Friends,
This will be the first in a series of posts here at CRN.info designed with one purpose in mind: to learn to listen to others. I realize that the nature of this post is fraught with all sorts of dangers, so I will offer a few ‘rules’ before I begin. First, we (whoever contributes to the series) will be using the music, poetry, art, and more from the so-called secular world. I have discussed this with the other writers here and we agree that this can be perceived the wrong way and we are prepared for such an eventualities and criticisms that may come along with such a series of posts. We want to take a chance here that perhaps there is someone in the blog world who may be crying out the same things. We want, in part, to be a voice in the wilderness.
Second, the purpose of this conversation is NOT, under any circumstances, to discuss the salvation one way or another of the author of the work in question. The work we discuss is necessarily ’secular’ and many times the authors of the work have made decisive decisions against Christ, although not entirely closing the proverbial door. The purpose here, however, is to listen to what they are saying and to discuss what they are saying. This means you will have to read the lyrics (or stare at the art or whatever) and watch the video to get the full effect of their words.
Third, a serious aspect of this series of posts is to, hopefully, develop some evangelistic ’strategies.’ I know it’s not nearly that simple, and perhaps it is a bit naive to assume that simply by listening we can learn about how to approach the lost. But the series was prompted by a post at imonk where the monkish one asked:
Is there really a God-shaped void as Augustine described? What if we listened to what atheists said about themselves? Could we still evangelize, or must they buy our assumptions first?
This is a serious series of posts. I am not being smart, sarcastic, cliche, biased, trivial or anything else like that. I want to listen–to the artist, to you, to those who might be unbelievers who visit. What are they saying about their reasons for rejecting Christ? How can we, by listening, pray properly, witness compassionately and graciously, and work in cooperation with the Holy Spirit? We are not necessarily endorsing these lyrics, or these points of view. We are listening. I read just yesterday a blog, in the comments section the author wrote: “Maybe you could be more equipped to help your friends if you stopped sympathizing with them and started giving them God’s truth”; as if one is in complete opposition to the other! Isn’t God’s truth the very essence of compassion? But if we never come along side those who suffer, how will they ever know there is hope? Will they listen to me expound Romans 1 if they have not first seen me demonstrate John 13? Will they care if I love God if I haven’t first demonstrated that I love them?
Fourth, while the monk uses the word ‘atheists’ to describe a general group of people, I am not. As was pointed out to me in preliminary conversations, not all those who are not-Christians happen to be hard-core Richard Dawkins type atheists. Many actually believe in God and say as much through their art. What I am hoping we can do is listen to their cry–and a cry it is.
Here’s how the posts will be set up: 1. A video or art selection will be posted. 2. Lyrics will follow. 3. A few brief questions or observations or history will follow to spur on conversation. 4. Conversation. Feel free to comment on the lyrics or help interpret the piece in question. Then let’s discuss what is happening. The only thing we ask is that you please stay on topic.
One of the best things, relatively speaking, to happen in recent years was the so-called ‘grunge’ movement that had its origins in Seattle, Washington with bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains. The first installment of this series of posts features Alice in Chains and a song titled “Down in a Hole.” Here’s how Layne Staley’s life ended: ”After a decade battling drug addiction, Layne Staley was found dead in his condominium on April 19, 2002. An autopsy revealed Staley died from a mixture of heroin and cocaine 14 days previously. In his last interview, which was given months before his death, Staley admitted, “I know I’m near death, I did crack and heroin for years. I never wanted to end my life this way.”
From MTV’s Unplugged series, this version of the song features Layne and Jerry Cantrell (guitar) singing the song. The latter, which has since, evidently, become unavailable at youtube (you may still be able to view it at youtube) is the MTV version of the song. At the end of the MTV version (not shown) you can see the following words flash across the screen: “This facility Cannot Accept Dirt.” Remember that.
Bury me softly in this womb
I give this part of me for you
Sand rains down and here I sit
Holding rare flowers
In a tomb…in bloom
Down in a hole and I don’t know if I can be saved
See my heart I decorate it like a grave
You don’t understand who they
Thought I was supposed to be
Look at me now a man
Who wont let himself be
Down in a hole, feelin’ so small
Down in a hole, losin’ my soul
I’d like to fly,
But my wings have been so denied
Down in a hole and they’ve put all
The stones in their place
I’ve eaten the sun so my tongue
Has been burned of the taste
I have been guilty
Of kicking myself in the teeth
I will speak no more
Of my feelings beneath
Down in a hole, feelin’ so small
Down in a hole, losin’ my soul
I’d like to fly but my
Wings have been so denied
Bury me softly in this womb
Oh I want to be inside of you
I give this part of me for you
Oh I want to be inside of you
Sand rains down and here I sit
Holding rare flowers (oh I want to be inside of you)
In a tomb…in bloom
Oh I want to be inside…
Down in a hole, feelin’ so small
Down in a hole, losin’ my soul
Down in a hole, feelin’ so small
Down in a hole, outta control
Id like to fly but my
Wings have been so denied
____________________
I’ve had this on the burner for a while. I’ve been trying to find a way to post it, an appropriate time, during an appropriate breath. Let me tell you briefly, what it was that prompted me to think that now is the right time. I received an email from my mom last night. This past week another of my school-mates from my hometown committed suicide. That is two in the last two weeks, 3 in the last six months. 3 men, two still in their thirties, one just barely in his forties. A couple with children. All three someone’s son. All three men made in God’s image, men for whom Christ died, men who are now gone without any hope of recovery in this world.
My mom and dad also visited last weekend. We spent some time talking about my home congregation. Turns out that for quite some time now the church has been bleeding members. You know why? Well, it seems there is an ongoing feud between one ’side’ of the aisle that is in favor of women serving in traditionally male roles (deacons, servers, etc.; please do not bring up the role of women in the church as that is not what this post is about) and the other ’side’ that is vehemently opposed to it. Many of those who are opposed to this happening have simply, quietly left the church; likely not to return. Those in favor continue to press their point; the church is dying.
Meanwhile, out in the real world, men who are my age, men I grew up with, are killing themselves–the most recent, Scott, shot himself. Meanwhile, there are men (and I’m sure many women too) who hum along with Layne Staley: “Down in a hole…feeling so small…down in a hole…losing my soul…” because they have no other thoughts inside of them. They are people, men and women and children who truly believe they cannot be saved; that there is simply no hope. Hopelessly sad.
I have to be honest, I am sick of this. I am sick of people having no hope, not hearing or seeing compassion, feeling and believing themselves to be so unloved that their only recourse is death. Are we willing to listen to what the lost are saying? Are we willing to come alongside and suffer with them? Are we willing to be Christ incarnate to them? Or are we so thrilled with our own salvation that we have neglected the weightier things of the law?
How long do you think the church will continue to fight and argue and destroy itself while people continue to take their own lives? Are we willing to listen? Are we hearing what their are saying? I invite you into this conversation: How can we help men, women, children, who are feeling this exact same way, the way Staley sang of? Maybe the church can again become a place where trash is accepted.
3 of my friends are now dead. They are gone. Lost. 3.
jerry
PS–I realize I’m running some risk posting such thoughts, but please bear in mind that I’m asking for us to simply listen. Future posts will likely be shorter because they won’t need all the introductory rules and explanations.
67 Comments(+Add)
Wow Jerry, this really hits home. I will be praying for those 3 men’s families. i have been having these thoughts all week long: are we the church Jesus had in mind when he told Peter “on this rock I will build my church”? We spend so much time telling the world what is wrong with them and how they should live but so little time listening and just serving expecting nothing in return. May God save the church and world from Christians.
Jerry,
Thank you for being vulnerable.
I can’t imagine what you’re feeling…not because I haven’t lost people in a similar way, but simply because this experience is yours. I want to honor that and acknowledge that. I think that’s important.
I hear what Eugene is saying at the end of his comment.
One of my friends here in grad school has decided to go on from here to do an MSW. He’s got a great pastoral presence, skilled at people caring and it would be a great fit for him after his theological education is finished.
I told him so and said that he has such great pastoral gifts I’d hate to see him waste them on a church.
This is just sad and sobering all the way around.
Peace to you, Jerry.
The entire world cries out in hopelessness. It isn’t just the drug/rock crowd, it is also the successful businessman who masks his hopelessness. It reminds me of this song by Ray Stevens:
But hey, let’s poke fun at them and itemize their sins and turn a deaf ear to their plight. Forget about their need, let’s focus on their sin. Isn’t this what Jesus did at Calvary? And when they commit suicide we can always say with Scrooge that they just “decreased the surplus population”.
You are right, Jerry, we have constructed a heartless and self righteous brand of Christianity that touts grace but offers none.
I think this song is terribly sad and full of despair. It reminds me of when Johnny Cash sang Hurt by Nine Inch Nails. It was right at the end of his life and the sense of despair was almost palpable. After all the gospel that Cash had sung in his life, you would think that some of God’s grace would have stuck with him, but that song seemed to say otherwise. (I hope that is just my perception…)
I am not sure what caused your friends to commit suicide, maybe despair, maybe financial insecurity, maybe just being tired of living and ready to go see Jesus, I don’t know, but I hear your concerns about the church. Sometimes I think we just need to get out there and talk to people about Jesus, and then just show our love for them.
And I am not talking about using a bull horn, carrying a sign or wearing a t-shirt. I am talking about talking to the people you work with, the waiter or waitress who serves you when you eat out, etc. And not necessarily the pretty lady who works in accounting, but also the weird guy who mumbles about swingline staplers. They all just need to see the love Jesus has for them. If they come to church, that’s nice, but really it’s just about relationships and reflecting God’s love.
Okay, now I will go back to being quiet.
-Blessing,
Mike
Thks for a great post…As a teen i was pretty heavy into drink (still am i’m afraid) an mildy into drugs…My best friend at 12-19 ish was such a cool dude,he was so funny i would cry with laughter, but so wild with drink, fathered two kids by the time he was 16. It was with him i first got drunk at 14 i still remember him taking me to my parents home, and bowing to my mum “ur son returned as promised” and my mum going nuts lol..
We lost contact around 21, i heard drink had got the better of him,he would turn up at peoples home he hardly knew (even friends of friends of my parents) saying he knew so and so, and could they help with cash for baby food or nappies,then spend it on drink..
Last thing i heard he was getting better, gettin back on track…Saw my Mum a while back, and she told me he had died,he was 39-40, it was semi related to the toll that drink had taken…
None of my crowd knew, no1 went to the funeral,i heard it was empty…
RIP Paul i should of tried to help more,i didnt once talk to him about Christ,i was to busy drinking with him and being a Christian on a Sunday
“RIP Paul i should of tried to help more,i didnt once talk to him about Christ,i was to busy drinking with him and being a Christian on a Sunday”
Wow, thanks Andy…
Andy,
When my first friend committed suicide, Jason was his name, the first thing I could think of was exactly what you said: I had never said a single word to him about Jesus. I had spent a lot of time, as a boy, envying him for his wealth and popularity and good looks and athleticism…I too remained silent in my disdain and envy.
When I heard he had killed himself, I was aghast and ashamed. I guess we always think that perhaps we can get around to it later or that perhaps they are the proverbial swine before whom we should not cast our pearls. It’s sad because I know so many more in my hometown who are just like these guys.
But it is important that the church figure out what women should and should not do in the worship!
Thanks for all of your transparent and honest replies. I hope for more.
jerry
First of all, Jerry, deep condolences. I’ve been through that before, and there’s really no way to explain what it feels like when somebody you know/love takes his/her own life…there’s a whole different set of emotions, in addition to the regular grieving emotions.
As to the who and why about it, I would be careful interpreting it through the lens of a God-shaped void, though. I say this simply because the two people I’ve known who committed suicide, unexpectedly and almost entirely without explanation, were deeply devout Christians. My brother had a friend from high school take his own life earlier in the summer, and we don’t quite know the full reasons/circumstances for that one, but he, too, was raised in the church. My understanding is that suicide is one of those things that truly doesn’t discriminate. I’ve known people who were, by all appearances, happy as clams on the outside and who were dying inside, and I’ve known them in every walk of life I’ve been through. I just don’t know. From what I understand, to cross the threshhold from depression, angst, hopelessness, or whatever else into suicidal territory is a step that none of us can really understand, if we haven’t been there.
I think maybe the lesson is a more ecumenical and universal one — that we all need to do a better job of listening to those closest to us, not just for what they say, but for what they don’t say. As a person who has struggled with depression my entire life (we’re “one of those families” where it’s an inherited trait), I know firsthand that even within our own families, we can be prone to keeping our pains, our frustrations, our sadness, our hopelessness in…and really, even in “normal” people for whom depression isn’t a struggle, these are normal human emotions…but we can end up turning the switch off from those closest to us, going both ways. Because honestly, some people just don’t wear it on their sleeve. So, I guess, like I said, that maybe the best lesson is just to do everything in our power to “tune in” to others. If there’s a spiritual capacity to that and it helps people, then great.
Now…
Mike: Johnny Cash did a lot of really cool offbeat covers toward the end of his life. I wouldn’t put too much stock in taking that as a statement of how Johnny Cash was feeling, in the same way I wouldn’t take his earlier Gospel as a message of his faith. As my mom used to tell me, “Barbra Streisand did a Christmas album, for goodness sakes!” Similarly, I once read a really prudish woman remarking on Celine Dion’s cover of Cyndi Lauper’s “I Drove All Night,” complaining that she thought it inappropriate for Celine to be singing about her sex life. I was like, “Um, it was a cover song.”
That being said, as a songwriter/composer myself, I also wouldn’t necessarily always take artists’ lyrics as a complete snapshot of the artist’s feelings. Some artists write horribly depressing music as a way to deal with their own pain, yes, but for some, that’s actually an outlet. As in, that’s how they deal with their daily struggles. On the other hand, artists aren’t always the main characters in their songs. I’ve written songs before that, if you thought I was the main character, you might be confused. I’m always in there somewhere, as it is with most serious songwriters. So I dunno…
I’ve never been much of an Alice in Chains fan, but I love Nirvana, and i luuuuuuurve Nine Inch Nails, and Trent Reznor is pretty raw. He’s also a genius. I think he probably went through some really hard times, but nowadays he seems to be in his element, and he’s still really raw, but that’s how he works as an artist. And let me tell you, records like his “Pretty Hate Machine” serve a purpose in this world. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve needed to vent, escape, whatever, and thrown that record in and it just did the trick.
My favorite artist of all time, who is not grunge, but started out at the same time, is Tori Amos, and much of her stuff is raw, raw, raw, though, by all accounts, she’s a pretty level-headed girl these days. Her music is still deep and tackles heavy, sensitive subjects, but that’s her being an artist. She made a comment back in the early days that was misinterpreted by some, but she said “these days we package our pain and sell it,” which is kind of true, especially about that time in music.
In a way, though, I think there’s something to be said for that. Just putting it out there, being honest, and saying, through whatever medium, this is who I am, I’m vulnerable, so are you, so’s everybody, and none of us like to admit it, but you know, that’s how it is.
I dunno. Those are my thoughts…
I like some of Tori Amos’s music as well. I am a singer/songwriter and sometimes keyboard player. It is easy to hear desperation when it comes through drugs and depression, but our ears must hear it also when it comes through the disguise of success and popularity (Spears, Cyrus, Perry, strippers, and many others).
If we as Christians only extend grace to some, we are the greatest of all hypocrites for we have substitured the word grace for our own self righteous prostitution.
And when it comes through the guise of people who are doing everything that’s expected of them, going through the motions of living a “good life,” doing for others, and neglecting themselves. I didn’t know until a close friend’s mother, a pastor’s wife, suddenly committed suicide, that pastors’ wives are often some of the most depressed people on earth, because they spend so much of their time draining their energies on others that sometimes they neglect themselves. She was looking out for everyone but herself all the way up to the end, even planning out the time and place she would kill herself so as to make it as easy as possible for the family.
Like I said, I suspect that people who find themselves in that state of mind are in a place none of us could understand unless we were suicidal ourselves.
By the way, Rick, I liked this juxtaposition in what you said…
“Ya know…Britney Spears…Miley Cyrus…strippers…common whores…”
I don’t know, though, if I would put Miley Cyrus or Katy Perry in those categories, though. They’re dealing with the pitfalls of stardom, but I don’t think they’re necessarily on bad paths.
*shrug*
Amy Winehouse…that’s a girl to be worried about.
The pitfalls of stardom can mask depression and hopelessness. See “Britney Spears” for reference.
The word “whores” is yours, not mine.
Marilyn Monroe might be the template.
Evan – I refer you to this post two years ago.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2006/08/i-will-have-mercy.html
I see a lot of this, and probably don’t see a whole lot more, and for certain *ahem* theological persuasions who feel that the formula for spreading the gospel (just typing that phrase made me cringe) is to be as obtusely offensive as possible and call it “law” are just crushing those who have already been crushed.
Rick, I was messing with you.
“Rick, I was messing with you.”
I am very unstable and very likely to respond with unquenchable violence, mayhem, and disturbing acts of elongated torture.
Or not…
So true…Its got to a very critical point for this young lady now,and i pray she comes through it..
I saw a show about her, which seemed to be pretty sympathetic,friends said that Amy felt her experiance had to match her songwritting..
Also Pete Doherty, her friend ,seems to be in a very bad place to…
It’s like i’m watching a sucide note being written in front of me
Tragic.
Sorry that was a response to Evan about Amy Winehouse
I think Evan, said it and I agree. As a musician/song writer I also was observing in the things I wrote. Most of the musicians I know also write stuff based on observations. I usually steer clear songs the lean to the dark side. I’ve got enough issues of my own!
Because of where I come from on all that I tend to see most lyrics by other folks in that same light. I don’t try to read more in to them than is there.
I was a musician first before I ever wrote a song so, my tendency is to usually ignore most lyrics and listen to the inner workings of the music. Usually in an attempt to mebbe steal somebody’s chops.
Yeah, I was a classical pianist and singer before I discovered I was a songwriter, and I think…my writing evolved. There was a stage where I was your typical teenager ranting on paper on the bed with a guitar, except it was a piano, and it wasn’t on the bed, because, hello, awkward, but once I realized that there was something more there, that I was going down a path of actually becoming a songwriter/composer, I started to pull back and focus more on the craft of becoming a good writer. For me, one of those things was realizing that it’s not all about me, and it’s not all me doing the writing either. Plus, like Tori Amos, Joni Mitchell, Tom Waits, and so many other songwriters, writing for me involves research, following threads and such, so the meanings in my songs have a lot of layers and really, they’re open to interpretation by other people, too. Like I said, I’m in there, somewhere, but I may be the main character, I may be the “you” the singer sings to, I might be a fly on the wall, I might be a fully created character, and when I play it next year, I might have moved to a different place in the song…
All of which is to say that I know that I’ve written from dark places, but there’s a point where the dark place and the song itself separate, and when I play a song I wrote five years ago, whatever dark place inspired the song has long gone, but the song itself is, I think, breathing in a way on its own, evolving.
I wrote this song years ago called “Mary Knows” that, to me, at the time, I thought of as a very straightforward song about a relationship gone wrong, blah blah blah…but it’s weird. The words haven’t changed, but, for me, the meaning of the song is more mythological, spiritual these days. So.
Hrm.
Writers r weird.
Anyone ever hear this song from Petra called “For Annie”?
Rick,
Love that old-school song by Petra. Used to hate it as a kid; as an adult, it’s message is profound.
Evan,
“As to the who and why about it, I would be careful interpreting it through the lens of a God-shaped void, though.”
I think that is precisely the point. I think they are at such a point where they are not even thinking God is a solution. Talking to them about God, it seems, might be a meaningless gesture at that point. But I wonder what happens if we do climb up in the dung heap with them and, for a time, sit and just listen. I think this is imonk’s point.
All,
Is it wrong to ‘ignore the god part’ for a time, face to face, and be their friend (while behind the scenes praying mightily and asking for the support of others the same)? It could end up being that the god part will never happen, but it seems to me that the compassion, the seed planting, the non-judging, agenda-less love could go a long way towards saving their life. If they live, then maybe some day God will make that seed grow.
However, and I think this is key, at the start I honestly believe it has to be about them. I think it has to be agenda-less at the start. That is to say, it cannot be about me carving another notch in my belt as I delight in my powerful ability to save people. Does that make sense?
I think of the woman at the well. Eventually, she came to see Jesus for who he was. All he did was treat her right.
jerry
Absolutely!
Although I was saved not long after I came back from Vietnam it wasn’t until about 9 years ago, when somebody did exactly what you said, Jerry, did I begin to see a dim light at the end of the tunnel of the PTSD stupor I have been in since my return from Vietnam.
“to learn to listen to others.”
Think how many times Jesus asked questions designed to elicit responses from which He could listen to their hearts.
Woman caught in adultery
Who do men say that I am?
Lovest thou Me (Peter)?
What does Moses say?
Where is your faith?
Woman, why are you weeping?
What are you taliking about? (Emmaus Road)
Many times our Lord asked questions so He could listen to their hearts. He didn’t always just go full bore with correction and teaching, but He desired to minister compassion as well as truth that was molded to their specific need.
It is sad about the way the lead singer died. One of his songs has the words, “Jesus Christ, deny your maker” as a part of the chorus. I believe he had some idea of who Jesus is, but he never made the changing of mind.
Back in the day, when I worked with at-risk youth, I used their music and the lyrics to that music to interact with them about how they were feeling. It gave great insight to their soul, and opened doors that allowed the hope of Christ to shine in.
We must never be afraid to engage the culture, we must me a light in the midst of the dark world. This is a dark song, with dark lyrics, but it can be reflective of the heart of many who listen. We can give hope- The author writes
“I don’t know if I can be saved”
…and we can share with the person that they can be saved, if they obey the Gospel!
“my wings have been denied”
all of our wings have been denied- because we have offended God ( I am speaking metaphoricly here- I do not believe we get wings) by our sin. It is our sin that buries us deep in this hole!
I know many families in this community who have been devestated by suicide- one just this last week. We Christians need to stop being sheltered from the world and engage it with the Love of Christ- which includes preaching the Gospel and being the hands and feet of Jesus to a lost and dying world!
PB,
you know…when you post stuff like that it makes me wonder if the things we all end up disagreeing about really don’t matter in light of the bigger picture and the bottom line call to share the “Love of Christ–which includes preaching the Gospel and being the hands and feet of Jesus to a lost and dying world!”
Thanks for your words.
Seriously.
Very true, PB.
We can gain a lot of insight as to where a person is by examining the things they are drawn to, and then working from there to point them in a different direction (change of behavior, way of thinking, etc.). Some people use it as an opportunity to be holier than thou and dump even more condemnation on a person, which doesn’t do anything to help that person.
I’m one of the more conservative voices in a place that pushes the boundaries. My big concern is that old saying, “party with trolls, you’ll wake up a troll.” But I digress.
One song that comes mind on this topic is “Tomorrow Wendy” by Concrete Blonde.
The song is about a girl (someone known to the songwriter Andy Pierboy) who has AIDS and is dealing all the anger and other emotions that comes with watching circumstantially innocent people die.
There is this one part of the song that is really raw, but one of the views people have that we, as believers, have to be ready to deal with, not just offer condemnation and walk away.
I told the priest
Don’t count on any second coming,
God got his *** kicked
The last time He came down here slumming
He had the b*lls to come,
The gall to die and then forgive us.
No, I don’t wonder why:
I wonder what he thought it would get us.
Apologies. I find it hard to read or listen to. But that’s the reality we have to deal with. I wonder if we find these types of lyrics more shocking because they’re set to music and we have access to them, rather than remaining locked away in someone’s head where we don’t have to deal with them.
Go Spartans!
To be fair the next line is “he who tries will be wasted”. He could have written for any of the ODMs out there.
John – thanks for those words. You may be abrasive sometimes, but I admire you passion for the lost.
Friends,
What a day. I went to the church building this morning to prepare for worship. There was a message on the answering machine from a member of the church. She had called last night. The message just said, “I need someone to call, it’s an emergency.”
One of the ladies called and to our horror she reported: Yesterday, her 22-23 year old son was dead by his own hand. Shot himself. This is just devastating. I cannot even begin to understand…
A generation of men are under assault. I cannot help but wonder if we are doing enough. Thanks to all of you who have understood well the point of this post and thread and have shared your very personal stories. God, Abba, we are just devastated right now. God have mercy. Mercy…
jerry
Our prayers, Jerry. Is it not obvious that the world needs hope, not condemnation? I did not need someone to accentuate my darkness, I needed someone to show me the light.
We need to let our light shine whcih of course is Jesus.
May God give you the strength and wisdom to help and comfort that family during this difficult time Jerry.
One of the most challenging passages to me is Phil 2 where Paul tells us to imitate Christ being a servant even to death. Listening to people with the ear of a servant enables one to hear the real need, cry of the heart. So often we, I, listen with preconceived ideas and agendas and so miss the opportunity to minister to people.
First of all, wow, Jerry…
Absolutely horrible. More prayers.
Oh, I adore that song. There’s even a greater theme there. Wendy decided that, with AIDS, and with so many people around her dying such undignified deaths, that she was going to take death into her own hands, to handle things on her own terms.
That’s something that I struggle with, because my healthy body and mind rejects thoughts like that outright, but I can’t even imagine what it might be like to be the person who has AIDS, whose mind is going to be ravaged by Alzheimers’ or brain cancer or something like that, who knows their days are very numbered and can’t fathom the idea of such an undignified death. Remember, that song was written in the late 80’s, at the height of the AIDS epidemic. I just don’t know what that would be like.
If anyone wants to hear that song, I was inspired to put it on my blog.
HEY…
off topic, I know…
but I really like the new submissions format…
Isn’t that cool format, nc? There may be a few duplicate submissions, but it’s worth getting rid of the unnecessary comments.
I agree, way off topic.
sorry, jer…
but this post has been riding for a while and didn’t really think about where else would be a good place for public feedback…
As the tenor of this song is about suicide, depression, feeling low and cut off, and unable to crawl out so to speak, I wonder if any folks here have an opinion, based on what the Bible teaches, about Suicide. This may be especially important to our friend Jerry, who is dealing with it in his church.
Here is the question: Is suicide the unpardonable sin? For many years, I have heard preachers and priests say that it is; that if you commit suicide, you cannot be forgiven. I disagree. I wonder if anybody has seen or heard some solid biblical teaching about suicide.
Evan, I bought Bloodletting for “Joey” but found that song right after it.
I was really taken aback by the lyrics at first because they’re so far removed from my own worldview and could never imagine saying something like that. I think it parallels your reaction to AIDS and Alzheimer’s.
I look at those situations, and what Jerry has been experiencing (prayers with you, Jerry), and can imagine a lot of people hurt and angry asking God in their own way, “Why?”
The fortunate part is that God doesn’t hurl lightning bolts for asking questions, and He’s not afraid of tough questions.
“Is suicide the unpardonable sin?”
No, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Many people committ suicide by the fork, automobile speed, cigarettes, drink, and other ways.
I believe in a general sense that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of Jesus to the devil.
Rick,
I guess I asked it wrong…
The teaching I have read far and wide say that murder is a sin, and you commit self murder, and you cannot repent, so therefore it is not forgivable to commit self-murder.
I know it is not blasphemy of the Spirit. But would a saved person commit self-murder? Would they be so beyond hope that they could kill themselves.
Everyone dies with unrepentant sin, hence God’s grace. A saved person is capable of committing any sin an unsaved person commits. John Calvin was a murderer, so killing someone else is OK but killing yourself damns you?
We cannot compromise God’s truth but we cannot limit God’s grace either. Everyone dies a sinner, either saved or lost.
Well said Rick.
Great, now we are getting somewhere.
Maybe I could add a helpful addendum: If you were a pastor counseling a grieving family who just experienced the tragedy of suicide, how would you go about providing sound, biblical counsel to those grieving people?
In other words, what if they say to you “is my son/daughter damned because they did this?”
I really think this discussion could help we Pastors. I think Rick is on the right track.
We are all born into sin. Salvation is by grace alone by faith alone through Christ alone. Repentance is granted to those who trust Christ for salvation. Christ’s blood covers all sins; past, present, and future. If a person has trusted Christ for their salvation, and in their life was fruit that was evidence of repentance, then even suicide is not enough to remove them from the grace of God.
Something like that?
PB, that’s hard to answer and still be sensitive to the subject matter.
I think a person could commit a suicidal act (think of those people in the twin towers who jumped, or fell trying to climb down) under extraordinary circumstances. They were given a death sentence by someone else no matter which way they died.
Or if a person picked some slow deliberate act of suicide (poison, OD, open some veins, or acting under the influence of some drug), but then decide it was wrong and repent and ask for forgiveness. They may well be forgiven, but they still have the consequences of their actions to deal with.
47 was in answer to PB’s 43. Sorry for any confusion.
It is somewhat easy to debate this philosophically from a distance. One thing is certain: life will be unbearable. That is exactly why we need God. When I was living in Africa, I remember the motto of the local elementary school – “On earth we struggle.”
I have met a fair few whose circumstances seem completely undeserved and difficult to understand, much less explain away, but is often these people who rise – through faith – to a closer walk with God. Never were we promised smooth sailing, but rather that Christ would help us through life’s storms.
There is a lot of nice sentiment in an argument like that, but suicide (in 99% of cases, not including the 9/11 example above) denotes despair and a loss of hope (faith). Just because someone received Christ at some point in their life does not automatically qualify them for eternal life. Once you receive Christ, isn’t there a life to be lived in obedience to Him. Or, as Christ put, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say?”
I can’t see how you can lose all hope and still claim you are trusting God for salvation??? Again, for every person who commits suicide, you will find a dozen more, in worse circumstance, who didn’t.
Jerry – sorry for your loss over this weekend. That is very tragic and heartbreaking. May the Lord be with you and the family through their suffering.
A saved person can be dragged down by such depression that they commit suicide. My counsel to such families is to trust God’s grace, and I never get into a theological discussion with them.
I cannot know who goes to be with Christ so I never comment on that, especially when the deceased’s commitment wasn’t perhaps what it could have been. In a funeral, I preach the evrlasting riches of the gracve of God through Christ Jesus and I let the Holy Spirit be Himself.
Yes.
The first person I ever knew who committed suicide was a guy named Cory, who was one of the most devout Christians I have ever met. He was one of those people whose faith informed everything he did, who acted with compassion toward everyone he met, and was beloved by all. I lost touch with him a couple years before he killed himself, which is insane because his office was in the same building as mine, but you know how “life gets in the way.”
One day, to the jaws-on-the-floor shock of everyone, he went out and bought a gun, went to his grandparents’ farm, and shot himself.
He was a fragile sort of person, one of those who felt things so deeply, more deeply than the average person…and to this day, we don’t know exactly why, what he was going through, what was going through his mind. Cory was one of those who spent so much time caring for other people, and, the crime and the lesson is that, because he was so passionate and happy on the outside, we didn’t dig deeply enough with him. He was just Cory. Happy-go-lucky Cory, who sometimes had an anger problem that the collective “we” attributed to “oh, just testosterone, some people get pissed off and beat the hell out of their pickup trucks.” Obviously there was something much deeper going on there.
That actually popped into my mind when I was talking about those who are terminally ill choosing to die. I somehow, the more I think about it, find that different.
I wholeheartedly agree, Rick – the idea of suicide being unpardonable came about in the Roman Catholic Church, as an answer to the need for confession in order to have sins forgiven. Like “predestination” and other post-apostolic doctrines, it is a systematic view unsupported by the preponderance of scripture.
Is suicide a sin? Well, yes, as it is murder of the self. Can it be forgiven? I would assume so, since the only unpardonable sin is “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”…
What about folks with psychological disorders or problems, Paul?
Worse circumstances in who’s view, Paul? That can be very relative sometimes.
Friends,
I also think of a person named Samson.
Also, I was thinking of this. We never really fully understand why a person commits suicide. It may never fully make sense. Perhaps they have some deep desperation, some sin they cannot escape. Well, not only that, but the enemy still prowls about looking for someone to devour.
I used to think suicide unforgivable for the same reasons PB gave. But that cannot be true for the reasons Rick gave. Perhaps, in some, but not all, circumstances, suicide becomes a sort of ‘better to enter the kingdom without a hand than with both enter hell’ kind of situation. Does that make sense? And I’m certainly not suggesting that people should run out and commit suicide!!! That may be pushing it a bit, but then I think of Samson who may have died for some reason similar to that (although I would have to study his situation a bit more to be sure).
Anyhow, this is all very helpful conversation and I do appreciate all the feedback. I think grace has to prevail when counseling. The enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent still exists even if there is a certain victory in the cross.
jerry
A little girl is abused by her stepfather. When she reaches the age of 8, a compassionate neighbor begins to take her to church and show her thye love of Christ. By the age of 9 she believes in Jesus and begs him to help ,her.
Her shame is so deep and so profound that hse still hasn’t shared with anyone that she is raped 3 times a week. She watches as her mother loves this monster, and her depression takes on unfathomable proportions.
She goes on a mission trip and is excited as she sees sould come to Christ. Her church is her life but at night she cannot sleep as she anticipates being violated by the man her mother loves. She has seen her mother desperately sad when her real father left, so she doesn’t want to destroy her world again.
After years of depression and thinking that everyone is happy but her, she decends into a darkness that not many have experienced. Her grades suffer, she begins to cut herself, and her mother begins to yell at her for her unexplained downward spiral.
One night, cluthching her cat, she goes into eternity to stop the pain and see Jesus.
If God sends that little girl to hell He isn’t the God I serve.
I agree, Rick.
As I said above, I don’t think we who have not been there can actually understand the mental state a person has to be in to actually commit suicide. I think for most, it has to do with some secret, seemingly inescapable torture, whether it’s something internal or external, something that people think they can’t share, can’t imagine sharing…
The scenario you described, Rick, actually reminds me of something, and since this post is threaded through with music…I remember a story Tori Amos told years and years ago about one of her first tours, when a girl came up to her after the show crying her eyes out, and, because Tori has always been very forthcoming with the story of her own rape, shared that her father raped her every night, and that she couldn’t take it anymore, and Tori was the first person she had told, and if she went home that night, she was going to kill herself. Tori, obviously, freaked a bit and decided that, whatever they had to do, they were going to take that girl with them. Unfortunately, someone on the tour reminded everybody that it’s sort of a felony to transport a minor across state lines. So the girl had to go home. Tori did everything she could to put the girl in touch with a safe place, but really, nobody knows what happened to that girl.
The experience hit Tori so hard that she founded the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN), so that any victim of sexual abuse in the United States would never be more than a free phone call away from a rape counselor, 24 hours a day, whether it happened 5 minutes ago, 5 years ago, or every night for the last 5 years. Undoubtedly, it’s saved lives.
Because you haven’t been there. Be grateful for that.
I think that’s kind of like comparing apples and oranges, because things affect people differently, some of us have better coping mechanisms than others, some of us deal with anger, with loneliness, with abuse, with isolation, with pain, with hopelessness better than others. I think the old “until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes” rule applies here, which reminds me of another song I’m going to bring in her and put on my blog. The great Depeche Mode. I’ll post the link once I run git it off the YouTubes.
Depeche Mode – “Walking In My Shoes”
Compassion and grace first. Over the years God has molded me into a Gracian, one who sees his own grace as the prism through which I try to see others.
I hate the judgment of the unredeemed because it is VOID of grace. On 8th Avenue in New York City I would walk and pray and speak to the runaways. They are dirty, morally loose, sometimes violent, and with a cache of addictions.
And yet God loves them and died for them just as he did for me and you. I could say the same thing about the gay community in Greenwhich Village. Many are talented, many are frriendly, many have careers, but many are unfriendly and conflicted. Many use drugs and alcohol and some do not interact well with others.
Does the love of God end at the door of sin?
Why was that thirteen year old child carrying an AK-47, forcing me to cut him in half with my weapon. The military called him the enemy, I saw a child.
It was my turn to walk point. Larry Busik said, “no, I wanna go this time“. Twenty feet later, Larry was dead with right side of his head blown away. I was just a singled guy, no attachments, Larry was married with two kids. Lord? Why did he have to die, why didn’t you take me instead. I wouldn’t have to be dealing with the guilt I carry now.
I walked into a trip wire, never saw the damned thing. Two guys behind me died because I didn’t pay attention to details. At least that’s how I saw it.
How many nights I still wake up, bathed in sweat, climbing up the headboard trying to flee some battle that is still going on in my subconscious, when all I want is a good night’s sleep.
For some reason, God lets these and many other memories remain. Lord knows how many times I’ve asked for relief.
I don’t write this trying evoke sympathy. I deal with it, some days better than others. I offer this mostly as some insight, to show you how often times suicide more times than not is dealing with guilt that a person carries and can find only one avenue for relief.
Yes, I know I’m forgiven, but it’s often times very difficult to forgive yourself. I don’t ponder suicide as I once did, but that is only after many years of therapy and reflection.
It was the secular folks that helped me through the worse times. And I’m sadden that I have to make that statement.
In my experience I got only the references I highlighted that Paul C. made from the churches I frequented. The more I thought about it the more I became dismayed with what Paul C. said.
Thanks Jerry, for bringing this all up, I wasn’t going to say anything but that nudge I was getting inside wouldn’t let me say nothing. Yes, it needs to be dealt with and the “church” has to take a long hard look on how it is dealt with. Most of us folks don’t need lectures, we just need for someone to just sit and listen……Us veterans jokingly call ourselves the walking dead. We’re not that hard to spot. There is a look in the eye that shows what’s inside, if we are willing to look.
But Paul C. says;
I
Thank you, Scotty, I was moved by your testimony. Things like that cannot be completed by human words. I have no idea except that Christ, in a mystery, is the answer.
Not a cold doctrinal creed that is used as a springboard to prove our orthodoxy and suck the mystery out of following Christ. Jesus has met me in places that cannot be surrounded by words or creeds, I am sure you would agree as well.
Our Saviour tasted death for us all, and the crowning gem on His diadem is that He who knew no sin wraps Himself around the vilest among us.
David Berkowitz murdered innocent people and Christ drew such a man to Himself. Many of the families have not found peace, and yet this demon driven man is one of the most humble servants of Christ I have heard.
Thanks again, Scotty.
If we have to repent for every sin before death to avoid punishment from God, then we must be working for our salvation, and have disregarded Christ.
Scotty,
Like I said earlier, it’s people like you that encouraged me to join the military. And it’s stories like yours that make the deployments away from my wife and son okay. And I’m glad we’re brothers. Everything has it’s purpose.
Joe
AMEN, Rick, AMEN!
And….thanks, Joe
Thank you Scotty.
I thought the above comments were very well put and have caused me to think twice.
I reflect on Pilgrim’s Progress (reading now) when Christian and Hopeful were taken captive by Giant Despair and tortured, then offered poison and other methods to just end the torment. Christian was tempted to end it all, but Hopeful convinced him otherwise. Finally they escaped their shackles when Christian remembered the key he was given called Promise.
Indeed, I can see how this question has many facets and the reason a person might take his life is as deep as the ocean. I don’t see suicide as the unpardonable sin either.
Thank you, Paul.
That was good of you to say, Paul. Thanks.