Bait & Switch **UPDATED**
One common marketing ploy is the “Bait and Switch.” The strategy is simple. Bait the consumer with an attractive deal then switch them to a higher priced, more profitable item. For example, an appliance store may offer a sale on a certain model but only have a couple in their store. When the consumer comes through the door looking for the bait, they are informed it is sold-out, but an alternative (switch) is offered. This tactic is not limited to sleazy retailers.
CRN has posted an article titled Christian Extremism. It is a repost of another blog – a blog with which I am unfamiliar. Anyway, the post(s) baits with a decades old quote from J. Vernon McGee in which he predicts that true believers in America will eventually have to go underground. Furthermore, McGee “predicted” that part of the reason for this would be attacks on true believers from mainstream denominational churches. This expectation is not surprising given the context in which McGee lived and ministered. It’s also no surprise that ODM sites see this “prophecy” being fulfilled in their blog-time. Funny though – the article then goes on to point out the same old list of names (i.e. - Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Richard Foster, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Doug Pagitt, Erwin McManus, Leonard Sweet, Robert Schuller and Brian McLaren) and the same old list of objections.
Bait: a predictive quote from a saintly radio preacher and author from the recent past… a quote which seems to have come to fulfillment.
Switch: change “mainline denominations” to “evangelical ‘leaders’” and change “attack true believers” to “advance methods we don’t like.”
Bait and Switch.
Here is the list of “attacks” (since this was the verb used by McGee, I will use it too, to show the self-evident silliness of this B&S). [Given the over-sensitivity of some ODM’s, I will add that B&S is shorthand for "Bait and Switch."]
They seek to establish Christ’s kingdom on earth.
They speak of a “return to Eden”.
They espouse a man-centered gospel message.
They often speak of “new frontiers”, “changing times”, “new spirituality”.
They often recommend mystical, occultic practices such as lecto divinia, prayer centering, breath prayers, the labyrinth, meditation, and yoga.
RE: Christ’s Kingdom - short of trying to legislate a theodicy – isn’t this the role of the church… to strive to fulfill the very model prayer of Christ?
RE: Return to Eden – since no context was given, how can you address this accusation other than to say – sounds like Revelation 21 and 22. So it’s easily a biblical allusion.
RE: Man-centered Gospel - is there a more oft-used cliché by the ODM’s? From Christ’s POV the Gospel is man-centered… and so is anything they don’t like.
This list of “attacks” is followed by a list of quotes from the new “Mainstream Denominational Churches.” You can follow the link if you like. Some of the quotes are from people I am familiar with, some are unfamiliar. I concur some have gone too far, others are advocating a practice that is perfectly biblical.
What is constant is the fact that this article, as do most of the ODM type, must rip the quotes out of context and pour into them meanings that the author never intended. This latter fact is comical given the ODM mantra that post-moderns are guilty of making things mean whatever they want… shades of a conversation between the pot and the kettle.
So – bottom line: CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. They may have had some valid points to make if their tactics were more honest and their ability to discern more refined. As it is they once again lump a bunch of people together, label them, and then attack. What makes this attempt more egregious is the use of J. Vernon McGee… it’s not often I am offended on behalf of the bait.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Neil - perhaps a language warning to those of us who have expressed offense at such? Sorry.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Though it’s probably safe to say there are those who will be more bent out of shape that Neil used profanity in his post than with the content.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Neil, I agree with Rick, and I appreciate that his request is as humble as it can be. How about a disclaimer at the top of the post?
August 15th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I’m cringing while waiting for this thread to deteriorate into tit-for-tat “dialogue” on the language issue again.
Thanks Rick and Christian for keeping it simple and civil…I hope things end with your request…and move on to the substance of the post.
Here’s to hoping…
August 15th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I wonder if the ODMs would be so quick to embrace J. Vernon McGee if he were still alive. All quotations come from the McGee’s book Questions and Answers.
Check out what he had to say on the subject of fellowship:
That sounds quite ecumenical to me. Not to mention it rids entrance into the kingdom of God of all those addendums the ODMs love.
Then there’s his view on creation:
Uh oh, no six day creation process here.
Apparently he also rejected the Calvinist notion of the sovereignty of God (much like AW Tozier):
Original sin is out the window:
I can only imagine the hyperbole of the ODMs directed at McGee if he were still ministering.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
He also pastored at the Church of the Open Door, a deliberately interdenominational church focused on evangelism (and in fact was founded by a guy who wrote a book called How I Bring Men to Christ).
I can only imagine the squeals of compromise emanating from the general direction of Apprising [sic] Ministries [sic] if McGee were still among the living.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
OK - to the issue. I find the use of someone’s quote as evidence that even THEY agree with your point is manipulative and even fraudulent, especially when the person is dead. And as you all know, what does it matter what McGee said, I like him and have listened to many of his programs but that does not mean his opinion has any weight to my own.
I just recently rejoiced when I read Chris L. openly arguing a position that he knows is at odds with Rob Bell. How many on the ODM sites sweep under the carpet words and teachings from say Spurgeon, and yet use some of his words as a show that he supports them. Spurgeon thought that believers who baptize infants were papists! Youwon’t hear that.
In the end, it is the idolatry of man plain and simple. And Tozer, Calvin, Whitefield, MacArthur, Ravenhill, and many other oft quoted wise men disagree on some substantive issues. The only person whose words I must give account for is one Rick Frueh, and sometimes he’s a big bag of hot air!!
August 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Well…
at least you know it Rick…
August 15th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Reminds me of a way Campolo once opened a sermon: Right this very minute (insert large number here) children have died of starvation and the church doesn’t give a S**t. And right this very minute all of you are concerned more that a preacher just said s**t than you are about the kids that just died.
Thanks, Rick and Christian P for asking politely and not making a big stink of it.
Bo-
Good research. Don’t ya love irony?
peace.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Hey, I like Dr. McGee. He has some interesting takes on the Bible. That I like to listen to his voice.
He’d probably be rolling over in his grave if he heard about the ODMs and some the issues in church today. In fact, if you listen through his radio sermons long enough, I’m sure he’ll have something to say that would apply. He could be kind of prophetic at times.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
OK - I removed the offending reference. It kinda guts the post of one of it’s comic relief elements, but it was certainly not essential and could be a tangent.
I did not think it offensive nor profane, my apologies for that… it was not my intention to be offensive.
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Yes, thanks for being civil, though I would not have expected anything less from either of them.
Chad, “…making a stink…” apparently your spiritual gift is speaking in puns!
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Bo,
Great research! You are correct, if the ODM’s used thier rip and pour tactics on Dr. McGee he be right (or down) there with all the others they love to content with.
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Rick, that is the way I’ve felt about almost every “ism” out there. There is a line that separates a philosophy or worldview from becoming an idol when taken too far.
Chad,
That’s who I was trying to think of when I made my comment behind Rick. BTW, Rick, my comment wasn’t directed at you, as you noted your concern with a great deal of gentleness and class (you too, Christian P) .
August 15th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Thank you Neil - understanding and forbearance between brothers in Christ. Wow - who knew?? Isn’t that the way our Elder Brother wanted it?
BTW - Jesus once said beware of wolves which I interpret to mean He agrees with me!
August 15th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Thanks for noticing this, Neil. Most people just assume I am full of…. ooops.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Update: Yesterday I posted a prayer request on my blog for my son. Just wanted you all to know he made it through his surgery with flying colors and we are home. Praise God! Thanks for your prayers.
peace.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Oh Chad, you’re so witty.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Ummmm, let’s all pretend my comment #18 came right after comment #16. Because that’s what I was replying to.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
lol Christian. I thought so, bro.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Chad - insinuation of an off color word falls under grace. Writing the entire word falls under law and will increase your coming judgment!!
Don’t ya just hate it when a stuffy fundamentalist spoils all the fun?
August 15th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Hello Chad -
A few observations.
You said:
“CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. ”
It is quite hypocritical for you and others on this site to criticize CRN and others for “beating a dead horse” when this site is almost exclusively a beating of a dead horse. Every post is just about like the last - “Ooo, did you see what Ken (or Ingirid) did today!?! We would never do that because we are the real discernment crowd and we extend grace (except to anyone who advocates for a reformed understanding of the Bible)”
You also said:
“As it is they once again lump a bunch of people together, label them, and then attack. ”
Of course your post is exactly the same thing, as you illustrate earlier by saying “as do most of the ODM type”. That would be a classic lump and label, and of course the whole post criticizes, so that would be the attack.
So, in your own words: “shades of a conversation between the pot and the kettle”.
I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites, but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
OOps, I meant that for the author, who is Neil, not Chad. My apologies.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
“but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.”
Yea, but it’s much more fun here!
August 15th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Forget McGee though I loved that guy…
What about Paul who stated…
Considering all the ODM’s add to the salvation process, I wonder if what Paul stated would be appropriately aimed at the ODM today.
iggy
August 15th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Eric,
I don’t mind being mistaken for Neil. Thank you for the compliment.
I agree with you. If this site only talks about CRN than it truly would be “beating a dead horse.”
August 15th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Iggy,
I’m not sure they “add” to the salvation process. I would say they (lumping them all together for easier attacking): 1) judge on externals not internals, 2) confuse methodology with beliefs, 3) judge from culturally determined basis, 4) pour their own meanings into other people’s words, and 5) refuse to read charitably, and 6) lack the discernment they tout to be their strong suite.
Among other things…
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
If someone called me Neil I would be forced to contact their ISP!
August 15th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Neil,
I would just disagree… which is fine…
I see that many add works righteousness…. or use their own righteousness as the standard for others. Most “mouth” Grace, yet the evidence of their actions seem to show they do not know mercy, grace, forgiveness or loving kindness that is of God. I see that they are mostly focused on the externals and disregard the bible if it stands in the way of “being right” or as I see it, the bible stands in the way of their own righteousness being thrust on others.
This is what those that supposedly came from James did to the Galatians. They added circumcision and told that the gentile must be a Jew…. IOW, the ODM adds whatever they think is “right” and then tells those they deemed wrong that they need to be just like them to be saved. If they are not, then the one “attacked” is demonized and said to not be saved.
Also, just as those Paul talked about in Galatians miss-used the authority of James, ODM’s miss-use Spurgeon, Luther, Calvin and others as their authority… sheesh at least those in Paul’s day used an Apostle! LOL!
So the righteous standard these ODM’s hold up is their own and they want others to be like them…
iggy
August 15th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Iggy,
I see your point. I susposse anytime anyone uses a modifier to question another’s faith; or calls brother in Christ a False Prophet they are indeed judging their faith/salvation.
I hardily agree that they use their own behavior as the standard.
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Eric,
Cool name, by the way. Perhaps I am mistaken but you seem to imply by your comment here that extending grace is not nearly as important as casting judgment. Do you not think that extending grace should be one of our chief “jobs” as a Christian? After all, they will know us by our love.
As for not extending it to the “reformed crowd” I disagree. I have never heard anyone here call a writer at an ODM site a heretic, false prophet, false brother/sister, antichrist, Satan’s minion, hellion, lost, blind guide or a slew of other graceless slurs. However, I need not read more than 3 sentences by your “reformed crowd” to find those labels everywhere. Heretic hunting has become a sport for many of them.
I seriously wonder if any of them would find any joy in being a Christian if the game of dividing and conquering was declared unfit for God’s people (oh wait, it was - Calvary!).
I think I can speak for most of the people who write here when I say that I look forward to the day when we will ALL (the “us’s” and the “them’s”) be rejoicing around the Great Throne together laughing about how truly stupid we really are when it comes to the lofty things of such a mighty God. I would hate to spend eternity with a host of people that I have mocked, judged and damned during my short time on earth while I could have been extending grace and peace to a world that needs to know there is such a thing.
grace and peace,
Chad
August 15th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Rick, I have been called far worse four-letter names in my time
Neil - in college I had a good friend named Neil. Whenever he introduced himself he would say, everytime, “Hi, I’m Neil. I used to stand but now I Neil.” It was so stupid it was funny. I still laugh about that. In fact, I’m laughing now. Ok, stopping now.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Well on the front page there is currently a post about The Beautiful Letdown, a post about noodling, a post about fantasy football, and a post about God’s nature in order and sin being chaos. What was that about every post being the last? Perhaps you need to review the post about team politics.
And of course, that pretty much makes the rest of your “criticism” moot, since it relies on your initial premise for its conclusions.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
“CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. ”
I have many friends that are in the reformed camp… some of them are even… gasp… emerging! Gasp!
Yet, what I find different is that my friends grasp the great and wonderful grace of our God… and use their system to encourage and guide them to be more loving and extend more grace, mercy and love to others.
Meanwhile, the ODM’s use Jesus as a way to abuse, judge and condemn others.
Now, we are called to stand against false teachers… and Paul points out as I have in this thread where the typical ODM goes wrong… I guess that to stand against real false teachers is wrong?
It is not that this site is beating a dead horse… (though Ingrid and Ken’s lawyers may be contacting you for calling them dead horses) they are more like raging bulls in a china shop who care little what damage they do… as they hide behind the Name of Jesus to harm others.
This is unchristian…
Now I do see them as brothers and sisters in Christ… I see them as missing the crucial understandings of the very Gospel they defend… or claim to defend.
iggy
August 15th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Eric,
huh…
RE:I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites, but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.
yes, yes, yes…the standard cry of the sycophant…blah, blah, blah…
whatever, dude.
really.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
I seem to matriculate to blogs that ALLOW COMMENTS. So just in that is found a profound difference and the similarity ends.
You cannot have any iron sharpening iron if there is only one axe and it seems to always be planted in someone’s head other than your own.
Personally two blog ingredients drive me absolutely crazy.
1. Criticizing and demaning and exposing the personal failures of saint and sinner alike.
2. Suggesting a professing believer is not saved.
All the rest I treat as different levels of substance.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Rick,
You word spindler, you. I am going to start a “Things I Wish I Had Said But Rick Did It Better” journal. I will, of course, take full credit.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Iggy,
“hardily” should have been “heartily”…
I heartily agree…
Neil
August 15th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
“I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites . . .”
And those sites make themselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few people . . .
At ODM sites, everyone apparently must agree with the same narrow theological views, or else it seems they will be ostracized. I’ve seen it happen many times. At this site, everyone is accepted who wants to join in conversation, no matter what their theology is. You could join in, too, Eric. After you get to know the commenters and writers here and their individual personalities and beliefs, it may just change your views on a couple of things!
August 15th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Since CRN and others don’t allow comments on their sites, it’s somewhat difficult to criticize them there. The dialogue here at least provides an opportunity to sharpen another’s iron, a meaningful exchange of ideas, unpleasantries and what have you. In fact, Ken, Ingrid, Chris P, Chris R and others who are often critical of this site for opposing them comment here.
On the matter of dead horses: If it were something done and over with, settled and decided, no chance for redress and change anything, that’s a dead horse. That there are people who notice this ongoing pattern of Christians posting supposedly well researched and well thought out commentary that may have at its core an element of truth, but find it’s hard to get to for all the harsh, uncharitable, twisted rhetoric surrounding it.
Third, as a rule, this site does not delete posts. Comments may be moderated based on the behavior and intent of the one commenting, but basically the posts stay to show everyone we can make mistakes or have changes of position, in which case, the original post is appended with an update. This is much different than deleting a post that was embarrassingly wrong in tone and content, act like the whole nasty affair never happened, continue to engage in the same behavior without missing a beat, and then get indignant that someone else would bring up such a thing as a record of the misdeed.
While a person may have a reason for deleting a post, such as wanting to stop the spread of the wrong done, or not allowing comments because the negativity can be overwhelming, it also creates a type of “I pontificate, you listen” mindset.
I look at the Gospels and I don’t see any of the disciples telling Matthew, Mark or Luke to leave out the stuff that showed just how dull and in error they could be. No, there’s no record of Peter asking to have the “Get behind me, Satan” or the denials blotted out. It was written because it happened and the writers were reporting what happened.
No, the horses in question are alive and kicking.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
“You cannot have any iron sharpening iron if there is only one axe and it seems to always be planted in someone’s head other than your own.”
Hey Rick, mind if I save that one for future reference?
August 15th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Neil,
Thank you for picking up my piece at CRN/DefCon. I appreciate the coverage and discussion you’ve provided.
In Christ,
CD
August 15th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
The ultimate bait and switch is found in the Purpose Driven model.
Bait: Come to church, where we will present an entertaining service, where you will be blessed and hear all about how to make your life better, and, through using Christian principles, you can make a difference in your world by discovering your God given SHAPE and participating in the global PEACE plan.
Switch: (to satisfy the gospel call) oh, and you may learn about Jesus and how ‘accepting’ him will empower your life.
To many this will sound over simplistic, but in reality, when we get down to brass tacks, this is what the seeker method is all about.
As to the ‘prophesy’ of J. Vernon McGee, I do not see necessarily this driving the remnant underground. However, I do see this as the apostate church which serves a different Jesus in the name of pleasing man.
As to the emergent church, many of them are not really even the church. I say this in the kindest way possible, but many which I have observed and studied substitute man made spirituality, universalism, many roads leading to God, yoga and other demonic practices to satisfy the sensibilities of those who do not believe Jesus when He says that HE is The WAY the TRUTH and The LIFE. I am sorry to say that these practices, combined with the ecumenism that is becoming the seeker/purpose movement is paving the way for the one world religion that we see in the book of Revelation.
one man’s opinion. Have at me.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
pastorboy,
Your comment is right on target, but I’d argue (and I actually just did here) that emergent/emerging is actually the ultimate bait & switch.
Don’t get me wrong, the flesh peddling of Warrenism is worthy of the sternest of rebukes, but though he denies it by his heteropraxy Warren at least privately affirms orthodoxy - unlike many in the emergent/emerging camp who embrace outright heresy such as Open Theism.
Your opinion as you’ve articulated it here is solidly backed by both scripture and the historical teachings of the church. Keep on fighting the good fight of faith, brother!
In Christ,
CD
August 15th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Hmmm. Sounds something like this guy named Jesus going around healing the sick, raising the dead, feeding the hungry and showing compassion to the scum of the earth, causing thousands to flock to him - why? not because he was telling people who wretched they were but because he was bringing healing and peace everywhere he went.
Jesus never bawked at the great crowds the flocked to him, hoping to just sneak even a touch of his robe or sneak in through a thatched roof. He knew the harvest was plentiful and regretted that the laborers are so few. I would argue that Warren’s ministry and others like them resemble the Kingdom of God far more than those ministries that spend their days throwing sticks.
peace,
Chad
August 15th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Let us all be honest, we all have played bait and switch with God. We promised to surrender fully and follow Jesus Christ only to switch on some level.
All of us.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Agreed, Rick.
Those who are without sin throw the first stone.
August 16th, 2008 at 1:07 am
WOW - two different ultimates in a row… now that’s post-modern.
Are you saying they both do this? Since we all knwo there is a significant difference between Emerging and Emergent.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Everytime the ODMs post they demonstrate their unfitness for posting on the very subjects they claim they have a divine commission to be writing about. And to a certain extent I can understand not understanding emerging culture and theology, that requires a certain amount of submersion in that culture, not to mention reading from a multiplicity of sources, and understanding several different contexts. Although Coram Deo’s grasp seems especially tenuous especially since he seems to think he has a mastery on the subject.
But the failure to understand Warren’s modus operandi is baffling to me. The whole thing is laid out in a single, easily read book (or two books, I suppose if you include Purpose Driven Church), there is only one source for it, Warren deliberately writes in a simple manner intended to communicate in a traditional author/reader dynamic. At some point I suppose I just have to consider that ODMs are malicious readers who have distorted their own ability to understand any communication from anyone outside their own theological eco system. Which really calls into question not just the value of their criticisms of their contemporaries but also their own ability to properly exegete scripture.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:38 am
oy…
talk about the dead horse..
emerging is a larger global sphere of people who are intentionally focused on missiology/ ecclesiology in the 21st century
emergent is a network of relationships in the u.s. that include alot of different people…some with orthodox views, some without.
the difference is that emergent–as the network of relationships it is–doesn’t throw their friends under a bus when we disagree to satisfy people not in the relationships self-righteous need to be obsessed with people they disagree with.
sheeeeeeeeeesh.
just in case it’s lost on some of you…
“a network of relationships” means…gasp!!!!….A NETWORK OF RELATIONSHIPS…
That means, if its still lost on some of you, that it’s NOT a denomination, it’s NOT a “church” per se, it’s NOT anything other than a group of people from a wide range of perspectives on ALOT of things who know each other, listen to each other, encourage each other, admonish and correct each other…
if you don’t see that stuff…it just means you’re not in that relational context and we don’t have to satisfy any of you when it comes to your “concerns” if we’re admonishing and correcting THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT US TO–your obsession with admonishing and correcting itself being deeply indicative of your own serious brokenness and spirit of religion.
phew…there…
again…
August 16th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I say admonish and correct because I’ve witnessed multiple interactions, facilitated them and have been there when even “notables” affiliated with emergent have rebuked each other…
so please don’t bother telling me it’s not true.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Bo
To an extent I agree, yet you comment about the ODM posting is to inclusive - when you say “Every time…”
As we have pointed out here before, there are times that an ODM, even our “favorites” Ken & Ingrid make a valid point… or have a valid point. Often times, though, even when they do the tone and rhetoric are so caustic it over-powers anything relevant they may have to say.
All that to say, I think they do have something relevant to say from time to time.
Neil
August 16th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I would like this thread to keep to the specific topic. In the post I quoted Coram Deo’s objections.
In a sense it’s nearly impossible to address a charge such as “espouse a man-centered gospel message” since this is so vague, so subjective, so cliche, and lacks an object (that is, he doesn’t say whi it is that does this - he gives a list of offendeers and a list of offenses, but never matches them and he cannot mean the whole list does this, that’s just silly).
Further more - what is wrong with building the Kingdom of Christ? What is wrong with using the Garden of Eden as an allusion? What is wrong with saying the times have changed?
Neil
August 16th, 2008 at 9:17 am
No idea. From the very beginning this has been our calling. Paul goes so far as to call us “co-laborers” with God. That is amazing! Jesus taught us to pray for God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven and “thy kingdom come.” Do they think we are suppossed to just sit around and wait?
If by this you mean their objection to speaking of a “return to Eden” I don’t get it either. One caveat, however: Anytime I hear discussion about Eden from those “emergent types” it is never about “returning to” as though things are going to go back to the way they were. Rather, it is a fulfillment of and a NEW creation, one that will surpass even Eden. If “return” language is used it is usually to describe the unhindered, deep, relational aspect that Adam and Eve first had with their Maker.
Nothing, unless you are afraid of change.
I hear this objection a lot. I can understand some of the concerns surrounding this, seeing as how most of this sort of stuff has been co-opted by New Age spiritualists and it also resembles pracitices of Eastern religions. But those objecting seem to think Christianity started in America sometime in the 1950’s. They also can’t seem to understand that Jesus is in the business of redeeming what some might call pagan practices. Even baptism is/was a pagan, occultic practice long before Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize.
In these prayer practices Jesus is the focal point. Historically, Christians have done all sorts of things to be in communion with God at a deeper level. Rather than condemning the lot of them we ought to be investigating what might be missing from our own spiritual lives and how we too might grow in Christ in a variety of ways.
Just some random, opening thoughts.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:28 am
nc,
I couldn’t agree with you more, it is not a church. It is a network of those people who think they know better than God and His Word and the truth that is found therein. Many believe that there are many ways to God, and their leaders encourage such thinking. It is an apostate network of people who, I am sure, may have one or two Christians within but not for long. A true believer could not stay within a place that teaches doctrines of demons even when they do nice things for hungry people.
Neil,
I have read both books, seen them put into practice from the most basic to the most radical extremes. I was a member of the Pastor’s network sponsored by Warren. I have studied books in my masters program by John Maxwell, Eugene Peterson, Bill Hybels (and his cronies) and other authors. I have not formulated this opinion out of ignorance. I have formed it out of reading the source books, observing from within and without the churches that practice it, and watching Warren and others in the news (The newest TIME article is telling). The ultimate bait and switch is found in many of these churches, who are promised by Warren a fool proof method of getting lots of buts in the pews where you don’t preach Christ, the cross, blood, repentance, sin, death, wrath, or judgement. You keep it simple with finances, sex, and childrearing. Add it together and you have an HUGE apostate church.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:32 am
PB-
Who? Who thinks they “know better than God” and in what way? Prove this.
Who are these “many”? What, specifically, do these “many” teach that says there are many ways to God? Prove it.
These ambiguous, generalized charges are pointless and do nothing but show just how little you know of what your condemning.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:48 am
PB,
honestly…your bitterness about not getting Chris P’s job is shining through.
You don’t know anything about the people that are part of that network….
you really don’t.
You may take issue with the published work of Doug Pagitt and Brian Mclaren. Guess what? I do to with some things they say, but that’s not the same thing.
The fact you said the things you just did only further demonstrates your self-righteous ignorance.
Then again, given that Chris P got the job, self-righteous ignorance is now a fruit of that spirit.
If you actually got to know all the people that I know, you wouldn’t be able to say the things you say.
How does it feel being a man-centered sycophant?
August 16th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Pastorboy,
You are a perfect example of why education is not a panacea of much of anything except pride.
What has always struck me is how profoundly ignorant of the claims of emerging folks the critics tend to be.
For example, one of the largest topics of emerging conversation is that what is being taught and practiced isn’t new, but is rather reviving practices of historic Christians that has been let drop to the wayside in the last hundred years. Meanwhile emerging critics have as part of their metanarrative that emerging churches are a profoundly new permutation and therefore are a break from historic Christianity. I’ve never seen a critic address this particular topic, probably because it cuts off at the knees their belief in what they themselves are, and views ODMs and their ilk as the interloper. Or perhaps its just because most emerging critics haven’t taken the time to actually listen to what they’ve decided vehemently criticize.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:57 am
I am so weary of these hearing these baseless claims by people who won’t take the time to listen to the very people they are judging. PB, I don’t know if they teach you this in your so-called Masters course or not, but it is ALWAYS wise to understand and know the position and the context from where a person is coming from before you even begin to offer a critique. You and other ODM’s show time and time again your intellectual dishonesty when you skip this very important part of honest dialog and debate.
Mike Ratlliff was going on and on in his blog about how Rob Bell denies the virgin birth. When pressed, he admitted that he hasn’t even read Bell’s stuff but he has many “trusted friends” who have and he has read their critiques. When I quoted direct from Bell himself how he affirms the virgin birth and the historic doctrines and creeds of the church he STILL refused to retract his lies. He would rather believe his “friends” understanding of another person rather than listen to that person first.
You can see that for yourself here: http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/rob-bell-the-pastor%e2%80%99s-task-of-discernment-and-my-heart/
After this, Mike blocked me from his blog. Talk about being scared of truth.
I seriously do not know if your (generally speaking) just plain ignorant or if you are just so full of hate that you refuse to see any good in anyone whom you have already predetermined is an apostate. Honestly, I hope it is the former over the latter. It is much easier to forgive and overlook ignorance.
It should be very easy for you to prove that MANY leaders show they know more than God or the Bible and that they believe there are many paths to God. I look forward to seeing your “sources.”
peace,
Chad
August 16th, 2008 at 10:11 am
it’s ok to disagree…even vigorously…
but good heavens…
talk about mischaracterizing your “enemy”…
even if you disagree doesn’t mean you get to “bear false witness”….
Some experiences of talking past Tony Jones in a non-conversation doesn’t mean you understand what’s happening.
I’ve been immersed in many encounters with many people who are part of that network and they are, by and large, theologically sound.
They regard the people who get the attention as being provocateurs, friends, etc. but they certainly don’t walk lock-step with all their views.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Chad,
This is easily shown.
Samir Salmonovic and his Faith House. Supported by EV, given props by Pagitt, McLaren, Jones, etc. A church, a Mosque, a Synagogue. All three monotheistic religions under one roof. Finding Jesus in the ‘Other’. Denying the exclusivity of Jesus as Savior, Lord, and GOD.
Pagitt’s own Solomons’s Porch. Yoga instead of Sunday morning services. Yoga is a satanic based demonic worship. Acceptance of ‘the other’. Promotion and support of homosexual causes. Promotion and support of man-centered arts, and glorification of that above God. Promotion of polytheism, universalism, and other isms through either silence or tacit approval within church.
EV, and the general promotion of the ancient practices: These ancient practices are generally of the Roman Catholic mystics including monks. This is not the practice of the real ancients- Paul, Peter, James, John. We avoid their teachings, which include condemnation of gnostic heresy and practices that do not include Christ at their core instead of as an afterthought. We are called to be of sound mind and of sober judgement, not to empty our mind and mumble repeated words and phrases to juice ourselves up into some sort of altered spiritual state.
Need any more Chad?
I can go on!
August 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Good, because you haven’t even started. In your Masters levels studies haven’t they taught you what first hand research is?
August 16th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Wow. That’s simply amazing.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Yeah, Chad, Mike has always been a pretty ‘good’ team player. Why confuse me with the truth when the lies of my friends are so much more appealing?
August 16th, 2008 at 10:27 am
PB-
At first glance at your post I see nothing. You claim that MANY emergent leaders claim they know more than God and the Bible and that they believe there are many paths to God. You haven’t even gotten close to proving that. All you have done is tried to prove your piont by making them all guilty by association. Sorry, that doesn’t work in a world of adults who care seriously about representing other human beings rightly and justly and fairly.
This is simple, PB. If I said, “Oprah believes there are many paths to God,” and you asked me to prove it I could take you to several video casts of her saying exactly that. I wouldn’t need to show you what Dr. Phil says or thinks Oprah thinks.
Try to use primary sources, PB, or it’s all just smoke.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Bo -
No kidding. And did you catch his flip, “here’s Bell’s stupid comment…” after I showed him how mistaken he was? Rather than be humble and say, “gee, I guess he does believe in the virgin birth” he gets angry and calls it all “stupid.” Sad.
Chris L-
Yep. Christianity would be such a bore if we couldn’t divide and conquer.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Yoga is a form of exercise that some have used for pagan practice, but that doesn’t make it “satanic based demonic worship”.
Tell me, PB - which body positions are ontologically evil?
August 16th, 2008 at 10:36 am
lol.
PB-
I am choosing not to address, for now, your aversion to various spiritual practices. I know you hate anything that smacks of Catholicism or Eastern othodoxy but that is your hang up, not God’s. For now, I am interested to hear your primary sources that prove your accusations that MANY emergent leaders know more than God and believe any or many paths get you to God.
peace.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Oh so because, Pagitt’s church has a Sunday night service, they’re bad news. Where can I sign up for this Masters Level research?
August 16th, 2008 at 10:51 am
yeah…cuz church history jumps from the apostles to the middle church and some of its excesses…
PB…your understanding of church history is…lacking.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:54 am
RE: emergent
yes..3-4 people out of thousands…
that’s the litmus test.
sorry, PB, sycophantic drones don’t comprise emergent village. that’s you and your ODM heroes.
talk about projection.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:00 am
sometimes PB is so far off it is ridiculous… I wish he was rational enough to have a real exchange with.
But man talk about a pack of lies and slander against Samir and Pagitt.
Samir preaches Jesus and talks about looking for Jesus in the other meaning that God is at work in the unbeliever leading them to JEsus… PB lies and twists this to be something evil… calling the wooing and calling of Jesus and the Holy Spirit demonic…
He then states that Pagitt’s church is all about Yoga… I think they have a Yoga class, but I think one would be surprised how “normal” his church is. They have teaching, and guest speakers… they use… gasp Bibles… my guess is that PB has never actually done any research or listened to anything Paggit has taught at Solomon’s Porch.
Really PB lies so much it and it is so sad. Liar and slanderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
My prayer is for him to stop sinning and repent… to come to Jesus and leave his legalistic and hateful ways… to learn the Way of Jesus and of God’s loving Kindness… than PB not have so much contempt for GOd’s loving Kindness and extend grace, mercy and love to others instead of lies, slander and hate…
I pray that PB stops using Jesus to harm and attack others… that he stops misusing Jesus to judge and condemn others…
In Jesus Name,
iggy
August 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am
yeah, yeah…Jesus is your hero…
August 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am
iggy,
isn’t ironic that PB’s guru, Ken, calls emergent a cult?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am
NC,
In as humble a way as possible, I will stand against any of you or your cronies when it comes to church history. That is my undergrad degree, friend, and a personal passion of mine. May I say from that study that there is nothing new under the sun, the gnostics that think they have secret knowledge are still running around and are rampant in the EV ‘network’ of churches. Where that is truly dangerous is when these tares end up in mainline and ‘evangelical’ churches.
Joe,
Long time no see! I guess your vacation is over! I am glad to see you back! I didn’t say Sunday night services are bad, I said practicing yoga in a ‘church’ on sunday morning, worshiping pagan deities, is bad.
Chris L and Chad,
Yoga is a form of occult worship that some ‘christians’ enjoy using for stretching and health etc. However, you cannot remove the demonic pantheistic worship from it. This is a major practice of the Hindu faith, it is used for worship of many gods, and if you ask a Hindu, or a true yoga practicioner, they will tell you that you cannot remove the spiritual significance from the different positions. What pose is ontologically evil? All of em.
Bait and switch? Yep. Emergents call it ancient/future when in reality it is Church/Paganism
August 16th, 2008 at 11:02 am
I want to thank PB for pointing me towards Samir Selmanovic. I had not heard of him until now and am grateful for the chance to read up on him a bit. Sounds like he, a Christian, is doing some wonderful, exciting things to help spread the hope and peace the gospel begs us to embrace.
Here is an interesting interview between Samir and McLaren. In it you can’t miss how Chirst-centered McLaren’s vision really is.
http://samirselmanovic.typepad.com/faith_house/2007/09/interview-with-.html
I applaude McLaren for engaging Samir in this discussion and his prayers and support for anyone willing to bring healing to a world ravaged by division, secrets, religiousity and triumphalism.
peace.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:03 am
I really don’t know where to start, this is like trying to explain how a nuclear reactor works to someone who just had electricity put in their house.
Chad has already pointed out the flaws in how you deal with Church history. What’s worse is your ignorance of the emerging conversation. To act like EV has been anything more than a minor footnote is an example of ignorance that goes beyond my ability to express. I would suggest that you take the time to understand the people you’re criticizing before you. Of course that would require actual time and effort.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:08 am
PB-
I guess you can’t remove the pagan goddess or bull worship out of baptism than either, huh? Was your baptsim unto Jesus or the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu?
..from http://www.discoveret.org/lcoc/news/00n0509.htm
Anyways, still waiting for those primary sources which prove your accusations. Unlike Mike Ratliff, here you won’t be able to just call something “stupid” and then ban myself and others because you don’t like what you read.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:09 am
test. I just posted something and it isn’t here - did it go to moderation perhaps?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Iggy,
You are lying about me.
I have attended three services at Solomons Porch.
I have blogged about one. The Bible was used, but it was misquoted.
I have quoted repeatedly Samir on my own site. How can you twist his own words? He believes that Jesus can be found in other religions. He believes ultimately that you can be a Muslim and go to heaven without repentance and faith in Christ.
Iggy, you are being fooled.
There are many emergents that desire an experience of Christ without the Lordship aspect. I admire their desire to make this world a better place, to love the unlovely. But they remove the aspect that is most important and central- WHO is Jesus? Why did He come? Is he the only way to heaven?
Sadly, Samir would say no. So would his mom, who hides her faith as she worships in a mosque to save her own neck. This is where he gets his example, and his desire to make all monotheistic religions one.
I have gone to SP more than once, heard the messages. One conversation was based on the beatitudes. LOOSELY. The others were a comparison between the life of a child and the life of Jesus. On Muslim/Jewish/Christian
idolalatryiconography. I even witnessed a communion service so much like Paul’s description of the Corinthian service that I had to leave the room it was so noisy and obnoxious.So get it straight, Iggy. After all, I am coming to your church soon.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:13 am
PB-
Still waiting on your primary sources that prove MANY emergent leaders believe they know more than God and the Bible and that there are many paths to God.
Thanks.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Chad,
Samir Selmanovic was a challenge for me. In a good way. I had to listen a few times myself to catch what he meant… so when someone like PB states lies as he did about Samir, I can tell they did absolutely no research but just read one of KS’s “mistakives” and believed the BS he said.
ODM’s seem to be on the level if not worse than the National Enquirer… worse because they claim to be christian and state the truth… but it is lies wrapped in the veneer of truth… or as Hank Hanegraaff says it, “lies in the skin of truth”‘. What they say sounds good on the surface, then if you dig deeper you find a profound lack of knowledge in Christian History, doctrines… and most of all the actions from the fruit that is of Jesus.
I see Jesus as loving toward sinners and the unlovable… and angry at the judgmentalism and condemnation of the Pharisee… ODM’s desire that others be like them and judge and condemn others and justify their unloving actions.
I see these people as sick… if not hinging on demonic.
iggy
August 16th, 2008 at 11:14 am
This is absolute bluster on your part pastorboy. You don’t really believe this, and you said it because it made you feel like you were an ODM superhero, fighting for the culture of your grandfather by pretending to be fighting for the faith.
This is easily demonstrated with this question: if someone accidentally or unknowingly positions their body in a yoga pose are they worshiping a pagan god?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Bo,
I can write at length, and have done so, in other places.
This is a forum focussed on bait and switch.
We can take this to e-mail, and I can produce VOLUMES.
But if you just want to snipe, I understand.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Careful, PB, you just might be on the verge of disproving yours and everyone elses baptisms…
PB, was your baptism in Christ or was it rooted in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu? Since you seem to argue that nothing is redeemable, even yoga, than this must hold true for the ancient practice of baptism, right?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Chad:
http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
TONS of em. Too many to list here, just because this is a OP about bait and switch.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:17 am
PB,
I promised not to address you anymore…
Yet,
You have a multitude of witnesses who agree you are a slanderer and an liar… please stop.
So…
have a great day and stop lying about me and others.
iggy
August 16th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Pastorboy surrenders in two consecutive posts, glad to see this is over.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Chad,
Watch out, your ignorance is showing.
Mine is based on the command of Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus command us to go, make disciples, baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
When I am baptized in the name of the triune God, that means I am baptized in His name. Just because pagans dip in water and name their false gods (like yoga practicioners do) does not make the practice evil. What makes the practice eveil is it was founded by them for the worship of their false deities, and the mind emptying that happens with the rhyhmic breathing allows demonic spirits to enter in.
Much like the breathing Rob Bell promotes.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:20 am
huh…thanks PB for looking into my mind and heart. Maybe there could be a power sharing arrangement for you Chris P…
I don’t think there’s any secret knowledge, etc. etc. and neither do any of my friends. If you’re talking about Brian McLaren…then keep it about him…but you don’t know these people in all these “networks”…
So that demonstrates right there you’re talking out of your backside.
btw, There are no EV networks of “churches”….it’s a network of personal relationships.
But keep digging that hole PB…
I don’t have any cronies, so again I don’t know what you’re talking about precisely because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
another thing: “ancient practices’…yeah, that fasting, praying the psalms at regular intervals throughout the day for sake of punctuating our day with intentional prayer, retreats for silence and listening to the voice of God in Scripture and prayer (something you clearly need to do…i.e. stop running your mouth)…
yeah…those evil, pagan things.
honestly, PB, you have nothing to stand on but your cultish assertions of the party line of your guru (Ken), High Priestess (ingrid), and the various blogging imams and their propaganda.
frankly, if this represents your “masters” level work, I’m not too confident in your undergrad training either.
seriously…cronies?
Who talks like that?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:23 am
breathing that let’s demons in?
And YOU’RE critical of the middle ages?
I guess body piercing is also bad because it creates more entry points into the body too?
Yeah…and the “charismatics” are the culprits…
yeeeeeesh…
August 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
PB-
Ok, I really am convinced now that you are just ignorant and do not understand how to have an intelligent, reasonable, honest conversation.
Linking to a blog is NOT a primary source.
If what you claim is true, and there are LOTS of these smoking guns, it should be VERY simple for you to offer up even ONE of them. So please, once more, where it the smoking gun that you claim proves that MANY emergent leaders believe they know more than God and the Bible and that there are MANY paths to God?
This isn’t Mike Ratliff’s blog where you can just call something or someone stupid and then ban them for being insistent on the truth.
I would really like to see all this proof from the horse’s mouth that justifies your judgments.
Thanks,
Chad
August 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
NC
Anytime you want to discuss church history at length, or any of your compadres, friends, peers, whatever, my blog is open for all comments, even when they do display ignorance.
Iggy,
You lie about me. I won’t sue you for slander, but it would be a demonstration of Christ in you if you would please stop it.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:25 am
the only thing that makes me sad is that PB will use this exchange to prove that “the world hates him” because he follows Jesus…
excuse me while I go puke.
Actually, puking might be good…isn’t that how the demons come out?
August 16th, 2008 at 11:27 am
PB,
It’s the least you could do since this site lets you display yours all the time.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Okay, Chad.
You will have to take this up with Chris L