Logic? Logic? We dont’ need no stinking Logic!
It has frustrated many of the authors on this site for quite some time how some people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts including but not limited to the flow of logic, logical fallacies, and literary devices (i.e. simile, metaphor, irony, etc.). Now, to be fair, most of us missunderstand, or completely miss, the use of some of these some of the time. Also to be fair, not all of us are as good at utilizing some of the terms and/or actually using the techniques as others.
I have a college education. I’m also in graduate school. When I’ve had good sleep and healthy food, I’m a fair writer, but I often have to look up terms and think through many of the things listed above. When classes start again this fall, I’m sure I’ll be on Wikepedia every other hour looking up something I learned years ago (or never caught onto when I should have). There may be times when all of us feel superior to another because they don’t understand what to us seems so obvious. We do need to watch out for such times. But most of the time, the authors here do not talk about and use the terms of logic and literary devices to degrade others.
Let us look for the best in each other and seek to better understand what those who disagree with us are saying.
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Here’s some words of encouragement for you, Christian. With age, it’s only going to get worse!
If your lucky, when you get my age, you’re glad when you’re out in public and your fly isn’t down……how’s that for irony???
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:42 pm
WOW!!! I beat Rick!!!
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Thanks for the encouragement?
I don’t see the irony in your comment.
Also, I’m not so sure how much worse I can get. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, I haven’t slept well at night in months, I think I might have developed a food or other bad allergy, and I have been caught in public with my fly down… numerous times. Praise God I haven’t preached that way yet.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Also, I’m sure there are times each of us would like to beat Rick…
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I have nothing of substance to say, but I, too, wanted to beat Rick.
And I did it with my fly down and a booger dangling from my nose.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
I feel your pain,brother! I haven’t had a pain free day since my mishap in Vietnam. As far as sleeping a whole night? What’s that??
It has a way of keeping us humble doesn’t it!
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 pm
A lot of people would like to beat me at something…anything. And so as a humble believer I sometimes slow down and let someone else feel the thrill of victory instead of the agony of defeat, even if it is just a mirage.
PS - Just so you know, I had a comment way before Scotty, I just didn’t press submit! I am 56 years old and I take 7 different medications, none of which are crack cocaine…yet.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Rick, I didn’t mean I wanted to beat you at anything…
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
That’s wisdom, Christian. As far as a real beating, I refer you to my oldest son who not only is a monster, he has a screw loose as well!
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Why haven’t any of you informed me of my booger? Some friends you are….
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:35 pm
I also should have said in the post that I think we all need to be more responsible in doing the work to understand the terms we use.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Boy I’m tired. The above should read “I also should have said in the post that I think we all need to be more responsible in doing the work to understand the terms that we and others use when commenting.”
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 pm
I refer you to my oldest son who not only is a monster, he has a screw loose as well!
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I’m allergic to spinach.
August 24th, 2008 at 1:13 am
After I’ve looked up the words and terms on wikipedia, wrote my comment, copied and pasted it to Word to check spelling and grammar, the thread has moved on by the time I hit submit and I look like a total fool. SIGH!
August 24th, 2008 at 2:44 am
Let us look for the best in each other and seek to better understand what those who disagree with us are saying.
I feel much better now!
August 24th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Christian, I hope you’re not citing Wikipediea as a source on your research papers, now.
As for not sleeping well, I know what y’all mean. I’m starting college in a few days, and I’m pretty scared right now!
August 24th, 2008 at 2:49 am
I love how I can’t even spell “Wikipedia” right. And I’m going to be an English major . . . who am I kidding?
August 24th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Merry, you really shouldn’t begin a sentence with a conjunction. But you probably already knew that.
August 24th, 2008 at 9:26 am
If only this wee true at CRN.info…..Please show us an example. The only guys that do this right 1/2 the time are Eugene Roberts and Rick Freuh. I take you to the OP Ken Silva as a prime example of the character assassination that happens when we don’t understand an OP.
August 24th, 2008 at 9:29 am
I meant to post a link!
when we don’t understand an OP
August 24th, 2008 at 9:51 am
If a pastor screeches in the forest and nobody comments on his new blog, does he actually make a noise?
August 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
PB - what does your link have to do with the OP (original post) above?
August 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Chris L
The fact that no one on this site has the right to demand fair reading of anything after the example of the thread that is posted on my OP. We should read fair, but we don’t. And the biases on this site are quite obvious.
I am off to church to preach about the simplicity of the Gospel. God Bless yall this AM
August 24th, 2008 at 10:38 am
John,
You should avoid using phrases you obviously don’t understand
August 24th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Oh John
You poor angry man.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Christian,
FYI, things like truth, logic, reason, proper argumentation, thought, and a desire for the good/right are often NOT what motivates people. If you don’t learn that difficult lesson now, it will be a painful lesson to learn later.
More often than not, people are actually motivated and moved to a certain place by their own personal agenda designed to do any one of the following:
1. “fill in the blanks” so to speak in their lives by taking up a certain cause;
2. argue about what makes them “feel” right about themselves and others;
3. make the world look a certain way so it’s more comfortable for them (instead of seeing it for how it really is);
4. protect them from difficult truths about themselves or others;
5. shield them from feeling ignorant or feeling unable to keep up intellectually;
6. give them a sense of purpose, meaning, and impact on the world, when in reality, deep down, they see their lives as fairly uneventful;
7. express bitterness, anger, hate, resentment, envy, and jealousy in a way that is masked by the scriptures they cite, which seem to justify their actions…….
In other words, the issues dealt with here are usually not a matter of people who “can’t seem to grasp certain concepts including but not limited to the flow of logic, logical fallacies, and literary devices.”
Forget that. The truth, imho, is that you’re seeing an emotional/psychological problem in the discussions here from those who appear unable to reason or think logically. And that is a lesson you get from real life — not a university class.
So don’t worry too much about all those test questions (beyond knowing what you need to know in order to pass). Real life is a lot different — as different as Band of Brothers video game is from the battles it features.
R. Abanes
August 24th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Fixed it.
August 24th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
This morning, for some reason known only to God, I was overwhelmed by a sense of grace. Grace, that which cannot be added to or subtracted from, the gift from He who had every right to withold it all. How many times do we trample upon the beauty that is God’s grace? How often to we use it as a springboard for law? How often do we forget who we are without it?
I am immobolized by God’s grace to me, and all I had to do one night in March of 1975 was to believe on Jesus, the Incarnate Fountainhead of all grace. I knew nothing of repentance, I knew nothing of systematic theology, I knew nothing of Lordship salvation, in fact, I knew nothing. It was the Holy Spirit who opened my understanding to the Risen Christ, and an astounding and violent sinner became like a little child and I was suddenly His, by grace.
33 years later I still have nothing, I still know nothing, but that which has been given to me by His grace. I use great and swelling words, and I use some literary verbiage to project the falsehood that I know something and that I am somebody, but pull back the facade and here I stand in a pile of my own dung, but still His by grace.
Jesus was filled with grace and truth, and grace IS truth and truth IS grace. It is true that in the way the body of Christ has been divided, I do not belong at this blog. I have tried to leave several times, but somehow God has shown me that I receive more than I can give. And in the end I can learn more about grace from the men and women with whom I do not always see eye to eye than I can in an amen chamber.
But what happens if I compromise? What happens if do not stand as I should? What happens? Grace happens. I would love to give some flowery and poetic definition of God’s grace, but the majestic beauty of such a gift is usually defined by experience more deeply than Webster could ever imagine.
Today I am enraptured by His grace, and I pray it continues to change me.
August 24th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
There isn’t a word that captures the depths of irony PB seems to enjoy.
Yes…Ken Silva…poor guy…a “ministry” of attacking Christians and when people don’t lay down for it they’re the bad guys.
Seriously, PB…
My perennial question for you:
How does it feel to be a man-centered sycophant?
August 24th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
At least you were kind of generous to Eugene and Rick…
I mean, if only they would submit to the absolute truth then they would be just like you and then they’d be perfect.
sheesh.
Talk about a plain refusal to listen.
Then again, it keeps things simple.
newsflash: simple doesn’t necessarily mean “right”.
and please spare me any retorts that imply I like to complicate things, because that’s not what I’m saying.
August 24th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Wow…and all this time I thought it was really complicated. Believe on me, attend the right church, sing the right songs, wear the right clothing, listen to the right music, don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t. Then after that get right with Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, Finney, Sproul, etc…Then after that you can experience the Grace of Christ. Simple!
August 24th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
You didn’t write the OP - Christian did… As for the cut & paste job on your site (which how you call that the OP escapes me) you didn’t include that I DID do something about it - see comment #142, because the discussion had degenerated on both (all?) sides of the issue.
Can you clear up a bit of confusion as to why you keep referring to “my [your] OP”? I don’t see it referenced anywhere in the OP of this thread, or the ensuing comments…
August 24th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
PB -
I love how the title of the layout for your new blog (listed at the bottom) is “contempt”.
That pretty much says it all.
August 24th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
CRN -
CRNinfo and Analysis -
CRNinfo and Analysis 2 -
CRNinfo and Analysis analysis -
AntiCRNinfo and Analysis -
ConsummateCRNinfo and Analysis -
OrthodoxCRNinfo and Analysis -
ClownCRNinfo and Analysis -
ReformedCRNinfo and Analysis -
THE CHRISTIAN BLOG UNABRIDGED - assessing everyone and giving inerrant perspectives on every theological camp complete with gentle yet caustic, gracious yet judgmental, loving yet hateful, building up yet tearing down, excellent research yet careless gossip, and above all we attempt to treat Jesus as a doctrinal figure that can be pushed to the side to make way for a torrent of fleshly posts.
Senior Curator - Rick Frueh
August 24th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
John,
Your editorializing was amazing. That actually made me laugh out loud.
and the first line is Ken telling me that God doesn’t hear my prayers. John, that was just funny. I mean, you should have at least started with me. Way to be a reconciliationist John. Way to go, Bud!
August 24th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
“Merry, you really shouldn’t begin a sentence with a conjunction. But you probably already knew that.”
But Chad . . . I didn’t know what else to begin the sentence with!
J/K
August 24th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
And merry, in order to demonstrate your superior grammatical skills, when quoting someone like myself you may want to correct my numerous mistakes thusly…
For I will not be offended but feel quite loved for the charitable rebuke.
Someone please pull the plug on me.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Thank you for that 1/2 compliment Pastorboy. I think you are to kind, I miss the mark 9 times out of 10.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Actually, Eugene, you should give yourself some grace.
9 out of 10 wrong in their eyes is probably actually a 90% rate of success in the real world…
celebrate!
August 24th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I am often careless with my words. I hang my head in shame. If not for the grace of God I will be condemned. Oh, how I wish I would always be motivated by love and humility.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
nc, please don’t stop my pity party.
August 24th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
PB - I didn’t demand anything. Also, your argument is so insanely wrong I’m flabergasted. We should call everybody to do the right thing because the right thing hasn’t always been done in the past? Think about it.
RA - Most of my courses won’t/don’t have tests. Normally I would take offense at your insinuation that schooling is not as beneficial as “real world” experience. I know, you did not say it outright, but that is what you communicated. They both have tremendous value. But taking my own advice, I won’t read into it (this time). Also, if I take your advice, then I must assume the same of you and your writings. And then we pretty much end up in the tit-for-tat arguments that have been ensuing for so long among christians.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Christian:
In RA’s defense, he wasn’t making a blanket statement about the value of school v. experience. It’s just that when dealing with ODMs, descriptive reasoning is more important than normative reasoning, which strikes me as true.
That strikes me as true for most people, in fact. That’s why there are more psychologists in the world than logicians.
But if you’re talking about medicine, chemistry, flying, etc., it seems like school is a necessary and valuable prerequisite. And I don’t think RA would disagree…
August 24th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
You know, I was honestly laughing to myself today about John’s new site, and then I got to thinking that essentially he’s saying, “Well, you guys are wrong so here I come.” I guess. What cracks me up is he is the one that likes to hit his caps lock button and say something about becoming like what you …I don’t quite remember the end.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
PB,
Truely many here extend so much grace to you for all the time we waste on you…
Not trying to be mean… but speaking the truth in love as you can’t see how much grace is given you and mock and put down those that give it to you.
iggy
August 24th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
PB,
BTW that new site is great. Finally you have the context and the original statements… and people can read all the things you twist in the wrong way… again…
Thanks!
iggy
August 24th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
PB,
On your new website you linked to you said I ‘joined in with the insults’. I really didn’t..and I didn’t insult anyone. Ken was eisegeting, which is wrong, and I was saying that this was the worst eisegesis ever (that I had seen him do). I didn’t personally attack him or anything, and I didn’t insult him. It’s just silly to insinuate that because people disagree with Ken and are vocal about it (though they don’t say “you’re not Christian” like Ken does with many others), that Ken must therefore be right. And that if enough people like you, you might be a false prophet. That’s terrible eisegesis of that section of Scripture, plain and simple. In fact, it’s a lesson in false logic, which happens to be what this post is on lol.
Sorry you thought I was insulting Ken, I wasn’t. Why don’t you let Ken Silva defend Ken Silva, if he wants to.
Joe
August 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Christian: Normally I would take offense at your insinuation that schooling is not as beneficial as “real world” experience. I know, you did not say it outright, but that is what you communicated.
RA: Well, tbh, that was not what I actually insinuated (or communicated).
Logical fallacy = Strawman.
_____________
Christian: They both have tremendous value.
RA: Never said otherwise.
_____________
Christian: But taking my own advice, I won’t read into it (this time).
RA: Good advice to take.
_____________
Christian: Also, if I take your advice, then I must assume the same of you and your writings.
RA: Incorrect.
1. As I previously noted: “you’re seeing an emotional/psychological problem in the discussions here FROM THOSE WHO APPEAR UNABLE TO REASON OR THINK LOGICALLY.” I doubt that you would be able to show in my writings or my postings where that is the trap into which I have fallen. I certainly might be incorrect on a fact here or there, and you might disagree with my interpretation of a certain Bible passage, etc. etc. etc. etc., but thinking and reasoning is not an issue in my writings — yet. Feel free to investigate my work and provide examples that would suggest otherwise.
2. You have just committed another logical fallacy that you might want to note: The False Dilemma Fallacy.
The truth is that you have other options than this one you mentioned. If what you say is true, then you would be essentially saying that no one — no matter who they were — could possibly make the kind of observation I made and be believed without also being condemned by their own words. This would then translate — logically speaking — over to other statements made by anyone who dared criticize anyone for anything.
Obviously, absurd.
_____________
Christian: And then we pretty much end up in the tit-for-tat arguments that have been ensuing for so long among Christians.
RA: False Dilemma — again. This explanation, tbh, is also extremely simplistic regarding the dynamics that have been involved in the “arguments that have been ensuing for so long among Christians.”
______________
CONCLUSION:
Christian,
It has been shown again and again that many of the ODMs who post here and elsewhere do not blend their accusations with actual facts, in-context quotes, or reasoned/logical responses. I was offering an alternative observation to your “logic” treatise with regard to WHY/HOW that is possible based on:
1. nearly twenty years of experience in the area of apologetics/discernment,
2. my own personal studies of such matters, and
3. discussions with other professional apologists.
And now from my heart to you: The next time someone tries to offer you just a little bit of friendly advise, guidance, and information for your benefit, you might not want to be so sensitive about it, but accept it gratefully and try to learn from it.
School is school. Real life is real life. Don’t get caught up in the whole academic scene so much that you can’t learn from other sources, or that you start seeing school (and what you learn there) as the answer to everything. That results in a kind of academic arrogance. (Remember, the disciples were all fisherman.)
Don’t go the opposite extreme and take “offense” at the mere thought of someone saying that perhaps higher education ain’t ALL THAT & MORE.
peace,
RAbanes
“Goodness, gracious Lawd, wha’ day be techin’ deez yungins’ at duh schoolz day be goin’ to deez days?”
August 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
There is something to be said about getting a diploma from the “School Of Hard Knocks”.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Actually, RA, by your use of the video game analogy, you did insinuate that. Also, you are reading into my comments whatever sensitivity you perceive. I qualified my statement by saying that I am not taking offense to it.
Also, I did not commit any logical fallacies. I did however fail to quote you and provide an extensive response and therefore used poor communication skills. You make a blanket statement:
What I was saying is that if I take your advice to forget the intillectual aspects and draw conclusions about others writings based on the motivations you listed, then the same thing would apply to you. Despite your qualification that this is often the case (therefore not always the case) the result is a general approach to reading what others write as emotionally charged selfishly motivated writings. We should not judge the motivations of our brothers and sisters. Are you wrong about many ODMs with that particular conclusion you drew as a result of your observation? No. Am I saying your observation is completely wrong? No. The problem is that it leads us to judge the person, not the work.
And quite frankly, I think this falls into the same error that PB committed so blatantly. We shouldn’t call everybody to do the right thing because the right thing hasn’t always been done in the past? (Btw, I’d like to point out that in my original comment to PB at #43, I wrote “should” and meant “shouldn’t” as I wrote here.)
The point is not that we rely on logic and literary devices. The point is that we (all of us, especially those with emotional/psychological problems who are motivated by unhealthy things) should do the hard work to understand each other.
About finding logical fallacies in your writings, I don’t really care. That wasn’t the point of the post or my response. But something can flow logically and the person who wrote it still be in error, even if only in their attitude.
Also, if you think I can’t learn from other sources, you haven’t read my other writings on here.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Also RA, please don’t read too much into my titles. I don’t put much stock in titles (probably a fault) and therefore play around with them a lot. This title of course was meant to be funny.
August 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
C: ….if I take your advice to forget the intellectual aspects and draw conclusions about others writings based on the motivations you listed, then the same thing would apply to you.
RA: I never said “forget” about them entirely. Such things have their place.
________
C: The problem is that it leads us to judge the person, not the work.
RA: I see your point, but would only say that unfortunately, it is often, if not always the case, that the two are inextricably linked. No one writes in a vacuum. We are whole beings.
Just as there is a mind body connection, there is also a mind-heart-emotion connection in expressing certain things. Our task is to try to remain as objective as possible, be willing to look at facts (rather than making assumptions based on foregone conclusions), and always seek to handle evidence fairly.
RAbanes
August 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Christian: Actually, RA, by your use of the video game analogy, you did insinuate that.
RA: Uhm, no , sorry, I did not insinuate that “schooling is NOT AS BENEFICIAL as ‘real world’ experience.” It’s different. That’s all. In SOME instances schooling & education helps more. In OTHER instances, real life experience helps more than education. That is what I was saying.
So, now you know, from the horses mouth, so to speak, that I do not believe, now was I saying that across the board, “schooling is NOT AS BENEFICIAL as ‘real world’ experience.”
TY,
RAbanes
August 25th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Do you consider yourself someone with emotional/psychological problems, motivated by unhealthy things? If not, why not?
August 25th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Amy,
Not really. Most of us don’t consider ourselves to be that way, even when we might be. That’s why we sometimes need close friends to speak to those issues in our lives. But what are you trying to get at? I didn’t bring the issue up, and in fact argued with RA that that should be what we think of when we interact others.
But there have been and I’m sure will be times when I will deal with emotional/psychological problems. There have been times, and I’m sure will be times when my motivation is not what it should be. Aren’t we all like that? But all in all, I would say my motivation is most often to cooperate with God in the work of transforming lives. And that is healthy.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Christian P,
My apologies. I am very sorry. I thought that Richard Abanes had said that particular statement since he did, as you say, initially bring it up, the first in comment #27 I believe.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
It has frustrated many of the authors on this site for quite some time how some people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts including but not limited to the flow of logic, logical fallacies, and literary devices (i.e. simile, metaphor, irony, etc.).
Yeah, me too.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Yep, I noticed it about you also… LOL…
iggy
August 27th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I hereby give anyone permission to copy anything from my blog. Cut and paste it to misrepresent what I said if you want, and combine phrases to make it seem like I am duplicitous (easy). I give my permission to call me names, mock my intellect, question my salvation, and generally attack me in any way.
I promise not to threaten any legal action or even contact any lawyer. This is due to my conviction about that type of action and my inability to pay a lawyer.
My name is Rick Frueh and I approved this message.
August 27th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Thank you Rick, I might take you up on that offer.
August 27th, 2008 at 7:04 am
Gene - Let me help you with some guidelines:
* I am sometimes stronger that I should be
* I am sometimes not as strong as I should be
* I sometimes am torn about things
* I sometimes show love without discernment
* I sometimes show discernment without love
* I often believe myself to be much smarter than I actually am
* I sometimes change my mind
These are some good starting points, Gene.