Who is to Blame? Seriously: That’s the New Angle!
Friends,
I only have time for a short post on this, so I need to get straight to the point. Read on only if you have courage as I am a bit testy this morning. I know we have hashed and re-hashed this issue over Granger, but I have a different perspective to lend: that of the ‘pastor.’
I haven’t followed the ‘Granger is Full of Heretics’ story too closely, and I am relatively new to the ways in which certain ADM (’Actual Damnation Ministries’) work, so I’ll need just a bit of help here.
First, SOL links to this story with this title: Who’s to Blame for the Granger Debacle? The author of Slice writes:
When over half of your congregation doesn’t believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, who is to blame? When nearly that same amount doesn’t believe the Bible is authoritative, where does the fault lie? Is it the fault of the pastor? The elder board? The small group leaders? The architects of the building? The local utilities? The house band?
Second, this is actually a link back to a blog I am starting to dislike more and more, despite the author’s claim to not be an ODM, (My) Truth Matters. The author writes:
Who is the shepherd of the local church? Who is responsible to “feed and guard the sheep”? Listen to how Mark Beeson takes no responsibility and blames the people and then describes the “changes” that will be made.
Third, here’s where it gets to the point. So, Granger church (of which I know very, very little) does a little survey and concludes that there are some things wrong or at least concludes some things that need to be addressed. Then they start addressing these issues, but only after making the results of the survey public knowledge, and thereby setting up the ADM’s for at least three days worth of posts and ’see I told you so’s’. So, if I understand this correctly, and follow the logic and work habits of the ADM’s: 1. Criticize a church with whose theology and practice you disagree. 2. Make certain you publish all their flaws publicly for all to read. (3. Said church does a survey which concludes there are, yes, problems, that need to be addressed. [Would that more churches had such courage. Would that more ADM's had such courage.] ) 4. Publish new articles criticizing the Church for agreeing with what you were saying. 5. Publish more articles that go out of their way to assign blame. Continually harp on the ‘pastor’ or ‘leadership’ of said church in an effort to prove oneself right and to show massive prophetic powers to constituents and contributors. 6. Start the whole process over again when said church makes changes that you don’t think ‘go far enough.’
Fourth, the blame game…hmmm…where I have heard that before? Oh, yes: “Was it you?…It was the woman….It was the serpent…It was…uh…it was the, uh…Nixon…Clinton…” At some point the blame becomes pointless. If you are an ADM/ODM please tell all of us why you give a damn (sorry) who is to blame for this? WE ARE SINNERS! We will do the wrong thing and make wrong choices. The issue here is not that they found something wrong, but that they had to courage to admit it in the first place. I could survey the entire world and find that 98% people don’t believe Jesus is exclusively the way to salvation. Granger found the problem…why do you care who is to blame? Have you nothing better to do with your pathetic dreary graceless blogs? If they have found the problem, if they are working at fixing it, why do you care? How does what they do affect your comfortable lives behind keyboards and microphones?
Fifth, the gist here is about the role of the preacher in the church. One the one hand, I want to respond, “You think it is the job of the preacher because you have a terrible misunderstanding of the role of the preacher/evangelist/pastor.” ”Our culture tells us a great deal about ‘the minister,’ and much of what it says is inaccurate. It has presented an image of how he should look, what his job is, how he is to act, what he is supposed to in times of illness and death, upon whom he is supposed to call and how often and for what occasions, and even what his family should be like. ‘The ministry’–that vocation in which one is overwhelmed with meetings and a myriad of tasks, torn by conflicting expectations, molded by centuries-old traditions of the pastor-priest–seems impossible to increasing numbers of candidates who sincerely yearn to serve God.” (Joe Ellis, The Church on Purpose, 111 (Standard Publishing, 1982)
You want to know why we are ‘losing the battle for America’? It’s because the people who sit in the pews and at their computer work-stations blogging don’t have any idea what is going on in the life of the typical American pastor and because people like ADM/ODM’s scare the hell into young people who want to go into ministry so they can PREACH. But thanks to a culture of feeders, preachers cannot focus on what matters (ministry of the Word and prayer, Acts 6) because we have to all sort of other stupid things like go to meetings, visit this person or that, hand all the admin…blah…blah…blah…It is lazy parishioners…lazy Christians…people who won’t carry one another’s burdens, people who won’t feed one another, people who won’t care for one another…that are to blame. It’s just too easy to blame the man or woman upfront isn’t it? Takes all the burden off of you, right?
On the other hand, I want to say, “Those who can, preach; those who cannot criticize or blog.”
If you sense a bit of anger here, please do. If you are offended by my use of the word ‘damn’ or ‘hell’, tough. I’m tired of these people who have nothing better to do but sit around and assign blame. I’ll tell you what: I’ll take the blame for Granger having the problems they do. Maybe now the AMD’s will shut up about it.
jerry
PS-”To this day the Biblical role of the church member has not been substantially reclaimed. Christians, by and large, do not demonstrate a clear awareness of the demand for serious, even radical, commitment. They tend to be pale shadows of the dynamic, Spirit-filled world-changers the New Testament describes. The primary doers–those responsible for getting Christ’s work done–remain the salaried ministers. Many of the church’s members continue to be observers of ministry, perpetuating a platform-audience relationship.” (Joe Ellis, ibid., 112) Well said.
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
As a brief follow-up: Shouldn’t we be praising God that they had the courage to take this step? Instead of turning a blind eye to the problem they analyzed it, shouldn’t we fall down in worship that they did? Is this not a reason to praise? To worship? Is assigning blame really the important part of this story?
My God, have mercy! I am angry at these pathetic people’s and their pathetic blame games.
These people need serious spiritual help.
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Sir Winston Churchhill
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Jerry - you need to listen to the WotM radio program on it. You’ll just love Friel’s mcoking and laughing at the preacher as Friel plays clips at which to mock. It will calm you down and get you to saying heck again!
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Rick,
I cannot listen to Friel. There’s something about his voice that gives me the willies. (No offense to anyone named Willy.) Seriously, I get a cold, erie feeling when I listen to him and I am ISTJ.
jerry
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
You’re hearing the hiss.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
“On the other hand, I want to say, ‘Those who can, preach; those who cannot criticize or blog.’”
Dudes. Look in the mirror.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Unless I’m missing something, I think the reason that Granger has taken so much heat for this new revelation (which really wasn’t all that new, but seemed to confirm what was glaringly obvious) is that they are considered somewhat of an icon when it comes to professionally doing purpose driven. I could be mistaken but that’s my understanding.
Hence, this is not just a slander campaign on an individual church but more so supporting evidence that the church growth, purpose driven, business acumen way of doing church can be dangerous.
Also, Jerry kind of minimizes the issue - “they did a few things wrong.”
Actually, the whole foundation is corrupt. This is part of the reason why Jeremiah was told to uproot, pull down and destroy THEN to plant and to build. This is where the Lord will really need to lead them.
Let me say that I do admire the courage it took to look in the mirror, and - with so much invested - declare the things they did. That is admirable indeed.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
On a note this good be a start of a reformation in the church. Only time will tell. How long did it take from the day that Luther nailed the 95 on the door to the acutal outbreak of the gospel.
Let us pray that the word would once again reform the church to God’s standards and ways!
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
BTW - it’s better to correct it now than before it’s too late…
Here’s a quote from Warren Buffett:
“You always find out who’s been swimming naked when the tide goes out. We found out that Wall Street has been a kind of nudist beach.”
Now replace “Wall Street” with… well, you get the idea.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
The American church has been on the slide for the last 60 years. I believe that Evangelicasm could just as easily be pointed to as part of the problem.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:10 pm
The Warren Buffet quote could apply to the Laodicean church in Revelation.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Actually, if half of the Granger congregation are believing then they are way ahead of Jesus.
He was constantly sorrounded by an enormous group of unblievers and never apologized for it. His crowd was only curious and as far as we know many may never have gotten saved. He never made them “members” (or anyone else for that matter) but he never ran them off either. He must have seen it as an opportunity not a problem.
Where else should we want unbelievers to go…bars??
I would rather have a house full of unbelievers every service than be surrounded by the frozen chosen.
Many unbelievers need time to sit and listen to Bible messages over a long period before it sinks in. I’ve known atheists who sat under Bible preaching for a full year and a half before they made a profession of faith. Most churches and the card-board-cutout Christians who attend would be too insecure to let than happen.
The truth is, only the insecure get saved the first time they hear the gospel and after salvation the insecurity drives their thinking about ministry.
Bravo to Granger (who I know less about than Jerry) for creating a situation where so many curious unbelievers could hear the Gospel repeatedly.
BTW. I don’t mind a few strong words. It is worse to be an ass than it is to name one.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Jerry -
A suggestion for you: check your anger at the door. Your post is pathetic, dreary, and graceless (where have I heard those words before). Why do you give a damn what an ADM/ODM writes?
The hypocrisy at this stie continues to be obvious. As you and Nathan go on and on about the audacity of a ODM to criticise a church or movement, you continue your criticism. Of course you are different with your righteous indignation. Right……keep telling yourself that.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:30 pm
WOW - to claim a church is not even built on the foundation of Christ, but that they are corrupt to the core and should be torn down like an alter to a heathen God is well… WOW!!!
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Ennis,
Who is the church for? The church is for beleviers, it is the gathered body. It is to prepare people to go be among sinners. While it is good that non-christians go to church it is no primarly for them but it is for the worship of God and building up of saints. That his the disconnect. You are more worried about feeding goats to the point of bursting that the sheep are starving. The pastor first responsibilty is not to get more church members but to feed the flock that God have given him.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
We give a damn anytime someone within the Body of Christ attacks the Body of Christ (what is the definition of cancer?). That is why we do what we do.
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Why curse?
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
The ‘American Church’?! Can you say oxymoron? The American church has never had it right which is why there been so many new denominations, so many new movements, so many new…
When has there been a time in the history of the church that things have been ‘right’? The church in the world isn’t right. But that’s not the point. The point here, contrary to accusations that I have ‘minimized’ the problem is this: they (ADM’s) are trying to minimize who is to ‘blame’ by dumping all this on the ‘pastors’ just as certain others blame the loss of the ‘battle for America’ on Rick Warren. The problem is that no one noticed what Granger did: They looked at themselves and said: We are the problem.
If all of us did that very same thing, then the church might start being ‘right’ and have a voice of authority. As it is, we won’t and we don’t.
And yet, this is the entire point of Grace. People expected God to dump perfection on the world and he didn’t. Again, Ellul is brilliant, “People were looking for the kingdom and instead got the church.”
We are stuck with the church and all its imperfections. Even if we clean it up, we are still stuck with the next big heresy just around the corner. This is why ODMism is so blatantly wrong. Those Grand Inquisitors are beyond pale.
jerry
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I laugh every time I read that it is wrong to tell people they are wrong when they tell others they are wrong…
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
So because there are false teachings and wrong ways of doing it that are always with us. We should not fight for what is right?
I don’t understand this
“We are stuck with the church and all its imperfections. Even if we clean it up, we are still stuck with the next big heresy just around the corner. This is why ODMism is so blatantly wrong. Those Grand Inquisitors are beyond pale. “
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Neil - being a little dramatic are we?
I did not say the people are corrupt, but the foundation upon which they built might just be.
Why do I say that?
Any time a church starts by asking people “Why don’t you go to church?”
Answer: boring and irrelevant
And then start a church that addresses these two things - it is building on a bad foundation. Sure, people will come, possibly in droves, but I think the main thrust of this report is that it doesn’t serve to plant people in Christ.
That singular question is RIFE with complete misunderstanding, and becausethis foundational question that drives many churches to become what they are, I would suggest that the foundation on which they built (exciting and relevant) is poor.
(In anticipation of those who will come back and say, “So church should be completely irrelevant to my life and boring to top it off, Paul?” I am not arguing for that either)
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Eric,
You wrote:
You remind me of my son when he was 2…no…1…he couldn’t read either. I’m not talking about the audacity of anyone. I’m talking about the sheer stupidity of playing ‘who’s to blame.’ But nice try.
jerry
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Sorry, I was just taking what you said at face value - you said the foundation was corrupt… the foundation of the church is our faith in Christ, so I assumed you meant they had none.
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Boring - I had a prof in seminary that told us it was a sin to bore people with the word of God. I agree. And don’t go the “entertainment” route, that is often a false dichotomy.
Irrelevant - I even took classes on how to study the Bible and make it relevant… who knew I was building on a false foundation.
Neil
(adding sarcasm to my melodrama)
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Kyle,
The Grand Inquistor is a character from a story told by Ivan in the story The Brothers Karamazov. One day, Jesus decided to visit His people:
It’s truly a remarkable story by Dostoyevsky. You should read it. If you don’t get the other part about being ’stuck with the church…well, what else is there?
jerry
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I think the worship of God and the study of his word should be the most exciting and relevant things we do. As I’m sure most would agree.
The problem still, as it usually does, comes back to the ODM’s insisting that you do it their way or its heresy (I wish that rhymed).
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Neil - how did you completely miss my last sentence?
The word of God is neither boring nor irrelevant. But that is the reason people give for not going to church?
In other words, “We’d come to Jesus, pour out our lives before Him and serve Him with ALL that we are, if only the church was not so boring and irrelevant to our lives!” Riiiiight.
Asking people who are blind and dead in trespasses and sin why they don’t come to church (not Jesus, church) is just absolutely ridiculous and serves to illustrate a vast gap in understanding.
Instead, the church embarks on a mission to entertain, woo and shock its fledgling flock into coming to church week after week for the next show that may or may not feature Jesus.
Again, it’s taking a business approach to church building - it’s a marketing effort. The problem is that though it works for products and services, it’s not the best model for the church.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
BTW - in case you missed it, the title of the post on CRN was “Undeniable Proof”.
Undeniable means that you can’t refute it, even with all your efforts and word-smithing. So just let it rest. It is undeniable.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
It’s about more than just the church, they equate following Jesus with being boring and irrelevant because that is (in some cases) how churches are… so you’re you’re example above misses the point.
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Instead, the church embarks on a mission to entertain, woo and shock its fledgling flock into coming to church week after week for the next show that may or may not feature Jesus. - Paul C.
And how did you miss my “And don’t go the “entertainment” route, that is often a false dichotomy.”?
So, we are even.
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
How can something be undeniable and denied at the same time?
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I agree. I completely agree with the premise. Where we disagree is with the application. And Sol and Silva (and others) most often apply this to whomever they happen to be offended by - based on external appearances and methodology.
I still say Steve Taylor is their patron saint and “I wanna be a clone” their theme song.
Neil
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Neil,
It is undeniable that I am denying the undeniability of anyone to deny the undeniability of the undeniably deniable post at CRN.
Got it?
jerry
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Neil - with that last comment I was just kidding - making sure you’re reading, that’s all (it was sarcasm).
Amen.
But seriously Neil - as I said earlier I really admire any group of people who, when confronted with the bare facts, don’t continue headlong on the same route but begin to seriously question their direction to begin with.
I believe that the issues now being confronted (praise God for that) are actually nothing more than the fruit of the seed initially planted (”Why don’t you go to church?” and then building around that premise).
That may be, but the gospel - the true gospel - has never been about excitement and fun, but rather hope in eternal life, forgiveness of sins, redemption, hope and so forth.
Have you ever heard the true definition of the word “excuse” - it is a lie wrapped in the skin of a reason.
The real reason people don’t come to Christ (even those in church) is because it is demanding, requires sacrifice to some degree, is not all that glamorous (even if you’re a missionary) and can make you an alien in this world.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I believe he was quoting EVD back as a parallelism, and “give a damn” is not a curse against anyone. But I think we’ve covered that particular subject enough…
Then you’re suggesting that Jesus is corrupt, as GCC frequently affirms him as the foundation of their church.
Tell you what - after you do an identical survey of the people who attend your church (members and non-members, just like GCC did) and publish the results of 90+%, then you might have a little more credibility.
Now - I wonder what will happen next year if GCC conducts the same survey and publishes results, and shows an improvement by 5-10%? Will there be continued griping/sniping from the ADM’s about a church they don’t attend for its shortfall, or will there be a recognition of improvement? I wonder…
“Grace” Community Church?
*Zzzzzzt*
How about we go to a first-century Rabbi for the answer to your question:
You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
(FYI - salt was primarily used in cooking fires - you mixed salt with manure to make it burn brighter and longer, and you could reuse it a number of times before it lost its saltiness…)
“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.”
No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.
Or there’s this:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The church does not exist for itself, it is blessed in order to be a blessing. If some churches choose to use their Sunday morning gatherings for outreach and their small groups and classes for instruction, what business is it of yours?
Yeah - someone failed logic class (I’m guessing its a pre-requisite to the ODM entrance exam…)
The problem becomes when “false teachings” and “wrong ways” are matters of opinion, not fact. (And just to give you a hint, systematic theologies are consistently matters of opinion…)
But now you’ve created a Catch-22 in which you’ve got to expect unbelievers to have a high level of Christian maturity before they will be interested in Christianity.
If you are demonstrating and preaching the gospel in a language that will be understood by the people hearing it, it will not be “boring” or “irrelevant”. Certainly these two items (excitement and relevancy) can be met in ways that do nothing for the body, but correlation does not equal causation.
Just because they’re illiterate and apparently ignorant of the meaning of “Undeniable” doesn’t mean that we must follow in their illusion.
Without comparitors or context, their analysis is completely deniable and stupid. All it did was prove that they haven’t taken (or at least passed) a basic statistics class…
And so a question becomes - where are they more likely to see the value of sacrifice and service, when they’re in contact with members of the body on a regular basis, or when they’re on the golf course Sunday morning? How impatient must we be before we tell them to “shove-off”?
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Possibly neither, depending on the church and the message promoted.
If you say so… yes, that must be exactly what I meant.
And proving he didn’t read what I wrote following my statement - I was just KIDDING.
Most points were missed left and right…
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 am
Why curse again? Why not be civiliazed? Do You want children running around saying that?
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 am
Noone of those verse having anything to do with the church. What does the word church mean, it’s roots and orign? What does the greek word mean? Have you study the church, I know you might have, but try it again looks in Acts, she what people did when they became beleivers on the Lord’s Day. Did they do outreach, have shows, gather as many non-christian as they could together. Then look at Paul letter’s does any of Paul churchs look like Granger or any church today that you know of?? Hmmm who is wrong Paul and Luke or the mondern church.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:47 am
Chris do you think that no one can understand the bible, that it is unclear and foggy? Then why can we not know truth? Why can we not say anyone is wrong? Is the bible clear on to whom and what the church is supposedto be for? Or is it foggy? I am talking not about church governace or the like, but Granger and the like compared to the way christiany has traditional done church? Does the bible notmake it clear what is the most important part for a true chruch service?
August 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Kyle,
Yes, the Bible does make clear what is most important for a ‘true church service.’ I think Jesus said it this way: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. What part of that, can you demonstrate, Granger has failed? To your point, I would argue that there is a significant difference between ‘church service’ and ‘the church at worship.’
Kyle, I understand your passion here, but it is misplaced. The issue here is not whether or not Granger Church is ‘doing it right’ or ‘doing it wrong.’ The issue here is: What business is it of SOL, (my)TM, AP, CRN.info, you, me or any one else what Granger does? If those people who write those blogs belonged to those churches it might be different. They don’t. And it is thus none of their business. That church will stand and fall to its own Master who is Jesus Christ, who walks among the Lampstands.
Can you demonstrate, also, ‘the way Christianity has traditionally done church’? Church is not something we ‘do.’ Worship is something we do; theology is something do; praying is something we do. Church is something we are. But to your point, I don’t think you can demonstrate any continuity whatsoever in worship practices from the early church until now. Worship, with Jesus the Lamb as its central focus, is always conditioned by the culture where it is practiced. Only someone who is complete obtuse would miss that. Jesus Christ is the only common thread in worship.
jerry
August 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 am
Funny, I say that everytime I read AM or CRN.com.
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I don’t see anyone cursing anything. Did you read the linked article?
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Back off, I am the curse police!
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
That’s funny, here I thought that the followers of Jesus comprised the church, and that instructions to his followers mattered to it.
Guess not.
The primary word used is Ecclesia - which in Greek means “the called out ones”, and has imagery in the assemblies which were in service and loyalt to Caesar. The Greek word for “church”, though is kyrios, which refers to the body of Christ.
In either case, it is the name for a group of believers (people) and not a place.
They certainly did reach out to their communities to make disciples of as many as would come. Of course, I assume you’re limiting the discussion to a single passage:
Or Pliny the Younger’s description of Christian practice, which included singing? The fact is, we have very little description of their ritualistic practice from Scripture. Even above, it appears that Paul’s speaking may have been unusual, and not the norm.
False dichotomy Kyle. This is what I’m talking about with logic.
I doubt you will find ANY church which completely mirrors first century practice, in terms of ritual and custom. In fact, the form of worship and function of meeting does not seem to hold any primary importance in the epistles.
It’s one thing to say that GCC offends your taste - that’s your right. It’s another to foist your opinion onto God. Sorry -that dog don’t hunt.
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
A Pliny the Younger sighting! Great!!
But then there’s this correction -
That dog doesn’t hunt.
Your welcome, Chris. (from an English major)
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Correction, Mr. English major, it is you’re welcome.
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I am such a hypocrite!
Thank you, Chris. “You’re” is the rabbinical way!!
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Kyle,
Perhaps we should just plaster a “get it together before you get together with us” sign across the doors of our church buildings, or placards in front that say “by invitation only” and see how long they last…
(HINT: The signs may be missing, but that’s what the world sees in many churches today, particularly those of the fundamentalist stripe…)
August 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Kyle -
I seem to remember Paul having some pretty harsh words for some of his churches, particlarly in Corinth…You know, things like rampant sexual immorality, rich people getting drunk during communion, heresies of all shapes and stripes. That was Paul’s church. He must have been a pretty crappy preacher.
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I would still suggest a problem. However, without personally sitting under that pastor and listening to his messgaes it is impossible to make an informed assessment.
If Grace Community did a survey and found that 95% of the members were Calvinists, I would view that as a major problem too!
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Scotty, the guy old enough to remember when fundamentalist wasn’t a dirty word!!
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Scotty,
you couldn’t possibly be that old…
Fundamentalism stopped being a useful word (and school of thought) in the mid-1920’s….
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
ooopss….forgot to put the
after the first part…
I kid, I kid, Scotty.
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Corey,
Not to mention his choice in “elders” who pastor the flock in his absence….
great point.
*sigh*
the human capacity to sentimentalize an unexperienced and unknown past as some “lost golden age” really only demonstrates some people’s refusal or inability to creatively deal with circumstances their “Sovereign Lord” has, in his, well, sovereignty, placed them in.
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
I’m old enough to remember when Evie Tournquist was cutting edge Christian music!
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Evie…
Yikes!!!!
I do too…and I know I’m no where near as dusty as Rick…
August 23rd, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Actually, I have a question…
Why does Granger have to be a “debacle”?
Why the overwrought language?
Why not see it as a church that is honestly facing it’s particular ministry challenges?
There’s not a single church that’s hitting on all eight cylinders and there never will be…
If I have any criticism of GCC it’s the same of every larger evangelical mega-church…being so focused on mission/evangelism they haven’t created structures that attend to the subsequent needs of their people as effectively.
But thank God these folk are of a mindset to reassess, be evaluating and doing the adjustments needed…AND…
to be honest about it.
Honesty–Something religious folks seem to have a genetic inability to embrace.
August 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 pm
N.C.
Absolutely. I don’t understand. They did an assessment, and now they’re adjusting. Good for them.
August 23rd, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I am in agreement with all the people here whom I find so agreeable.
I’ve been laying low from .info for a few days hoping to see the whole KS/RA drama die. That stuff is so depressing. Something is seriously wrong when we can use someone’s initials and everyone know who we are talking about. I miss the good ol’ days when KS was Kansas and RA was Research Assistant or Room Attendent or Monica Lewinski.
I applaud a church that assesses its strenghts and weaknesses and isn’t afraid to publish them. In our conference we initiated what is called a Healthy Congregations study - something we do each fall. With this we do a four week bible study that focuses on four parts: Centered on Christ, Radical Hospitality, Mission to the World and Spiritual Formation/Disciple making. After a study on each section we fill out an assessment form that asks tough questions about where we are as a church on a scale of 1-10. Afterwards, we decide on a MAP (Ministry Action Plan), which is a goal we will work on for the following year to correct deficiencies found. Each year we uncover a lot of areas where we lack. We also find many areas over which we can rejoice and give thanks. In either case we look to God to guide and lead us as we seek to be a light for Christ in our neck of the woods and beyond.
It is a pitiful state of affairs when other Christians or churches pounce on other churches for being confessional. I can’t imagine Jesus mocking his bride the way we so often do.
peace.
August 23rd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
To actually take a survey, and to actually publish the findings even though embarrassing, and to actually admit shortcomings, and then to actually take steps to rectify the issues actually makes your church stick out like a sore thumb.
I wonder how many memebers of some orthodox churches could not only answer the questions correctly, but take the Scriptures and support their views? And even if they could support their views with Scripture, how many would pass the humility test?
Without Calvin as their tutor, many preachers would be doctrinally lost.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Oh no, Rick…
You’re forgetting there’s always “Campi’s” blog and probably a ton of audio from J-Mac.
btw, “Campi”?
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I studied at the feet of Calvin. He was my mentor.
Actually I had to wait for Servetus to be dispatched. Calvin taught my all I ever needed to know about the Trinity.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I think something that is missed in the criticism of Bill Hybels’ comment of self feeding is the context it was said in. In an interview I heard him explain that they (Willow Creek) used to give the impression to people that ALL their spiritual needs would be met by attending the services and programs of the church. This created a scenario where people expected to be spoonfed even after growing to a level of maturity where these methods are no longer effective. The study revealed that they(Willow Creek) should teach people how to do bible study, get together with friends and find mentors in order to feed themselves and that what is what they intend to do. It is not as if Willow Creek are going to leave these christians to feed on whatever they find or just starve. It was made clear that the programs they will work out for this “self feeding” will be well thought through and will not leave their members to their own devices.
Does it not bother the critic that he/she is ripping people’s words from context and by that lying about what that person said???
August 24th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
RE: Does it not bother the critic that he/she is ripping people’s words from context and by that lying about what that person said???
Yes. It does not.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
RE: Does it not bother the critic that he/she is ripping people’s words from context and by that lying about what that person said???
Yes. It does not.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Dang! I got that blockquote wrong!
August 24th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Eugene,
NC is saying that it doesn’t bother them at all. This is more about protecting their way of life (religiousity) than worrying about being accurate in your quoting of people.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Oooh… Me understands very little of this new world.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
“I’m only 4 foot 11 but I’m going to heaven.”
Gee, I wish they could right such deep, insightful songs today instead of all the fluff we get.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Yeah…
I know our current contemporary worship is so fluffy…
“Indescribable, uncontainable, You placed the stars in the sky and you know them by name…You are amazing, God!”
“The splendor of the King, clothed in majesty, let all the earth rejoice. He wraps Himself in light, and darkness tries to hide, it trembles at his voice.. How great is our God!”…
But place those same statements in early 20th century literary style and a revivalist hymn structure and then all of sudden…
it’s deep, reverential, profound worship…
August 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
We open our conference to help gay men overcome with “I kissed a girl and I liked it!”.