The age old question?
Posted by Chris on Aug 28th, 2008
2008
Aug 28
If an ODM screams in the woods and nobody cares does it make a sound? (thanks to corey for the line)
How’s that? The driving force behind the emerging church is mysticism. The premise behind mysticism is man’s divinity. Believing that man is God ultimately leads to death because in that belief system, there is no need for a Savior. Man erroneously thinks he can save himself. Thus, he dies in his sin because he rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Tell Augustine, Aquinas, Bro Lawrence, St John of the Cross that they believed man was God…
What a crock! How much ignorance can one have in one paragraph? Even the Puritans practiced mysticism… Calvin wrote much on the Mystic Union we have with Christ… so toss him in the pile of people who believe man is God.
When will these people learn some church history… and gain some real bible understanding…?
iggy
August 28th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
I am sorry the Mystic Union is totally different than mysticism. Come one?! That is just as bad as what you decry.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
“If an ODM screams in the woods and nobody cares does it make a sound?”
Looks like you care…peace…
August 28th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
That paragraph is good commentary, about which I am only too familiar. (
) But where are the teachings that substantiate those contentions? That would help.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Kyle,
Calvin read the mystics… he quotes them… he gained the idea of the Mystic Union… which is what those other mystics I mentioned also wrote about in different ways.
St John of the Cross speaks of the “Dark night of the Soul” which Spurgeon stated as ” The soul’s dark night”…
What the issue is, is that Trailhousetales lumps all in the bad pile.
I recommend you go to http://www.covenantseminary.edu/ and download their Ancient & Medieval
Church History class and hear what “Calvinist” Dr David Calhoun states… he states that the Doctrines of Grace were hidden in the Christian Mystics. He states that Grace was almost lost except for the Christian mystics who taught it in their teachings.
He traces the mystics straight to Calvin who read them and gave Grace back to us.
I may not agree with all Calhoun states, but as I read the mystics I see grace everywhere in them.
So, do you think Augustine who influenced Calvin greatly, was a heretic? What he the same as the Hindu, or Buddhist as LIghthousetales implies?
I hope not as that cast most of our richest heritage into the rubbish pile and following suit, Calvin and Spurgeon should also be avoided… as well as Tozer… all who were influenced by the Christian mystics.
iggy
August 28th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I appreciate the unattributed quotation
!! That means I’ve officially arrived!!
August 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
fixed it corey!
August 28th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
ummm…no actually.
I might care if LHT actually bothered to research. Instead of them copying you, who copies Ingrid, who copies LHT, who copies you…and on and on it goes. Where will it stop…nobody knows!
Hey Ken quoting those you agree with and quoting yourself doesn’t make it a sound argument. R.E.S.E.A.R.C.H. sock it to me, sock it to me sock it to me!
August 28th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
The Lighhouse Trails folks are ignorant in many areas. I had writte this on one such subject:
Link to Article: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1105&c=1
Point 1: Calls Christians Little Christs
On page 120 of “Vintage Jesus”, Driscoll writes the following:
“To be a Christian is to be a “little Christ.” In fact, the name Christian was originally a term of mockery given to us by our enemies. But Jesus said that to be a Christian is to pick up our cross and die. Die to sin, die to pride, die to comfort, die to anything and everything that fails to glorify God alone as the object of our affection and the source of our joy. With great insight, Walter Wink has said that killing Jesus was like trying to destroy a dandelion seed-head by blowing on it. At the cross, what was intended as eradication was used by God for multiplication, and we pray that you would always be loyal to Jesus, our hero, and his revolution.”
First we must ask, what does it mean to be a Christian? To be a Christian is to be one set apart by God, having been regenerated from death to life by Jesus’ substitutionary atoning death on the cross. Immediately upon ones rebirth he/she is immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the process of Sanctification begins (1 Corinthians 6:11, 30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 10:10). The more we grow in our faith, the more Christ-like we become; the more we begin to “imitate” Him (Ephesians 5:1).
To be an imitator of Jesus is to be a mirror image of Him. The Miriam-Webster Dictionary defines imitate as:
Imitate; Latin “imitatus”
(1) To follow as a pattern, model, or example
(2) To appear or appear like (resemble)
(3) To produce a copy of (reproduce)
(4) Mimic, counterfeit (example: can imitate his fathers booming voice)
As Christians, this is exactly what Scripture teaches. We are to pattern and model ourselves after Jesus. We are to live as His examples here on earth.
Now to go a little further, the word Christian (from the Greek Kristianos) itself literally means “little Christ”, or “follower of Christ”. Jesus most assuredly commanded His disciples to take up their crosses and follow in His steps (Matthew 16:24). The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesian Church also gave that admonishment (Ephesians 5:1-2). We are to follow the patterns He set for us.
The commentary on Acts 11:26 from the Apologetics Study Bible (Holman Christian Standard Version) explains it this way:
“The Antioch believers were first called “Christians” (little Christs), probably labeled by Romans as those sufficiently recognizable by beliefs and actions in keeping with the Leader.”
In C.S. Lewis’ book “Mere Christianity”, of the Church he states that it:
“…exists for nothing else but to draw men into Christ, to make them little Christs. If they are not doing that, all the cathedrals, clergy, missions, sermons, even the Bible itself, are simply a waste of time. God became Man for no other purpose.”
Lewis also wrote similarly about the believer:
“We shall love the Father as Christ does and the Holy Ghost will arise in us. He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has – by what I call ‘good infection’. Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else.”
Furthermore, C.S. Lewis makes it clear that Christians are to “act like little Christs”. This should not be confused with “being little Christs”. “To Be” is to act like, and should not be confused with “being”.
What I see they (Lighthouse Trails) have done is confuse this with the Word-Faith (and Mormon) heresy that believers are “little gods”, that God has made us in the same class of being that He is Himself and that the believer is called “Christ” because that is who “we” are. We are not Christ, we are merely called to be imitators, a reflection of Him.
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For more on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith#.27Little_gods.27_Controversy
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Now back to the matter at hand. The great reformer Martin Luther wrote in “The Freedom of a Christian” (also called “The Treatise on Christian Liberty”):
“As our heavenly Father has in Christ freely come to our aid, we also ought freely to help our neighbor through our body and its works, and each one should become as it were a Christ to the other that we may be Christs to one another and Christ may be the same in all, that is, that we may be truly Christians…”
Here Luther rightly states that we ought to imitate Christ in such a way that we act according to the Spirit that resides in each of us as heirs with Christ. We are to show compassion, to help those in need, to share the gospel and the truth of God’s love to all. These are all characteristics that Jesus exemplified in His incarnation; we are called to be His examples here on earth.
The last example I wish to make is from a sermon from John MacArthur called “The Believer’s Privileges”, in which he teaches from 1 Peter:
“You also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house.” (1 Peter 2:5)
“It is from the living stone that we receive our spiritual privileges. Our first look into the kaleidoscope of spiritual privilege shows us the privilege of union with our Lord. We are said to be ‘living stones’”.
“We become pictures of Christ. Christians not only come to the living stone, but also become living stones themselves. He who comes to Christ becomes like Christ. That is why we are called Christians. We are miniatures of Christ – little Christs. It is our privilege to live in accordance with that honorable title. And just as Christ is a living stone, we are being built up as living stones. We have eternal life.”
As Christians we are conformed into the image of Christ. It is Jesus who abides in us as we abide in Him, as those reborn of the Spirit, we are one with Jesus. In being one with Him, we are to be a picture of Him, an exact replica in how we live as His followers.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
It’s quite apparent that the words “mystic” and “mysticism” are being freighted with meanings and claims the early church Fathers and Doctors never entertained nor agreed with.
But then again, what do you expect from a-historical/revisionist protestants?
Do any of our ODM siblings-in-the-faith ever see Song of Solomon as a text that demonstrates the relationship of God/Christ with the Church?
If so, you can thank Origen…
This is really an non-issue that is fueled by a serious lack of education and exposure to historical theology.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
(Dang, submit button)
My point about Origen is that such a reading of SOS was termed “mystical”…