Wiccan Flight
There have been a number of posts on Slice about what I am calling the Wiccan Flight. The Christian Post claims that Harry Potter, Charmed and Sabrina the teenage Witch might somehow be responsible for this phenomenon. But, it is highly unlikely that someone watched Buffy and decided to become a wiccan priest. Just as it is unlikely for someone to start fighting crime after watching Batman. Changes like that are rooted in deeper places.
I found this quote quite telling “s our culture becomes more and more isolated and busy (and as real relationships are replaced by texting, IM, etc.), young people are starving for real relationships and true community, as well as for a powerful experience of faith.” Hmmm. Community, experiential faith, relationship based. Sounds alot like another growing movement that the ODMs equally hate.
When will these guys realize that people are done with programs, tradition for tradition sake, dry church services, music that is worshiped more than worshiped to, irrelevant teachings, politics over who can lead sunday school and what color the walls should be painted, and a once spiritual movement that looks more like a well oiled corporation (board room and all).
The World Has Changed.
People are looking for community, authentic faith, an encounter with the living God and a revolution that is going to change their soul. Unfortunately people are finding that the wiccan faith is much closer to that than First Baptist down the road. I hate to say it, but McLaren might have written more truth than not when he said everything must change. The question is, is Christianity willing to in order to reach my generation?
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Nathan - this is the same old argument warmed over and over again. There is no doubt that by normalizing something that is otherwise deviant, the tendency is that more people will embrace it or see it as a-OK.
Just talk to a few marketing people at large and well-known brands. They know only too well the impact they can have with repeated exposure.
I am not saying that someone watching Buffy will automatically be drawn into Wicca, but at the same time, by introducing it at an “innocent” level, people begin to see it in a different light.
For example, sitcoms have done the job of normalizing the homosexual lifestyle (which sitcom doesn’t have a gay character now?). This impacts peoples’ views on the “rightness” of this lifestyle. People may not become gay, but they adjust their morals to embrace it.
This is contrary to your argument above: someone becoming a witch because they watch Buffy. To draw this parallel is simple misrepresentation. It’s like saying people stay home and watch NFL all day Sunday because it offers more sense of community than church (and I’m not even a baptise:)).
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
That’s probably true
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
The whole article that Ingrid links to fails to pass the BS test for me. This paragraph just seems so bogus to me.
Have these authors been living under a rock? There have always been references to witchcraft in culture as far back as Shakespeare. It doesn’t mean that society as a whole is becoming more accepting of witchcraft. Sure, there is some segment of the populace who are drawn to such things, but there are also a lot of people who just see at as silly.
The claim that Wicca is “one of fastest growing religions is America” is just absurd.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I disagree with this premise. It is really the oldest trick in the book; I am going to worship a god in my image, in my making because I want to feel good and comfortable in the worship of this god. I love me; so I will worship what I love.
Christianity does not need to change as far as orthodoxy, so I disagree with the premise there also. What you are discussing is orthopraxy. And I do not think you and I are too far off. The people want genuine love, commitment, community around a central truth, like was practiced in Acts 2:42-47. They are as tired of the circus church dumbing down the scripture motorcycle crashing antics as we are. I think this is that which we can agree on, we need to get back to the basics; and allow people to choose genuine Christianity or worshipping a god of their own making.
I think we do need to change, we need to go back to meeting together house to house, meeting in public places, listening/teaching the Word of God, praying together, eating together, sharing our goods with one another, and genuinely loving one another. This is what the world is hungering for. Lets get back to the basics.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Perhaps so, but it justifies nothing nor discredits the church. Sure, the church must change in some ways, but just look at Christ Himself: people loved fish and bread, but weren’t too keen on the whole discipleship part.
I find the argument Nathan put forward as very weak. In his effort to discredit SoL, he (perhaps?) inadvertently lends credence to those who have an agenda.
It might be worth considering a documentary like the secular PBS put out called the Persuaders: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/view/#rest.
At the risk of sounding paranoid, it is foolishness to discount the impact seemingly “harmless” introductions to evil carry.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I’d say the late boomers, not generation x, were the first generation raised with wichcraft normalized on TV
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Well they are obviously not getting an encounter with the living God at the local Wiccan assembly. But they do get a true and heavy dose of the counter-culture and this builds community in a stong way. And they may find a more authentic looking faith at a Wiccan event for the same reason.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I don’t follow SoL’s point - other than as an item of news.
If you follow their link to the original story, page two says:
WOW - this could have been written by Dan Kimball in They Like Jesus but not the Church… but if it had it probably would have been attacked, not praised.
Maybe? Probably?
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I find this statement of hers interesting on several levels:
Let us dissect that a little.
1. I thought preaching and God’s Word was sufficient to draw in the elect, especially when you have criticized almost every attempt to reach sinners with relevant community.
2. How do you project a sense of community when you are gleefully attacking sinners with your own mouth?
3. How can you project a sense of community when you cannot even get along with most brothers and sisters in Christ?
4. How will sinners who come to your church feel a sense of community when they see you’ve criticized what they wear and the fact that they touch each other in front of you?
5. How can sinners feel a sense of community from you when you criticize their music, their hair, their makeup, their clothes, and you criticize their idols like Hannah Montana etc. which the devil uses to divert their attention from the gospel?
6. And if by a religion that “emphasizes communty” you mean your nearsighted sect of Christianity, well, speaking as a former lost person who mirrors many of your “loving critiques”, I believe most of the wiccans will say as I would have said - “No Thanks”.
As the guy in Princess Bride said, “You keep using that word “community”. I do not think it means what you think it means!”
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Rick,
That is kinda why I was confused about SoL posting that article… “Community” and “Authenticity” and “Relevance” are hallmarks of the emerging generation and emerging churches - and SoL posts an article in favor of it.
Maybe it’s a trap
Neil
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Nathan,
I enjoy reading your posts on this blog, and usually agree with most of your sentiments involving “discernment” types. I ‘m a practicing Catholic so I’m used to having some very odd “discernments” of my faith presented on “Christian” blogs.
I think the solution you hint at in this post misses the mark a little. The need for human fellowship, real relationships, and authentic faith is indeed human nature, and especially so for young people. I don’t think that’s evidence of a changing world; that’s always been the case. Any human community is capable of meeting these needs (workplace, school, YMCA, Boy Scouts, Sports Team, Rotary Club, Wicca Club, Baptist Sunday go to meeting place, Synagogue, Mosque, or wherever it is that Hindu’s meet). Any human institution can provide the basis to fill that need for real genuine human fellowship.
I think Christians are only setting themselves up for disappointment, if they expect the purpose of “going to Church” on Sunday is to fill that need for human fellowship. I know many people would label my faith tradition as dry services, tradition for traditions sake, irrelevant teaching and music; and sadly in many parishes I’d agree with them, because in a sense they are right. But as long as the scriptures are proclaimed and there’s a priest offering Mass, that’s enough. If Christians focused more on the original “Sunday service” a lot of these arguments would be irrelevant.
Mass = (from the Latin) eta missa est - meaning GO YOU ARE SENT (with a mission)
In my mind, the object of Christian worship is not human fellowship/communion, but communion with Jesus Christ. If we come to church expected to receive something human, we’ve already missed the point. The reason for Sunday worship, is for the Church to be sent out for fellowship with the world 24/7. And we don’t just bring human fellowship (which can be good on its own) we are called to bring Christ.
[Sorry for the long comment, one of my pet peeves :)], Peace
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
If I might weigh here. It has been conclusively demonstrated that shows like Buffy/Charmed and books like Harry Potter have led SOME people toward such thinsg as paganism, the occult, and Wicca.
For children, this doesn’t go much further than basic curiosity and a desire to emulate what they see as cool, fun, new, and in some ways rebellious of the social norms. Of course, this means that SOME of those kids will likely find aspects of that kind of spirituality to be desirable.
We also know from studies that young people introduced to the occult, if it is favorable and they have had very little exposure to it, will adopt the attitudes they first see about it — this also holds true for even older people, in fact, especially when the images are powerful and positive.
So, yes, such things have enticed an unknown number of kids, young people, and even adults to at the very least investigate such alternative forms of spirituality. Even pagans/Wiccans have stated this fact in their own writings — going so far as to respond with fiction/non-fiction books that used advertising appeals to young Harry Potter fans in hopes of hooking them on the real thing. This is all documented in my writings.
Does this mean anyone/everyone who watches Buffy or reads HP is going to become Wiccan? Duh, of course not. But there is an influence there that has been verified by some studies and anecdotal evidence.
Now, I will also add that part of the attraction to things like Paganism, the occult, and Wicca is the overt sense of spirituality and connectedness to otherworldly realities.
This seems to be lacking greatly in today’s Christian churches wherein far too many people seemed locked into do’s & dont’s, dogmatic rules, unbiblical restrictions, ungodly regulations, traditions of man over someone’s personalized one-on-one connectedness to the divine, and formulas formulas formulas that are touted as THE answer to spiritual growth and church health.
IMHO, the church has lost a sense of true spirituality, mysticism (which is NOT a dirty word, btw, all you ODMs), and a sense of union with God — the same God who speaks not just through the Bible, but through dreams, visions, promptings, openness to new ways of doing things, rich symbolism, rites, and rituals.
There seems to be a war being waged by people who simply do NOT want to see, embrace, listen to, or even consider new ways of Christian thinking, feeling, expressing, loving, and growing…… (e.g., ODMs).
If you bring a motorcycle on stage or wear flip-flops on Sunday, you’re am irreverant heretic. If you try to find fresh analogies to explain some points of doctrine like salvation by grace, but you don’t use the words “forensic act of God,” you’re a false teacher. If you light a candle or celebrate lent — you’re a Roman Catholic sympathizer who wants to join with Roma. Sad……
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
RAbanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Brett,
It is an issue of balance. You are right that the need for community is a nearlly universal need. And I asloa gree that a church can set people up for disappointment if community is promoted as the only or even primary purpose of church.
That said, it is also a biblical assumption that believers will/should have community with each other.
Neil
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Actually, the major conduit for the spread of the occult is the label on Arm and Hammer baking soda.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
“But, it is highly unlikely that someone watched Buffy and decided to become a wiccan priest”
I’d agree about priest,but i was under the impression there was an explosion of interest among teenage girls and the wicca faith…I would think Buffy,Angel,Charmed have played a part in that,after all tv shows have a powerful influences on us all don’t they??
One of the more respected Current Affairs shows in the UK, did a show about the growth of teenage girls embracing wicca and magic in the UK, they saw the tv shows as the catalyst…
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Sorry not good at the quote things
Richard said “For children, this doesn’t go much further than basic curiosity and a desire to emulate what they see as cool, fun, new, and in some ways rebellious of the social norms. Of course, this means that SOME of those kids will likely find aspects of that kind of spirituality to be desirable.”
That was exactly what the UK show implied as well..
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Wow, Brett, you actually summed up a lot of my feelings, too. I don’t think we will ever find our need for community fulfilled by any service on Sunday, but I do think it can serve that purpose to some extent. I guess where I part ways with you is the idea that we have to go to priest to receive anything. We’re all priests. It’s an something the Reformers had right in theory, but they really didn’t do much to follow it in practice.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Agreed Neil.
You remind me of one of the saddest realities of our “advanced” society that doesn’t get talked about much by religious or secular folks.
The normal place for humans to have “community” used to be called a “Family”.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Hi Phil,
Don’t know if a fully understand it, but I believe in the “priesthood of all believers” too.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I don’t know. It seems to me that there will always be people who are drawn to such things. It’s like the whole thing with rock music in the 80’s. I remember some of the videos my youth leader showed us on the evils of rock, and how it would lead us into occult practices.
I agree with this. I think one reason some people do chase after the fake is bacause the Church has presented them with a picture of God that is, well, boring. He said all He’s going to say and He’s done all He going to do, and history is all pre-planned, so what else is there? How does one get excited about that kind of God?
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I wonder if certain camps actually rejoice in a former wiccan who gets saved at a mega-church? I wonder if Joe Marino could tell us if there are any of those at MHC?
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Well, OK. It’s not the point of this thread, but I would just say that the idea that we go to a service on Sunday to receive something from one person seems to go against the concept of the priesthood of all believers. I’m not just criticizing Catholics, either, because most Protestant churches only give lip service to the idea.
I guess ideally, the gathering of the saints should be an opportunity for us all to minister to one another.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Ingrid and I are the same age, give or take a few months, and off the top of my head growing up in the ’70s and ’80sI remember:
Bewitched
The Wizard of Oz
HR Puffnstuff (Witchiepoo)
I Dream of Jeannie
The Munsters
the Addams Family
The Ghost and Mrs. Muir
Topper
Jennifer Slept Here
Mission Magic
Casper the ghost and his friend Wendy the Witch
Popeye (Sea Hag)
The Funky Phantom
D&D
Brady Bunch kids animated series (Merlin the sorcerous bird)
and a bunch of Saturday morning cartoons that touched on some part of the occult.
Same stuff, different decade, better production values. Many of those things were criticized in their time as well.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
OK sandman, now you’ve gone too far. I demand you to remove The Wizard of Oz from your list!
Are you suggesting Toto was demon possessed? Or does Toto have some good songs? Remember, it was all a dream - a dream people!
Just some fun, brother!
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
The Waltons were devil worshipers.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
You can even go back further than that and see magic/occult in movies. Just look at Disney movies from the 40’s and 50’s.
Snow White
Sleeping Beauty
Alice in Wonderland
Cinderella
Peter Pan
The Sword in the Stone
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Phil,
That was my original point. We do receive Grace from only one person. (In Persona Christi) I think is the theological lingo.
Believe me, I’m fully aware that if the Lord gives certain gifts to his Ordained ministers, that those gifts are from a source outside of themselves. And that in no way diminishes my calling/mission to sacrifice for others.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Now we’re getting into the issues of imaginary “magic” used for effect, symbolism, imagination and creativity vs. real world “magick,” based on actual occult lore, personalities, teachings, and facts. They are different things, but that is a book in itself — hey, I wrote that already. LoL.
R. Abanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
And the logo on the back of every product by Johnson & Johnson
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I agree that it is nearly impossible to get community from a worship service - of any size. That is why a lot of churches, particularly emerging churches emphasize various mechanisms for this to take place.
Neil
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
24: Rick, you are aware Toto’s eyes glowed a blood red and that he could levitatate at will, right?
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Don’t forget the Proctor & Gamble man in the moon logo.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
And all the fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel…
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
“When will these guys realize that people are done with… irrelevant teachings…”
I’ve seen this argument for, “relevancy,” battled in ODMs and non-ODMs alike for the past few years. I’m kind of curious. Could anyone please demonstrate a teaching that an ODM has endorsed, which could be classified as, “irrelevant?”
–
CS
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“Could anyone please demonstrate a teaching that an ODM has endorsed, which could be classified as, “irrelevant?””
Miley Cyrus is at the top of a long list.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Phil, maybe there’s greater need and appropriateness for us to minister to one another out in the world. I view the gathering of the saints as an opportunity for transcendence and (keeping with the theme of other comments) SUPERNATURAL realities; and a reminder that this world is only temporary.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Rick:
“Miley Cyrus is at the top of a long list.”
Assuming that Miley Cyrus was being taught about within a church, the next question would be, “Why?”
I would imagine that she could be mentioned in a teaching to highlight things such as idolatry (girls following her zealously), covetousness, and being like the world. All of which were things which the Bible explicitly warns against.
Now, a teaching solely about Miley Cyrus would be absurd, just like any other sermon focused more on a popular fad than the Word of God. But as an example in some larger teaching? I see possibilities there.
–
CS
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Clothing (no pants for women)
Hairstyle
Music
KJV-onlyism
Just to name a few…
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Worship styles
Pulpit shapes
Culture wars
Everything mentioned are teachings, even when given in a larger context. And the Miley Cyrus teaching wasn’t just an aside, she has been given several full posts by a para-church site designed to take the place of male leadership.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Well, it probably discredits the church. It’s at least an indictment on the church.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:33 pm
First of all:
Buffy is awesome. Willow is more awesome.
But like…people don’t become real Wiccans from watching Buffy.
Of course it is. What’s funny is that there’s actually an episode of Buffy that parodies this sort of response. It’s very funny/profound, in that Joss Whedon way.
Exactly. I became a witch because of Endora, thank you.
Well, and also, Wicca focuses on embracing/honoring the earth, and there is something that inherently makes sense about that. It’s even biblical, it’s just couched differently.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:39 pm
“It’s even biblical, it’s just couched differently.”
Evan - sometimes your comments are just one sentence too many.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Paul C,
you say it justifies nothing nor discredits the church if people desire to stay home on Sunday with the NFL and friends…
To which I say:
You’re right and you’re wrong.
In the big picture it may not justify anything, but it does discredit the church.
The sad reality is that Christians even bail on church for Superbowls and the Oscars and the like. The sad reality is that the Church has failed miserably in communicating the deep and lasting value, not only of God and the comprehensive work of Jesus Christ, but of the Church.
Hate to say it, but it’s too easy to just blame things on peoples sinful inclinations and rebellion to inoculate the Church from deserved criticism.
It sucks, but the sad fact is that people’s hearts beat fast for the strains of the national anthem more than the word of God and they will jump up and down and look like fools for a touchdown, but Jesus can’t draw…
THAT reality must be grappled with by the Church–the answer isn’t mere entertainment–but it must be faced nevertheless.
Just my nickel…
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
what is irrelevant?
specifically, the ODM yammering about…
couches as seating for worship
generally, anything they think matters.
just kidding.
there is the rare “nickel in the spitoon”.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
“It sucks, but the sad fact is that people’s hearts beat fast for the strains of the national anthem more than the word of God”
OK, nc, I will not take the bait…for now.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
> people don’t become real Wiccans from watching Buffy.
RA: How did you poll all new Wiccans who have ever watched Buffy? That’s quite a feat.
> there’s actually an episode of Buffy that parodies this sort of response.
RA: Actually, sorry to tell you, but Wicca is indeed experience remarkable growth, especially among teenage girls:
“There’s no denying that the teenage witches on the TV have made witchcraft really appealing to whole new generation of girls and teenagers.” - BBC
“Wicca Casts Spell on Teen-Age Girls” - Insight in the News.
“The production of books, magazines, kits, films, TV programmes and Internet sites aimed at teenagers, especially girls, on witchcraft, Wicca and related topics, has been a growth industry of the late 1990s and 2000s. This article examines whether Ezzy’s distinction between ‘traditional witchcraft’, a serious religious path, and ‘white witchcraft’, an aspect of consumerism, can be used to understand the phenomenon of ‘teenage witchcraft’. An analysis of some of the materials available and of interviews with young women who identify as witches attempts to answer the question of whether young people are being exploited by commercial interests, or whether the ‘teen witch’ phenomenon cannot be so easily dismissed.” - Journal of Beliefs and Values
DO YOUR RESEARCH.
> I became a witch because of Endora, thank you.
RA: Not surprising.
> Wicca focuses on embracing/honoring the earth, and there is something that inherently makes sense about that. It’s even biblical, it’s just couched differently.
RA: Well, I suppose biblical if you mean that the Bible teaches no personal god, and that the earth is a living essence interconnected to all of us, who in ourselves are divine, and as divine pesons we can do whatever we want to do as long as it “harm none” (the Wiccan Rede). That Bible? Oh…wait a minute…..
R. Abanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Do wiccans have woman elders?
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Actually, Richard, what I was talking about was reveling in the majesty of nature.
“Behold the lilies of the field,” and whatnot.
Nothing more.
But what I said was that people don’t become real Wiccans from watching Buffy. The article you cite even addresses the idea that it’s mostly consumerist, which it probably is.
To which I say *shrug*. Whatever.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Do wiccans have teaching series’s?
Do wiccans have marriage enhancement services?
Do wiccans elect the High Priest?
Do wiccans have seeker services?
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Break,
It is not this simple. This is important to me because I have a heart for teens. Look, these shows/books pique a curiosity. That’s all I’m saying. And unlike the fairy tales & shows of the past — Cinderella, Bewitched, etc — today’s new breed of fantasy/fiction isn’t filled so much with fantasy/fiction as it is with real world occult and/or pagan/Wicca references, spells, teachings, philosophies, ideas, personalities, etc. etc. etc.
So, a child can now, more easily than ever, continue their entertainment by simply going to the nearest bookstore or library and looking up EXACTLY what they’ve been watching — then, find out more about such things and they’re on their merry way.
The line between fantasy magic and real world magick has been thinned and blurred. The wall between consumerism and spiritualism is no longer so thick. Just something to think about. We can’t be knee-jerk, of course. But we can’t be overly flip and blah about it either.
RAbanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Rick, you’re adding nothing to this thread.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Sandman,
That’s the one I meant when I wrote “Johnson & Johnson.”
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Usually it’s an issue of methodology, not “a teaching” as in content. Emerging types, and others who just want to be more contemporary talk in terms of methodological relevancy… sometimes it is good, sometimes it is not.
ODM’s tend to see new methods as succumbing to culture. This is a rather broad brushing, but the point is methodology more often then content.
Neil
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
“Rick, you’re adding nothing to this thread.”
Read my first comment. The rest reflect my opinion that the subject of wiccans is way overblown. If they are the fastest growing religion I wonder why I have only seen them through rare bumper stickers?
They are a good object of sensationalism, and they can be used to scare people with inflated figures, but there are scores of other people groups who are more numerous. Right?
I just don’t buy into the wiccans/devil worshipers/ occultists are coming. The witch song by Carmen has passed.
Harry Potter is a straw man which scares people, increases church membership, and brings pocketbooks to defeat the devil. I haven’t read it because I don’t enjoy fiction not because it is demonic.
But that’s just me.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
**Well, I became a Christian from watching “He Man and the Masters of the Universe.” Man-at-Arms was tough. Teela was hot.
I became a preacher from watching Battle of the Planets.
Ooh, and don’t forget the inherent dangers of Dungeons and Dragons which warped the minds of millions of adolescent pre-pubescent teens and adults and sunk them deep into the Labrea Tar Pits. (Whatever that means; I’m trying to catch-all.)
Yes, same story. Different generation. Same complaints.
**Sarcasm offering free of charge**
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I find it funny that the anti-harry potter crowd is silent about the “christian” movie with a white witch that manipulates people with her evil powers. The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with as much witchcraft as any Buffy movie.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
PS–I am more concerned about people who read “Left Behind” than I am about people who read “Harry Potter.”
At least Harry Potter is good fiction, has a plot, and understands theology.
Can’t say anything close that about Left Behind.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Nathan,
Or that strange book called Pilgrim’s Progress where the gospel is simply obliterated by allegory.
jerry
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:35 pm
“I am more concerned about people who read “Left Behind” than I am about people who read “Harry Potter.” ”
OK, Jerry, step outside!
You are a eschatological ODM!
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Nathan: I find it funny that the anti-harry potter crowd is silent about the “christian” movie with a white witch that manipulates people with her evil powers. The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with as much witchcraft as any Buffy movie.
RA: Been there, done that. Talked about it constantly. We are dealing with two different issues.
And as for “The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with as much witchcraft as any Buffy movie” — bro, seriously, they aren’t. You know I am not a kooky, religious, hyper-knee-jerk guy.
I’ve dealt extensively with the whole HP thing and have done a lot of research on it. As well as on Tolkien and Lewis — and yeah, I;’ve watched probably every episode of Buffy (and The X-Files, tbh). Soooooo, I can say from some degree of study that they are different things entirely. I am NOT saying:
- watching Buffy will make you a witch (LoL).
- Wiccans = Satanism (again, LoL).
- HP books should be banned/burned
- no one should read HP
- there is no interesting observations to be seen and discussed shows like Buffy (don’t let me forget to tune into Fringe tonight)
I think at this point we’re probably running into miscommunication due to the forum. We probably see pretty close to eye-to-eye, if not exactly, then very close.
RAbanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I say this to make a point, but I do find it very funny that Christians are so alarmed by the prospect of a teen hearing about another religious tradition on television and being intrigued, when television and radio are teeming with on-the-sleeve appeals to proselytize people into theirparticular supernatural belief system.
Not saying that either is inherently bad, but there is an unspoken hypocrisy at play here.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:48 pm
And if it’s the bumper sticker I’m thinking of…
“Sorry I missed church, I was practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian.”
…it’s meant as a direct burn toward fundamentalist Christians.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I do not question people’s sincerity or research, however you could go down the list.
Harvey - an invisible rabbit guide
It’s a Wonderful Life - angel worship
A Christmas Carol - ghosts and a works gospel
I mean come on, it just a cultural phenomenon, not some devious plan concocted in the depths of hell. One year before I got saved three things impacted me, all of which are not on the approved list:
The Exorcist
Godspell
Jesus Christ Superstar
The nScripture declares the Lord catches the fowler (devil) in his own snare. The devil, only has the power we tend to give him. Jesus said ALL power was given to Him, that is what we should be constantly focusing on, not fairy tales.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Evan - the bumper sticker says wiccan and usually the car has peace symbols etc. and is driven by a middle aged woman.
Unspoken hypocrisy - I believe the unspoken part is part of the definition?
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Break: there is an unspoken hypocrisy at play here.
RA: I don’t think it’s hypocrisy, which is when someone condemns someone else for something they themselves do.
For instance, I certainly don’t condemn Wiccans for seeking to get converts by using whatever means are available — e.g., using appealing advertisements that compare their REAL occult books to HP so kids who love Harry Potter will be interested in their stuff. I mean, that’s predictable.
All people who hold to a certain belief system want to reach out to the next generation. But Christian parents are disturbed by that, just as Wiccan parents really don’t want their kids being unduly influenced by Christian thought, literature, advertising, or witnessing friends at school.
Of course, it would indeed be hypocritical for Christian parents to proselytize while condemning Wiccans/Pagans for seeking converts. But simply voicing concerns about their children and other children being exposed to such stuff is not hypocrisy, imho. It’s….well…concern.
RA
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 pm
I think maybe part of it is the (sort of hilarious) torch-wielding mob-mentality with which some Christians go about it. I mean, really much of the rest of the country thinks of the Christian right as always freaking out about something unimportant…Harry Potter…a Katy Perry song…it’s kind of like, “okay, get a grip.”
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 pm
In 1967 I kissed a girl and I liked it.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:40 pm
And I guess I’m particularly bothered by that torch-wielding mob mentality when it comes to something like Wicca, since we really don’t have a very clean history when it comes to, well, “branding people as witches,” and it lasts to this day. There are three men in jail in Arkansas, one on death row, who most likely didn’t kill the boys they were convicted of killing, because the prosecutor was a holy rolling redneck who decided to seize on the fact that the boys were “into the occult,” which, by most accounts, consisted of wearing a lot of black, listening to Marilyn Manson, and drawing anarchy symbols on their Trapper Keepers.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I did that in the 90’s.
Not my cup of tea.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
For the record, music is a much greater medium for evil influence than are fictional television and books.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
I’m still wondering why SoL posted an article that 1) didn’t attack anyone and 2) went so far as to promote community, relevance, and entering meaningful dialog with Wiccans…
Neil
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Ghost writer.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
break, yeah i agree with all of that. i cringed when i saw people burning hp books, or protesting books at libraries, and in once instance holding up some really mean signs outside a wicca shop that was opening. TERRIBLE! and all that has nothing to do with God, Jesus, the Bible, or standing for truth, imho. it’s like the people who say hateful things outside mormon temples and hold up pairs of LDS holy undergarments on stickes and wave them around to mock them. really sad and embarrassing. but it sure makes for great TV coverage.
RAbanes
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I’m sorry Neil, as soon as I wrote “ghost writer” I felt drawn to the occult.
Sorry…
September 24th, 2008 at 4:47 am
Hi all,
I think it is a bit naive to think that “it is highly unlikely that someone watched Buffy and decided to become a wiccan priest.”
Sshows like that, although albeit couched in fantasy, still “sows seeds” of witchcraft in the minds of young ones. I learnt a lot of superstition from watching movies of that genre, when young.
Another example is heavy metal. I was a big fan of GNR, Metallica, Megadeth, Skid Row, etc… black T-shirts, long hair, concerts. Such music ended up affecting my whole character and personality - e.g. my short-temper.
Thankfully, the Lord prevented me from going further.
September 24th, 2008 at 8:34 am
One other thing I didn’t mention yesterday is this. I was thinking about this, and to me this seems to me like another instance of where by the time Christians recognize a trend, it’s come and gone. Buffy was canned in 2003 and Charmed was canned in 2006, and by the end of their lives they weren’t nearly as popular as they had been.
So the teen girls that watched these shows then are probably in their 20’s now. There might be some residual popularity because of syndication, but it’s hard to say how much. Basically, as typical, it’s an over-reaction that’s late as well. It’s like the screeds against rock that I mentioned before. They were busy railing against Poison and other hair metal bands while Nirvana and Pearl Jam were the bands who were actually selling albums.
September 24th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Attacking the culture is not only articulating the obvious, it is also a doomed attempt to patch a sieve.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I don’t dispute this at all. All I am saying is that not much has changed at all. The most anointed preacher of all time - Jesus Himself - faced the same issue.
Fish and bread? All hands on board. Discipleship? Time to go.
I will be the first to say that the church is fast-asleep (hence the name of my site: The Midnight Cry.com:)) and pretty much luke warm (ineffective), but we are also living in a day where personal idolatry is at an all-time high, at least here in North America.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:30 am
“balance,” “balance,” “balance” — really a cool word to embrace and live by….
R. Abanes
September 24th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Oh, I don’t know about that. How do you say it’s at an all-time high? There’s always been idolatry. In the OT, pagans sacrificed their children to false gods. In the NT, Caesars declared themselves Gods. And actually the divine right of the monarchy was something that persisted well into the modern era.
People are basically the same now as they’ve always been. They’ll worship someone or something. Sometimes it’s themselves or their possession. There will always be those who refuse to bow to those and worship the one true God, though.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I just had some electrical work done on my house and the guy’s name, I’m not making this up, is…HARRY POTTER! (Do you think my house will burn down?!)
He said he can’t even use a credit card any more because people don’t believe it’s his real name. He carried around several pieces of ID for a while, but finally gave up and just pays cash for everything now. Proof once again that Harry Potter is evil.
8^)>
September 24th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Well, your electric bill should go down, cause now your house should run on magic!
September 24th, 2008 at 11:06 am
I say this because the average person, here in North America, has more resources at his/her disposal than throughout any time in history. As a result, as riches increase, so do options for the average person.
Couple this with the media onslaught and you get a much more decadent lifestyle per capita than throughout anytime in history.
This is just simple human nature, kind of like the supply-and-demand in economics. That’s why I use the term “personal idolatry” as opposed to physical idolatry (ie: bowing down).
September 24th, 2008 at 11:07 am
My electrician’s name is Antwon LeVay.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:33 am
From time to time the church of Jesus Christ has succombed to a focus on evil and the occult. The preponderance of the New Testament is focused on Christ, redemption, and righteousness. The nail biting about all these streams of evil reveals an unhealthy apprehension about evil, not to mention giving the devil much more credit than is warranted.
A pentagram drawn on a sidewalk send the church into convulsions. All these preoccupations with witchcraft and magic and occultism divert our attention from Christ. The authentic devil worshipers are miniscule, even when compared to the Harry Potter and the entourage of pretenders.
Even people like KISS are more businessmen than they are devil worshipers. And the answer to all of it is always the same - preaching and living the gospel. I could walk into a coven complete with candles and incense and pentagrams and worship Jesus. They should be nwary of Christ, not the reverse. Good overcomes evil, love overcomes hate, truth overcomes error, faith overcomes doubt, and Jesus overcomes everything.
Be simple concerning that which is evil and wise concerning that which is good.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Rick,
And it’s not even October yet. Doesn’t Halloween usually draw all of the dire warnings out of the woodwork.
September 24th, 2008 at 11:54 am
I dressed my kids as Bible characters and went trick or treating. I never once caught them worshiping the devil. Halloween is a good excuse for candy resupply!
September 24th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
This kind of reminds me of all the moo-ing about Marilyn Manson, with people going so far as to blame him for Columbine.
That was sick.
Marilyn Manson is an artist. (A quite interesting one at that.) “Marilyn Manson” is a character.
I dunno. All this smacks of, as I said before, the need to get a grip.
September 24th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Oh, and don’t even get me started about the freak-outs people have about Halloween. Absolutely insane. I live in one of the few neighborhoods left in the country where Halloween is the biggest event, traffic-wise, of the year. EVERYONE comes to this neighborhood for trick-or-treating, the whole neighborhood’s out, you can’t even drive through here that night, and it’s just a bunch of kids having the time of their life. My parents tell me this is how it used to be everywhere.
September 24th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Does all of this (Halloween, HP, Witchcraft) make anyone else feel like we’ve entered an internet version of the village?
There’s really scary stuff out there so let’s invent more scary stuff to keep everyone inside the village.
Excuse my while I watch re-runs of Bewitched, eat my candy corn, and try to unwrap this roll of pennies that ol’ misses McGillicutty taped together.
September 24th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
“I dressed my kids as Bible characters and went trick or treating.” Did any of them ever dress up as the Witch of Endor?
September 24th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Our family buys candy, then we turn OFF the porch light so no one will come to our house…then we eat all the candy ourselves.
We don’t like people…in general–halloween or not.
September 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Last Halloween I went as Chris Lyons but it frightened all the children.
September 24th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Reading all the comments, this kept running through my head:
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.
Alfred E. Newman said it best, What, Me worry?
I have enough to worry about without creating to more to worry about. There’s nothing I can do to change any of this, apart from dealing with one person at a time as they come to me, one on one.
September 24th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I find the whole argument over cause and effect interesting. I suppose the reality falls somewhere in between those who see a direct link and those who see none… just like the reality falls between Wiccan being a fast growing religion or counter-culture fad.
Neil
September 24th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Scotty - demonic sensationalism sells. Harry Potter was maybe the single most hyped up straw man in my lifetime. When Mike Warnke was exposed as exagerating the devil worship scare lost its teeth and commercial market.
I remember in the Baptist church I attended a couple of years ago when the pastor addressed the Sunday morning crowd with a solemn air of importance. He said, “You all know I do not shy away from controversial issues and this morning I will boldly take a stand!”
I thought he would address divorce, or homosexuality, or apostacy, or even greed and hedonism in the church. No, he spent the entire morning on Harry Potter to the “amens” of those who agreed. He had succommed to the pressure of some of the church members who saw an easy target - Harry Potter.
This church was like many evangelical churches, divorce was rampant, much spiritual lethargy, greed and avarice, and in 2 months after this “controversial” message this pastor resigned because of adultery. But at least he took a stand againt the swath of destruction Harry Potter has caused inside and outside the church.
And like many of the ODMs, the controversial issues they “tackle” are never about their own sin and shortcomings, it’s always about some easy target that requires nothing more than talk on their part. I often believe the devil’s disguise looks more like God than he does like himself.
September 24th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Weren’t those the famous last words of the seven sons of Sceva?
Seriously - there are problems more serious and demonic intrusions more destructive than HP but it doesn’t mean the issue ought to be ignored outright. A church should deal with greed and materialism, but that doesn’t mean it cannot deal with more “harmless” issues like HP. When this becomes the ONLY issue (because it’s an easy target) then there’s a problem.
For the record, my church never dealt with HP because it’s not something that was viewed as a threat - there’s much bigger fish to fry. My point is that neither do I advocate not addressing it if it might be an issue.
September 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Paul - the sons of Sceva are not decribed as believers, they are Jews that were exorcists. Perhaps Chris could shed some light on them.
September 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Why can’t we just talk about some stuff without labeling it a “threat,” an “evil,” or a “danger.” I mean, whatever happened to just talking. And actually listening to what a person says about something, rather than hearing a few words, and re-interpreting them to mean something else — I see that all the time in chats, blogs, and message boards.
For example, a person such as myself just mention a HINT of caution about HP with regards to SOME kids who MIGHT be overly curious about SOME aspects of it, which could lead to SOME problems — and instantly people read that kind of view as suggesting HP books should be burned and censored because if a kid even touches them, then they will become possessed. Odd. The same goes for many issues.
I’m just about ready to not say anything to anyone unless we are sitting down at a cafe and actually talking (might be a good idea for an article here).
RAbanes
September 24th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
“I’m just about ready to not say anything to anyone unless we are sitting down at a cafe and actually talking ”
If you are paying! That is the beauty/problem with comment threads, everyone has their own perspective. We must learn to participate with an emotional buffer zone. I have found a way to disregard those who disagree with
the truthme.September 24th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Rick - I was just kidding.
September 24th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I know, Paul. My point was in ALL circumstances Jesus is Lord! Even in the midst of devil worshipers!! God has not given us the spirit of fear.
The devil is on death row and Jesus is saddling up!
September 24th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
And on the heels of the wiccan scare, SoL now presents Islam as the enemy.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/uncategorized/islam-the-religion-of-pieces/
Demeaning another religion (religion of pieces), using Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as representative of the entire religion, prophecying that Islam will morality to take over America, and keeping a body count to throw at Muslims, is more evidence that many are clueless to what the gospel actually is.
The hatred for sinners juxtaposed against the love of America is unchristian. Most muslims in Iran and other Islamic countries do not like Ahmadinejad. This is not a war against Islam - THIS IS THE CALL OF THE GOSPEL TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST TO THE UTTERMOST PARTS OF THE WORLD!
Chrsitianity has changed, and not just in the liberal wing.
September 24th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
You are correct.
Even putting aside the fact that Iran is Shi’a and the majority of the Muslim world is Sunni.
Iranians tolerate Mahmoud.