Chris Rosebrough agrees that the best defense is a good offense.

Well, it does not get much more offensive than THIS.

HERE is the original.

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 24th, 2008 at 6:31 pm and is filed under Blogging, In Tone and Character. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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53 Comments(+Add)

1   Neil    
September 24th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

If you get past the shallow, Howard Stern like shock value of the tract you will see Chris R. uses the same old, warmed-over false dichotomies.

Not only that, but the “authority” quoted is the secular media and even then the authority is selectively quoted to force her to blame the same suspects as always.

This is shameful on soooo many levels.

2   nc    
September 24th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

Was that some attempt at parody and visual satire?

Cuz I could honestly see some of the imams genuinely try to use something like that to “market” their churches to disaffected idolaters of a bygone era that never really existed in the form they wish it had.

“market”…ironic…I know…

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 24th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

I guess the Word isn’t enough, we must use sensationalism and shock like these posters and the “Pirate Christian Radio” which looks more like an emergent/seeker label than a confessional Christian. Isn’t that what Rick Warren does? Doesn’t he use object lessons to get a point across?

The word “pirate” is like saying “hoodlum” radio. A pirate was and is a stealing, raping, and pillaging sinner. Unless you are allowed to use it in the cultural sense. :cool:

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 24th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

Also I have heard the word “pirate” to mean something different in today’s parlance. Something demeaning.

5   Neil    
September 24th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

…and the misuse of logic only adds insult to the visual ingury…

6   Eddie Guerrero    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc
September 24th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

If you think Rosebrough is misusing logic then you must think that God also engages in the same misuse of logic.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst” (Amos 8:11-13 KJV).

I think Rosebrough’s postcard idea gives a great visual representation of a Famine of the Word. Not only that, I think these postcards are a great idea. I hope that some pastors are brave and bold enough to send them out.

7   Bo Diaz    http://biblegateway.com
September 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

The fact that you think you’ve properly exegeted that passage from Amos is proof there is a famine of God’s word, it just happens to be for ODMs. You remind me a bit of the dwarfs at the end of The Last Battle.

Unfortunately for the rest of us the ODMs are also experiencing a famine when it comes to class.

8   Neil    
September 24th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

Eddie,

Liking the shock value of that photo is one thing (though I would just as soon not be around anyone who finds exploitation of suffering as proper)… thinking that that verse has anything to do with Chris’ poor use of logic and sources is, well just silly.

Neil

9   Neil    
September 24th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

I understand not liking someone’s theology or methodology… but this is offensive in that it exploits the misery of the person in the picture… as well as comparing the servants of God to whomever caused the man to become so emaciated.

Shameful, nothing less.

10   Neil    
September 24th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

Not only is it exploitive and ungodly, it’s a fallacy to position being relevant and feeling good as opposites of obedience to Christ.

11   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 24th, 2008 at 9:09 pm

It is interesting that the same picture wasn’t used to elicit a humanitarian effort for the hungry.

12   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 24th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

I think you all are missing the point.

I mean, I hope the card is satire, but it makes an excellent point. I would be willing to send out the words, not the picture, because it is shocking. I would change it only in that I would send a picture of a set of dry bones instead of a human.

The garbage that is preached in many seeker sensitive churches is appaling. Dr. Seuss messages? The BEatles Sermon Series? I love the 80’s series? Come on! when has the Bible ceased being enough?

That is not to mention the wacked out, human centered, universalist tripe being preached in many Emergent churches!

Then, we have the mainline denominations that promote the same type of all accepting, all roads lead to heaven garbage!

The people are starving. They are not running to WICCA and out of the churches for lack of community, they are running to these places for lack of being fed on the authoritative scripture! Pastors, the blood is on our hands! Myself included, if I preach not the Word of God! If we refuse to proclaim this Word as authoratative and a saving faith in Christ a the only means of salvation, we are dooming our hearers!

This does not excuse those who call themselves Christians and refuse to read and to apply the scriptures, if we as individuals do not hunger and thirst for more of God and His Word, have we really been saved?

Thanks, Chris, for being so brave and throwing down this gauntlet. This is offensive, but we need to be offended.

13   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
September 24th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Thanks, Chris, for being so brave and throwing down this gauntlet. This is offensive, but we need to be offended.

Ahhh…a breath of fresh…nevermind.

Let’s all applaud Chris R. for his brave commitment to truth. His adamant stance for the conviction of Gods word.

Puhleeze…Chris R. digs the attention. Plain and simple. If Mark Driscoll was to do this everybody and their brother would be howling about “potty mouth preachers” and “shock value shysters.” He’s no different than any other sinner. Attached to ourselves pointing out specks while we’ve got planks.

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 24th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

We need to make a postcard with those two ugly guys and the caption says:

Some pastors are teaching false doctrine which makes mutant believers. :)

15   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 24th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

I find the postcard telling of a particular attitude more than anything. The boot is coming down and crushing a building, which to me represents the institution and power structure of the church, not that actual church itself. So it seems to me indicative of a group of people who are afraid of losing their power and institutional control of their little kingdoms.

I say, let them our institution be crushed if that’s what it takes to get back to where God wants us.

***edit: Oops, I posted this comment somewhere it wasn’t meant to be. I thought this article was referring to another one of Chris R’s stupid pictures. I should have followed the link first…

16   Joe    http://joemartino.name
September 24th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

Yeah, exploiting people who were starved to death (which is what he is doing in the picture) looks just like Jesus. What a crock.

17   Joe    http://joemartino.name
September 24th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Phil,
Wrong dumb poster.

18   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 24th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Joe,
Yeah, I went back and looked. That picture is offensive. Chris R. has officially been blinded by his own hatred.

19   Joe    http://joemartino.name
September 24th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Yeah, when my wife told me about that I was really saddened to see it. How can one justify such a thing.

20   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 12:03 am

Once again methods are confused with content this time by Pastorboy.

While it is true that there is a lot of garbage being preached, we should judge on the content, not the method…

21   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 12:09 am

I wonder which the Father finds more offensive… the Wiccan who worships his creation but not him, the Emergent that tries new methods and sometimes makes a fool of himself, the liberal who preaches the Word but denies its power, or the believing Preacher more worried about style and tradition and being right.

22   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 12:18 am

As for people starving for the Word – baloney… there are more copies of the Scripture available to Americans, there is a higher level of literacy achieved, there are more sermons available on-line than at anytime in the history of the world… a lot are bad, a lot are good…

But I forgot, we must ignore all that so we can fit reality into our ethnocentric view of eschatology.

I am sick. I am grieved. I am utterly disgusted by the filth spewing forth from those who think anyone who does not do it there way must be denying the authoritative Scriptures.

This is not bravery. This not boldness. This is certainly not reflecting the love of Christ. This is not being an ambassador. It’s macho bullshit is what it is.

23   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 12:20 am

Pastorboy, in the post above I transitioned from addressing your comment to a general rant against ODMdom in general…

24   BCP    
September 25th, 2008 at 5:45 am

“This is the time for faithful Bible preachers to reach out to those who are quitting church and offer them something they haven’t been able to get… A good Biblical Meal.”

I don’t understand this. People “quit church” for various reasons:

1) apostasy (Scripturally – parable of the sower… also in everyday life)
2) boredom with sights and sounds (music/drama)
3) boredom with smells and bells (sacramentalism)
4)…

A blanket statement like that can cause unnecessary confusion. However, I accept that there will be those who genuinely desire to pursue God in Christ. The “food” will be for them.

What is “A good Biblical Meal”? How can that ever help those who are “dead in trespasses and sins”?

25   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 25th, 2008 at 6:13 am

Millions upon millions of people have quit church already, but they still go and sit for an hour on Sunday. But there are droves of people leaving church altogether and setting up home wiccan churches. :cool:

The wiccan churches do have good refreshments, though. And there is never any littering on their property.

26   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 25th, 2008 at 6:14 am

“What is “A good Biblical Meal””

Loaves and fishes.

27   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
September 25th, 2008 at 7:48 am

So much for human dignity.

Chris R has become what he hates (oh, wait, that’s PB’s line). Uh, Chris R has…demonstrated that he really has limited artistic capabilities.

Ironically, before he shut it down, Brian Jones was complaining at his blog that Christians spend too much time reading their Bibles. I can’t figure it out, who is right? Are we gluttons or are we starving? Are we obese or anorexic?

28   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am

Something that really gets under my skin is advertising that pitch one’s own church against other churches. What makes people think that the vision that God gave their church is better than the one God gave to another? Pride? If it is pride… SHAKY GROUND!

When will these people get it into their heads that we ALL have our role to play in building the Kingdom of God? I wonder if God gets as frustrated as I do about this… :x

29   Chris P.    
September 25th, 2008 at 11:26 am

This blog has become a real “yawner”.

“He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor
asleeps”
He better avoid all of your pious and sublime thoughts, or that passage will have to be removed from scripture.

BTW Eugene, the one church has one vision. God doesn’t care about your unity through diversity bunk, so He isn’t frustrated at all.

30   Bo Diaz    http://biblegateway.com
September 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

BTW Eugene, the one church has one vision. God doesn’t care about your unity through diversity bunk, so He isn’t frustrated at all.

That’s what the Pope says.

31   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
September 25th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Thanks for driving by Chris P.

How’s your purpose driven church doing?

32   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
September 25th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Chris P.,

Where is your blog? Your book? Your articles? Your research? I’d really like to read your far more pious versions, uh, visions, and your deeply profound exegesis of the Scripture.

Seriously. Where is your research and writing so that it may receive a parsing and examination?

jerry

33   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

“He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor
asleeps”
He better avoid all of your pious and sublime thoughts, or that passage will have to be removed from scripture.

What?

34   Neil    
September 25th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

When will these people get it into their heads that we ALL have our role to play in building the Kingdom of God? I wonder if God gets as frustrated as I do about this…

It reminds me of the body metaphor Paul uses on the Corinthians. Basically we see one body part saying another body part has no place in the body. Or as you said, they think their vision is the only vision.

35   nc    
September 25th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Well, at least Chris P’s latest purpose driven drive by is back to his good ‘ol fashioned disphoric arrogance/anger…

I’d take that any day over disphoric bucking for a job that shall remain unnamed lest I get accused of demon possession and blasphemy…

Thanks Chris P…at least your consistent…wrong, but consistent.

36   nc    
September 25th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Another thing…

for all your hatred of all things “papist” you sure seem to looooove the magisterium of your own opinions.

And we’re the ones suffering from debilitating self-importance?

nice…

37   amy    
September 25th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

There was once a picture of a baby who had suffered an abortion (partial-birth I think) on Slice.

It was the worst abortion-related picture I had ever seen. And I so appreciated it being posted because, for me personally, it really “woke” something in me, to make abortion an even uglier word in my mind.

I saw, in that picture, a real human who had suffered, and I grieved.

I don’t think a picture like that should ever be taken and used in a way that cheapens the suffering of that baby.

The picture Chris R used brings to my mind a whole generation of people who suffered starvation and torture in the Holocaust. To use such a picture for shock value is being extremely inconsiderate of people who have suffered in a way that most of us can’t fathom.

A picture like that used in the manner that he has used it “cheapens” the suffering. It should instead only be used to awaken people to the suffering that some have endured.

38   nc    
September 25th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

hear, hear, Amy.

It also devalues the horror when it actually does happen again…

I’m sad too because I’m sure someone will set up some false dilemma saying that the horror of someone’s spiritual state is far more important than the body’s suffering in that picture. Ick.

Thanks for your words.
Seriously.

39   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 7:53 am

Sensationalism can be appropriate sometimes, but never at the expense of a person’s dignity. I abhor posters that use goth teenagers, or gay men in compromising positions, or abortion fetuses, or even the angry faces of unattractive feminists. We as followers of the Lord of Mercy should have a higher view of compassion.

We sometimes argue about a high view of Scripture and that is fine, but we need to also have a high view of what Scriptures teach to US, not just how Scripture constructs a systematic theology.

40   John Hughes    
September 26th, 2008 at 8:14 am

the angry faces of unattractive feminists.

Thanks, Rick. That’s going to stick with me a while.

41   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 26th, 2008 at 10:46 am

I actually met with Rosebrough for breakfast months ago, then spoke with him on the phone, and attempted to help him — all to no avail.

At breakfast we discussed:

- our common faith,
- the actual teachings of Warren,
- the need for a kinder/gentler apologetics (and he agreed),
- the rise in imbalance among people online when it came to criticizing others,
- his own views that Warren was not nearly as bad as people were making him out to be

– and I have a WITNESS to all of this. It was a fellow Lutheran who Chris respected, who TOLD HIM that Warren was not a heretic, was not a false teacher, and was not someone who taught a law-based gospel.

The breakfast took place soon after he had attended the Saddleback conference, and he was starting to soften up a bit on Warren, which began with his posting of a heartfelt thanks to Rick as a gracious host.

His words were met with a barrage of criticism — i.e., angry condemnations for saying anything kind about Warren; accusations that he was possibly going the way of Warren; fears that he was losing discernment through Rick’s slick talk; and that he was failing to be discerning by not moving forward with more criticisms.

Chris expressed his dismay at such responses and seemed to be a bit thrown by all the negativity that was being directed at him. It was too much for him, I think, and so he bounced back even more extreme than ever — now culminating with the kind of distasteful/offensive material we’ve been seeing from him lately.

He even went so far as to revel in threatening me publicly with legal action because I had said online that he was accusing Rick Warren of teaching salvation by works of the law. He actually threatened a lawsuit against me for allegedly misrepresenting him (no complaints about CR for doing that in violation of 1 Cor. 6, interestingly) — and yet now we see up at his website: “Rick Warren’s Law Based ‘Gospel.’”

Overall, Rosebrough aside, this has all devolved into a online tragedy within the church for everyone to see — i.e., a mob-like mentality with cult overtones that sucks in unsuspecting believers who are sincerely concerned with truth, but who are getting false information, lies, slander, misinformation, disinformation, faulty research, twisted facts, and nothing less than hate-talk.
(Note: In this comment, I am not directly or indirectly referring to, or naming, anyone specifically as a cult-leader, cultist, cult supporter — but I am making a general observation about an unidentified group of online readers/writers scattered throughout cyberspace).

Sensationalism, insensitivity, distasteful imagery (as Amy also noted above in #37, and now the CR pic), offensive language, infantile mockery, personal threats, and juvenile name-calling have become their modus operandi — just read some of their comments. Again I say, it is a tragedy.

This now has NOTHING — seriously, NOTHING — to do with Rick Warren or any other person any more. We are dealing with completely different issues here — some very dark and sinful issues. I think these issues might be what we actually need to start talking about. How can we help these people? Can we help them? What is the proper way of responding to such a situation?

Pray, my brothers and sisters. Pray.

RA

42   amy    
September 26th, 2008 at 10:48 am

Rick,
Just for clarity, I was not condemning the particular abortion-related picture I saw, because it made the reality of abortion more real for me. It was used to show the horrors of abortion, not to make an object lesson about something else, as was the picture of the starving man.

43   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 26th, 2008 at 10:54 am

TY for clarification, Amy. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

In that case, then, I will use it to illustrate the offensiveness of what is being done in the name of discernment. I certainly found it TOTALLY unnecessary and unacceptable as a tool to make a point about abortion — but that’s just me.

RA

44   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 10:56 am

Amy – I understand your point. It would not be necessary to show a soldier with his head blown off to bring across the point of the horrors of war. That is what I mean.

45   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 26th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

AND NOW WE HAVE THIS FROM ROSEBROUGH: “Did My Starvation Postcard Go Too Far or Not Far Enough? After listening to the controversy that was ignited after I posted my first concept postcard I am now convinced that it didn’t go far enough despite it’s ugliness and shock. I know that statement will further upset some people and disappoint others.”

AND FROM ONE OF HIS ADORING FANS: “It didn’t go far enough. It should have been a postcard picturing a corpse.”

RA

46   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

It should have been a child’s corpse, dead from starvation, and blanketed by flies, lying to a dinner table, complete with several great roasts, all the sumptous delicacies, with every dinner guest plump and satisfied, and with all the male waiters bowing to the applause of men as they point in disdain to the dead child’s remains.

Real Christianity on display here.

47   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

It should read “lying next to a dinner table”.

48   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 26th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

I know you joke — but do not put that beyond a possibility….in fact, you might have just given some ideas that will be used.

RA

49   Bo Diaz    http://biblegateway.com
September 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Better yet, each postcard made should be hand delivered to each person and customized by having a dead, pissed on corpse of a loved one. Why stop there? Lets go dig up corpses and deliver them personally!

There’s some kind of messed up disconnect in the mind of an ODM that you can deliberately exploit suffering like that to make a rhetorical point, but then go into full-on Papal ex-communication mode if someone says “shit”.

50   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

In case anyone was curious, the picture is a Union POW that was in the notrious Confederate prison called Andersonville.

Just remember that if you are in a non seeker-sensitive, non purpose-driven church, statistics prove you will not quit church. Glad that is settled.

51   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Someone please tell me another and much stronger word for hubris. I cannot think of anything more self righteous than suggesting that my church preaches the Word and others look like this man.

It is one thing tosuggest we should preach the Word, it is another to claim to have arrived and use a picture like that to label all those of your choosing who do not.

I got saved listening to Billy Graham on television, the reformed church down the block never came to my door. I am still looking for a word that can be used to describe those who brag about thatwhich has been given to them by grace.

I’ll think about it.

52   Neil    
September 27th, 2008 at 9:06 am

I cannot think of anything more self righteous than suggesting that my church preaches the Word and others look like this man. Rick F.

It’s even worse than that… Chris R. says that pastors “refuse” to feed their people. So, not only is he exploiting the suffering of others for his own gain, Chris R. is comparing other servants of God to those who starved this man.

This is the Howard Stern of Evangelism…

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am

I have found the word combination I will use when the self righteousness and hubris necessitates the strongest word possible.

Colossal vainglory.

This term refers to an attitude that so discounts God’s grace, both in the person and in the object about which he speaks, that it goes beyond generic self righteousness, pride, and even hubris. It reveals such a disregard of that person’s own stand of grace and so that now he feels compelled and justified in lifting up the works of his own hands by demeaning the works of others.

Colossal Vainglory.

When you use your preaching as an example of the perfect spiritual feast while others are purposely starving their sheep, that term applies. And when you use excruciating pictures of the sad plight of others as a mocking illustration of your view of others, that term applies. And when you entire ministry is consumed with the negative critique of others with little or no editorializing about your own shortcomings, that term applies. When you suggest that God accepts your worship music and style and abhors most others, that term applies.

Watch for the use of that term in the future. (It is officially copyrighted!)