Friends,

Good morning! It is a glorious Wednesday morning here in Northeast Ohio. My wife and I woke up early this morning–well, I did :) anyhow. I walked to the bathroom and washed my face and then down the stairs from my bedroom where I would meet with the Lord in prayer and Scripture. What I learned this morning is that the Lord was already speaking in His Word and that He was waiting on me to listen. Surprisingly, and much to my dismay, the the Lord got along quite well without me while I slept.

I want to begin this rather short post by first reminding everyone to continue praying for Jim Bublitz, Mrs Schleuter, and Pastor Silva among others. I did that very thing this morning and also remembered Pastorboy and Samuel Guzman (the nice young man from Reformata and Always Ready). I also prayed for CRN.info and asked the Lord to help me understand how the prophet Isaiah used the word ‘justice’ (KJV, ‘judgment’) in his preaching. Finally, while reading a small book Disciplined by Grace by J F Strombeck, I was reminded that

“Grace, then, is God’s provision to bring into being, sustain, and perfect His new creation in Christ Jesus. It is the operation of his infinite love on behalf of such as are worthy of everlasting punishment. This outpouring of God’s infinite love is possible only because Jesus Christ, by his death, fully satisfied the demands of God’s justice. As grace came by Jesus Christ, only those who receive Him are under grace.” (19)

Now, on to other issues, not nearly as important, but equally confounding.

I have been following rather closely the posts made by Mrs Schleuter at SOL concerning the so-called ‘Word of Faith’ at the inspiring excellence conference in Tinley Park, Illinois. I was actually rather surprised that Mrs Schleuter would attend such a conference after so roundly rejecting the invitation to attend a conference by Rick Warren. But I’ll leave that alone for now.

Actually, in my estimation, Mrs Schleuter has nailed it down with her latest post on John Avanzini. Those ‘preachers’ are hucksters and it is good that someone is pointing this out to people. Sadly, no one is taking steps to point it out to the people who are actually being taken in by these hucksters and I was a bit dismayed that at the end of her rather well written essay that she actually offered a link back to the Family Harvest Church so that her readers could implicitly support the Word of Faith movement by buying CD copies of the conference speakers. Hmmm. But I’ll leave that alone for now.

Here’s the point of my morning conversation with you. It seems there is a very low threshold of tolerance for orthodoxy when it comes to certain ODM’s. Do you know what I mean? I fully grant that Mrs Schleuter and others are dead on when it comes to ‘word of faith’ ‘preachers’ because it is so patently obvious that those preachers are not preachers of the Gospel at all. Frankly, my sons could make those sorts of discernments and judgments. What gets me is that, at Slice for example, everyone gets lumped into the same category. I wonder then if I can trust the discernment of Mrs Schleuter when, for example, the same criticisms that are leveled against Mike Murdoch and Robb Thompson are leveled against Rick Warren or Rob Bell or Ray Comfort or Doug Pagitt or (insert name of favorite Slice heretic).

Seriously. Is  it really so easy to lump together a World Harvest Church and a Granger Community Church? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Emergent with all things Word of Faith? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Name and Claim It with all things Purpose Driven? Is it really, gulp, so easy to lump together all things Health and Wealth with all things Roman Catholic? Do you see my point which is that if you are outside that small, narrow, myopic, Spurgeon, Edwards, Washer, MacArthur, Piper worldview then you are automatically outside of the possibility of God’s grace? Is it really so easy for people to dismiss the large majority of Christians on the planet just because they don’t see things exactly the way ‘you’ do? Is it really so easy to dismiss what the grace of God might be doing in the lives of others? Is it really so easy to sit back and make such judgments about people for whom Christ died?

I come from a church that has traditionally been a part of a movement called the “Restoration Movement” (even though for a good part of my life I was Methodist). You know what the hardest aspect of being in a Restoration Movement church has been? Allowing God to remove the mindset from my heart that believed I belonged to THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, that ‘our’ way was the only way, that ‘we’ had all the right doctrines and that if anyone didn’t belong to the Restoration Movement then they were simply lost. It was my job, so the mindset goes, to convert the heretic Baptist, the recalcitrant Lutheran, the wayward Methodist and to avoid the hypocritical Catholic and so on and so forth. What I learned a few years back was this: It is not my job to convert anyone (Thank God!). Rather it is the job of the Spirit to convert the heretic jerry, the recalcitrant jerry, the wayward jerry, the hypocritical jerry and so on and so forth. Ironically, one of the ways the Lord has done this is by putting me in communities where there are very few Restoration Movement preachers. My first preaching ministry in Brandywine, WV was in a town of 500 that had 6 or 7 churches: Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Brethren, etc. (There was even a female preacher in the next town over. That took a while too, but that’s another story.)  In my current location, there are other Restoration preachers, but my two best friends here are an Anglican priest and a retired Pentecostal Methodist. Both decidedly saved by the grace of God, and both ridiculously sold out for Jesus Christ. Isolation from same feathered birds has taught me about grace.

A lot of this is about maturity and growing up and taking Doctrine of Grace (TTH 560 at CCU). The thing is, God’s grace is evident and present in all sorts of places and ways. This is why, for example, there are 4 Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John) instead of one; we get the complete picture by seeing four views. This is why there were 12 apostles (or 13). You can’t tell me that Matthew the Tax Collector always got along well with Simon the Zealot! But, from 12 points of view, He gains a more complete mission. Matthew could minister to a group of people that the Simon could not and vice versa. Likewise with Paul, the Pharisee! It’s not that they shared everything in common, but that they held One Person in common: Jesus Christ. Ironically, in the Gospel, Paul wrote this: “There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.” What he didn’t say is this: There is one opinion; one point of view. Here I tread carefully because this can be taken too far to the extreme. Some things are purposely ambiguous; we have to learn to live there.

This is true also of the ongoing efforts between churches of Christ a Capella and not a Capella to forge some sort of unity. In reality, all that needs to happen is for Christians to acknowledge the unity that already exists by virtue of the grace of God. As it is, two different congregations can reach two different groups of people: One that prefers musical instruments and one that does not. That’s just one (post) modern example. Fact is, I would have a hard time worshiping in a place like Granger on a regular basis and I would probably be left unsatisfied listening to Rob Bell every week. To me it (Granger) would be like Church camp every Sunday. I am much more comfortable in my tradition. But that doesn’t mean Granger is wrong or outside of God’s grace any more than it means John MacArthur’s church is right or has an inside track on God’s grace. It means they are different while being the same. It means that God has created them with red and yellow feathers and he has created me with blue and white feathers and still others have been made with red and green feathers. It means that where Christ is King, we are all different and yet all the same.

In conclusion, I will say this: If Mrs Schleuter or Pastor  Silva are right about WOF, this does not necessarily guarantee they are right about everything. And the problem is that they hold to a monochromatic view of God’s grace: all they see is Crows and not Birds of Paradise, Goldfinches, Parrots, Peacocks, etc. The God of Creation, however, made flowers, and animals, and a thousand different kinds of birds and trees and fish. So creative is He, so fascinated with diversity, that no two of us have the same fingerprint profile. He didn’t make one, but many; and yet many are also one. A fascinating picture of this is in Revelation 7 where from God’s perspective there are 144,000 Jews and from John’s perspective there is a great multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language. One; yet many. The same; yet different. 

What I’m asking for is more discernment in the way we discern. It is not right to lump all people together the way certain ODM’s do. And the sooner clearer distinctions are made, the better. Does this mean every single Emergent church pastor is among the wheat or sheep? Nope. But neither does it mean that every single Spurgeon toting, Washer quoting Reformed church pastor is either. What it means is that every single one of us is dependent upon the grace of God. What I am asking, pleading for, is that grace find a way to insinuate itself into the online discernment ministries and conversations. As I said in a reply yesterday, God could have given us straight-forward Levitical law type instructions about the church. But he did not. Some things He left purposely ambiguous and sometimes I expect He did so precisely because He wants to see just how much we really love one another and how much we love Him. Or maybe He has a sense of humor and likes to see us trip all over ourselves in our efforts to ‘Lord it over’ one another while Jesus remains enthroned at His Right Hand.

Soli Deo Gloria!

jerry

PS–Poor Ray Comfort. The man cannot win for losing. Everyone is on his back now and all he really wants to do is love God and people and share the Kirk.

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 23rd, 2008 at 9:09 am and is filed under Christian Living, Ingrid, Ken Silva, Theology. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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43 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 am

I believe that the article on SoL was one of her best and posted about it on my blog. She did an excellent job of presenting what is happening in these religious “Gong Shows”.

2   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 am

Oh Rick… now you have gone and ruined your reputation with her… LOL! I mean after she said all those nice things about you. ; )

3   Joe C    
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 am

Fantastic Jerry, simply fantastic. Thanks.

LOL Share the Kirk…HAAAHA…

4   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 am

I got to thinking a little about what I wrote and came up with the following edit:

“Upon reflection, I thank God that RM churches are not the only Christians. To be sure, one of ‘our’ slogans has always been ‘we’re not the only Christians, but Christians only.’ In my estimation, this has not been practically applied, evenly taught, or theologically embraced. I think that is, and has been, gradually chaging as more RM folks start to see God’s grace at work in the church. Nevertheless, in some corners it is still thoroughly rejected which is why some Church of Christ folks are viewed more as a cult than a church. Sad.

A good place to see this ‘battle’ rage is: Answering the Church of Christ. There, the authors do battle with certain very closed minded ‘hyper’ COC folks pointing out, among other things, that God’s grace is bigger than any one of our little tribes.

Anyhow, just some further thoughts. Thanks for reading.

jerry

5   nc    
July 23rd, 2008 at 12:14 pm

Fascinating stuff about RM…

I’ve met some “Disciples of Christ” (Christian Church) types…

Unfortunately they’ve struck me as arrogant and highminded about their “purity” of identity and doctrine.

6   anonymousjane    http://anonymousjane.wordpress.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm

I haven’t been reading much at SOL or here this summer. Partly because I’ve had a busy summer, but also partly because as I learn more about God, the less I care about some of this stuff. At least that is where I am right now.

Then I come here and find this gem. What a great article, Jerry. I think you’re new, so please allow me to thank you for sharing such great thoughts. I look forward to reading your pieces in the future.

7   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 23rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm

aj,

we spent some time together when you first starting blogging. we talked about reading the Bible. I am glad you haven’t given up on CRN. There’s a lot more for us all to learn. good to hear from you.

jerry

8   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Friends,

Here’s a further update:

“Jesus Movement” by Audio Adrenaline

Have you ever been so inclined
Yeah, is it on your mind
The thought we’re the Lord’s lone protege
Well I thought we were the only hope
Yeah, the world’s safety rope
Americana has come, come to save the day
Imagine my surprise
To realize

[CHORUS]
Everywhere I go I can see
I’m not the only one
Moving moving to Jesus

I went down to Mexico
Mi amigo
And I found Jesus living outside the USA
Imagine my surprise To realize

I’d change “Americana” and “Mexico” and “USA” to something like “Restoration Movement” or “Reformed Movement” or “ODM Movement”. It’s all about Jesus, no?

jerry

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm

In the end it is about lifting Him up.

http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2006/12/exalted-christ-h-e-is-start-journey-and.html

10   Chris P.    
July 23rd, 2008 at 4:12 pm

“Seriously. Is it really so easy to lump together a World Harvest Church and a Granger Community Church? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Emergent with all things Word of Faith? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Name and Claim It with all things Purpose Driven? Is it really, gulp, so easy to lump together all things Health and Wealth with all things Roman Catholic?”

Answer: Yes. I lump any and all that proclaim unbiblical teachings.
C’mon, the roman catholic church? Audio Adrenaline?

“Do you see my point which is that if you are outside that small, narrow, myopic, Spurgeon, Edwards, Washer, MacArthur, Piper worldview then you are automatically outside of the possibility of God’s grace? Is it really so easy for people to dismiss the large majority of Christians on the planet just because they don’t see things exactly the way ‘you’ do? Is it really so easy to dismiss what the grace of God might be doing in the lives of others? Is it really so easy to sit back and make such judgments about people for whom Christ died?”

Answer: Yes I see your point
YOU critique the odms, a term in which YOU lump an entire group of people. Thus proving you are guilty of that which you accuse others, i.e. being small, narrow, and myopic. BTW you should throw in a few more adjectives there in order to really make your point.

Personally,I have read Spurgeon and Edwards, but not extensively. I have never read anything that Washer or MacArthur have written
I have heard only a handful of MacArthur’s sermons, and none by Washer.
I have read more of John Piper than any of the others.
So what?

Your take on Rev 7 is interesting. Where is it written that the 144,000 are God’s perspective and the great multitude is John’s?
Where does the word say that
God loves diversity so much…..?
In fact the story of Babel in Genesis 11 says that God created “diversity” in order to stop man’s efforts to become god.

“Some things He left purposely ambiguous and sometimes I expect He did so precisely because He wants to see just how much we really love one another and how much we love Him. Or maybe He has a sense of humor and likes to see us trip all over ourselves in our efforts to ‘Lord it over’ one another while Jesus remains enthroned at His Right Hand.”

Where does it say that God left some things purposely ambiguous (Deut 29:29), or that He wants to see us trip all over ourselves?
Eph 2 says that the saints are seated with Christ, right now, at the Father’s right hand.

You have just demonstrated my problems with all the aforementioned “movements” and this blog. Plenty of “fowl” language virtually no Word.

11   sandy    
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:26 pm

this is one of those times when the inability to comment on SOL is frustrating. It was a great, great, great article. This prosperity drivel affects more people than John MacArthur, Rob Bell, John Piper, and Rick Warren combined. There needs to be a more concerted effort to expose these people as the frauds they are. I know many of them are being investigated by the IRS and congress, but the body of Christ does not need the government, we need to address this heresy ourselves.

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:36 pm

Sandy – I could not agree more.

13   J    http://www.urgentprayers.com
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:41 pm

Rick Frueh for once you and I agree 100 percent

I BTW wish every pastor in america would speak out against the Prosperity Gospel like this guy has in the link below

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nIdTFSIj8AI

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:52 pm

He speaks against the prosperity gospel, but he and his father live like they believe it.

15   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm

BTW wish every pastor in america would speak out against the Prosperity Gospel like this guy has in the link below

Me thinketh thou doth protesteth to, uh, mucheth.

16   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 24th, 2008 at 8:46 am

Chris P,

I’m sorry I took so long to get your comments online. I do have to work every now and again–and I’m also half-way through a really cool video game–so, well, that’s my excuse.

I’d love to comment on everything you have written, but alas poor you, I will not. Your comments betray a profound lack of imagination and a sincere lack of insight. Nevertheless, I do wish to respond to at least two questions you asked.

First, with regard to Revelation 7. The answer is: It doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean that is not the point. God sees a perfect number of people 12*12,000=144,000. This is the number John ‘heard.’ Then in verse 9 it says John ’saw’. This is not my idea, but that of people who actually have books published and have studied the context intensively (like Eugene Peterson for example). Why else would there be two ways of describing such an event? This is where your imagination is lacking.

Second, concerning my use of the word ‘ambiguous’–this is where you lack insight–what does Ephesians 2 have to do with it? I’ll give you one example. Some churches (like mine) serve communion every week and use tiny plastic cups and broken up matza. We think communion is a meal, much like Passover, where we remember Jesus and ‘proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.’ Others think communion is a sacrament–a statement nowhere found at all in Scripture!–and thus celebrate it as such. Others serve communion maybe 4 times a year or 12 at most. That’s rather ambiguous to me. Maybe not to you, esteemed one, but to some of us it is. There is no real command concerning communion except that ‘as often as you [do it], remember [Him].’ Or take the example of deacons in Timothy. Was Paul talking about deacons and deaconesses? Or was he talking about deacons and their wives? Strange that you haven’t noticed this.

Chris, you sound like a man full of fire. And I’m glad you are! The Kingdom of God needs fiery people like yourself to get God’s word into the hands of the lost and unregenerate. And, you must preach every week to a very lovely congregation because anyone who would tolerate your sort of anger from a pulpit must be loving. But you are really off base here and you must not have read what I wrote, which agreed with Mrs Schleuter!, and taken it to heart. It was a call for unity in the Body of Christ.

What I would suggest is that you re-read my essay and think about it, and then come back an write some thoughts. Here’s a lesson that someone gave me one time, early in my ministry, that I still practice to this day. When you read something or have a thought about someone you are angry with, sit down and write out your thoughts. Then set it aside for a day or so. After a day or so, re-read it. If you still feel the same way after a day or so, re-write it, and then set it aside for a day or so. If on the third day you still feel the same, and you have prayed mightily about it, then go ahead and send it or post it.

It’s your tone, not your content that gets your comments moderated. Your anger does not bring about the righteous life that God requires.

Good day, sir.
jerry

17   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 24th, 2008 at 8:50 am

Chris P,

PS–I will not have you talking about Audio Adrenaline like that. One more crack about AA and I’ll recommend you for lifetime ban!

jerry

18   Chris P.    
July 24th, 2008 at 9:23 am

Wow !!
“It’s your tone, not your content that gets your comments moderated.”

So we can teach unbiblically as long as we are “nice” (a subjective term btw) about it?
God help you. Why don’t you re-read what you’ve written.
This is what presentation of the Word has sunk to, proper tone,i.e. being a weenie, and “imagination” i.e. eisegesis and extrapolation; iow deconstructing and reconstructing scripture.

I am no fan of 99% of ccm artists and the fluff they purvey.

Hope you beat the machine.

19   Chris P.    
July 24th, 2008 at 10:05 am

A couple of more thoughts.
The fire is needed not just for evangelism but for instruction, reproof, rebuke, correction, which is proper discipleship.
As for your crack about me and the people I serve….. You know nothing about it. I don’t preach every Sunday, although I do teach . I am the worship leader at a church on The Navajo Nation. Guess what? They love me and I love them. No one in my area has a problem with my passion or the fact that I am not a comprimiser.
I am asked to speak regularly at worship seminars and other churches, We are asked to bring our music all over the region. Our senior pastior, a Navajo is just as passionate if not moreso than I am. BTW we actually have a lot of fun together.
I am going to make an offer. I will send one of our new cds free of charge to anyone who is interested. We write virtually all of the music we sing in our church,all different styles. Then you can judge where I come from. We are not in it to make a buck or “get famous”
You can contact me at:
the4cornersworshipcenter@msn.com

20   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 24th, 2008 at 10:59 am

Chris P,

You are perceptive aren’t you?

jerry

21   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 24th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Chris P,

All of us, and I don’t think I am out of line in speaking for the writers here, give praise to God that you are doing the vital Gospel work of the kingdom at The Navajo Nation!

I thank God, through Jesus Christ, that you are producing vital music, fruit that will last, that you are no compromiser, and that you are loved by the Sr. Pastor. Praise God!

If only you didn’t feel the need to tell us all about it, life would be much better in the church. Passion is not your problem. Humility is.

with much love and affection,
jerry

22   Joe C    
July 24th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Chris P,
Your tone gets you moderated because you violate Jesus commands and examples with it [your tone and the way you condescend us]. You can speak the Truth all day, but if you’re a arrogant crusher of the bretheren about it, you’re sinning, and you should be moderated, because we don’t need to be assaulted by a brother in Christ. I hope you understand.

Joe

23   John Hughes    
July 24th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Jerry: If only you didn’t feel the need to tell us all about it, life would be much better in the church. Passion is not your problem. Humility is.

Jerry,

In all fairness to Chris P, many, many of the writers and commentators here have provided background on their ministries in defense of their positions. Your comment was a little odd. I did not find Chris P’s statements particularly arragant.

24   John Hughes    
July 24th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

To clarify: statements regarding his ministry.

25   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 24th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

John,

I did the same thing in a reply to Pastor Silva the other day. I think I was commenting on the sum total of his comments that’s all. Chris P’s response was a little odd with respect to the point of this post. That’s all I was saying. More like an ‘are you finished yet so we can get on to the subject matter of this post’ sort of thing. Thanks for point out that I should be kinder and gentler with those who need to boast in something other than the cross and weakness. I’m guilty too.

jerry

26   Chris P.    
July 24th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

I love it!!
You brought the whole thing up by making a remark about me and the church I serve at without knowing anything about either.
Then you accuse me of arrogance when I enlighten you on the subject.
This is rich.
If I “boasted” in this all the time, you would have a case.
On the other hand all of you fall over yourselves showing us how christlike you are.
BTW, I was responding to this in your comment:
“And, you must preach every week to a very lovely congregation because anyone who would tolerate your sort of anger from a pulpit must be loving”

Joe c
Frst of all take a grammar class.
Second you don’t know what you are talking about either.

Well… I have more to rant about but, I must be off to my anger management class

27   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 25th, 2008 at 8:09 am

Chris P,

Just so you know, I love you. And I will continue to do so even if you tell me to stop. You have seriously misjudged me, but that’s OK. I love you.

jerry

28   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 8:50 am

Jerry,
Just my observation, but your tone does come across slightly biting and scathing (more than just tongue-in-cheek) even though you say you love those you are writing about.

We’ve all said, more times than can be counted, that the tone of our remarks is directly linked to our remarks.

And I feel your tone comes across as contemptuous at times.
Just a few thoughts.

Shalom

PS Even if I’m right, if I act like an ass, I am wrong.

29   Sandman    
July 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am

Chris P, Jerry, and anybody else to whom this could apply:

Take a step back and look at what you’ve written. The things we do leave a reflection of who we are, including our writings. And some reflections aren’t looking too good right now.
Tone down the rhetoric and reinforce your arguments.
Seek to be understood.
Read for understanding, not just to respond.
Remember, more is caught than taught and kind words turn away wrath.

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 9:59 am

“Even if I’m right, if I act like an ass, I am wrong.”

Good one, Nate.

The end doesn’t justify the means!

31   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 25th, 2008 at 10:15 am

Friends,

With all due respect, I’m really having a hard time understanding in what way I have upped the rhetoric in this conversation. Chris P started in on me in reply #11–ironically dealing with the contents of the post. I responded to a couple of his points in reply #17. I’m certainly not going to defend myself here, but it does seem to me that you haven’t read too carefully my original post–which Chris P thoroughly misunderstood–and my subsequent updates in replies #5 & #9 and the thoroughly angry replies that Chris P has made throughout this thread.

Furthermore, I praised Chris P in reply #22 and repented when rebuked in replies #24 & #26. Finally in reply #28 I expressed my sincere love for Chris P. And now #29, #30, & #31 are all calling for a tone down? Seriously? Did you read what Chris P has been saying? Somehow none of this seems to be taken into account?!?

Here’s what I said in my original post:

It was my job, so the mindset goes, to convert the heretic Baptist, the recalcitrant Lutheran, the wayward Methodist and to avoid the hypocritical Catholic and so on and so forth. What I learned a few years back was this: It is not my job to convert anyone (Thank God!). Rather it is the job of the Spirit to convert the heretic jerry, the recalcitrant jerry, the wayward jerry, the hypocritical jerry and so on and so forth.

Yet somehow this has been missed by most. And it also seemed to be missed that for the most part I agreed with Mrs Schlueter’s point. The post wasn’t even about her per se. Anyhow, I guess perhaps I didn’t clear enough make my point in the original post which was something like: Isn’t there room in the church for variety and diversity.

I really wish someone would take up that challenge and comment on this point.

jerry

32   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 10:25 am

Jerry – three things:

* Your post made a very valid point.

* The only place I saw personal sarcasm was “the affable one”.

* You must become more discerning about engaging certain commenters who sometimes specialize in entrapment.

Over and out! :)

33   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 10:42 am

A few thoughts from the blackberry-

1) I’m not tracking with the thought that Jerry’s “upping the rhetoric”, though so much perception is fueled by tone we read into other’s writing

2) Chris P – the moderation was added after several months’ of your penchant to pop in just to tell folks to “shove it” and to level broadsides which (more often than not) had little or nothing to do with the OP. This thread is the first one I’ve seen in awhile where you’ve generally “stayed on point”, though no matter how I try to read it I can’t seem to find a charitable tone, which is sad.

3) HAving grown up in the RM church, I totally relate t the OP, and I have greatly appreciated the direction of a number of RM churches which have recently sought reconciliation within (the instrumental/a Capella split of the 1870’s) and without (allowing for unity in essentials and diversity in non-essentials – with a less dogmatic approach than making every doctrinal point “essential”)

Blessings,

Chris L

34   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 25th, 2008 at 10:58 am

Chris P,

SO…you criticize my grammar, or lackthereof (ignoring the fact that I might have been typing quickly with little time). Then, you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. What you don’t realize is I was speaking from experiences with you over many months of your unChristlike comments, and letting you know (as Chris has stated above) that this was why you’re moderated.

So let’s see…bad grammar = I don’t know what I’m talking about. Good non-response non-sequitor!

Have a good day brother…peace,

Joe

35   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 25th, 2008 at 11:02 am

Chris L.,

Sorry you had to break from your vacation twice! :) I’m still learning, as Rick said, ‘to be more discerning concerning some commenters.’ I’ll do better.

You and I share the heritage of the RM. The one and only NACC I went to was in Louisville a couple of years ago and it was very stirring and moving to see Dave Stone and Jeff Walling share the stage for a few moments to exchange Bibles. The original ‘Plea’ of the RM is still valid, but what needs to happen, in my estimation, is that it needs to transcend denominational lines and–the point of the post–stylistic (or methodological) lines as well.

jerry

36   Chris P.    
July 25th, 2008 at 11:10 am

Tone triumphs over truth. Hmmmm…..
The tone of this blog is juvenile, sacrcastic, sophomoric, … need I go on?

C’mon Rick.
““Even if I’m right, if I act like an ass, I am wrong.”
Good one, Nate.
The end doesn’t justify the means!”

Well let’s proclaim error as long as we are “nice” (more subjectivity) about it.
You should write speeches for Obama.

When did I ever tell anyone to “shove it”?

I always stay on point. I am simply able to read between the rhetorical lines.

BTW, no one here has addressed my points and I am not angry. Such rhetoric is simply the way you try to win an argument.
You play fast and loose with scriptural truth and then distract from that fact by raning about “tone”

Finally an FYI, to those on this blog, and the theological fascists at my favorite sedevacantist blog at the only places where I ever speak this way. Think about it.

37   Chris P.    
July 25th, 2008 at 11:19 am

One last thing.
I never edit or moderate any comments at my blog. In fact only extremely profane language will get you censored.
You can call me names or whatever. I don’t care. Whether you love or hate me, opinions of men don’t make me who I am.

The use of moderation creates strawmen, i.e. you are so mich better than those whom you must moderate, the PC police. It also allows you to steer the comments away from or towards any direction you wish. IOW, eisegesis.

They also use moderation here also: http://forchrist-contramundum.blogspot.com/

38   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 25th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Chris P.,
One only need look at one of the posts with 300+ comments to see we do very little steering of comments here. We hardly ever use moderation here at all. The only time I’ve ever moderated comments personally was when a commenter was drunk and spewing nonsense. Chris L. has explained the decision to put you and Ken on moderation a lot of times.

As as far as your tone goes, you may think you are exhibiting something along the lines of “tough love”, but it mostly comes across as obnoxiousness. The fact is that the vast majority have never met you personally, and what you post here is all we see. You may be a great guy in person, but it doesn’t come across here.

39   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

I can back up the statement by Phil. The only comments I’ve made that were moderated were when I used some profanity laced tirade against someone. :)

Even my comments where I suggested an obvious intellectual impairment by Tim Reed were allowed to post because of the factual content. :cool:

40   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Chris P,

Galatians 6

1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
2. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
3. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,
5. for each one should carry his own load.

Never have seen you follow the Bible’s instructions… I have only seen you use Jesus to abuse, judge and condemn others…

John 3: 17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Jesus did not even condemn us… we were already condemned… yet you see fit to usurp Jesus Himself and judge and condemn others… and that is what seems to only come across here.

I tell you this in love and knowing full well of the temptation to do this.

peace,
iggy

41   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 25th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Chris P-

Since you did ask, I believe a completely off-topic rant accompanied by telling the author (unprovoked) to “stick it where the sun don’t shine” was the final straw in a series of drive-by’s that led to your moderation.

Your inability to accurately “read between the lines” (since I can attest from drive-bys on my own posts that your between-the-line reading was about as trustworthy as Obama’s foreign policy judgment – which is to say ‘nonexistent’) is a pretty good barometer on why discernment may not really be your calling. You may be a great musician and a calling to work on the res, but discernment ‘ministry’ just ain’t your bag…

42   Linda Thacker    
July 26th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Just something to think about…

Have you ever noticed in the Bible that being in the “majority” was not really a good place to be?

43   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 26th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Have you ever noticed in the Bible that being in the “majority” was not really a good place to be?

Linda – it just depends on how big/small you define a group to be and what the “majority” is.

For instance, if you were in the “majority” of the 144,000 seen by John in Revelation, would that not be a “good place to be”?

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