And…?!?
Friends,
The author of Slice is on the prowl again…searching for someone to devour…and she found her victim. A church was donated $3 millions by someone who won the lottery. The author of Slice is unhappy that the church is praising God because this happened commenting: “See? Gambling does pay off!” The author of Slice did not tell her readers this part:
Crabbe said that only he and his wife, Jennifer, know the identity of the donor, whose only stipulation was anonymity. The donor bought the $10 ticket in Middle Island on July 19 and told Crabbe the same day. The congregation’s 12-member leadership board spent the next week deciding what to do.
Eventually, they decided, “we’re giving that whole first year away,” said Melissa Joles, of the church planning team.
The bulk of the first-year money, $102,225 after taxes, would go to Love’, a New Haven-based charity that looks to end child sex trafficking. The Lighthouse Mission in Patchogue, which feeds the poor, and Prodigal House in Port Jefferson Station, a halfway home for boys, will also get donations. After that, the church has promised to tithe at least 20 percent of the earnings and use the rest for a bigger meeting place.
Isn’t it strange that the author of Slice would complain about this? Those heretics!! I am simply floored at the half-truth reporting by SOL. To the author of Slice: When are you going to get it? When will you stop telling half-truths? When will you stop criticizing everything you see just because you can? I am almost persuaded that the author of Slice posted this in jest. One can only hope.
Soli Deo Gloria!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
pffft, total jealousy and perhaps a bit of a misunderstanding of the whole concept of “gambling” NOT being a sin in itself….
Ingrid, if you read this, could you please provide why you are bothered by this? If you are not, then at least know that your words seem to imply that you are disapproving of this, which would present you as a bitter, jealous person.
-Aaron
August 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Yeah but the lotto and gambling is a lot different than that. Basically lotto is stealing money from those who can least afford to lose it for your own personal gain. It is no way to show love towards your neighbor.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
How is lotto stealing money? A bunch of people all pitch in a few bucks for the chance to win, no one wins, more people pitch in, and so on. No one is actually having their money forcibly removed from them. They play the game willingly of their own accord.
Addictions, however, are another story. It is a love and desperate desire for money that makes people continue to throw money at their devil in hopes of being satisfied.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Kyle - you can be fundamentally against gambling and still humbly accept a gift like that, especially when you approach it with the carefulness as did that church.
“I am simply floored at the half-truth reporting by SOL.”
Jerry - you gotta get out more!!
Some of these posts must be read with an ear toward pitiful humor. When the teletype reaches your upper room with a story like this you just have to publish it as evidence of the continuing apostacy. I await a post on the unrighteousness of stealing from the Egyptians before you run away - kinda like a pre-wilderness lottery!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Christians should never support anything that cause people to be bad stewards of money. Gambling is stealing becuase people use there money unwisely for selfish gain. Until recently that is the way christians viewed any form of gambling. Once bingo was accepted within the church gambling exploded into our culture as a legal form of entertainment. It is also the state stealing money. All forms of legal gambling have to pay out a certain percentage because the game is always rigid so the house wins. Christian should decry this for of stealthy theft.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
That means we should glady accept an form of money? No end never justify the means.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
“That means we should glady accept an form of money?”
Ask no questions for conscience sake!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Unless of course it was ill gotten business ventures, or insurance money from widows, or some scam offering from the pulpit, or money to replace the Jones memorial carpet, or…the list could go on!
The church is not short on being bad stewards of money nor is it short on accepting money from all comers. The difference between this church and others is that they prayed about it, talked it over, then decide to bless others with it. I’ll take that any day of the week over the fundraisers to get stained glass windows!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
So becasue some else sins it exuces yours? that is the worst christian argument I have ever heard.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Should we not support buffets because they cause some to be gluttonous?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Let me clarify…
1) Gambling isn’t sin
2) There are plenty of churches that do stupid sinful things that Ingrid has never posted about. Why? Because they line up with her ideology, not her theology.
3) I’ve heard worse Christian arguments. They usually start “The bible says…”
4) You made the statement “we should never support anything that causes people to be bad stewards”…Well refer to my list!
5) Where do you see that this church sinned?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
1.. gambling is a sin
2. I could carless about Ingrid
3. The bible says is always a great way to start anything because it is the foundation of our faith. Then you can check and see if that agrument is true to the bible or not
4. Don’t get point 4
5. They accepted money from illgotten gains. Just because they are going to do good things with the money still does not mean it was right to accept the money.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I think buffets are a sign of the times. Selfish generation, you can go to the OCB and eat literal like a king or emperor of the past. Everyone always decried the excess of the kings/emperors why not also of the common people.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Can we as a church allow fat people to teach? Isn’t that condoning gluttony and present an obvious sin to our children? Gluttony is a sin and accepting the spoils from a glotton is being partaker of their caloric deeds!
August 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Kyle,
Besides saying that Gambling is causing ppl to be a bad steward of their finances do you have any Biblical support for your claim that gambling is a sin? Not gambling in excess but gambling in and of itself?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I consider all of the things in my list as being a bad steward (receiving and spending) but nobody is decrying those things.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
So did the Israelites! And Calvin!
August 28th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
If it’s good enough for Calvin… then it’s…. ahhh… oh wait, I’m not a Calvinist…. drat!
August 28th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
So do you eat shell fish? Clothers woven from 2 different cloths?
Or how about the abuses committed throughout history because “The bible says”?
So gambling/ill gotten gain “Where in the bible”? Hint: I’ll accept charging interest. But then we would have to look at bank loans to churches as sinful.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
How about $2000.00 a head Christian cruises, are they bad stewards? (MacArthur) How about national “Shepherds Conferences” where there are hundeds of thousands of dollars spent on hotel rooms, plane fares, CDs, food, and all the while they could iPod the messages so the same people could just listen to them.
Take the money they normally would spend on the conference and help the poor people who buy lottery tickets. Kyle - sin is a very tricky thing, it’s like fly paper!
BTW - two yaers ago the main speaker at the MacArthur Conference gave a several part sermon on “Why I am a Calvinist”. No one had to go, just fax a large “Amen” and place it on a seat!
That’s like spending a ton of money so you can hear someone preach “Why I am Right”.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Proverbs 16: 33. The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
So is God in control of all things… even the toss of dice or other forms of gambling?
Just a thought…
iggy
August 28th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
What is gambling based on. Would anyone gamble is money was not involved.
Thou shalt not covet
Ephesians 5:5: “For this ye know, that no … covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of God and of Christ.”
Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15)
I Timothy 6:9-10: “But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
“But godliness with contentment is great gain…. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.”
Gambling is based on the principle that people are greedy and therefore any easy way to get there money is to dangle a golden carrot in front of them.
There is no verse that states gambling is a sin, but the principle behind gambling is sinful and ungodly. It is the opposite of christianty.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I will be holding a Conference here in Billings. It will cost $200 bucks not counting food or hotel or travel. I will be the main speak… my topic… as inspired by Rick Frueh will be, “Why I am Right.” Only those that agree with me should attend, but bring those that might be inclined to agree with me.
The money should be sent directly to me, and fax in your “Amens”.
I love it Rick, wanna be my guest speaker? Your topic can be “iggy is Right, but then so am I.”
We can have PB come and speak on “Don’t confuse me with the facts.”
All we need is a guitar, tambourine and a stand up bass and we can take this one on the road! LOL!
iggy
August 28th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Cris your arugement are like that of Dawkins. just plain stupid! Sorry for the harshness but when you start commenting on shell fish ect.. It seems like you have never read the NT.
I do not see much wrong with conferneces ect..Sometimes they can go overboard and it is sinful. So are you saying we should only listen and hear things that we disagree with? Let us look and Mary and Martha. Who did the good work? The one serving or the one learning?
38Now as they went on their way, Jesus entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. 39And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, 42but one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.”
August 28th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
chris,
The closest thing I can think of is when Abram refused payment from the Kings of Sodom and Gomorrah for helping them. He did not want anyone to say he did it for money, he wanted God to get the glory…
iggy
August 28th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Joe, Does something need to be blatantly condemned in scripture for it to be bad for Christians?
Gambling is unwise. What does scripture say about wisdom?
I appreciate that the church leadership took the time to discuss the issue. I’m not sure what I would do. I do teach that gambling is wrong. It is a detriment to society. I live in a town of 1,000 that has a casino, so this is very relevant and practical for me. I still am not sure about a lot of issues dealing with the gambling that is already there. We have members who are employed at the casino, we have people in our community who we are trying to reach who work at the casino. It’s the only restaruant in town. I wish it weren’t here. We would be better off without it. But it is here.
There is much about gambling that is damaging that has been expressed by wiser men than me, and I’ll be happy to link some. It is foolish to think that gambling is just “ok” though.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Rick, I happen to think those Christian cruises are poor stewardship. I also happen to think a lot of Holy Land tours are as well.
Chris, your arguments in #19 provide no support because they aren’t actually arguments.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Peruse some of the articles/thoughts here: http://seldomwrong.blogspot.com/search?q=gambling
The gentleman who writes the blog is one of the smartest and most down to earth Christians I know.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Kyle,
What if someone gambles for $50 and they see it as entertainment. How is that different than dropping 50 on dinner or a game or a book or a video game? I don’t really think it is.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
1)Gambling is no more a sin or a waste of money than any other form of entertainment (spending $ on movies, Disneyland, etc). ADDICTION to gambling is where it gets unbiblical, just like addiction to anything else.
2) The article at Slice is nothing new. The surprised tone of this article surprises me.
3)
Careful. Gentle words turn away wrath . . . It’s possible to pose an argument without name-calling, whether the name is true or not. Let God be the judge of who is and who isn’t a heretic.
Just some thoughts.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
You know, if the church had just kept silent on the matter, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Merry,
I assure you ‘those heretics’ was pure tongue-in-cheek! I think what they are doing is wonderful.
One time in the church I serve, we were asking for prayer requests and praises. One of the older ladies stood up, a woman not known for being shy or quiet, and told the story of how she had been concerned about paying some tax bill she had.
She said that she had gone on some senior citizens…uh…Vegas style trip and won some money. She used the money to pay the taxes. I remember the shocked and horrified looks on the faces of the elect and righteous that day.
Sort of reminds me of the time Peter had some tax money due and Jesus, rather than going out a working for a day in the vineyards to earn a day’s wage, instead told Peter to go fishing. There Peter would catch a fish with two coins in its mouth that he would use to pay the taxes for himself and Jesus. Ill-gotten gains?
jerry
August 28th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Sandman,
I wrote a parable about that very point not too long ago. It’s still here somewhere in the archives.
jerry
August 28th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I don’t know if I was trying to argue? Maybe…I feel in a surly mood this afternoon.
I don’t take it has harsh. I only interjected those because those are the arguments that usually come up when discussing “sins”. The bible can be twisted and has been twisted to approve of or disapprove of many thing throughout history.
Lest I be confused with a heretic…I only put a whole lot of stock in conviction by the Holy Spirit. Legalism really isn’t my cup of tea. And the parsing of scripture to prove a point does little to make Christ appealing to me.
So Gambling as a sin…scripturally proof? Or as a counter argument I’ll take a defense for the excesses and indulgences of the modern church.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Sandman,
Then again, the church couldn’t keep silent because they saw this as an answer to prayer. They didn’t ask for ‘gambling money.’ They had asked the Lord to provide and he did. Thus, they did the only responsible and possible thing: They praised God.
The author of Slice would have us take away praise that belongs to God because she doesn’t like where the money came from.
Shame on her.
jerry
August 28th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Maybe the gambling money was a test sent by God to see if they would use the profits of theives for themselves in the name of good and God. Hmmmmm…???
August 28th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
For the record I think State Lotteries, Casinos, and Vegas nights do take advantage of people. Its no different than predatory lending…Check Cashing places, Rent a Centers, and so on…they all play on the hopes of the downtrodden. And that is sad.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Chris,
To your point about the excesses of the church…In a recent edition of the Zondervan Church Source catalogue there is an advertisement for a new book by Rob Bell and Don Golden called Jesus Wants to Save Christians.
Now, I’m not particularly a fan of Mr Bell and I don’t know Mr Golden and I have never watched a single nooma video or read a single sentence of Bell’s previous writing; however, the blurb for the book caught my attention has caused me to throw caution to the wind and eagerly anticipate the arrival of this book in September 2008. Here’s the blurb:
That blurb alone makes me want to read this book. Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile.
That blurb says a lot about the excesses of the church. The OP contains a link to a story about a church that has been blessed with a lot of money. What’s the first thing they think to do? Give it away. That’s the part of the story that should have been reported by SOL.
jerry
August 28th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
I think everyone needs to go re-read Jesus’ parable about the shrewd manager.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
“Maybe the gambling money was a test sent by God to see if they would use the profits of theives for themselves in the name of good and God. Hmmmmm…???”
Oh, so God tempts? I’m sure you don’t mean that, Kyle. God sends porn to see if they’ll watch it?
August 28th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Kyle,
from what you are arguing, any desire or want of money is wrong. Your verses and usage of them point people to desiring poverty, which is not biblical. We are to be joyous even in poverty, but not to seek after it. A person can want money, desire money, but the matter lies is why. Do they want it so that they can pay their bills, send their kids to college, pay for food, bless others who need money, etc. Or do they want it simply to have it and build larger barns and pretend that it will all be taken with them when they die?
As Joe M and Merry said, gambling is a form of entertainment. Granted, yes, it can be a very slippery and dangerous slope into addiction, but it still remains entertainment. It simply falls into the same category as alcohol, physical appearance or fitness, sex, food, and music. It has a strong potential to be enjoyable and good when done correctly, but there is also a strong potential to be abused. Just because it can be abused does not mean that it should be disapproved or rejected.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Isn’t lotto a game of luck, chance? what are the odds?
Does God say ” Good Luck ” ?
August 28th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
The bible says God tests us.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
This is simply not true. Although one may be entertained by gambling, at the heart of the matter gambling is benefit to a few by the loss of the many. When you win at gambling it is because many others have lost. Movies, Disneyland, etc. are selling a product and are not comparable at all. When one attends a movie for example, they are remunerating the producer for the work they have done. It is a fair trade of goods in the market place, (hopefully) a win/win situation where the worker is rewarded for his work and the buyer receives the benefit (i.e. is entertained). This is not the case with gambling, where the odds are stacked in the favor of the gambling provider and the funds paid out (if any) are obtained at the loss of many other players. It is a lose/win situation. The principals of work and wages were established by God where hopefully the buyer and seller receive mutual benefit. Gambling is the opposite of this principle.
Although there is no commandment: “thou shalt not gamble”, there are a myriad of Scriptures dealing with work, commerce and justice. Gambling, with its root of personal gain at the expense of others, cannot logically said to be ordained or blessed by God. It is the exact opposite of agape-love and there is nothing God-honoring about it.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Amen John!
August 28th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Aaron, you may want to rethink the “good” part.
Winner: “Man it was so good of God to let me win the lottery and only a million people or so had to loose their money (mostly the poor people anyway) so I could be blessed. Yay God ! Thank you!!!”
August 28th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
“P.S. God . . . I hope all those losers were entertained. I sure was. Thanks again!”
August 28th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
God doesn’t test us with sin, and you have advocated gambling and its rewards as sin. Your position is duplicitous, Kyle.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
God tests us. He tested Abraham to kill his son. Just look up test in the bible everytiem it is used. But I got to go see yall later
August 28th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Gambling is unwise. Certain forms are worse than others, but the lottery is supposed to help with funds for education. It is like a raffle.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Ironically, the OP wasn’t even about whether gambling is a sin or not. Gambling is only incidental to the bigger point that I am trying to make which is: What is a valid reason or excuse to praise God. SOL’s criticism seems to be that this is not a good reason to praise God.
jerry
August 28th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Jerry, ha ha, it wasn’t really clear who you were referromg to as heretics, the ODMs or the people who won the lottery. I’ll admit I’m still a little confused . . .
John, I see gambling just like any other game . . . in every game the winner benefits from the loss of everyone else . . . except for the difference that the players put money in at their own risk. Good gamblers should know this and only use what money they have budgeted specifically for the game. Sadly, a lot of people don’t do this and it can become a monster for many people. I should have said gambling should be for entertainment only.
. . . That’s true about a ton of entertainment; I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that’s true of most entertainment . . . it could be anything from a raunchy movie to perhaps wasting time and money at an amusement park . . . do most people really think about honoring God when they go out to amuse themselves?
I agree with you completely though, that gambling is definately a lot more risky and a lot less innocent than Disneyland, and not something I’d personally get into.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
So, my nephew is selling raffle tickets for a buck. If you win, you get season tickets to the high school football games with a reserved seat. Proceeds go to help the sports team. Am I sinning for giving my nephew a buck? This is technically no different that the lotto (in CA 30% of proceeds go to the school system)
August 28th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Sexual sin is unwise. Certain forms are worse that others, but taxes in Reno from legal prostitution are supposed to help with funds for education.
Rick I like this line of reasoning. Think of the possibilities!
August 28th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
^The “referromg” is supposed to be “referring” . . . omg my fingers were on the wrong keys!!
August 28th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Hey guys, I don’t want to be unreasonable — “moderation in everything” is my motto. There are some gray areas in this discussion. A raffle/lottery is border line. A raffle for sure is more of a donation for a cause vs. pure gambling. If people aren’t behind the cause or the person selling the raffle they are probably not going to participate. Also, no one loses in a raffle like the ones posited above, i.e., the money goes for a cause and is a defacto donation. Gambling is different.
Lotteries are a little more border line/problematic. First off, citizens should provide for the needs of their community through taxes and lotteries should not be necessary. Finally, everyone is big on **facts** and research on this site and the research shows that the majority of people who play the lottery can least afford it so it ends up basically being another tax on the poor.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
“Sexual sin is unwise. Certain forms are worse that others, but taxes in Reno from legal prostitution are supposed to help with funds for education.”
Prostitution is a little worse than playing the lottery. Going 27 mph in a 25 zone is sin, but going 70 in a 25 is worse.
I do not play the lottery, but I do not get all hysterical about those that do. And if someone desires to donate 3 million to the church, I receive it as long as the person remains anonymous and they realize it buys no favor with God.
BTW - what were the powerball numbers tonight?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Hey, let each one be convinced in his heart and remember that everything not done from faith is sin and don’t cause a weaker brother to stumble and what you do is not my business (most of the time).
Peace.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Not even when certain football teams loose?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
No, I get violent when that happens. I’m still lucky to be a free man after last year. Two weeks and our season begins. I have my rosary beads ready!!
August 28th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Now, if only Charlie can figure out a way to free up his offensive offense.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Getting back to the OP, kinda. I know it’s too late now that the horse is out of the barn, had I been involved I wouldn’t have made it know to anyone. Here’s why…
I’m a firm believer in not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing. If you haven’t done this, try it.
What a joy it is to see the reaction by someone that has received a gift anonymously. To see someone praise God for a envelope stuffed with cash they needed so desperately. I makes ya just a bit warm and fuzzy.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Here’s the catch, Scotty. I need to know where that money came from, and if it came from an unapproved source, I need to publicly reject it so everyone can see how righteous I am.
And if someone else in another part of the country takes it, I cannot just quietly disagree, perhaps mentioning to my inner circle, oh no, I need to mock it and publish it on my blog so everyone can see how righteous I happen to be.
Anyone who feels even the slightest bit of self righteousness about not participating in the lottery, might as well play it because your sin is greater than those that do.
Only sinful man could take the internet and use it to climb heights of self righteousness that wasn’t available to be made so public before.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Your right, Rick, what was I thinking all these years. I stand humbled before your great wisdom.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:27 am
This is just one of those posts that just sucks the oxygen out of the room. Not this thread, but the one it’s referring to.
It also makes me think of a hungry apostle refusing to eat unclean animals after being told to kill and eat.
I wonder if this means churches should scrutinize all those willing to make tithes and offerings to make sure the money reaches a level of holiness by being X degrees of separation from anything worldly.
The people gave the money to the church to do something good with it, and I suppose there are those who would be happier that the hungry aren’t being fed.
Go figure.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Why should the Devil have all the good money?
August 29th, 2008 at 9:22 am
ahh Carmen rocked.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Phil,
I need you to check your facebok Wall ASAP
August 29th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Joe,
I just sent you a message…
August 29th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Just an observation about this post. Jerry stated: “The author of Slice did not tell her readers this part: Crabbe said that only he and his wife, Jennifer, know the identity of the donor, …Those heretics!!… I am simply floored at the half-truth reporting by SOL.”
The Slice post DID provide a link to the story Jerry quoted. I ‘m neither defending or agreeing (publicly) with the Slice post, but I think crying “heretic” simply because they didn’t quote the entire article is a little rough.
Rick: Tonight’s Powerball numbers– 66-66-66-66-66
August 29th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
You may have already heard this one, but it’s still funny.
Then there’s the one where the farmer put his mule up for sale and a fellow showed up the next day, who offered him the full asking price of $400 on the spot. The farmer wanted the buyer to bring the money when he came back to load the mule but the buyer insisted and gave him the cash, promising to return the next day. The next morning, the buyer showed up with truck and trailer. The farmer came out of the house red-faced and told the second man that the mule had died overnight. Even worse, he had gone into town the night before and spent all of the $400 on whiskey, women and wild times.
The buyer didn’t even blink and told the farmer to help him load the dead mule. The farmer was dumbstruck but did as asked and soon the man left with the dead animal. A few weeks later, the farmer saw the man in town and what had happened. The reply was that he had sold the dead mule in a lottery at a dollar a ticket and made $500. The farmer said, “Boy, you must have made a bunch of people mad, selling a dead mule.” The other said, “No, I only made one guy mad - and I already done gave him a full refund”…
August 29th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Keith,
Jerry is not calling Slice “heretics”. He is doing a summarized and precise conclusion in what Slice was saying…. simply the purpose they are driven by is to say, “Those heretics!” about others.
Jerry is just pointing out that the author only points to it with that attitude. He is not saying Slice people are heretics…
I agree with him… the representation of the article they linked to has an attitude that is of disgust…
iggy
August 29th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Iggy:
Jerry DID state that “author of Slice did not tell her readers this part…” I was just pointing out that although Ingrid (I assume) didn’t post the whole article, she did provide adequate “documentation” that did indeed tell the whole story, so to speak.
He also stated (exact quote from his post): “Isn’t it strange that the author of Slice would complain about this? Those heretics!!” Sounds like he called them heretics to me. (I’ve been called worse, but not by Jerry) Maybe I just don’t understand what either of you are saying.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I just won 200 million dollars on Powerball. I am willing to share it with anyone who will renounce Calvinism and join my fellowship.
Keith??
August 29th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Keith,
I guess it is in how one reads it. I see that he is acting like Ingrid for a moment… but could be wrong.
Yet, again, there was a broader story than some church who allows gambling which is how I would have taken the post itself.
I just see no need to mock a church who had to make a choice…. and seemed to use the money for good, though Satan meant it for evil… hmmm sounds almost biblical that one.
iggy
August 29th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Rick: “Renounce Calvinism?!” May it never be!
Iggy: Fair enough.
Now, my question is: if the donors wished to remain anonymous, why did the church/congregation feel it necessary to publicize the gift? Why not just accept the money and be quiet? Just wondering.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
I was not referring to sol as a heretic. Iggy is right and I also pointed that out above to merry.
August 30th, 2008 at 1:46 am
Keith,
I think that if a church in your community comes into a lot of money… there will be someone that will notice… like the banker, charities and the realtor agents… it may not have been meant originally for the public, yet is a church is part of the community, why not? What difference does it make? They are not promoting gambling; they received a huge donation and are using it for good.
Now people gossip… (as in the SoL post) and say things that may or may not be true… so if a church received a huge donation why not just nip that in the bud and just say how you got the money? At least it is not hidden, which to me if that got out I can see the headlines at SoL…
“Church hides that they received gambling money.”
So at least this way, they are up front about it and not giving the appearance of condoning or hiding or whatever else they could be accused of.
iggy
August 30th, 2008 at 2:52 am
Bottom line……
Gambling wrong or right, Half a Slice showcased half the truth……….again!
Shame on them. But it’s never bothered them before.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Keith,
I have the same issue as seen in #31.
I appreciate and value honesty, but I don’t need to know everything.
Sure, churches are part of the community, but do they need to reveal every aspect of their inner workings to the world? Don’t really see the point in that, given the disdain the world at large has for the church.
On the one hand, Iggy asks a sensible question:
I think we’ll have gossip no matter what you do, so why not just honor the original commitment? Satisfying somone’s appetite in that respect does nothing to help anyone. In fact, it may tend to embolden people to presume they a right to demand answers about things that don’t concern them.
Wanting to know more than we need or have a right to, has been getting us in trouble since Gen. 3.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Sandman,
You know, you are right. If SOL had never reported this story, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I agree: “Wanting to know more than we need or have a right to, has been getting us in trouble since Gen. 3.” I agree. Perhaps it is time for SOL to stop giving us so much gossip.
jerry
August 31st, 2008 at 2:51 pm
“Perhaps it is time for SOL to stop giving us so much
gossipdiscernment.”August 31st, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Perhaps so, Jerry. I agree with Ingrid on a number of things, and can at least try to understand her perspective where I don’t agree, but her tone works against her many cases.
I think we all need to be careful not to fall into the trap of doing the devil’s work for him.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
Sandman,
Get this…. I agree with Ingrid on a number of topics also, yet, I go not agree with the judgement and condemnation…
Ever wonder how I can be critical of PDL and still enjoy people who read and have had their lives changed by RW’s book? Ever wonder how I can like Rick Frueh? LOL! Ever wonder how I think about Calvinism and still really like and have great friends who are Calvinist… and with these I get along with for the most part if not get along great with?
The difference is that these are my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ and I love them. I see them in the eyes of grace and they see me that way also.
Now, I see Ingrid, Ken and the other cast of characters as my brothers and sisters in Christ… I do not condemn them and judge them… I pray for them and am concerned they may not have a full understanding of the Grace of God.
My greatest concern is that they can stop judging people by the outside of the cup and know that Jesus can be cleaning the inside even if they cannot see it…
It is interesting Ingrid states to me she has trouble “not hating” me… Ken calls me his “Nemesis” and all the while I call them nothing less than my fellow siblings in Christ… I see them saved by grace through faith…
iggy
September 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Sandman:
I’ve been off the internet for a couple of days. I apologize, I didn’t see your comment #31 before. I agree.
I agree that people will gossip, but as you say/imply they are not entitled to know everything. I would have probably just handled the situation by saying the church had received a large gift from a donor that wished to remain anonymous. Don’t even have to mentino that the donor was a member, etc.
We’re not going to please everybody on this one, I suppose.