who’s focused on the externals?
From the Fundamental Baptist Information Service
NEED SOME URGENT HELP FROM YOU PASTORS ABOUT GIRL AND PANTS
I have a problem that you can help me with. All I ask is that you write and let me know what you would say to the following situation. It might even sound humorous to you, but I can assure you that it is a serious matter.
There is a teenage girl in a church. The church teaches that pants are not the most appropriate and modest attire for women. The girl is from a very poor family (six people living in one room), but she was the first member of her family to come to Christ about three years ago.
She has been growing in the Lord and is faithful to church and prayer meetings. Recently she got a scholarship to a school that requires the female students to wear lose pants. Though someone from the church approached the school leaders and asked them to make an exception for her, they refused. Since the girl has decided to attend the school anyway, the church won’t allow her to teach Sunday School anymore because she will no longer meet the standards for workers.
But there is a prominent person in the church who is not content with this. He thinks she should be disciplined after the fashion of 1 Corinthians 5 and she should not be allowed to take the Lord’s Supper.
What do you think?
The more pastors I can hear from on this, the better.
Thank you!
In Christ,
Brother Cloud
This situation literally made me sick to my stomach and boiling angry. I commend Ingrid for her thoughts on this post. I find it so ironic that contemporary/post-modern churches are criticized for being focused on external and futile elements in church (lighting, projection systems, coffee bars, etc.). However, in my experience, it is the traditional churches that are obsessed with the externals in the congregation. I dare someone in a traditional church to take away the choir ropes — heck, change the choir robe colors — and see what happens. Have the pastor dress in his everyday clothes and see how many people leave. Change the color of the carpet and watch the people scatter like ants.
Last week Erwin MaManus was doing talk on diligence, and I knew that one of my non-believing neighbors would really connect with the subject. I went down and invited him to come, and he immediately said “I can’t afford it right now.” Puzzled at his response, I told him that it was free and that I didn’t want him to even think about giving money in the offering that day. He began to tell me how he had walked to a church when he was 16 the Sunday after his parents got a divorce. He was disparate for answers during that time. After a great service, he was walking out when the pastor stopped him at the door to greet him. The pastor said “We are so glad to have you as a guest, son.” He chuckled and then said, “How bout you dress up a bit next time for our Lord.” He came from a very poor family and all he had was jeans and t-shirts. He has been afraid to step into church since.
Now, everyone might not have that dramatic of an experience, but there is a disgusting religious spirit that is focused on the externals in many “traditional” churches.
P.S. I had a prayer session this morning, and the LORD convicted me about putting titles on my posts. I repent of my untitled ways and return to the straight and narrow. 
August 19th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Nathan - the pants thing is dumb. I believe that the jeans and a t-shirt would not pass SoL muster though, I think I remeber a post about dressing appropriately.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I’m confused. The church doesn’t allow pants and the school doesn’t allow dresses? Unless I’m missing something, I don’t entirely understand the situation.
Nathan, your story of that young man reminds me of something that happened to me when I was twelve. We’d started going to a conservative Baptist church, and the very first Sunday I walked in the door in my jeans and converse, an old man came up to my mother and asked “Is this your oldest son?”
Oh man . . . it’s really hard to “respect one’s elders” when you’re getting sarcastic remarks like that!
August 19th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I feel for you, merry - I remember my grandmother calling me her granddaughter when my hair reached the middle of my back during my freshman year in college.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Chris L,
The funny thing is, at the time I did have rather long hair. It was a lose/lose situation for me no matter what gender I was!
August 19th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
^That’s loose/loose situation! Ha ha.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I don’t mind dressing informally as long as it’s not indecent; it gives people one less excuse not to come to church.
If hospitality is a spiritual gift, I would imagine those inhospitable churches don’t believe in spritual gifts are for today.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
I like going to church dressed as a woman and people make hurtful remarks.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Rick,
They should!
jerry
August 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
So . . . I can’t spell.
I still go that very same, conservative Baptist church. Except now it’s a community church and one of the most hospitable churches in town! Amazing how God works over just a few years. Hardly anyone there bothers with formal dress anymore, either.
Happy ending to my story.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
This is one confused article…
On one hand we have SoL putting down others as “painted girls of Sodom” because of their clothes.
On the other we have a fundy attacking a fundy… that is just hilarious…
On the other hand… I don’t care if someone wants to live by their convictions… so why would SoL put down a school or David Cloud who writes pretty much the same stuff as Slice… but with more actual research…
And lastly, as I ran out of hands… why won’t the girls church just buy her some dang pants that are appropriate… or dress or whatever?
I agree though… run, run away… from fundies… from Slice and anyone else who adds Laws to Grace.
iggy
August 19th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
well, with respect to the pastor who wrote the letter, at least he was seeking counsel…it seemed he didn’t want to make it a moral issue (Cor. 5) the way one of his members wanted to.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Legalism continues to be one of the greatest misrepresentations of Christ throughout church history. Whether it be style of dress, or music type, or worship structure, or hair length, or a thousand other externals it has always been a source of self righteousness and religious law. Chris has made us free from the dictates of the law but yet we seem to be drawn back to it.
If a certain behavior or dress is not immoral than it is a matter of liberty in Christ. And to find that SoL takes a stand against this form of legalism seems rather enlightening. It reveals that regardless where you are on the legalism ladder, there are always those above or below you which of course means YOU are the Biblical standard.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Dress codes in Christian institutions can be helpful, but when it gets to be this complicated, I say forget about it. People shouldn’t be getting kicked out of church or school just because they walked in with hiking boots!
August 19th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
“People shouldn’t be getting kicked out of church or school just because they walked in with hiking boots!”
They should be fined the first time and after that shown the door!
August 19th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Amusingly Ingrid apologizes to Cloud for using a Gerry Rafferty song reference (”clowns to the left”) to his article but doesn’t say a word about an article she felt compelled to pull down from her site slamming Warren for his handling of the Obama/McCain event. roll eyes here.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Can you say “hypocrisy”? Steve Camp, no supporter of Warren, has written a very nice article praising Warren for his balance and hospitality. Credibility is when you speak the truth even when it seems injurious to your overall premise.
Thanks Steve.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
There’s an update on this article. David Cloud realized he made a mistake on not explaining this well. The girl lives in South Asia and is going to a Hindu school.
In which case the having to “wear loose pants” (and I assume not be allowed to wear a dress) makes a lot of sense. It’s very awful for ladies in some countries to show any part of their legs, even below the knee.
It would be interesting to know just where this church is and whether those who believe it’s right to wear dresses are wearing dresses that are long enough to not offend nationals.There are some places where it’s appropriate to wear floor length dresses or loose pants (usually with a knee length top.)
Anyway perhaps it would be best to not add to David Cloud’s burden by further criticism.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
That is, the girl is planning to go to a Hindu school.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
So in essence if the blog world hadn’t jumped on it the entire issue would have been in God’s hands where it belongs.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Ah, that clears up my original question about the completely opposite dress codes the school and church had. That makes soooo much more sense now.
“So in essence if the blog world hadn’t jumped on it the entire issue would have been in God’s hands where it belongs.”
Rick, that’s been true about so many issues blogged about lately. I can think of half a dozen right off the top of my head!
August 19th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
“I find it so ironic that contemporary/post-modern churches are criticized for being focused on external and futile elements in church (lighting, projection systems, coffee bars, etc.). However, in my experience, it is the traditional churches that are obsessed with the externals in the congregation. ”
Opposite sides of the proverbial bad penny.
They are all externals.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Ha ha.
Rick: #12
August 19th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Merry, I’m glad God has brought your church along (though some might call a lack of reverence and apostasy).
Bob Jones U… I have a friend who’s a student there. More power to him. In 1985 I don’t think I would have made it through move-in day. But no one is forced to go there, hopefully, so there is a market for that type of university.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Thanks for the mental image you gave me, me thinks I’m going to need therapy!!
August 19th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
A couple of weeks ago, I had spent Sunday afternoon out working in my yard. I came in, took a shower and threw on a t-shirt and pair of khaki shorts. When I walked into the living room, my wife asked, looking at her watch: “It’s 5:30; you going to church dressed like that?” I thought about it a second, said “yes,” grabbed my Bible and my keys and we went to Sunday evening service.
We walked in and sat toward the back of the auditorium of the church where we have been members the past four years. Within five minutes, two different members made it a point to let me know that “we are not that kind of church. ” I guess I’m not “that kind” of guy.
Funny thing is, I notice that many of our members dress up on Sunday morning, i.e. dresses (women, Rick) and suits and ties or “dockers” (guys). On Sunday evening, it’s Polo shirts or tees and jeans/capris (gender appropriate, of course). My question: What is different about what we do during the AM service than the PM service that we dress differently?
August 19th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Sandman,
Don’t get me wrong, I respect people who choose to go to BJU and choose to live according to those standards. That’s their choice. It’s just that I find the dress code page (and the prominence of the dress code page on their website) extremely entertaining if not slightly unbiblical.
And about my church–it’s funny that when you stop focusing on the “externals”, my church isn’t the least bit irreverent. When it becomes an issue of our hearts, my church was once dead and black but is now blooming and becoming real. Jeans have nothing to do with it.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Keith - first of all why were you working on the Sabbath? Secondly, how dare your wife question you. In the Sunday morning service God is there. In the Sunday evening service God allows you to run it without Him, hence the more casual attire.
Please, my brother, read your Bible!
August 19th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Rick:
Thank you for once again rebuking my unGodliness! How could I have been so blind not to see the error of my ways?! 8^)>
I KNEW there was something different on Sunday nights! Read the Bible? I’m really pretty busy. Can you get that on cassette?
August 19th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Actually, you can get it on cassette still because that’s how far behind the times the church is.
The good news is, you can also get it on cd, mp3 player (not just mp3s, there’s actually a ministry that hands out the bible on the small mp3 players), and I would assume you can d/l it somewhere as well.
Keith, you should keep wearing shorts and a t-shirt every week (even during the winter) just for fun. And you should wear jeans and a polo during the morning service. When people say something, be like “what are you talking about?” And then after they explain, be like “Well if they let you in wearing that (or with that haircut, or with that paint job, etc.)” That would be awesome.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Again, it seems that both Slice and the other fundies seem more happy making a issue out of this… that is their joy I guess.
BUY THE GIRL SOME LOOSE PANTS OR DRESSES and get on with life…
What a waste of worry.
iggy
August 19th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
^We should totally buy the girl and her family some clothes and send them to her. It would set a better example than sitting around commenting about complaining fundies.
Too bad we probably have no way of contacting her.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Keith -
From now on, you should go without the shower…
August 20th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Keith,
you’re a bigger man than I…
I’d give somebody a piece of my mind and never go back.
There’s a clear line between accountability about what matters and the religious need of certain Christians to get into people’s back yards and lives.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:57 am
NC, Corey, and Christian P: I’m already viewed as a “rogue” around there. (My ear is pierced, but I don’t wear the earring any more). Also, I don’t listen to Christian Radio (music) and I STILL have a bunch of CDs of 70s rock and roll. My boys and I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year and I didn’t dare tell anyone around there for fear of being burned at the stake.
Why stay? The preaching is good and it’s one of the view reformed Baptist churches in the area.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:20 am
—ECHOED THE CONDEMNATION of Warren by the ODM community for his so-called “attack” on Christian Fundamentalists everywhere.
—REJECTED by the ODMs as an adequate and misleading answer for what was Warren’s obvious “attack” on Fundamentalists.
—PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE “attack” on Fundamentalists and Fundamentalism by an ODM; no outrage or negative response from the ODM community
“How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye” (Luke 6:42).
“He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Mark 7:6).
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former” (# Matthew 23:23).
R. Abanes
August 20th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Correction: Comment #34 “view” should read “few” (second para)
August 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Merry,
I understand and agree with you’re saying about BJU. I left quite a bit unsaid out of respect for those who have no problem with, and indeed, like the policies. I have problems with certain policies beyond the dress code.
I just couldn’t see myself paying to be controlled to that extent. My temperament won’t allow it; too great a risk of making headlines.
As for church, if we focus on Who should be at the center and moving with Him, we won’t have time to be so territorial and worried about “protecting our borders” with an unhealthy focus on the externals.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Keith,
You should rebuke your pastor for working on Sunday. You rebel.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I already did…they took away my flannel-graph board!
August 20th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Did I miss something? Are they more worried that she is wearing pants than attending a hindu school? Seriously? No one has problem with that?
August 20th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
But her loose pants or a dress… I mean how tough is that really?
Religion is stupid… Faith in Christ will be expressed with love in actions…. like buying clothes for the poor… instead of using them to promote one’s own religious view…
If that D. Cloud follower cared to follow Jesus he would buy her clothes… If Slice was following Jesus, they would buy her clothes.
But both fundies decided to do as the Pharisees of old did… argue over righteousness instead of doing what is righteous.
iggy