m not really sure even you know what you are writing.

Okay. When I said:
“The problem is not that he prays, but WHAT he prays, and where to for the future when Obama starts doing things pastor Rick disagrees with. Is he going to be “America’s ‘pastor’ “? Is he going to rebuke Americans? Or is he going to be America’s pastor and just try help everyone to get on like a big family holiday?”

I am simply posing some questions as to what he might possibly pray about. Some of these questions are things that he may pray about. Others are not. I am simply putting them out there to stir our thinking about what our priorities in prayer should be.

I also said: “If you re-read my post, I did not complain about WHAT he prays and nor did I say what he would pray.”

I simply said this because I did not complain about what he prayed for the simple fact that he hasn’t prayed it yet.

19   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 pm

wilson,

I simply said this because I did not complain about what he prayed for the simple fact that he hasn’t prayed it yet.

But boy you sound like you are ready to jump all over RW when he does pray… even if what he prays has nothing wrong with it!

iggy

20   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 pm

I am fairly certain God will not be listening to any prayers on January 20th in Washington, just like He wasn’t in 2000 and 2004.

21   Ian    http://www.lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:19 am

Rick

I am pretty certain he will be listening…

He just might say ‘no’ again, that’s all :-)

22   nc    
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 am

God clearly wasn’t listening in 2004…I mean, W got re-elected and it’s all the evangelicals fault because they got duped by Rovian exploitation of their religious fears and prejudices.

;)

juuuust kidding. but not really…

Merry Xmas.

23   nc    
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 am

omigosh…If RW prayed a prayer of rebuke and repentance, but then said “in your name we pray” at the end…then it would be a “huuuuge betrayal”….

seriously…evangelicals and their fake issues.

As if “praying in Jesus name” is going to be the make or break factor in figuring out our national problems.

As if banning gay marriage has anything to do with the actual day to day running of a competent government.

As if there actually is a “war on Xmas”…

these are just self-righteous distractions from real issues.

24   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:13 am

nc – I do not believe we have to worry about a prayer of rebuke and repentance, and anyway many prayers become mini-sermons like that. The entire Inauguration is much to do about nothing, and how the church ever got caught up in this idolatry is beyond me.

It is hedonistic, materialistic, humanistic, pluralistic, and generally an exercize in pageantry that is as meaningful as professional wrestling. Millions of evangelicals cast a msiguided vote for this new pro-choice president in the same way they cast their misguided vote for a pro-life president in 2004.

All things remain the same since the fathers slept. Politics is a deception/mirage and the church has been a willing partcipant.

25   nc    
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:15 am

I generally agree with your comment, Rick.

but…

“millions”? really?

I guess it might be if there really is 80 million evangelicals, but I don’t think that number is right.

26   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 am

Mant millions of professing evangelicals voted for Obama, including some who frequent this site. I contend it’s much ado about nothing.

The entire political system is corrupt and is idolatry at its finest. :)

27   Matt    
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm

The thing I thought was funny was that the Joseph Faraha article had ads with a scantily clad Ann Coulter. How come none of the odms were offended by that?

28   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Ann Coulter is the female epitome of self righteousness and a caustic mdismissiveness of anything not “Coulterized”. Another shining example of how politics compromizes our Christianity.

29   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Rick,

I tend to agree with that assessment. I went to her personal webpage or blog one day looking for writing…and what did I find but more photos of the skankily scantily clad bastion of conservatism. Talk about the ‘painted girls….’

30   nc    
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:32 pm

eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwww

Ann Coulter.

Ick.

31   John Hughes    
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:22 pm

But Obama made the 10 best six-pack list! (Fox News) I wonder what Dick Cheny would like like in a swim suit?

32   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

But Obama made the 10 best six-pack list! (Fox News) I wonder what Dick Cheny would like like in a swim suit?

LOL, the whole reaction to those Obama photos is so funny. It’s not that Obama is that ripped, really. I mean he looks like a pretty average guy to me, but it just confirms that old saw – “Politics is Hollywood for ugly people”. ;-)

(I kid, I kid…. well… sorta)

33   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm

we can’t complain about WHAT he prays because he hasn’t prayed it yet.

Jerry, I assume by “we”, you mean “those of us that are actually rational”. ADMs and their ilk routinely gripe about that which hasn’t happened yet. Generally, it’s because one of their favorite targets is speaking at a conference where someone might not be wearing a tie. But this isn’t that different. I think it’s just the Christmas rush and such that hasn’t brought out the “predictions” of what Warren will pray.

34   John Hughes    
December 24th, 2008 at 9:50 am

tmz.com/2008/12/23/rick-warren-out-of-the-closet/

RW **is** a media wh–e. There I said it. I have been really, REALLY, trying to give him the benefit of a doubt, due in part to views expressed here, but antics like this. I mean come on. Let’s look beyond his supposed compassion and willingness to mingle with “sinners”. That is all well and good. But this could only be a premeditated photo-op with the sole purpose of doing damage control to his marketability, but feel free to spin away.

I’m disgusted **again**. I argued here last year PDL is a franchise and that my main problem with the Church Growth Movement is that it packages Jesus and markets Him just like any other project. This like this manufactured photo-op and RW’s recent speaking at a Muslim function to promote PDL (not Jesus Christ) just like he did at a Jewish convention a few years ago only reinforce he is not out to advance Christ’s kingdom but his own.

35   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 24th, 2008 at 9:53 am

John – I garee with you although in different words. However I continue to believe he has the right motives. Sometimes our right motives go against the teaching of Scripture.

36   John Hughes    
December 24th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Rick: I continue to believe he has the right motives.

I admire your generous spirit. All I am hearing at this point from RW is “quack, quack, quack, waddle, waddle, waddle” There comes a point where the evidence demands a verdict.

37   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
December 24th, 2008 at 11:23 am

What do you make of the video here? (also, in light of John’s link to TMZ above):

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=8529

38   Bo Diaz    
December 24th, 2008 at 11:33 am

I’m disgusted **again**. I argued here last year PDL is a franchise and that my main problem with the Church Growth Movement is that it packages Jesus and markets Him just like any other project.

You mean instead of packaging and marketing Him the way your church does?

39   Neil    
December 24th, 2008 at 11:48 am

John,

This just goes to show your bias. Warren stops in to buy a few books and gets his picture taken with an openly gay guy – how is that media whoring?

Did Warren post this on his sight? No. Did Warren release this to the press? Not that we know of.

This is an article by a media outlet who could have (and probably did) get the picture from someone other than Warren.

If someone takes a picture of me, and then posts it on a news site (as unlikely as that may be) – does that make me a whore as well?

40   Bo Diaz    
December 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am

BTW, I find the attempted subversion of local congregational leadership by people who think they have any business whatsoever in disciplining congregations and ministers they have nothing to do with far more anti-Biblical than anything Warren has ever done.

And before anyone starts pointing out that Paul did that, I would point out that same Paul was an apostle, and knew the churches personally. Something no one here can say.

Not to mention his inspired writings appoints the elders as the ultimate authority within those churches, thus making appeals to what Paul did self-defeating.

41   Neil    
December 24th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

And before anyone starts pointing out that Paul did that,…

Plus, Paul planted many (if not all) of those churches or mentored their leadership. He didn’t cherry-pick and silvanize.

42   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 24th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

’silvanize’–hands down one of the best words ever invented.

43   john.hughes    
December 24th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Neil: Warren stops in to buy a few books and gets his picture taken with an openly gay guy – how is that media whoring?

Yeah, you’re right, what a co-inky-dink. Let’s see, he just happened to be getting bad press from several of the the leading gay factions, he just happened to be shopping in the gay part of town, he just happened to stop in a gay bookstore and someone just happend to take a picture with him and his gay friend which just happened to end up on the national news and he just happens to let it drop he’s having lunch with Melissa E in a couple of days.

Happens everyday. My bad.

44   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
December 24th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Yeah, you’re right, what a co-inky-dink.

John, you’re absolutely right.

You’d have to be willfully blind to not see through this particularly transparent display. A campaigning politician would do no less by way of damage control.

45   John Hughes    
December 24th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Neil: This just goes to show your bias. Warren stops in to buy a few books and gets his picture taken with an openly gay guy – how is that media whoring?

Yes, Neil and I’m sure RW just pays his nationally prominent PR firm that manages his public image a stipend out of the goodness of his heart.

46   Bo Diaz    
December 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

Yes, Neil and I’m sure RW just pays his nationally prominent PR firm that manages his public image a stipend out of the goodness of his heart.

What’s the matter? Jealous?

47   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 24th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Matt,

#27

Oh there was at least one person out there that was offended…

:smile:

iggy

48   Neil    
December 24th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Yeah, I’m sure Warren and TMZ are tight (:rolleyes)

But so what though – nothing he has done is wrong. I for the life of me cannot understand why people trash a brother in Christ, using in “popularity” for the good of other and the furtherance of the kingdom… I might venture some speculation… but I won’t, unlike others I cannot discern the motives and the heart of someone else

49   Neil    
December 24th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Yes, Neil and I’m sure RW just pays his nationally prominent PR firm that manages his public image a stipend out of the goodness of his heart.

And now you judge his use of money as well?

50   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 24th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

I feel completely comfortable with judging Warren’s motives since mine are always pure as the driven snow, and I have divine X-ray vision and can see his heart. A word of caution, I can use this vision over the internet as well. :roll:

51   nc    
December 25th, 2008 at 12:17 am

Is there something wrong with a public figure having people handle the realities of 24 hours news cycles and all the other media craziness out there?

Is there something implicitly wrong with that? For anyone?

really?

I mean…do I think RW should get the mantle “America’s Pastor”? Heck, pick, NO!

But to think there’s something inherently wrong with a public figure being proactively involved in the management of that reality is kind of silly. Is that what’s being implied in these statements above?

52   Break the Terror    http://breaktheterror.wordpress.com
December 25th, 2008 at 5:27 am

Yeah, you’re right, what a co-inky-dink. Let’s see, he just happened to be getting bad press from several of the the leading gay factions, he just happened to be shopping in the gay part of town, he just happened to stop in a gay bookstore and someone just happend to take a picture with him and his gay friend which just happened to end up on the national news and he just happens to let it drop he’s having lunch with Melissa E in a couple of days.

You’re right.

*earth shatters*

I agree with you.

;)

(Though, to be fair, Melissa Etheridge initiated contact with Warren. But all the “ooh lookuh me now, I’m shopping in gay store take picture with gay guy can’t see him recoiling after I leave store more pictures more pictures more pictures”? Media whore…who counts on people being stupid, on both sides of the proverbial aisle.)

53   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am

I mean…do I think RW should get the mantle “America’s Pastor”? Heck, pick, NO! – nc

I’m not a big fan of Warren, though I’ll defend him against silvanizing attacks. That said, while I agree with nc, I’d rather have the media call Warren as oppossed to Pat Robertson, or how they used to call on Jerry Fallwell… I’ll take Warren as the face of faith over either of those.

54   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 11:41 am

America’s pastor?

Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

55   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 11:43 am

Yeah – I wonder why he’s not targeted by the ADM’s

56   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 11:55 am

Wilson,

I hope Warren does not pray for revival at the inauguration It would be inappropriate.

But someone is gonna blog that he didn’t do it right…

57   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Revival is for the church, not a nation. I think ceremonial and perfunctory prayers are worthless. Kind of like opening prayers at church services:

“Lord, thank you for this day, bless our troops, and bless us in this service. Amen”

It is obvious that Warren is a humble guy who believes he is helping people, and many he has. I find it repulsive and self righteous to ignore all his good work, including he and his wife ministering extensively to African AIDs sufferers, and treat him like the anti-christ.

I do not like his purpose driven approach or political involvement, however he is a brother in Christ who has given a lifetime of service.

58   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
December 25th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Rick Warren did something right- and I give him props
Chad may not like it, but he did state that we must repent and place faith in Christ to be saved.

59   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

PB,

I think your contributions to the various threads here would be much better if you wouldn’t constantly tell us what other people, say Chad, may or may not like. Seriously, please don’t make it personal. Ideas are one thing; people are something else. Can you show a little charity?

jerry

60   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
December 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

Jerry #59

You are right, I am wrong. I am sorry that I am giving Chad a hard time over his universalism.

Have a blessed Christmas.

61   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

Pastorboy,

And I am having a hard time over you telling us we’re trying to destroy the Bible.

Neil

62   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
December 25th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

The question is what does Chad have to do with your statement about Warren? Nothing.
Now, you saying that we’re trying to destroy the Bible over here that’s another story…

63   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Pastorboy,

I thought you said you were having a hard time – that’s what piqued my response – sorry I misread that.

64   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

I will be surprsied when some ODMs ever post one article with a charitable view of Rick Warren about anything. That is one reason why their views lose credibility, even when correct, because they are monolithic and unreasonable and refuse to show the slightest bit of grace for the ones on their anti-christ list.

Even when RW paid for Chris R. to come to Saddleback and met with him, most of his enemies said that show of hospitality was RW’s way of manipulation. I continue to strive to arrive on the summit of self inerrancy.

65   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Rick Warren did something right- and I give him props – PB

Really?

The title ends with a question mark, which, since you say he did it right must mean amazement or surprise – some prop.

You say you watched with a critical ear because Warren has wrecked the Gospel multiple times – some prop.

You said you were “pleasantly surprised” that he got it right (right according to you) – some prop.

An ‘course, you had to correct him on a point of theology as a tag – some prop.

Neil

66   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

I wanted to praise Warren for brushing his teeth this morning, but then I realized he was just doing it to placate the gay community. :)

67   Neil    
December 25th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

I used to think it would be difficult to be as negative as your average ADM… always finding fault, appearing so joyless… I’m sure they are not as joyless they appear.

I figured it must be really hard work finding the down-side to every ministry, the dark-lining on every cloud, the “yeah-but” to everything.

Then I posted the link to the Roches, a really good version of the Hallelujah Chorus with historic significance to me… and out came more negativity. At that point I realized – it’s not work, it takes little or no effort, something inside then is just wired to point out any flaw they see, to suck the joy and glory out of anything they don’t understand, and if they cannot find a flaw or fault – they manufacture one.

Neil

68   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

Neil – My kids often repeat something I told them when they were children.

“Hate has a unique energy”.

69   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
December 25th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

Some people just like to see the world burn.

~The Dark Knight

70   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
December 25th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

The Roches were very talented.

It is just sad that as you read a bit of their biography that they sang the hallelujah chorus, but really didn’t connect the dots.

I hope one day they will. That rendition would be nice at Saddleback and would attract ’seekers’.

71   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 25th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

George Fredrik Handel could not be considered a dedicated Christian and in fact wrote extensively in the secular world. He never married which to this day gives way to speculation.

So the next time you hear the “Halleluiah Chorus” sung by people who understand the glory of God, remember the author probably did not meet that standard as well.

Balloon burst – sorry. :sad:

72   Break the Terror    http://breaktheterror.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 12:37 am

George Fredrik Handel could not be considered a dedicated Christian and in fact wrote extensively in the secular world. He never married which to this day gives way to speculation.

More than speculation.

;)

Just one of the multitudes of gay composers and artists over time who have provided the artistic mosaic of Christendom.

Hope everyone had a blessed Christmas.

73   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 26th, 2008 at 2:15 am

Once again PB, knows the heart of all men and women and knows that the Roches did not know what they sang about… though they did gospel songs and a Christmas album… He may be right… but who is PB to judge the hearts of others?

Sounds more like Gods job to me… not his.

Funny though the guy who claims to “know” so much of others when commenting… often states the most ridiculous things as if they were biblical…

But hey … he is consistent… at least in his flaws.

iggy

74   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 26th, 2008 at 8:57 am

I can vividly remmeber that as an idependent baptist I was always judging/discerning everyone and everything. Everyone but my little clan was liberal and not separated from the world and therefore unapproved by God Himself.

Of course now I wait at least two hours before finalizing God’s judgment. :cool:

75   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 10:54 am

#65

You are right. I was amazed. His theology is very questionable. His approach to church growth is a great concern of mine (because of our denominations’ affection towards it) as well as his syncretism with other religions.

And he still had question marks for me in the short amount of time that he did preach! But he did say something right!

I will state again that I believe that Rick Warren is to be admired for giving 90 percent of his book proceeds away and working ‘for free’ as a Pastor. But, unfortunately he is- and God is to receive the glory.

76   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 11:21 am

I will state again that I believe that Rick Warren is to be admired for giving 90 percent of his book proceeds away and working ‘for free’ as a Pastor. But, unfortunately he is- and God is to receive the glory. – PB

What is unfortunate about it?

77   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 11:22 am

His theology is very questionable. – PB

Oh please!

78   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 11:23 am

And he still had question marks for me in the short amount of time that he did preach! But he did say something right! – PB

Your arrogance knows no bounds.

79   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 11:25 am

….as well as his syncretism with other religions.

I know I’ll regret this… but “Such as?”

80   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 11:25 am

Chad may not like it, but he did state that we must repent and place faith in Christ to be saved.

lol PB, you are obsessed.

I laughed when I read this – really. What is so funny is what gets lost in all the arguments where I have to spend 90% of my time refuting false assumptions and straw men. Sooooo, I laugh because I couldn’t agree more – you must repent and put faith in Christ to be saved. Why would you think otherwise?

*watches as PB’s head explodes*

81   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 11:43 am

Chad – I knew that to be the case (that you held to the need to repent and put faith in Christ) and almost responded as such… but I was afraid to rekindle the storm (mixed metaphors aside).

I guess it’s just another example of PB not understanding what he opposes.

[Disclaimer: PB - this is not license for you to say that I or others from the blog support universalism, nor that we are trying to promote it or destroy the Bible]

82   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

And I am not about to jump into it again. It’s Christmas.

I have been considering nc’s idea of beginning a sort of book club offsite – a place to discuss that issue and others and allow only those who have read a book along with everyone else the ability to comment.

Over at Sound and Silence I will be joining Nic Patton and some others in January as we read and discuss “If Grace Is True: Why Everyone Will be in Heaven”, covering one chapter a week.

I do hope my comment to PB above festers. I remember early on in my Old Testament studies in undergrad having some problems with what my prof was saying and how it seemed to conflict with everything I thought the Bible to be about in my conservative upbringing as a PK. Some people got up and walked out, vowing never to return. I will never forget the day he simply said, “Listen, I assure you, few people have as high a view of Scripture’s inspiration and authority as I.”

It took my the better part of 2 years to reconcile that statement with what I was learning. Turns out, he was right.

grace and peace.

83   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

“I knew that to be the case (that you held to the need to repent and put faith in Christ)”

Those words leave out a significant difference in how people arrive at that salvidic process. I believe Chad’s view includes a post mortum evangelistic process that is akin to the “irresistable grace” that Calvin espoused. That is not a minute difference.

84   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

I agree Rick, there are very significant errors in Chad’s universalism – that we are NOT gonna start up with again.

Pastorboy’s comments about Chad illustrate how sloppy Pastorboy is when it comes to other people’s positions, comments, and how he responds. He does not bother to respond to what Chad actually believes, he just creates a caricature in his mind and snipes at that… but that’s his usual M.O. anyway…

85   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

I agree Rick, there are very significant errors in Chad’s universalism

Well, if Chad were here I think he would disagree.

It may just be that there are significant errors in way some interpret the Chadian dialectic. :)

But we won’t get into that here.

86   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 26th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Slippery.

But we won’t get into that here. :)

87   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

I prefer squishy.

88   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Rick,

The logical conclusion that Calvin came to was Universalism. That is the reason he came up with “limited atonement”…

But then there is my view that allows for Calvin’s Universalism conclusion then brings into understanding that we are not saved by the Cross… but by the Life of Christ…

That is where Calvin missed it in my book and why there is universal atonement while not having to have all saved. Though again many universal atonement people (as Chad may be considered) confuse salvation and reconciliation… But in the end if you remove limited atonement from Calvinism, you get Universalism.

iggy

89   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 26th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Iggy – Suggesting to me inconsistencies in Calvin’s theology is like giving heroin to an addict.

90   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Stop it…
stop it! stop it! stop it!

91   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Well, if Chad were here I think he would disagree. – PB

Of course he would… we all know the differences we hold…but that’s not the point. The point is Pastorboy’s sloppy misrepresentation and how regularly he does so.

92   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Don’t worry, Neil. I’m not bitin’.

peace.

93   Neil    
December 26th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Peace.

94   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Hey guys, don’t tell Chad, but I think there is someone here impersonating Chad.

95   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
December 26th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

shhhh, be wery, wery quiet. I’m hunting wabbits.

:)

Jerry, how are those new books?

96   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2008 at 9:49 am

I just saw this article this morning. It seems Rick Warren just keeps on getting it from all sides. Now people are complaining that he might actually mention Jesus is his prayer.

Shouldn’t the ADMs be defending him now?

97   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
December 31st, 2008 at 10:01 am

It’s not as if Warren is a Mitt Romney, GQ looking slickster. He is a rolly-polly, good natured guy who speak very pragmatically. I believe he over pragmatizes the faith, makes it into an equation, but he seems very sincere and does a lot of good.

The whole nation will be listening to his “prayer”, not speaking to God, but listening for its content. Here are two possibilities:

A Pro-ADM Prayer:

Dear God of all creation,

We thank you that you are about to destroy this nation and its Sodomites, we relsih that coming day when you will prove our view of you was right and all the rest a fairy tale. If you chose brimstone as your weapon of choice it would put the cherry on the top of our cake!

Your faithful warrior,

Rick Warren – converted ADM

***********OR*************

A Liberal Caricature Prayer

Dearest Lord and Mother,

We are grateful for your continuing approval of all we do. By the way, Barak says hello and thanks. Keep the money coming, and please know that all religions are coming Your way!! We can’t wait.

Rick Warren – source of all that is evil

98   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2008 at 10:48 am

Rick Warren always reminded me of John Candy – especially in the 40 Days of Purpose videos. When our church was doing those studies, I had visions of Uncle Buck every time Warren laughed in those videos.