Friends,
I sometimes visit a blog called Always Ready which is written by Samuel Guzman. I happened to visit this morning and I happened to come across this post: Lay Down Your Arms, Get on Your Knees. In the short post, he writes:
Brothers and sisters, I firmly believe that God is not pleased with the great majority of what is published on blogs in his name. Why? Because there is no humility in the writing, and very little sense of our own frailty and susceptibility to sin (Isaiah 66:1-2). There is no sense of grief at sin; rather, there is an ungodly glibness, almost a joy, in pointing out the error of others. Everyone wants to be a prophet, they just don’t want to know God. Everyone wants to be a Paul Washer, they just don’t want to spend hours and hours studying God’s Word, seeking God’s face in prayer, and growing in conformity to Him like Paul Washer does. It sure is fun to make the air crackle with sharp words against sin, but no one wants to face the sin in their own heart. Everyone wants to be a prophet, they just don’t want to waste time getting to know God. After all, condemning sin and defending the truth is so much more fun.
You know what? I agree with nearly everything in this paragraph and, indeed, the entire post! The only thing I disagree with is that ‘everyone’ wants to be Paul Washer. I personally have no desire whatsoever to be Paul Washer and I spend a lot of time studying and reading and praying and trying to follow Jesus. I don’t know how ‘growing in conformity to Him [I assume he means Jesus]‘ will make us more like Paul Washer? Why not skip the whole ‘be like Washer’ nonsense and go straight to being like Jesus? After all, if I am conformed to the image of Jesus, then being like Paul Washer is a rather meaningless exercise, right? (Personally, I’d rather be like well, just about anyone but Paul Washer (he cries too much and I don’t like crying, he has that small issue called ‘Calvinismitis’ (which he has trouble maintaining amidst all those altar calls), and, well, he’s so humble he wouldn’t want me to be like him anyhow. 
)
Anyhow, good job Samuel! It’s a great post and well written and I wanted you to know that we here at CRN.info recognize good substance when we see it. Now, if only we can get the right people to read what you have written…
Always For His Glory!
133 Comments(+Add)
Um, Jerry, you forgot to highlight this line from that post:
\”If you are reading this post and thinking of someone else who needs to repent, you are both missing and confirming my point. My point is, look at your own heart. Examine yourself.\”
Ya think? Does that include a great majority of what is published on CRN on which he is a contributor? Or SoL?
kim,
where did Jerry say that this article applied to someone else who needs to repent? Unless you are saying that Jerry is unrepentant and wrong. If that is the case, you are missing the point.
Kim,
I didn’t miss it at all. I didn’t specify who should read it, I just said the right people. I read it first so what does that tell you about the point I am making? Thanks for reading.
jerry
Kim
Again, why are you so worried about someone else’s repentance… why not do some yourself… I mean I find it ironic you are pointing out to Jerry he needs to read this and apply it to himself after you read it and thought only to tell Jerry HE NEED REPENT…
Good grief…
iggy
I agree, Jerry needs some serious repentance.
Jerry,
Man as I read through it that “be Paul Washer” jumped out… Are they creating the perfect CHristian idol in their own image and it seems to look like PW?
I agree, why not strive to be like Jesus and learn to love him and learn all you can about Him… Spend time with Jesus not just the bible and Paul Washer…
And I will add… since a good majority of these people think prophecy ended with the bible being published… why are they now trotting out PW as a prophet… that is very confusing? How can the give of prophecy end… and yet all want to be prophets (don’t try to explain this some have and it is just as confusing and contradiction in their bible gymnastics to prove they are right)
I listened to PW once… you know that one sermon…. and really not much there… sorry… it was boring and I could have heard it at any Assembly of God… yep those Arminians… In fact I prefer A Tozer or Maj Ian Thomas if I want that type of sermon… and there will be some real substance…
PW is not bad, just not what I would call a “prophet” maybe an evangelist… or preacher… but not really a prophet.
iggy
Jerry,
Who did you have in mind when you said “the right people?”
Maybe he meant the people God has prepared…
They would certainly be the ‘right’ people
Amy,
I meant anyone who reads it and understands it and needs to do exactly what he is saying needs to be done. I had no one in particular in mind. I meant, me.
Q: What is the problem with the church? (Or blogosphere?)
A: I am.
iggy,
that is precisely the problem I have with Washer, but i don’t think he creates that idol. I think others create the idol–and isn’t it hard to let the ego stay at bay? I have listened to exactly one of his sermons–some youth conference he promised he would never be invited back to again. It was a moving sermon, to be sure. So what. I’ve preached exactly the same sermon to a church full of widows. No one cares except those who need someone to cling to besides Jesus. “They call it riding the gravy-train…” (Pink Floyd)
jerry
The Paul Washer thing is just idolatry and sensationalism. They advertise one of his sermons as so hot that he’s never invited back. His sermons are decidedly Arminian although he’s touted as reformed/Calvinist. It puts the emphasis on the messenger and not the message, but hey, every camp has their heros.
As to the original quote, I agree except it comes from someone who actually wrote the “about us” on CRN. All this site would need to do is claim to be a discernment site and “boom”, you can do and say anything. I consider this to be a correction site, and yes, they don’t always get it right, and I have never seen one article that linked to a secular new article that is happily exposing the personal sin of some believer OR unbeliever.
This sentence is especially curious:
That could be the “about us” at SoL.
Jerry,
You had me scared for half a second when I read “Everyone wants to be Paul Washer.”
Paul seems as sure about everyone’s unregenerate nature as he is about his own genuine conversion.
Ironic that people who are so opposed to “church marketing” have no qualms marketing Paul Washer.
Frankly, I would not want to be in Paul Washer’s shoes. I don’t like that whole tearful “woe-is-me, I’m being a spiritually abusive guest speaker and they won’t have me back” approach.
I can imagine PW’s approach has appeal to those struggling with continued guilt and shame, who insist on reliving and condemning themselves for their past lives instead of seeing themselves the way God sees them the moment they accepted Christ as their Redeemer.
I say Paul Washer is spiritually abusive because without knowing anyone’s standing before God, or where they are in their walk, he paints everyone in his audience as not truly converted. What does this do a person new to the faith? All of a sudden, thanks to Washer’s shocking message, they have to stop sinning before and after their conversion–in spite of John’s first letter warning about those who say they no longer sin, in spite of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians (living in horrible sin, but were still babes in Christ). All of a sudden their conversion is invalid based on Washer’s say-so? What else must one do to be saved?
Samuel does makes some wonderful points, but, as others pointed out, it comes packaged in “the following applied to everyone but…” and a pedestal with a sign that reads “reserved for Paul Washer.”
Sandman,
That was a pleasure to read. You have understood well my angst with setting up anyone, and I mean anyone, the way certain ADM/Reformed folks have set up Washer. Others do the same with the Pope. Others the same with Rick Warren. Others the same with Rick Frueh or Richard Abanes or my friend Pastor Ken Silva. Others the same with Rob Bell or Erwin McManus or Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland.
This is why, in my opinion, preachers should be local and stay local. I dislike the entire idea of the traveling evangelist: It’s too easy for them to become idols (not that Washer seeks it, but that others make him that.)
jerry
Jerry, I’m tracking with you.
Don’t idolize your leaders.
I’m sure Washer isn’t looking to be idolized, but it’s hard to say he’s not setting himself up to be a martyr in his own time and mind with the “no one’s preaching the message I’m preaching, and I won’t be invited back because of it” routine.
Traveling evangelists. I’d have to draw a distinction. Had the temple not been destroyed, it’s likely the Apostles would’ve not left Jerusalem, so I am glad they traveled. I don’t care much for the traveling evangelist of today, who blow into town long enough to give a canned sermon, hawk their wares and blow town immediately following the collection.
I don’t object to churches that grow as a result of good teaching and people are actively using the gifts God gave them and the Spirit is active there as a result.
Two things I do object to:
1. That people will try on their own to duplicate a genuine move of the Holy Spirit, bottle it, and try to make the same thing work elsewhere.
2. That others, out of a sense of territorial fear, see lots of good things happening at some other church (that’s not happening at their own) and fear that church will steal their sheep; so they villify that church and slap labels on them like liberal, neoevangelical, emerging, emergent, apostate, ecuminical, and so on.
yikes…
I’m surprised the imams haven’t weighed in yet with “touch not the Lord’s annointed”…
we’ll see, we’ll see…
I have a bottle of the Holy Spirits movement…. ummm sorry that just does not sound right… I agree with the original statement…
iggy
Igs,
careful now…remember what happened when I wisecracked about the Holy Spirit losing his job?
Jerry – I held a meeting of those who set me up and only my three children showed up!
I agree with this post and add that many people read scripture ( I am guilty myself) and think “This would be really good for such and so” and it really is pointing the finger square at me.
I need to be a preacher that reads the scripture, and think of Nathan pointing at David and saying ‘you are the man!” That is- this Word is for you first and foremost!
Most of the preachers here will agree, as they are preparing a message almost always God is teaching you, and brings circumstances into your life to test if you got the message! I know it is true that if I am not getting the message God sheds light on His Word through circumstances that enter in that week.
Oh that I would read the scripture like that and allow God to clearly communicate with me!
Good article.
You meant you? People don’t normally communicate about an action that has already happened (your reading of the article) by using a subjective statement.
How could you have meant for that statement to have been interpreted as applying to yourself when it’s talking about something that hasn’t happened yet? You read the article. past tense. IF . . . CAN GET – some sort of future conditional/subjective statement which applies to things that haven’t happened yet.
And who is the “we” whom you refer to in “If only we?” The natural way to interpret that, considering that it is written on this site, is that it refers to you and the other writers or you and other people on CRN.Info who are sympathetic to your criticisms of ODMs. Wouldn’t most of those people be reading the article since you linked to it? Wouldn’t it have been clearer to say, “Hey guys, you and I really need to read this and take it to heart?” To avoid ambiguity. If that’s what you really meant.
If that’s what you really meant, instead of some implied suggestion that there are ODMs out there who need to read Sam’s article.
Since you at CRN.Info so frequently reject criticisms of having characteristics of those ODMs you condemn, you might want to explain WHY you as a site that constantly rejects suggestions that you embody characterisics of the ODM’s you criticize suddenly actually recognize that you might share in some of those characteristics.
If you really think that is the case.
Whatever Rick thought you meant, he is talking about how this should apply to ODM’s. Which is the normal way that CRN.Info looks at things.
Rephrase:
you have become what you hate, but I don’t hate what you hate it because it leans in the direction of my hate therefore I’m more inclined to hate you rather than take an objective look at my hate.
Amy,
Jerry already answered you, and you refuse to take him at his word. You are supposedly saying you know his motivation better than he does. It’s a bit ridiculous, actually, given that Jerry was trying to pay a compliment with his post.
When you approach a piece always assuming the worst, it’s easy to pick out things that you would do differently. Talk about straining at a gnat…
BTW I don’t think this post was about hate or pointing fingers. I was just trying to find a way to adequately express the inane argumentation of “your just as bad because…”
The you’re just as bad argument makes no sense because it doesn’t address the fact that the accuser does it as well.
As for your comment Amy, I don’t understand most of what you wrote. It seems like a really long and puffed up way of saying “I don’t believe you”. That’ve been a lot easier in my opinion. Have a nice day everyone.
Joe
ai yi yi…
Jerry said what his intention was.
gimme a break, Amy.
ya know, if you always thought from the beginning that he had other intentions, why not just lay that out and accuse him from the get go?
“Asking questions” is not just some “technique” you use so you can try to zing people, but then claim you “were just asking questions”, etc. etc.
sheeeeeeyeeeeeeesh.
talk about nit picking and over analyzing.
Phil,
Can any CRN.Info non-enthusiast make any critical remark without being called to account for “assuming the worst,” “reading uncharitably,” etc?
You don’t have to assume that I approached the post assuming the worst. That’s your choice. But whatever you assume it doesn’t change the fact that there is a discrepancy between what Jerry said and what he said he meant.
If I wrote:
“I read an insightful article yesterday about how some folks don’t want to hold their own accountable. If only we can get the right people to read that article . . . ”
The “right people” would be talking about someone other than myself. Clearly. Clearly I already read the article.
Finding something that I would say “differently” and finding something that is definitely contradictory is not the same thing.
I simply find it impossible to make the sentence “Now, if only we can get the right people to read what you have written…” into Jerry’s having meant that he was talking about himself.
Amy,
Just a few thoughts:
Do you ever level those criticisms at the ODMs? Oh, that’s right, they typically don’t allow comments that politely and rationally disagree. The fact that you can comment here is a difference in characteristics.
Have we been wrong here? Yep, and you can locate the posts that have been appended with an UPDATE and people being called out on their error. Another difference.
Have the ODMs been in error? Yep, and in the case of one site, an erroneous post disappears faster than democracy in China with barely an explanation. It helps to maintain the appearance that once something is posted there, all the thinking has been done and there is to be no discussion. Another difference.
The writers here are of different persuations and don’t always agree with each other — vehemently and publicly. Another difference.
Imagine what kind of NT we’d have if the Apostles exercised veto power every time they were portrayed as … some of the duller knives in the drawer.
I see some significant differences between the two types of sites.
Amy,
I’m not saying you can’t question the way something was written. In fact we encourage it here by actually allowing comments. But once you question an author and get an answer, that should be enough. Instead, you still refuse to take Jerry at his word.
None of us are perfect writers, and none of us claim to be. I believe Jerry answered your question in good faith. If you don’t, that’s your prerogative, I suppose. But you have to understand it’s our prerogative to ignore you once you admit you refuse to believe us.
Joe,
Long and puffed up?
How about, took the time to explain (at least 30 minutes) why what Jerry said doesn’t match up with what he said he meant.
Maybe you could take at least 5 minutes and ponder through it several times and see if it makes sense?
It’s always simpler to ignore criticisms, to condemn the criticizer, than to take the time to look and consider what they have said.
And maybe you could take a day or two off of here and go back and read articles and comment sections and the very reason CRN.Info exists and tell me why I should assume that a writer here wouldn’t think of pointing fingers at ODM’s.
And other constructive comments such as “sheeesh!”
Why do I suddenly feel like a naughty, scolded skinny child?
I’m sure many people who’ve been trapped in cults, or questioned immoral goings-on in their churches have been told the same thing, Phil.
But if you really hold firm to your advice, I suggest you think about how it could apply to the very existence of this site. And to numerous conversations on this site, the majority of which I am not involved in.
I really didn’t know that THINKING and trying to make sense out of what people actually say and what they say they mean was a crime.
For all who have answered Jerry’s question,
It seems as if people of integrity would patiently wait for Jerry to come out and answer the question I’ve put before him in an objective manner.
Why the need to gather round and put yourselves on offense when the question wasn’t even addressed to you?
Why the need to treat your critics (and I’m talking about everyone who comes here and poses a question that challenges you) like naughty children with bad motives?
If you’re above criticism, make it clear, at the top of your site. I could write the banner for you.
Amy,
Lesson #1. Don\’t ever come to this site and question the 6 regular readers. You will be swarmed and kicked down fast. There\’s only one viewpoint here and that\’s to hate the \”ODM\’s\”s. Isn\’t that funny?
Amy,
It would be one thing if Jerry really blew you off, but this is what Jerry’s reply was:
It seems pretty straight-forward and humble to me.
No one has said they’re above criticism, with the exception of you, possibly. Jerry already did answer you. You refuse to accept his first answer. There’s no indication you’ll accept his second either.
I’ve been around here long enough to know how these things go. Any attempt to answer you will lead you to level more and more accusations, and finally 100 comments later people will throw up their hands in frustration. I think this is my attempt and others to nip it in the bud.
Oh, the irony is almost too much to bear…
Jerry and the rest of the authors get blasted for hating the ODMs on a post that is complimentary to one of them.
That will teach you, Jerry…
oh, yes…
Kim and Amy…you poor things.
It’s just so mean to you and your inflated sense of “right-ness” when people don’t lay down for you.
gimme a break.
you can come down off the cross at any time…we need the wood.
Amy,
the reason why people are gathering around is because Jerry did answer your question and it still isn’t good enough.
That’s what you’re getting critiqued for.
And you say people here won’t face criticism…
Handle it.
Kim, this pretty much has nothing to do with hate towards ODMs, come on.
Plenty of people come here and question, and are allowed to (unlike the ODM sites who don’t allow discussion), and when people here are wrong, they’re wrong, and we’ve had that happen plenty.
Amy, ‘long and puffed up’ meaning:
“long and having lots of words that don’t mean much to me”. As in it feels like you added extra stuff you didn’t need and it got confusing. And I clarified this by saying “you could have just said “I don’t believe you”. Since Jerry already explained himself, why should he have to say the same thing again? That’s all I meant, don’t get snarky with me please. I understand your frustration but I mean you no harm. Believe that.
As for taking time off… I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’m not here all too often compared to most. There are other things going on…
Joe
RE: Why do I suddenly feel like a naughty, scolded skinny child?
Maybe because you don’t like getting called out on your gentle carping?
Maybe you can’t abide mistakes in yourself and the realization makes your stomach churn?
Who knows? I don’t what your deal is.
The human psyche is complex…
re: I understand your frustration …
I don’t.
The bottom line?
Amy, you constantly disagree with us. That probably is not going to change. We TRY to be different, we WANT to be different, and we WANT to HELP the people hurt by the ODM ministries which make a living out of, seriously, poor research, slander, and outright lies/dishonest reporting. You may or may not agree with that assesment, but that’s one of the reasons this site exists. Would it be better if we were gone? You tell me? Should the ODMs reign supreme and unchecked? You tell me.
I’m here not to post articles about the ODMs but my own Bible Studies so everyone can get built up, or I can be corrected (and I’d post more but the admin site won’t let me, it errors out, SOMEONE HELP!).
So let me ask you this Amy
Why are YOU here, friend?
Joe
I thought Jerry was referring in general to the ODMs, however also including all of us. But I also wondered whether Samual was referring to the sites he frequents as well.
For the record – I have had confrontations with Joe Martino, some with Tim Reed, some with Iggy, some with Abanes, and even a few with Chris Lyons. There have been instances where they acquiesced to my views and many where they engaged me with a different view.
And if you cull out one, just one, where they took inventory of what I said and changed, it stands as one more than I have ever seen coming from the couple of familiar ODMs.
I wish I could get the right people to understand that.
Joe C,
Switch to Firefox
Joe M
Kim,
I’m more in the ODM camp than the CRN.Info camp (although I do try to be balanced) and I get into some very pointed disagreements. But I find people are courteous here for the most part if you are and I have learned a lot from these guys. It is possible to disagree and still be “friends”. Try it!
Uh-oh Kim!
You’re using a PHP proxy to hide your true IP. Why is that? What’s your agenda? What identity are you trying to hide? I suggest she be put in moderation until her IP can be verified.
I find it funny/sad that even when the post is named “I agree with this post” those will find a way to come judge and condemn and disagree…
Amy,
Why can’t you take Jerry at his word? Why can’t Jerry state he agrees with the post and that not be good enough for you? It seems you missed both the intent and hte message…
I had thought you were doing better in how you address others, but it seems you are back to your old ways.
I read through this thread and found at least 3 people who stated that you can state disagreement here… unlike most of the ODM sites (I say most as I have only found one contributor that will actually have a conversation with me and that seems like truly a nice guy)
Yet, even though this is pointed out over and over… you still try to place a motive on others. Why?
Disagreement is not sin… but truly you seem to have a need to be “right” and find only wrong with others here again… why? What is YOUR motive for this? Is it to edify and lift up others or is it to just pick fights and argue?
Only you can answer these questions… yet I suspect instead of looking at yourself you will pick this apart to show me how wrong or bad or whatever I am in your eyes instead.
Be blessed,
iggy
I think this site is good in that it allows comments
and, for the record, I am considered an ODM and I allow comments on ALL my sites.
Joe,
Thanks for making my point. What\’s my agenda? To disagree occasionally with what I see here. My company uses something called Secure Tunnel and anything that goes out over their Internet service is by proxy. Sorry to break your conspiracy theory.
Jerry posted Samual Guzman’s post on this blog. Please direct me to one post from here that was ever posted on CRN or SoL.
I await with breathless anticipation.
Kim,
Yeah…he sure made “your point”–whatever that is…
Actually, if you knew anything about the history of the this site you’d know that IP transparency is a good and necessary thing.
Then again, your shrieking incoherence makes sense since you’re probably firing off comments in a rush while you’re gadding about on your company’s time.
Everyone please update your rolodex with this:
Rick Frueh is above criticism.
I did not want to post that, but I am bound by truth.
Kim,
If that is your agenda, then why the accusations and judging of others. Disagreement is not sin, but to cast judgment and condemnation on others is…
I see you tend toward judging others motives and not just raising you point in disagreement. You seem to attack the person and not the argument…
Also, ODM’s often use proxy servers to cover their tracks… paranoid or what I am not sure, and it has been done by some here… ever so often by some who decide to be dishonest and use different names to post… again, why? We don’t know, but it seems consistent with the dishonesty that is running rampant at many ODM sites.
So if Joe is pointing this out and is wrong, then why not try a bit of forgiveness?
I also want to know if you ever disagree with ODM sites? And if you do, do you ever email them or comment in such a harsh manner with them?
iggy
I also agree with nc… often I am not sure what “point” is made when amy or Kim say their point was made.
You expect us to believe that a corporate proxy exists which renders every apostrophe as a slash. Call me conspiracy minded if you will, but somehow I don’t think such a product would be adopted by a corporation.
Especially since when I google Secure Tunnel all I come up with is a consumer product which is marketed to individuals as a way to mask their identity. Perhaps you could point us to the website of this service which sells such a flawed product to corporations.
I found that at my work I have to use a proxy service to see sites that are not allowed by the corp. I also found that if a site like oldtruth.com blocks your isp you need to use a proxy to see it.
Now, most the sites I go to need no proxy…
except the odm sites I am band from for disagreeing with them or pointing out their errors… such as at OT
iggy
Kim,
I am not sure that your answer is good enough. Or to put it another way, see Amy’s ongoing questions about my intent with this post.
Jerry
John,
For the record, I never considered you an ODM, just someone who agrees mostly with what they do.
And yeah, it’s good to allow comments, dissenting or otherwise. Keeps people accountable. Hopefully.
igs,
other than some kind of game that always goes like this:
1. The ODM claim: “Our opponents are rage filled and mean.”
2. The act: Some kind of verbal kicking of people in the shins and poking them in the eyes that is based on mistruth, lies, or disagreement augmented by character assasination.
3. The response: Justifiable frustration and critique of #2 is directed at ODM’s
4. The flourish: ODM’s and their sycophants cry: SEE! You ARE rage filled and mean!!! You’ve become what you hate!!!!
huh?
it’s like telling an abused wife that she ruined the marriage and is so evil to her husband because she got up and walked out of the relationship.
to add salt in the wound it’s like then claiming that there is something wrong with her being angry as she has some choice words for the abuser when she walks out the door with her black eyes and broken arm.
some people…
yeesh.
Kim,
I think you’re lying.
having said that, Glad I can help.
The only one here that seems angry that she is being disagreed with is you.
hmmmm….
there is a link on Secure Tunnels site for “corporate” accounts.
who knows?
but honestly,
I don’t care about that stuff…it really doesn’t matter.
What matters is the content of her comments.
Here is my e-mail address:
spcrick@msn.com
Everyone else who doesn’t have a blog give us your name and e-mail address. Why all the secrecy?
Rick Frueh
Valrico, Florida
Who cares, really? If she is masking her IP intentionally or not, it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t change the validity or invalidity of her statements at all. It’s really a non-issue to me. To me. Maybe it’s offensive or bad to others? Why do we care where she’s posting from? Maybe I’m naive.
Joe
I have been using Rick Frueh as a pseudonym. I am actually Sarah Palin.
Well, it might matter if she herself were an ODM coming here to post comments under another name so that later she could create a post about her truth and then quote herself as someone who has a legit concern about this site.
It would work like this:
Person A who runs an ODM site comes here and comments us PERSON B, posting a concern about the tone here or about becoming what you hate, etc.
PERSON A then creates a blog post where s/he uses his/her persona of PERSON B as proof that there is a problem here.
That’s why it matters. Her comments are so far out of reality that it makes me wonder.
At 11:07 AM this morning I became what I hate. I am sorry.
nc,
It is a sad game of blame the victim. Sadly for what good is at many of the sites, the junk there detracts from the good.
I see this site as good and yet we all being humans fail in our attempt to be good. I have yet to see a truly “mean” post. I have only seen where the writers see something that needs addressing and when it is brought up, instead of addressing the issue, call many of us mean or angry or hateful… I have yet to see anyone here refer to anyone as a “painted girl of Sodom” or refer to an ODM church as a clown church…
I have seen ODM sites take something little and make it a circus… or take a sentence way out of context to attack and try to harm someone else’s ministry… yet some still come here and say that pointing that out is wrong and hateful… strange to me…
I guess Jesus was wrong and hateful for pointing out the error of the Pharisees of his day.
Interestingly, Pharisees did not hold an office or any official position. They were self appointed men that felt it was their calling to point out the sins of others. They felt that by making Israel righteous according to the Law they could force God to free them from exile. I see the ODM’s as no different… self appointed watchdogs to point out the sin of others and yet never really do the things they point out themselves. They only seem to justify their actions and nullify the very laws they create.
I read at Ken Silva’s blog that Satan has entered the church… now if the church if the Body of Christ that is one of the most blasphemous statements one could say! Ken without realizing it stated that Satan is in JEsus… ! Yet, not one person I know of has stood against that lie…
Why? It is a hateful thing to say of Jesus that Satan lives in him… so why is Ken allowed to state such horrific things against Jesus and His Body? Why do Kim and amy stand for Ken to state such untrue things of Jesus yet come here and condemn this site for being hateful for pointing out such obvious disregard for the Bible and it’s truth and Jesus himself… calling him Satan filled?
iggy
I hate what I became and Jesus freed me… Glory!
iggy
And it is amazing how many times I hear that excuse instead of getting an answer to the question.
Straight off the bat.
Comment #37 (nc’s)
Addressed to Kim and Amy:
Your continual use of religious comparisons to cut people down – Holy Spirit, Trinity, High Priestess, etc makes me think that you are under the control of a demon.
Seriously.
#39 (Joe C)
And then what, be criticized for not backing up, giving reasons for what I was saying?
Kim, comment 49
Kim’s ANSWER to your question. Yet there are how many comments/questions following? What’s the matter, can’t you simply accept her answer?
Jerry has NOT answered the questions in #22. He has not explained to me how “If . . . we can” refers to I read, past tense.
It’s a simple question.
Instead of getting an answer I’ve gotten jumped on by everyone.Or to put it another way, see Amy’s ongoing questions about my intent with this post
Nip it in the bud…
Accidentally hit submit:
Jerry
Why don’t you simply answer my questions in #22? People saying that you have answered my question doesn’t mean that you have, does it?
I think truth is important. Words and how they are put together create meaning.
Have you answered my question #22? NO.
When someone writes something that is an apparent contradiction, it is helpful if they try to clear the situation up instead of turning the questioner into the bad guy/gal.
Do you agree ?Is so, it seems that you would attempt to answer #22. If not, then it seems that you would be perfectly content not answering #22.
When Kim first commented (comment #1) you answered her by talking about “the right people” sentence.
Which she hadn’t mentioned.
So you must have somehow known that you were looking to apply this post to others and not yourself came from that comment.
If you, on your own, came to that conclusion, then don’t you think it’s reasonable to answer questions about that particular comment?
Should read “So you must have somehow known that Kim’s thinking that you were looking to apply this post to others and not yourself came from that comment.”
New post time… How about a topic/study on this question,
Does 2 Peter 2:1 imply that a false prophet can only be a non-believer?
I agree with Amy’s assessment of NC, though I wouldn’t say has a demon, I would say that nc uses these illustrations casually, which indicates a breaking of the second commandment. It seems very blasphemous to me.
But NC does not care, NC has gotten after me because I expressed concern for the casual use of the Holy Spirit (God) and Jesus’ precious sacrifice (come off the cross) but, NC will have to be judged by God for this casual use. I just will warn and disassociate myself from fellowship with NC
That we could all be so lucky
Amy,
Let me ask you a question: To whom do you think Samuel Guzman was directing his post? If you can tell me who the object of his post was, I will be happy to try, once again, to convince you that the ‘right people’ is not someone other than me. As it is, you have your shorts all in a wad over nothing. Has someone promised you a cookie if you make me crack?
I agree with Samuel Guzman, except for his drivel about Paul Washer, and I applauded his courage for writing a post that flies in the face of the standard ODM MO. He’s a brave man for writing what he did and I wanted him to know that I respect him for doing so.
Now, if we can just get the right people to read Samuel Guzman’s excellent post (except for that Paul Washer nonsense)….I meant no one in particular. I meant me.
jerry
Jesus paid the price for all the sins of the whole world, one must repent and believe, in other words obey the Gospel for His death to make the payment for them.
These false teachers have been purchased, but they have denied Christ who bought them. They prove it by their actions. Their condemnation is real, it will happen, even though God loves them they will be judged.
Jerry,
I read it for myself also. I am the man.
PB,
Ahhh. At last!!!!
jerry
#77:
PB, what does Commandment #2 (no graven images) have to do with nc?
Well perhaps, Iggy, it is because most people realize Ken is probably referring to wolves in sheeps clothing and he is asserting that Satan has “entered” via that route or through the writings of Ken’s favorite “heretics” de jeur. Not that Satan has possessed Christians. Your extrapolation is off in left field on this one, brother, and I am not a CRN apologist by any stretch.
Pastorboy,
I want to use this issue as an example, Todd bently has stated/posted on his site FreshFire ministries the standard tenants of faith. He acknowledges that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, etc.
Many call him a “false prophet”. 2 Peter 2:1 states that;
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. NASB
Now are these people who deny the master non-believers only, because if one isn’t denying Christ then he is a believer therefore cannot be labeled a false prophet. Many are calling TB a false prophet therefore a non-believer.
Yea, that was a self serving stretch. I still wonder if Samuel’s post had CRN or SoL in mind as well? It is very difficult to devote your entire ministry to reasearching and exposing the error in others and remain humble yourself.
Sometimes this discernment thing can become an addiction and causes you to view everything with a self righteous filter. Even when you present devotionals you are sometimes including an air of “this is the right doctrine” instead of being able to be lifted up with praise and broken worship.
That is sad…
When a person claims to have heard something from God that is heretical he is a false teacher. As to his standing in Christ, only God knows.
Amy,
Read my comment #42 and please let us know…
Why are YOU here, friend?
PB,
How Arminian of you! I mean, I agree with your assessment…but how do your ODM pals feel about you taking a shot at the
One True Gospel…I mean Calvinism?Joe
Another way to ask the question is
Can a believer become a false prophet?
Just for the record I’m on my
smokebreak whenever I post here between 9:00 – 5:00.It’s easier to degrade than it is to answer questions isn’t it?
“I read a great article on spiritual abuse. If only we can get the right people to read the article . . . ”
Clarification: This means:
“I read a great article on spiritual abuse. Now if only I could get myself to read that great article on spiritual abuse.”
Does that make sense to you? Do the following sentences also make sense?
Sarah’s son is in the army. If only we can get Sarah’s son to join the army. . .
David M. bought a new bike. If only we can get David M. to buy a new bike . . .
I read a great post and even congratulated the author on it . . . Now if only I can get myself to read what the author wrote.
A demon?!??!?!
I just laughed so hard water came out my nose!
Thanks for the comic relief, Amy. You’re a real piece of work.
What does “high priestess” have to do with anything? Are you just jealous of Ingrid’s calling and position?
Lovely way you spiritualize snark. Maybe I’ll just take a chapter from your book and ask loaded questions and then still not accept the answers I asked for.
Maybe that way you’d be edified. Let me know.
You may not like the potency of the image, but then again a lot of people were crucified–not just Jesus. Crucifixion is a historical reality and a colloquial term that speaks of people really getting the 3rd degree for something.
It’s not necessarily freighted with intentions about Jesus. In fact, I believe that phrase about the cross and wood is quote from Bob Dylan.
But there you go again…proclaiming what you really know about people’s motives and hearts and spiritualizing to gain the “high ground”.
I’m sure my clearly stated intention above isn’t good enough.
However, on the other hand, it IS nice to see that you can even spiritualize your defense of my critique of your “martyrdom”…poor thing, I mean it’s just soooo hard for you when people don’t lay down for your garbage. It’s a fantastic window into your own coping mechanisms.
But then again, I have a demon.
Seriously…
And PB,
I mean, how Cor. 5 of you.
How stalwart and full of conviction.
Seriously, thanks so much for your lovely consideration of my not having a demon. How balanced.
It is silly that you would say you’re disassociating from someone you’ve never been “associated” with in any real shape or form…
All that is is meaningless high-minded inanity to communicate the good news of your own righteousness to yourself.
I may have rubbed your sensitivities–which isn’t hard to do considering your clearly demonstrated anger issues–but blasphemy is not blasphemy on the basis of your assertion of it. OR anyone else’s “discomfort”.
And frankly, based on your own “witness” here I wouldn’t take gold bars from you unless the Lord descended in a cloud and told me to do so…
Finally, for both of you I didn’t see you shrivel up and just die when people–the High Priestess or the Guru I believe–over on one of the sites you drink so deeply from bashed Rowan Williams’ wife and asked her where her nail prints were for having a rough go of it as a spouse of someone in ministry.
You wonder why I’m not interested?
Demons?!?!?
Demons?
oy
Technically speaking I would say yes. A believer can get off track on a certain point of “orthodoxy” and if they teach others the error then technically they are a false prophet (i.e., a false forth-teller).
But I think the term is basically used for false-professors (i.e., unbelievers) attempting to intentionally deceive. (Sort of like Rick whose real website is Wolf of Samaria and not the Lion of Judah).
I would say that one can believe or teach heresy and be a Christian. For example, I would say that a good deal of the Word Faith movement is heresy, but I think a lot of its adherents are probably Christians still.
The thing is that God looks at the heart, and we can only guess at its true condition most of the time.
I liken it to this. As a little kid I would pick dandelions and give them my mom thinking they were flowers. My mom knew they weren’t flowers, but she accepted them and was blessed by them anyway. Now if I did that my mom would call me out for the cheap bastard that I was. So I guess a person’s heart motivation comes into play.
Personally, I think it’s better to have a true heart after God and have some questionable theology rather than have perfect theology but no real relationship with God. I mean even the disciples didn’t truly understand perfectly who Christ was while they were with Him, but the important thing is they were with Him. Eventually they learned what they needed to know. God honors obedience and a willing heart more than having all the right answers.
John Hughes,
Just for the record…while you and I have disagreed here before (vigorously), I’ve never seen you as unreasonable.
You are patient, fair, etc.
We just happen to disagree on somethings.
Any believer can become deceived and teach falsely. I do believe the inherrant nature of the term would refer to people who were attempting to draw people away from Christ. All of us have taught untruths at one time or another.
I would turn your attention to;
2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
I believe that most commentaries, from what I have read, points to the fact that “those who know the way to righteousness” can and are indeed believers who have accepted Christ as Savior. Hence a person such as you or I and Todd Bentley and others can indeed be a false prophet if we are not careful. I agree with you….
What is important is that I was here before; now IF ONLY I COULD get other people to be here.
Which, being interpreted, means, “I was here before, now IF ONLY I COULD get myself to be here . . . .”
Hope you don’t have a problem with that answer.
______
It would be a lot easier to say why I’m NOT here most of the time:
1)I appreciate truth and people who try to answer questions honestly without degrading, insulting answers. A site that not only welcomes commenters who disagree but engages them respectfully. Now IF ONLY this COULD be such a site . . .
Amy – I do not consider myself as unreasonable. But you seem to always arrive with aggressiveness and ready for confrontation. I do not often see you comment in an uplifting or benign way, you seem to always be looking for major league battle and mostly with a subtle or overt defense of other blogs.
Just sayin…
IWANTTHETRUTH,
I think that is the final question of the whole chapter. And if one looked at only that chapter, it would seem that yes, indeed a believer can become a false prophet, and indeed be eternally condemned.
Yet there are many passages that teach “eternal security.” For example, I John 5:18: We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
I only know one thing for certain: If I thought one of my children had turned away from the God that I thought they belonged to, either by a sinful lifestyle or actually denouncing Jesus as Savior . . . I would be in a constant state of prayer.
nc,
Do you believe in demons?
It’s curious that since I “drink so deeply” from the site you mentioned that I don’t even know what you’re talking about.
And it’s curious that you who knows that I drink so deeply from whichever site you are talking about would think that somehow you could see me just shrivel up and die had I read the article you mentioned.
Why is it garbage for me to question what Jerry said – because it does not make sense semantically, a question that any person involved in language and meaning could ask – but it’s not garbage for Joe to say, “Kim is lying.” Or for you to call Ingrid “High Priestess.” Or for Phil to say “Nip it in the bud.” Or for you to address a legitimate question with the “Sheeeesh” answer?
What are some synonyms for “relentless”?
Amy?
Amy,
Your answer was not an actual answer and you know it. Now before you go off saying “see jerry’s answer was not an answer” it should be known that he clarified and did answer you, to everyone’s satisfaction except you. But you have offered no real answer nor clarification. Just saying. Please show the maturity to others that you expect from others. And two ‘wrongs’ don’t make a right, right? So don’t do to me what you accuse Jerry of doing to you. Yadda.
Anyways, I’d say very few of us have given you degrading and insulting answers, and I feel most of us have engaged you respectfully, certainly the site contributors have been more than kind with your comments and demeanor. Which, from personal experience and also two-sided observation (since I used to agree 100% with them), is more than you’ll ever get from the ODMs. Just try disagreeing with them/correcting them.
Joe
Amy,
To whom did Samuel Guzman direct his OP?
jerry
ps–thanks to everyone for clearly getting the point i was making. i’m humbled that all of you are wise in this way.
Remember when Phil said “hey I want to nip this in the bud before it turns in to a 1000 comment forum about NOTHING AT ALL and then everyone gets frustrated”?
Yeah. Now you see why it would have been AWESOME to drop this 5 hours ago.
amy,
hyperbole is obviously lost on you…oh, well.
What sites do the people here generally critique?
And if you don’t know what I’m talking about then how can you take issue with labels that you so clearly say evince a demonic possession is in progress? Those labels rise from that discourse…Don’t go where you don’t know.
“Shriveling up and dying” is is hyperbole for “you having a melt down” about the apparent demonic/blasphemous rhetoric that is present in the sites critiqued here. If it applies to me, then it applies to them. Sounds like you might have to upgrade your broad brush size.
Seriously, Amy, if you’re here just to be a fly in the ointment then have at it and we can just ignore you,
OR you can be put in moderation (please God, please!)
BUT if you’re here because you actually want to defend the imams then you should start reading their material since that what the arguments here traffic in.
As far as Joe’s comment…I really don’t have a dog in that hunt and, honestly, neither do you…
As far as my calling Ingrid the High Priestess…Isn’t she the main female provider of knowledge about the true state of the church and people’s hearts within the sites in question? Could I possibly be referring to the now quiet Dwanya Litz? Not.
I think the tag, while snarky, fits. Handle it.
As for Phil saying “nip it in the bud”…I haven’t been tracking his comments in this thread…so if you want me to assess it, let me know. I really don’t want to, but if you think it will contribute to our current chat…
As for “Sheeeesh”….it came on the heels of Jerry’s answer not being good enough for you. So, yeah, when you’re being ridiculous, then you’ll hear about it. Would it have been better if I had just said: “Amy, you’re being ridiculous”? Personally, I think sheeesh really nails the full range of my thinking.
Honestly, as an egalitarian, it’s threads like these and people like you and Kimmy that make me want to rethink my position.
Seriously.
RE: Why is it garbage for me to question what Jerry said – because it does not make sense semantically, a question that any person involved in language and meaning could ask…
welcome to the ambiguities of language…
he answered as to his intent and you just keep on yammering away, nit picking and straining at gnats.
it’s hard for people not to think that you just want there to be a problem.
You, PB and this Kimmy are peas in a pod.
nc,
on this one, i think PB is left out. he perfectly gets what i am saying and what i am meaning.
jerry
NC that was terrible. I think you should apologize. You’re being pretty snarky, regardless of how amy is acting.
Joe
Jerry,
I’m speaking in general about their carping…
But I hear what you are saying.
Joe C,
There’s no intention on my part to offend you, Joe.
Amy, you do seem a bit obsessed on this issue, but NC I find comments like: “blah, blah, blah, so handle it“. Don’t really progress the discourse either and are snarky in and of themselves. Just say’n.
Can we all just move on?
Under “How we seek to be different” is this suggestion: defend your argument, not yourself
Where has Jerry or anyone else defended “his argument?”
Then I feel sorry for you and everyone else, Joe, that you can so readily accept answers that so obviously contradict what has been said, from “your own.”
How does “nip it in the bud” fit into the CRN.Info of treating others like you would like to be treated?
I didn’t clearly answer your question about my motivation. Nor have I answered several other questions. I’m one person; I really wanted to dialogue with one person, Jerry.
Have you considered the numerous questions/accusations that I HAVE answered? Do you think that I enjoy nc or the fact that hardly anyone calls him out? I never asked to get in a dialogue with everyone. My question was directed to Jerry.
As long as you are a writer here Joe it will be difficult for me to think that you have insight on “degrading and insulting,” unless you start taking apart regular commenter’s comments here in the same way that mine and others are taken apart.
You could make several casseroles, indeed a whole smorgasbord with unnecessary things said to folks who 1)disagree 2)ask questions that noone is willing to answer.
It would have been awesome for someone to explain why statements such as “Sarah’s son is in the military. If only Sarah’s son could be in the military” make perfect sense to all of you, but not to me.
It would also be awesome to understand why Jerry thanks people for getting his point when he should be concerned that people are ready to stand up for him even when he contradicts himself.
To everyone to whom it applies, Jerry. And what does that have to do with your not being able to explain why such an idea as “I read it. If only I would read it” makes perfect sense to you?
Amy,
Humility dictates that when we’ve experienced great wisdom that we wish to share, such as a terrific book or a moving sermon, we must still temper that desire to share with the reality that we ourselves must return, always, to the lesson itself.
I read the last comment to mean what he said, that Jerry wishes for the right people to read the article. And I think that means *anyone* who struggles with pride, or perhaps *anyone* who struggles with a harsh tongue.
But when he answered your question, and he stated that he also wrote that comment in a spirit of recognizing that *he* too struggles with those things, I believed him. That’s what humility dictates. In the zeal of sharing wisdom, we must remember to consider others better than ourselves.
That’s what I consider to be a charitable reading.
Is that difficult to understand? Can you grant him no grace? You’re repeated, tiresome, and unloving attempts at a game of “gotcha” are nothing short of tragic.
THREAD DIVERSION ALERT
Notre Dame is undefeated.
Discuss…
And “that game of gotcha” is what elicits my responses.
Again…you get vigorously called out for your carping and then you cry “martyr” saying I should be “called out”.
It’s rich. I don’t feel bad for you…
Whatever.
I’ll drop it out of respect to others here.
Yes ND is undefeated 1-0 BUT the Ducks are 2-0 even more undeafeted. What a Quack up!
The Ducks play Purdue this week. Who do you think will win??
MG,
Well said, well understood. Thank you for being perceptive and perfectly stating what I thought was rather obvious.
Amy,
You seem to be getting closer and closer to understanding. Now, just one more push and perhaps you will understand why i was talking about myself.
You see, since this seems so painfully difficult for you, my point was to, as someone said earlier, ‘nip this in the bud.’ By not directing my comments to anyone in particular and to everyone in general, i was trying to nip the conversation in the bud. I was removing the log from my own eye first and allowing others to do the same. It wasn’t my intent to make a statement about who should read it because that is not my job. It is my job to, in the words of the apostle, ‘examine myself.’
Do you understand yet, or have you never seen Star Wars and listened to Yoda speak?
jerry
PS–Amy, with all due respect, you did not want to ‘dialogue’ with me. You wanted me to state something that i was not saying. You wanted me to acquiesce to your carping and demanding. That’s not a request for dialogue. That is a request for me to put my head into your sleeper hold and tap out at the same time.
I think this conversation has, now, run its course.
You tell me amy… you tell me… you seem to not answer certain people’s questions… so really maybe it is… you seem to degrade the person in stating things like they are under control of a demon… yet still give not answer and get all upset when YOUR questions are not answered… Why should anyone answer you if all you do is not give answers and degrade others yourself.
Really you have moved into the absurd…
I am begining to think ignoring you was best after all…
iggy
Nope.
You’ve attempted to assist me in believing that you were referring to yourself WHEN you made the statement
I never asked what “spirit” you were writing in. I asked how “I have read the article. If only I could read the article . . . ” type of writing makes sense.
You’ve never answered that question.
So, as far as I’m concerned, I don’t have an answer from you.
You might consider that one EXPECTS to find innuendos about ODM’s on this site, and if you truly don’t mean to single out ODM’s then you need to make that clear. Context, you know.
Here is a previous comment from you with innuendo in it . . .
He is a Reformed poster child and yet goes out of his way to do the very things he claims to be opposed to. He’s sort of like…well, nevermind. (Under “Ken Silva”)
He’s sort of like . . . well nevermind. I suppose most readers here could have filled that blank in. And who would have condemned someone for filling in the blank? Wasn’t that your intention, that the blank would be filled in?
And, you’ll need to do more to convince me that I should respect your humility, attitude, and concern for not singling out, indeed for “nipping conversations in the bud,” when you write comments like this:
(also under “Ken Silva”)
And I really don’t believe there is anything left to say.
**yawn**
“And I really don’t believe there is anything left to say.”
That was true many, many comments ago.
Amy,
Sorry, but I am now a true believer you are in need of medication…
good grief… why do you insist on judging and condemning Jerry with such a sick spirit of persecution?
You are disregarding the biblical teaching or hoping the best.. you know in the list of 1 Cor 13 on love? You are rarely kind, gentle, and seem to keep a long list of wrongs and always think the worst of all people…
Man, and you stated someone else was under demonic control? You are so anti spiritual fruit it is like you despise it…
You need some serious help… please go get it.
iggy
I have a feeling that is not true at all… she will find a way to keep this going… someway some how.
iggy
Yes, this whole discussion was essentially over nothing. Nothing edifying at least. Sorry to say.
Joe,
I think you are wrong and your motive for being wrong is to make me right…
so there!
iggy
Aw whateva`Iggy.
Can we move on please…
Friends,
Now, if only we can get the right people to do just that. But we all must work together. I know, I’ll start; maybe there will be a domino effect.
Amen & Amen.
jerry
I must also make the point that USC is also undefeated.
And #1
PB,
Just have them beat Ohio State that’s all I want for Christmas.
Jerry,
I guess it’s time to give up. If straight forward answers are rejected, and the clarifications are rejected, I don’t think there is much else you can do.
Neil