the solution

Posted by Nathan on Aug 11th, 2008
2008
Aug 11

Houston, we have a problem. But I’ll attack you if you try to fix it.

65 Responses

  1. John Hughes Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    Nathan,

    Second link does not work.

  2. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Yeah, but we know what it’s of, sadly.

    Christian Anti Porn ministries are da Debul!

  3. Nathan Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    fixed

  4. Chris P. Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    Entities like xxxporn church, the mega church, seeker friendly, emergent blah, blah, blah, exist in only for themselves. They are self perpetuating through the seeking of attention, and offer no solution to any problem. Kind of like this blogsite.

  5. Sandman Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    They are self perpetuating through the seeking of attention, and offer no solution to any problem. Kind of like my comments on this blogsite.

    Just to keep things honest.

  6. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    Chris P,

    Your comments have never even attempted to help us out or bring the ’solutions’ you so greatly seem to desire on this website. So if there is a problem with us, or with the anti porn ministries, or any of the other groups of Christians you slandered, you my friend are doing absolutely nothing to help the problem. Nothing.

    Until you see that, judging by your comments, you’re the epitome of what 2 Peter 1:5-9 tells all of us Christians to watch out to not become like. I hope our prayers for you will be answered in your favor.

    Joe

  7. Jerry Hillyer Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    I know I’ll probably get in trouble for this, but…I…I…I…I…I…I…I….

    That about sums it up doesn’t it?

    The reason ‘I’ cannot see any value is because ‘I’ don’t have the problem.

    jerry

  8. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    You do not become a believer in Jesus to get off porn, or help your marriage, or anything else. You become a believing follower of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and when born again you have both eternal life and a new life in Christ. The sancitification process only begins then.

  9. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    You do not become a believer in Jesus to get off porn, or help your marriage, or anything else.

    Which in a sense is…

    You become a believing follower of Christ for the forgiveness of sins

    Those things which suck the life from us and distance us from our Maker (i.e. porn, failing marriage, drugs, etc.) are often the things that bring us to Jesus broken and begging for life. I would not say that you don’t become a believer in Jesus to get off porn or to get our of jail or anything else - sometimes God uses those very types of things to move us into a life with Him.

    peace,
    Chad

  10. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    Rick -
    But I do agree that we do not “sell” Jesus to others as a 12 step program. After saying the above I saw it from a different perspective. Perhaps that is what you were saying?

  11. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    XXX Church isn’t doing what you’re decrying, Rick (and I agree that what you describe isn’t the right way to look at it). Can you prove that they are though?

  12. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    Or, like when going to porn conventions, are using the anti porn as a hook to get the porn stars et al to come and hear the Gospel. No different than our beloved Gospel tracts or WOM ‘hook them in’ games.

  13. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    The crux of the matter still remains though. The ODMs seem to cry out against these ministries, and yet offer up no real solutions to fix the problems they see with the porn pandemic in this country and the problems they see with the ministries that rise up to combat that.

    Now if someone can prove ministries like XXX Church don’t preach the Gospel according to 1 Cor. 15:1-6, then they can begin to make a case.

  14. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    I find many of the so called “hooks” at the xx church to be sensationalistic, provocative, crass, and sometimes just base. Only God can judge their fruit, but Jesus said “If I be lifted up”.

    The comics and cartoons and the overwhelming sexual content is way over the top. Millions of men and women have been released from the captivity of pornography with a much more Christ centerd approach.

  15. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Well, I don’t know that. I only see what I see Rick. And if God is using XXX, then so be it. If God uses other ways to reach sinners stuck in porn (and He most definitely does), so be it. I’m sick of not trusting the Spirit to be Himself, personally.

    You’re own testimony is a great example of the possibilities to me Rick.

    Joe

  16. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    “Christ centered” approach is judged by the eyes of God only Rick, other than that, I think it’s opinion on our part.

  17. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Rick,
    And the many who are reached by XXXchurch or other alternative ministries may never have been reached by what you call a “”more Christ-centered approach.” Everybody is different. I trust the Holy Spirit is capable of drawing any and all through a wide variety of means, many of which may not speak directly to me or that I don’t even approve of. I thank God He does not approach humanity with cookie-cutter but meets us each where we are.

    peace.

  18. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    People do not need Jesus because they are addicted to pornography, they need Jesus as Savior of their souls. I was saved because I was confronted with the claims of Christ.

    I have seen one of their puppet shows where they actually use an unsaved porn star to tell the kids porn if for ADULTS. Talk about your mixed messages. This to will one day pass.

  19. Jerry Hillyer Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Unless I have misunderstood, Nathan’s point is simply that there is a certain sense of hypocrisy on display at SOL and WOM. Unless I have misunderstood, that’s the gist of it.

    jerry

  20. Paul C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Where’s the hypocrisy on this issue?

    SOL points out there’s a pandemic (along with dozens of other sources, including those that are secular).

    WOM brings up a ridiculous method being used to attempt to reach out to porn stars with a message that “porno is OK for adults, but not for kids”. Ponder that for a moment - compromise, not the gospel.

    There’s no hypocrisy here at all because XXXchurch is using gimmicks, unrepentant porn stars, puppets et al to convey their message.

    A God-called man is instructed to: “Preach the word: be instant in season, and out of season…”

  21. Ingrid Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Jerry,
    You’re quick to throw the label of hypocrite around, aren’t you? I not only pointed out the porn problem, I linked to a ministry that is doing something about it in a way that is genuinely helping others. A woman emailed this morning about the help that Mike Cleveland’s work has been to her. Just because I disagree with the methods of XXX church does not make me a hypocrite. Surely there is room for a difference of opinion on the best method of combating porn addiction, or must everyone agree with you to avoid the charge of hypocrisy?

  22. iggy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    Ingrid,

    There is lots of room for opinions, the difference in how that opinion is presented… is it edifying? Is it an attack?

    The point is that there is fruit from xxxchurch.com.

    Here is the challenge. If you name one porn star who came out of the business by WoTM… I will name 4 that have through xxxchurch.com…

    Up to the challenge? Seems pretty simple to me and stacked to your favor.

    iggy

  23. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    I totally disagree with the xxx church approach.

    I are a hypocrite.

    I am in the same camp with Ingrid on this.

  24. iggy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    Paul C,

    That is not xxxchurches message at all, that was Ron Jeremy’s. Remember they debate each other…. xxxchurch in against porn completely…

    So stop spreading rumors against your brothers in Christ please.

    iggy

  25. Paul C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    So stop spreading rumors against your brothers in Christ please.

    Iggy, did you listen to the actual commercial spot? Where do you hear the bold Pete the Puppet defy the legendary Jeremy and clarify that porn should be off limits for all? Come on Iggy - you should be in politics.

    I am not saying they are pro-porn BTW, but they compromised in what appears to be their awe in landing such a brand name as Jeremy, so allowed this in their spot.

    The point is this: this was a commercial spot that featured Jeremy as a means to communicate their message. Period.

  26. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    Having Ron Jeremy speak in a church advertisement is like having the Burger King make a MacDonald’s commercial - it just doesn’t make sense.

    What’s next? Having Michael Vick tell the kids dog fighting is only for adults. Goofy and wrong.

  27. iggy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    Rick and Paul,

    TO have Ron Jeremy was a major coup. IT was produced by a former porn directer and was not a”church” advertising but a video that was used to develop discussion. Now, what you also over look is that this was an initial project that a christian ministry and a porn star did together… think about that for a moment. What a miracle that God could orchestrate such a thing.

    Did they do things wrong… yes… even in my own eyes, yet… where is all this grace that so many claim for themselves that seem to lack extending to others… including xxxchurch.

    Now, again the fruit is there. Name one porn star that came out of hte business because of the WoTM products… or even it’s ministry… and I will give 4 ex-porn stars who now love because of xxxchurch. com.

    Come on… take the challenge… I may ever toss in 6 to your one.

    Again, they had a rough start. I agree, but since then why can no one acknowledge they have grown and done a few things right?

    iggy

  28. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Iggy - I really do not care what they do, God will be the final judge. But the “fruits” don’t justify the means. There are plenty of secular support groups that have helped people escape that industry both from inside it, and as a voyeur.

  29. iggy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Rick,

    The fruit of salvation was proof throughout scripture… So I am not sure why you would toss it out…

    Show me a scirpture that states salvation is not a fruit of salvation.

    iggy

  30. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    A know personally Buddhists that have had a “born again” experience when they converted to Buddha. Does that “fruit” substantiate the power of Buddha? Fruit without truth substantiates nothing.

    Getting free from porn is not always the same as being born again in the Spirit.

  31. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    Thank God for Chris P!
    I mean where would the Church be without the apparently inept Holy Spirit finally admitting his failures and delegating his job to Chris?

    Is it possible for you to pass along your new found ability to know the hearts and minds of people?

    Seriously.

    SHEEEEEEEEEEYEEEEEEEEESH!

    For the record:
    I’m not into xxxChurch. I just don’t care about them.
    Are they over the top? Sure.
    But I still don’t care.
    Are they ham-handed? Yep.
    I still don’t care.

    Why?
    Cuz for every xxxChurch there are pulpits and radio “ministries” filled with just as much over the top, ham-handed garbage and the sky hasn’t fallen on anyone.

    Guess what?
    Jesus is still Lord.

    Handle it.

    Would I recommend xxxChurch to help someone in my parish?

    Probably not because those issues require deep pastoral skill to shepherd people through the complexities of human sexuality/identity issues. It requires face to face mature discipleship.

    BTW,
    Where did Todd Friel come from and why, oh why, oh why, is he qualified to be a voice of authority for the middle class soccer moms who’ve confused their social respectability with true Christian faith?

    And people say it’s the “emergents” who’ve feminized the church….

    again:

    SHEEEEEEEEEESH.

  32. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    one more thing:

    Ingrid asked if there’s room for disagreement…
    Absolutely.

    But Friel (again, whoever he is?) isn’t simply disagreeing (and vigorously so)…he’s aping Rush Limbaugh’s affectations while he gets on his high horse.

    He’s implying that Jesus himself would just be so shocked…

    I dunno, but it seems to me that Chris P has some competition for the job slot of the Holy Spirit.

    Who knew God, in all God’s omniscience, would still apparently have a candidating process?

    ;)

  33. iggy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    I am not sure why Chris P. even can post here… all he does is mouth off insanity then goes away… truly his comments are only self serving as I never get a thing from them… even if they remotely have anything to do with the article.

    He just sounds like someone doing a bad Charlie Manson impression.

    iggy

  34. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    Makes sense though…

    I mean, a spot on the Trinity is a big deal.

  35. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    For the record, Todd Friel is fingernails on a blackboard to my ears. :cool:

  36. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    Seriously…

    who is that guy?

    Why, why, why does his opinion matter?

  37. Sandman Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    I have to agree with Ingrid, Rick and Paul C on this. I may disagree with them on what to do about it.

    The ends don’t justify the means when you, as an ambassador of Christ, fulfill a legitimate need in an illegitimate way.

    Jesus was tempted in the same way by Satan, and instead of taking a shortcut, Jesus went the Calvary route.

    Sad to say, XXXchurch used the hedgehog and the message was compromised. Okay, kids, porn is for adults, so stay away from your parents’ stash. (Unsaid: Adults, party on, but keep it away from your kids.)

    Perhaps, for the sake of discussion, it does take all kinds, and we have XXXchurch out there in uncharted territory hanging it all out over the edge trying to reach people with some serious problems. Mistakes are going to happen. Wrong moves will be made. It happens even in churches that think they are playing it safe on the old paths.

    I don’t think we need to call down a reckoning on them, or make a whole bunch of harsh pronouncements against them. But I do believe it would be reasonable to approach them in a spirit of love and instead of accusing, ask them what were they hoping to accomplish, and why they ruled out a less extreme approach that would send a mixed message. In other words, give them room to recognize they could’ve gone about things in a different manner. Don’t be the reason behind a hardened heart. I have to admit to hardening more than a few hearts acting on conviction and a sense of righteous indignation.

    At the same time, XXXchurch leadership needs to be able to recognize that just because they’re the only ones doing what they do the way they do it, doesn’t mean they’re beyond compromising themselves and their witness by their actions.

    I understand the need for grace amongst ourselves, but if all we do is focus on grace that isn’t tempered by justice, you end up mushy, unable or unwilling to correct anyone. And yes, if justice isn’t tempered by grace and mercy, you end up with rigid, harsh legalism, which isn’t any better.

  38. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    He host a radio show that specializes in mocking people and providing entertainment for the self righteous reformed crowd. He and Rush were separated at birth.

    He and his brand of Christianity seriously misrepresents Christ and His redemptive love. It is great sport to spit on people from high atop the doctrinal tower called Mt. Hubris.

  39. Sandman Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    Rick, with all due respect, do the ad homs really add anything to the conversation?

  40. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    Guess what?
    Jesus is still Lord.

    nc,
    I always enjoy your spot-on candor.

  41. Jerry Hillyer Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    Ingrid,

    You wrote: “You’re quick to throw the label of hypocrite around, aren’t you?”

    My response: You are quick to fill the label.

    Sorry if that offends you. But the only reason you don’t think xxxchurch is “genuinely helping others” is because they aren’t helping you. You might think differently if you were the one desperate for help and that was available.

    jerry

  42. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    When I hear believers laugh at people and construct clips that provide launching pads for demeaning mocking and effervescent head wagging at other’s misforunes, I reject the entire premise out of hand.

    I much prefer the John MacArthur way of presenting truth even if I disagree with some of the truth.

    Sand - those are not ad homs - they are literary gems meant to communicate a strong distaste via flowery prose. :lol:

    “Bottom feeders” are more like ad homs! :lol:

  43. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    As the present now
    Will later be past
    The order is
    Rapidly fadin’
    And the first one now
    Will later be last
    For the times they are a-changin’.

    Amen.

  44. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    honestly,

    Ad homs would not be descriptive of Rick’s statements.
    His statements are colorful renderings of his assessment of the man’s actions.

    If he said:

    “Todd Friel has nothing to say because he’s clearly an idiot…”

    Then you’d have a point.

    Even if Mr. Friel were, in fact, an idiot, because such a statement would have nothing to do with the argument/issue itself.

  45. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    nc - what if I said “You’re a piece of crap” and you need Jesus? Is that ad hominem?

  46. nc Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

    Rick,

    hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    To some that just might be the bare facts….

    ;)

  47. amy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    The message of Pete the puppet video is unbiblical. It won’t “fix” anything. And even if it would “fix” something, it’s still unbiblical, and something that deserves criticism.

    God hates lies, and he hates this lie:
    Kiddies, wait until you’re adults to find out about “porNography” (say in the tantalizing voice of the puppet.)

    THAT is the underlying message of the video.

    I personally find “Way of the Master” radio irritating in style. It’s too hype, or mocking, or something. I don’t think that it’s wrong to criticize the Pete the Puppet video - but I don’t enjoy the way they do it.

  48. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    I have to admit to a total agreement with Amy’s comment. I am now in agreement with Amy, and in the same camp as Ingrid.

    Am I backsliding?? :)

  49. amy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Rick,
    Earlier I said “Amen” to one of Chad’s comments, but you disagreed. Now what does that mean :) .

    “Backsliding” - I can’t help but picture a video I watched over and over again, of a couple of my kids going down a camp waterslide . . . sliding on their “backsides.” What fun. May your “Backsliding” give you great joy.

  50. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    Earlier I said “Amen” to one of Chad’s comments, but you disagreed. Now what does that mean

    That would make you a heretic :)

    Come on in, the water’s warm.

  51. Sandman Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    No, Rick, it means it’s time to up your meds. ;-)

    And you’re running around comparing people to Rush, don’t try to sneak that one past me. Be nice. (Insert smiley here)

    I find myself agreeing with Amy again today. Sometimes it all in the delivery.

  52. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    “Earlier I said “Amen” to one of Chad’s comments, but you disagreed. Now what does that mean?”

    It means I am attempting to protect you! :cool:

    Just kidding, Chad.

  53. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    It means I am attempting to protect you!

    Just kidding, Chad.

    LOL! And who said chivalry was dead?

  54. amy Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    Chad,
    I just decided to look at your website and am totally amazed at where it took me . . . to Matt’s dancing video . . . and to a remote and small place I’ve worked for many years and just visited recently.

  55. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    The past few weeks have birthed this in my own life. Perhaps some of it should address us all.

    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/08/youre-just-fooling-yourself-you-say-you.html

  56. Chad Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    Amy,
    Where at? Small world, eh? Feel free to leave a comment for me there.

    peace,
    Chad

  57. Joe C Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    Thanks for that post Rick. Really. I left you a comment.

    Joe

  58. Neil Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    Entities like xxxporn church, the mega church, seeker friendly, emergent blah, blah, blah, exist in only for themselves. They are self perpetuating through the seeking of attention, and offer no solution to any problem. - Chris P

    I agree, once a church reaches 1,000 in attendance they always give up the Gospel - that’s why I make sure we stay at or below 999.

    And, of course, if someone shows any interest in the Scriptures, I try my best NOT TO be friendly.

    As for Emergents, we all know that anyone under 25 cannot know the Lord - unless like our church where we make them memorize the Canons of Dort to show they are not post-modern.

    That’s how we stay true to the Faith.

    Neil

  59. merry Says:
    August 11th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    “A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
    but delights in airing his own opinions.”
    – Proverbs 18:2

    Just something to think about. Let’s all try to dig deeper and come to understanding before we give our well-meaning opinions. ;)

  60. iggy Says:
    August 12th, 2008 at 12:32 am

    the mega church,

    I guess that includes John MacArthur’s church…

    iggy

  61. iggy Says:
    August 12th, 2008 at 12:55 am

    Funny that so many will over look mistakes of ministries they love, but will not give grace to a young ministry on the cutting edge who made some mistakes on the way.

    My question is this… is there room for forgiveness and grace toward xxxchurch from any that disagree with them? If they compromised once and have not sent a double message out since can one now extend to them forgiveness and grace.

    again, part of the fruit of this ministry is people in a industry that are getting saved and getting out.

    iggy

  62. John Hughes Says:
    August 12th, 2008 at 8:36 am

    I agree with Amy.

  63. nc Says:
    August 12th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Neil,

    toooooo funny.

    If you had the heidelberg catechism in then you’re really cooking with gas.

  64. Sandman Says:
    August 12th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    My question is this… is there room for forgiveness and grace toward xxxchurch from any that disagree with them? If they compromised once and have not sent a double message out since can one now extend to them forgiveness and grace.

    Iggy, as long as they can recognize what they did was probably a bad move and resolve not to do it again, as shown by their campaigns going forward, I wouldn’t want to continue to hang that albatross around their neck. But, becuase of the way they’ve positioned themselved, there will always be scrutiny to see if the gloves have gotten muddy, or if the mud has gotten glovey.

    Even in the Christian world, we often only judge people by the last bad thing they’ve done, or we have to view everyone we hold as suspect through whatever biases we have.

  65. Rick Frueh Says:
    August 15th, 2008 at 3:27 am

    We know the solution, now we need to be the solution.

    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/08/manifestation-of-christianity-i-cor.html