This Is How It Is *Updated
I attended a city council meeting this evening where one of the council men made a motion on hiring city employees and said, “This is the way it should be and if the council decides to do it differently then I am going to vote no on new hires every time from now on no matter what.” This came from a guy who is a Christian. Ignoring for a moment how immature this attitude is, it is sometimes the stance we try to take on certain issues (usually issues we feel strongly about). Those issues vary depending on the person, what kind of church or background they come from, problems they are dealing with currently, etc.
I don’t care what kind of worldview you have (or what kind you think you have), as a church culture in the U.S. we have moved past “This is how it is, I’m right, you’re wrong, deal with it.” You may not realize it yet, but the moment you take that attitude on any issue, you immediately become irrelevant, regardless of whether you are right nor not.
The reason for your immediate irrelevancy is that you have closed your ears ensuring that you will not listen to the other person, and you have shut down dialogue, ensuring no chance of either of you growing in your understanding of truth.
We’ve all done this. We all do it. But as a culture we have moved past this into one of communication towards growth. This is important for ministers and teachers who can no longer say “Thus saith the Lord” and expect everybody to agree. The ironic thing about this is that it never worked that way anyway. Sure, people would nod their heads and accept the voice of the church as authoritative, but the people did not grow, they did not live the authority of Christ in their lives.
This is just the way it is…
*Update - I’ve included some additional information upon request.
It’s an attitude, so it can come out with any issue. Like I said, I’ve done it. For the councilman, it was the issue of new hires. For some of my family, the issue is alcohol consumption, or the observance of communion on Sunday mornings. For me right now? Not sure, that’s part of why I wrote the article to reflect on how effectively I’m helping the people I serve transform. Am I understanding what is right and wrong and then just telling people that’s the way it is and getting mad when they don’t see it? Or am I working with the Spirit of God in bringing that person into the light of Truth so that they understand and want to live it too?
Also, here is a link to a great new article by David Crowder that I think speaks to this issue. Go check it out.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:55 am
But at the end of time, that very attitude will be the ultimate value of the universe…When God says: That’s it. This is the way it is. Screw you if you don’t like it.
You just need to get with the deeper message of the eschatological program and stop kicking against the pricks of Absolute True Truth Truthiness.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:16 am
NC
I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but, if not, Amen.
Where I agree dialogue is very important, there is an ultimate truth, and it is found in the inspired Word of God. Those of us who read and study it for a living, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can understand what it says regarding certain subjects, on which we can speak with certainty.
Unlike what Rob Bell says, Jesus was the only begotten son of God, not the son of Larry.
Unlike what Doug Pagitt says, everyone is not going to be reconciled and restored on the day of judgement.
If we do not study the Word of God regularly, we can be assured that we will be deceived. If we do not agree that it is God’s Word, then we will question it continually. The issue is not dialogue, it is an issue of trust, of faith, and of believing God and taking Him at his Word. Everything else is irrelevant.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:19 am
You are right, it should be God is right, and everyone is wrong. Thats why we must repent and trust in Him alone for salvation!!
July 15th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Seriously, John?
July 15th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Yes, I know that it was an illustration of springs and bricks. But if you do not study the Word of God, and trust in what God says, you can be deceived by that!
July 15th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Politics - I love this type of stuff. It provides such amusement and showcases man’s fallen nature.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Wow, PB, you may have set some record for the number of strawmen constructed in one post…
It’s one thing for God to say “that’s the way it is”, but quite another for us to say it. There are certainly a core of things which I can say with a lot of certainty, “that’s the way it is”, but that doesn’t mean everything is a line in the sand.
And, no, quoting Scripture out of context and saying it’s God’s word doesn’t make it some sort of universal fiat. That’s what I call the “nugget hermeneutic” - approaching the Bible as if we were panning for gold. We take our little nuggets and line them up to build one great and glorious wall of our own design.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Connecting any part of Christianity with the government is a felony in some states! And that’s the way it is…
BTW - I am in favor of drilling every drop of oil everywhere on the planet. We need to drill immediately in Indian burial grounds, cemetaries, parks, lakes, your back yard, and all other areas that happen to lie above any oil. Our thirst for energy dictates we rape the earth starting now!
Question: How many people who are against drilling in Anwar would turn down 10 million dollars to allow drilling in their own back yard? I am currently digging with a Craftsmen drill in my own backyard looking for oil. No bubblin’ crude yet!
July 15th, 2008 at 10:38 am
I suspect that if your heart thrills to the “rightness” of your God more than the redemption and renewal that that “rightness” is merely a means to than you don’t understand that the point is not the domination and power and “rightness”.
It only demonstrates that your point is domination, power and “rightness”.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:39 am
And that further demonstrates how broken and sinful you really are.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:09 am
So is the “nugget” hermeneutic worse than the “science/culture/talmud/my own warm fuzzy thoughts as hermeneutic” approach?
http://solascripturapprovedworkman.blogspot.com/2008/07/july-15the-feast-of-deconstruction.html
July 15th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Well you either have “thus says the Lord” or you have the Hegelian Dialectic. I choose to work with the former, flawed delivery and all, instead of the alternative which is why we are where we are today.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:16 am
“Our thirst for energy dictates we rape the earth starting now!” Said while typing on a keyboard made of oil products.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:18 am
My favorite is the environmentalists that object to wind power because it is noisy or detracts from the view. Here is Texas we stick ‘em out on the range. (You know where the deer and the antelope play). They only annoy the cyotes.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Have we hijacked this thread?
July 15th, 2008 at 11:37 am
My keyboard is made of soy beans!
July 15th, 2008 at 11:42 am
John, I have no problem with what God says. In fact, I live my life based on what He has said. In no way to I suggest that we denounce truth or the authority of the word of God.
Also, you present a false dichotomy. The two are not only not by nature in opposition to eachother, they are also not the only options. Is there such a thing as a double false dichotomy? If so, you’ve presented it.
We are where we are today because the church has been to busy saying “thus saith the Lord” and not busy enough working with God in the transformation of lives. That is why we are in the position we are in. That and sin. But I can’t control somebody else’s sin. Which is ironically what we as a church so often try to do when we pull out the “this is how it is.”
July 15th, 2008 at 11:43 am
And stop trying to hijack my threads. Don’t make me come over there.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:52 am
–You may not realize it yet, but the moment you take that attitude on any issue, you immediately become irrelevant, regardless of whether you are right nor not.–
Thank you for so succintly stating the (post)modern problem. Right and wrong do not matter among such as those, only how nice and compromising one seems.
“But what we suffer from to-day is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself.
Chesterton, Orthodoxy, ch. III
July 15th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Although Chris P does an excellent job trying to out-do John’s false dichotomies here and in his linked article…
I guess the logic goes, “If you can’t refute their argument, rather than agree or just leave it lie, make up a different argument and refute it, instead…”
July 15th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Jazz/Pillage - please stop using multiple personas or you will be put on moderation. We’ve asked everyone else to do the same…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
–This is important for ministers and teachers who can no longer say “Thus saith the Lord” and expect everybody to agree. –
More to be pitied, then, are the ‘everybody’, not the ministers and teachers who really do teach what the Lord has really said.
If end result is suppose to be some kind of measure of the truth, then it may be fairly asked, why were the words that God gave through the prophets and the apostles so often not heeded? And worse yet, the messenger often suffered or was killed?
Should Jeremiah have not delivered the messages God gave to Him, because the people didn’t listen? Was it Jeremiah’s fault that the people didn’t accept his message?
The hidden message seems to here be that if the church lived godly, the world will listen. But by the Bible, that is not so. “If they hated me (Jesus), they will hate you because you love me” and “all those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution”.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Thank you for succinctly stating the modernist problem - it doesn’t matter if you’re an utter tactless fool as long as you speak “truth”* - speaking truth in love is overrated, only “truth”* is important…
*-please ignore that “truth” is often mistaken for actual truth, and is more likely to be an interpretation with a (small or wide) degree of variance from God’s truth…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I guess we’re just going to keep ignoring what Christian P actually wrote and continue down the straw-man path of “oh no, he’s denying truth!” instead of recognizing that so many ministers and teachers may SAY “The Lord has said…”, but get the interpretation totally botched, based on their own systematic lenses rather than the original meaning of Scripture, and that it is THIS which Christian is addressing…
Oh well, keep beating the strawmen, Chris P & Jazz/EP, that’s about all you seem capable of doing…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
ep,
i don’t deny the truth of Jesus’ words.
The point is that the reality of people’s “hatred” and “persecution” still doesn’t give us a license to be jerks about the Gospel, etc.
That’s the point.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
“This is important for ministers and teachers who can no longer say “Thus saith the Lord” and expect everybody to agree.”
We should not be looking for people to agree. Our spirits should be loving and redemption, but the Lord has spoken and we cannot but speak the things that we have both seen and heard. Many times a dialgoue is philosophy in disguise.
If we do not have the Words of God we have nothing but hot air. I do not care what men say regardless of their oratorical prowess or their ecclesiastical stature or even their proficiency in Greek or Hebrew, what does God say? And all of us must subjectively seek the objective Word of God for ourselves.
If people “accept the voice of the church as authoritative” or any man for that matter, then they are spiritually lazy and deceived and will not grow past infancy. And that is what passes today as discipleship. Some follow MacArthur, some follow Bell, some follow Warren, and some follow Calvin, and some follow their local pastor.
Only God knows how much time and labor they expend pursuing the Risen Christ personally.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Just wondering - which is better - speaking the truth regardless of whether anyone listens (the easy way) or speaking the truth in a way that people are more apt to listen (the hard way)?
The more I read the howls of protest, the more I see folks pining for the easy way out…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
pillage,
does the tone of my answer matter?
or is only the answer important?
July 15th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
The tone is part of the answer itself.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Sometimes I imagine that if Christian P posted a recipe for Chocolate Chip Cookies, he would still get railed on for things he didn’t say in his article…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Words of wisdom from the wise (yet remarkably humble) Rick Frueh.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
OK - If Christian is saying that we do not have to self righteously couch everything we say in “Thus sayth the Lord” verbiage, but we can say and believe the same truth, then I agree.
A. “All have sinned - and that means YOU!!
B. All of us have sinned, including me.
Yes, a difference in tone and maybe effectiveness.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Can you elaborate a little: on what issues in particular do you see people taking this stance?
July 15th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Rick, you are almost there. I’m getting at the attitude behind it as well, because sometimes it isn’t just the verbiage. But what you just said is a big part of it.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
It’s an attitude, so it can come out with any issue. Like I said, I’ve done it. For the councilman, it was the issue of new hires. For some of my family, the issue is alcohol consumption, or the observance of communion on Sunday mornings. For me right now? Not sure, that’s part of why I wrote the article to reflect on how effectively I’m helping the people I serve transform. Am I understanding what is right and wrong and then just telling people that’s the way it is and getting mad when they don’t see it? Or am I working with the Spirit of God in bringing that person into the light of Truth so that they understand and want to live it too?
July 15th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Christian - you should include your last comment in your post, it was completly illuminating.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
I would agree that in any form of leadership, even parenting, the goal is to transfer understanding, rather than do’s and don’ts.
Jesus said, “Except your righteousness exceeds (gets deeper) that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of God.” It appears He was most interested with the inner man, which, by nature, should also change the outer man (rather than strictly focusing on the outer man and never develop God inwardly).
That is not true in my view. We are where we are today because the church has become more worldly and less desirous of discipleship than ever before. Churches are filled with people who still have not received Jesus Christ as their Lord. We are where we are today because of a desire for entertainment and a light form of the gospel.
As in the days of Isaiah:
or as Paul wrote to Timothy, exhorting to preach the WORD:
July 15th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
“John, I have no problem with what God says. In fact, I live my life based on what He has said.”
Ok, me too. And that’s how I know Rob Bell is a false prophet and you guys who write at this site are wrong in your view of Christianity.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Paul C, please excuse me. I should have said “one of the reasons we are where we are…”
Sure, desire for entertainment is part of where we are. But I would include that under selfishness or self-centeredness. None of our posts, comments or even these discussions are exhaustive. I think that that helps illustrate my point in this post.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
emergent pillage.
You are all over the board… you seem to be against the emerging church then seem to talk just like it at times… By being all over the board you seem very post modern which is what I deal with daily. You seem to miss that you are also living in the postmodern age and must find a way to live out your faith in it. That is what the Conversation is about… it is not about embracing PM rather it is about teaching the lost who have.
You seem to agree greatly with Brian McLaren… who also quotes Chesterton a lot.
iggy
an emergent pillager for Jesus
July 15th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Unfortunately, though, Ken, your writing and “discernment” make it appear that the God you are listening to isn’t the one that wrote the Bible…
July 15th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Ken - your comments have become less and less poignant and many times just a one sentence commentary without any productivity to any issue. The last one is a perfect specimen.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Chesterton must have been one of the “good” Catholics…
Seriously, Chesterton was very staunch Catholic. It doesn’t come across so much in Orthodoxy, but if you read The Everlasting Man, he is very much against Sola Scriptura. He was also no fan of Calvinists in general.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Rick,
O, excuse me. I’m so very sorry that if in your great humility your intellect has suffered. My point is really pretty simple though, so you just try and follow along, k.
Christian P. pontificates: “I have no problem with what God says. In fact, I live my life based on what He has said.”
But if one of us so-called ODMs says this, then by default we immediately have this from Chris L. right on cue: “your writing and “discernment” make it appear that the God you are listening to isn’t the one that wrote the Bible…”
The truth is: “ODMs” think we have a proper hermeneutic concerning what God has said. However, the postevangelcials and postliberals here at this site think that they are the ones who do.
So my point is: Since we are essentially diametrically opposed it’s becoming increasingly difficult to think we are both speaking from the same Spirit.
There that wasn’t so hard, was it Rick.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Expounding is better. I believe I have followed your thought train.
Humbly, of course.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Ken,
This is a serious question. What does the prefix “post-” mean to you? “Post-evangelical” - I can understand to some extent. I probably wouldn’t mind that label so much. I have no idea what “post-liberal” means, though. Does that mean you think we used to be liberals, but now we’re past it? Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
July 15th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
What that means, Phil, is that everything you post is liberal.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
The very problem with the modern American Church is what you state here as a problem with Christians, only it is the opposite. I agree with Emergent Pillage (whoever that is) when he says that the problem is not allowing the Bible to speak to us, instead we reconstruct everything to our own liking, thus creating a god and a theology that we are quite comfortable with. Recent examples on this site:
Discussion of Imago Dei
Justification of crude talk
Non-biblical view of Homosexual behavior
Non-biblical view of women in church
Anti-biblical theories of atonement
The last example is the support of people on this site of Brian McLaren’s view that PSA is ‘cosmic child abuse’ and the death of Christ as punishment of sins gives a false view of God and is like kicking a dog for a child’s wrongdoing.
We need to get back to ‘God says it, I’ll follow it, that settles it.” It is not up to deconstruction. Follow the clear instructions by the power of the Holy Spirit, seek God’s face in the unclear.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
From Apprising.org quoting Doug Pagitt’s new book:
We need to say ‘thus saith the Lord’ in this culture, opening up the bible and expositing its truth- So we can expose lies like this. This quote from Pagitt is nothing but pure, unadulterated HERESY anybody that can read the Bible can see this.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
“Please pull over sir. You’ve just committed serious act of unintended irony. I’m gonna have to see your license and registration…”
July 15th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
That is what emergents do Phil…
They create their own god, with an exciting mix of hinduism, Roman Catholic mysticism, islam, judaism, and a teensy bit of liberal Christianity to make it all palatable.
And since we do not say ‘thus saith the Lord’ these wolves have crept in via our church youth groups and worship teams and are now in the forefront. Thats why we cannot say thus saith the Lord and have it hold any water- because the neo liberals have called God’s very word into question, like the serpent in the garden.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Oooh…
Just like John Calvin took a nice heaping tablespoon of Platonic philosophy, a half-cup of Augustinian theology, a teaspoon of anti-Semitism, and a healthy pinch of Roman Catholic sacramentalism to come up with Reformed theology.
When Reformed guys start acting like their system is the system, it cracks me up…
July 15th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I reject both.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
John,
This is slander against people like me… and you just keep doing it. It also shows the magnitude of your ignorance on the topic… you only sound foolish in your continual false accusations against this “imaginary” emergents you have created. I am glad I actually know some of the people you slander so I know the truth about them.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Ken, part of hermaneutics is understanding the culture you live in so that you can communicate in that culture. By ignoring the fact that many people in our culture write off angry people who just shout the rightness of their position, you end up being the one who is ignored.
It would be nice to be able to read a passage of Scripture and say “thus saith the Lord” and tell people to obey and everybody obeys. But that isn’t the way it works, no matter how much we want it to work that way. That doesn’t mean we don’t teach truth, it means that we need to understand our attitudes and our approach. I want others to internalize/grasp/have an aha moment (whatever you want to call it) about God’s word in their lives.
There’s a story about a preacher in a small congregation who would preach against sin every Sunday, and every Sunday a certain man who lived in all these sins would come up to the preacher and say “You tell ‘em preacher.”
Well one Sunday, everybody in the congregation was out due to illness except for this one gentleman so the preacher thought, alright now he has to know I’m speaking to him. So the preacher let him have it. He preached against every sin that he knew of in this man’s life staring at him the entire time. After the sermon the man came up to the preacher and said, “You tell ‘em preacher.”
July 15th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I never thought I’d live long enough to see a lesson in hermaneutics to Ken Silva on this blog.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
It truly is the end times….
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
“I’m picking up on your sarcasm.”
July 15th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Can you back these with the citation… I mean I point out that Doug is Arminian and believes one can lose salvation and you say this… You miss the nuance of what many say… then twist it all into a hateful false accusation against your brothers in Christ….
This is so sad… I wish you would find the truth in Christ and not lean on your own misunderstanding.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
John,
THAT’S NOT WHAT BRIAN MCLAREN SAYS, WRITES, TEACHES, OR BELIEVES!! I’m beginning to think that you really might have problems. This has been explained to you repeatedly and you consistently ignore quoted direct evidence. This makes you a liar and a slanderer. Repeatedly. Over and over. And over.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
“part of hermaneutics is understanding the culture you live in”
The culture someone lives in has zero to do with proper Biblical hermeneutics.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I find it difficult to ascertain exactly what Brian MacLaren believes on many issues. Just when it seems clear he stated a position, I’m told he did not mean what it seems he said.
And he seems to enjoy being doctrinally enigmatic on some things that should not be very controversial.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
On a side note, and to my good friend Joe Martino, tonight is the last All Star game at Yankee Stadium! I was at the game in 1977. May the house that Ruth built rest in peace.
We kicked many Red Sox butts in that stadium!!
July 15th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Too bad you lost to us in 2004. And didn’t even get to us in 2007….
It’s funny to watch the Sox be boo’ed at the allstar game in the yanks stadium. Sounds like the boo of JEALOUSY.
PS go Sox
July 15th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
PPS …the Yanks loose when it actually matters/counts…!
July 15th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
26 - 2
DO THE MATH!!
July 15th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
John Chisam,
You are a liar. Rob Bell does not say that Jesus’s Dad is a guy named Larry and you know it. You are a liar.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Yeah…that ain’t nothing Rick….WHUTEVA!
Like I said, Yanks lose when it counts.
And the Sox have more than 2 Championships, just…they’re 86 years apart!
You sir, are 6 games behind. WHAT!?
July 15th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Oh Joe. Poor, poor, poor Joe. Don’t you have some Air Force video game to be playing? Too bad you lost to us in 2003, didn’t get to us 1996,1998,1999 and 2000 or 22 other times.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Ford, Berra, Mantle, Munson, Scooter, Jackson, Jeter.
The Magisterium.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
John,
I wonder if I were to post the audio of Rob using the ABC illustration of the gospel (Admit that you are a sinner, Believe that Jesus died for your sins, Confess that Jesus is Lord) would you let this Godly man alone? Or will you continue to create truth that fits your itching ears and do what is right in your own eyes for your own enjoyment?
July 15th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
AF Video Game?
I’ve never heard that before. Really. What makes you think we play video games for duty?
Alls I’m saying is…2 words.
World Champs = Sox. Where are the Yanks now?
July 15th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Oh you mean World of Warcraft. Plenty of those goonies in the AF. Lame.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Ha, I have at least two friends who are in right now, and my tax dollars are paying for them to play NCAA 2009. If you really wanted to be a soldier you should have joined the Army. Then your chevrons wouldn’t hang limp.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Ken,
THis is the thing you are making it backwards. We are not saying the culture is good of godly… never have never will…but we should know something about it to better present the Truth Who is Jesus to the people caught in the lies of the culture. You even do this… and that is what the emerging conversazione is all about.
So, for you to twist this around shows the deep misunderstanding of what you attack on so many levels it would take an act of God to unravel your false created delusion you attack other with.
You need to stick with the Gospel and preach it… stop the hate attack on others and get a life…. His Life that is.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Ken,
THis is the thing you are making it backwards. We are not saying the culture is good of godly… never have never will…but we should know something about it to better present the Truth Who is Jesus to the people caught in the lies of the culture. You even do this… and that is what the emerging conversazione is all about.
So, for you to twist this around shows the deep misunderstanding of what you attack on so many levels it would take an act of God to unravel your false created delusion you attack other with.
You need to stick with the Gospel and preach it… stop the hate attack on others and get a life…. His Life that is.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Don’t know why that posted twice… maybe Ken needs to get the message.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I joined the Air Force to fly. In addition to flight school, combat survival, etc etc, I was trained just as well as a soldier is for combat. Except, I’m not a ground pounding grunt, nor am I a soldier, and I’m fine with that :). I didn’t join to be a soldier.
I love my sister services though.
The Army has no room to talk however. They get to use their cellphones in basic on the weekends, get to watch tv, and get a ’stress card’ which they can use to take a ‘time out’ when the Drill Sergeant is yelling at them too much and making them ‘feel bad’. AF don’t got that. That’s why the Marines hate the Army more than us! WHOOOO! We’re hated less!
Yanks stink
July 15th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
We’re thread jackers tonight. Lame.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
joe,
There is no reconciliation with these guys, when they say that they lie. In fact their lies are more blatant and more outrageous. The more we point out their error, the more aggressive and hateful they get. John seems to be one of the worse as I have caught him in plagiarism against me as he did not site his sources when he quoted me. He seems to not care if he tells the truth nor if he sins against anyone, as he must justifies his sin right and left and not one of his “friends” demand he repents.
I see such egregious sin from that camp of people… it is as if they look in the mirror and see their own sin and cannot deal with it so go out and point out others to make themselves feel better.
iggy
July 15th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Haha I’m in the army and I can tell you that isn’t true. In fact we tell our recruits that about you silly flyboys
July 15th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
After 8 years as a corpsman in the Navy I can say you are all wrong…thus saith the Lord.
Iggy- I believe this has become known as the Ted Haggard syndrome. But in keeping with our military theme this evening, “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
July 15th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Chad,
Be careful… Ingrid might write a nasty post on you about how you are hitting below the belt.
igs
July 15th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
We wouldn’t want that now, would we? My excuse is that I am on vacation
July 15th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Ken,
You write that a person’s culture has zero to do with proper Biblical hermeneutics.
I thought I might direct your attention to D.A. Carson article I’m fond of, “Must I learn how to interpret the Bible?” It’s a good read from a serious student of the Word.
Anyway, number 11 on his list of principles for a biblical hermeneutic
is “Remember that you, too, are culturally and theologically located.”
Thought you might find that interesting.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
M.G.
I find that very interesting. Let us hope that Ken’s guiding hermeneutic principle is not numerology else he might say that since 11 is not 7 nor 3 or a combination thereof it is irrelevant.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Yeah, a likely excuse Brian. It’s a new thing, when’s the last time you were at Basic?
Regardless, I am here to say that no one plays video games at work in the AF, unless you’re a flyboy and aren’t flying, but that doesn’t count.
I’m going to leave this Christmas for a deployment to Iraq, I won’t get to see my son start talking. All the services get my respect, because we all go to the same place. So there.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Well, this is somewhat true. The culture the text was written in, however, has everything to do with proper hermeneutics. If you ignore the context, you’ll end up in left field, and totally miss a lot of stuff.
But even to say that the culture we’re living in has nothing to do with hermeneutics isn’t true. Unless you’re reading the texts in their original language, you’re applying a culturally-adjusted hermeneutic.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Phil,
“Unless you’re reading the texts in their original language, you’re applying a culturally-adjusted hermeneutic.”
Culture transcends language, obviously. And you have to be aware, as much as is possible, of your own culture whenever you engage a text, recognizing that your cultural vantage point will have an effect on your interpretive decisions.
The problem is that a lot of believers think there’s something akin to a “view from nowhere,” which enables someone to approach a text from a God-like angle.
In my mind, though, that’s blasphemy.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Certainly the culture the text was written within is vitally important to understanding its meaning. But the culture in which it is read plays a major role in how that meaning is appropriated. Give a Bible to a one person in America, one in Mexico, one in Ethiopia and one in former communist Russia and you will get 4 very different perspectives of the very same texts. None of us come to the text without our own prejudices. None of us is objective. To assume we are is like M.G says, blasphemous.
peace,
Chad
July 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Watching the Daily Show right now - they have a great piece on satire thanks to the recent New Yorker magazine cover.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Excellent Crowder article, Christian!
July 15th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Adding in more specifics was probably a good thing in the update, as well.
Some more examples of the difference between “God said it…” as truth vs. opinion.
Love your neighbor - TRUTH
Penal Sub. Atonement as the only Biblical view - OPINION
Adultery is a sin - TRUTH
Drinking Alcohol is a sin - OPINION
There is only one God and the way to him is through Jesus - TRUTH
Certain words are ontologically evil - OPINION
Literal 6-day creation is the only Biblical view - OPINION
Homosexual practice is a sin - TRUTH
Homosexual temptation is a sin - OPINION
In depth teaching of sin and hell are required in presenting the gospel - OPINION
Proclaiming the gospel in words and deeds is a primary Christian activity - TRUTH
By grace we are saved - TRUTH
Catholics are going to hell - OPINION
Man cannot save himself - TRUTH
Calvinism - OPINION
Arminianism - OPINION
Open Theism - OPINION
ANY Systematic Theology - OPINION
This is not to say that there are opinions more based in Scripture than others, but it is to say that some degree of humility is required to allow for biblical disagreement in such matters.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:28 am
most of the “opinion” one sound like the articles at Slice and CRN… substituting their opinions for truth… exchanging the Truth of God for a lie (or just self opinions)… so on and so forth.
Lots of opinions, but not much truth….
And that’s my opinion.
iggy
July 16th, 2008 at 7:32 am
This is a great conversation…good stuff.
There is so much I need to learn.
You ALL are helping me so much.
I’m glad I found this site.
Have a blessed day.
Shalom
July 16th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Dunkin’ is better than Starbucks - TRUTH
July 16th, 2008 at 7:41 am
This blog emloys the same methods and attitudes that it criticizes TRUTH
This blog employs the same methods and attitudes that it criticizes OPINION BASED ON TRUTH
Paul offering his “opinion” as judgement:
1 Cor 7:
25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy;
39A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. 40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
Chad says:
“M.G.
I find that very interesting. Let us hope that Ken’s guiding hermeneutic principle is not numerology else he might say that since 11 is not 7 nor 3 or a combination thereof it is irrelevant.”
and you criticze me asnd others for allegedly using “strawman” arguments.
Thanks for proving my point.
BTW, Open Theism, and all its variants, is heretical opinion.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:47 am
Yes, that’s basically what I was getting at (although, I may have said it a little clumsily given I wrote my comment right before I went to bed).
I just don’t understand why people think we can read the Bible and not use the same common-sense type of reading skills that we use with other things. When people read Huckleberry Finn, they know that they have to understand some things about 19th century southern American culture. Yet, we think people can pick up the Bible and get the full story without knowing anything about the ancient near east or Greco-Roman culture by and to whom it was originally written. I’m sure people can get a lot of good out of reading the Bible without knowing this stuff, but they’re bound to miss a lot, too.
I’m not saying that we should treat the Bible as purely literature. It’s definitely inspired and authoritative. That doesn’t mean it’s always easy to understand, though.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Huh?
I keep hearing that, yet don’t quite see how that conclusion is drawn.
Maybe I’m just daft.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:53 am
lol…
I just can’t bring myself to like DD’s coffee (nor their donuts, either, for that matter). I guess I’m a corporate shill because I really do like Starbucks a lot better. I even like the Pike’s Place roast.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Chad says:
Chris P -
I apologize that my attempt at humor was lost on you. In any event, that is not a strawman, it is just not funny (in your opinion).
And Chris, the way Paul uses “judgment” in the text you cite is not in the sense I think you hope it means.
peace,
Chad
July 16th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Brien McLaren on the atonement, in an interview:
My e-mail address for your apology is listed above.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Joe Martino, Here is Rob Bells own words, which I said were an illustration of bricks vs. springs….how is this slander?
As soon as you get the log out, you can forward the apology.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:07 am
We need to say thus saith the Lord regardless of the response- because it is the TRUTH.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:07 am
John, are you even a Christian?
Did you miss these words? What if
I truly believe you are an agent of the enemy
July 16th, 2008 at 8:08 am
What if…
July 16th, 2008 at 8:09 am
John C-
I think you missed something crucial here. McLaren is challenging the “traditional understanding of hell” and is not denying substitionary atonement (if that is the case you are trying to make). The traditional understading of hell is, in part, some huge scare tactic used to bring people to Christ. McLaren is saying that this lies in stark contrast to the cross, which is not about intimidation but about self-denial and sacrifice.
Demanding apologies isn’t all that cool, in my opinion.
peace,
Chad
July 16th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I was typing as Joe posted.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:10 am
Oh and John, I wouldn’t be looking for an apology any time soon, I’ll be willing to stand against your lies, misrepresentations and slander for as long as it takes.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:12 am
John C (or shall I say pastorboy),
That’s still not denying the atonement. He’s not denying the death and actual, physical resurrection of Christ. That would be heresy. I’ve read almost all of McClaren’s books (the only ones I haven’t are a couple of his earlier ones, like Church on the Other Side), and I can assure that in none of them does he deny that Christ died and rose from the dead.
I think if we take the position that we know the exact reason why Christ died, it’s just plain arrogant. Now we can say that the we know part of the picture, we see part of the mystery. But to say we know it all perfectly is just misguided.
Also, I would note, that McLaren makes a good point there. The crucifixion wasn’t God killing Christ as an act of punishment. It was Christ willingly offering His life as ransom for many.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:14 am
If it’s not slander, it’s at least a display of poor reading comprehension skills…
July 16th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Chad, I almost agree….
Love your neighbor - TRUTH
Penal Sub. Atonement as the only Biblical view - OPINION (no one ever said it was the only biblical view….But it is the view that is based on the most biblical truth)
Adultery is a sin - TRUTH
Drinking Alcohol is a sin - OPINION (no one ever said drinking alcohol is a sin, least of all the apostle Paul~but getting drunk is, as well as not being concerned for the weaker brother…)
There is only one God and the way to him is through Jesus - TRUTH
Certain words are ontologically evil - OPINION (based on truth, Let NO UNWHOLESOME WORD proceed out of your mouth…I cannot see how dic#, f*&k,s*7t, etc. are wholesome….
Literal 6-day creation is the only Biblical view - OPINION (based on Biblical Truth)
Homosexual practice is a sin - TRUTH
Homosexual temptation is a sin - OPINION (temptation is not sin, no one ever said it was. It is the falling to temptation that is sin)
In depth teaching of sin and hell are required in presenting the gospel - OPINION (this is a straw man…no one I know goes into a detailed description of hell, however, if they do not know about sin, the cross is foolishness)
Proclaiming the gospel in words and deeds is a primary Christian activity - TRUTH
By grace we are saved - TRUTH
Catholics are going to hell - OPINION (anyone who goes after their own jutification by works is under a different gospel, Galatians 1:8)
Man cannot save himself - TRUTH
Calvinism - OPINION based on Biblical Truth
Arminianism - OPINION Based on Biblical Truth
Open Theism - OPINION Based on hyper-arminianism
ANY Systematic Theology - OPINION
July 16th, 2008 at 8:17 am
John C-
Why did you leave out the rest of Bell’s words where he says that he, for one, affirms the Virgin birth has historically and orthodoxically understood?
Bell’s point is an important one and you miss it. He is saying that EVEN IF something like this were discovered his faith would not be altered in the slightest. I hear people all the time insist that if Jonah wasn’t REALLY swallowed by a whale and that if this were in some way proven that they would lose all faith in God’s Word. That is just nonsense, and its a sad way to live as Christians. It doesn’t have to be that way. In the end, I would say that Bell’s God is far bigger than your god.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Joe,
I know, it just goes to show. As I said, Rob’s quote was an illustration of bricks vs. springs. But, this is a CRUCIAL doctrine that Bell questions in his wildly ppular books that is read by people who have not yet come to faith in Christ, or have a weak faith, they can get confused and begin to believe some of the lies that people do talk about…like Jesus was just a human!
If you cannot see that, you may be in a cult, sorta like Red Sox Nation.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:24 am
John C-
I have never in my whole life met a single person who came to faith in Jesus Christ because they first understood the doctrine of the virgin birth. It is only a detriment to a life lived in Christ when people like you call it CRUCIAL.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:24 am
In the end, Chad, I would say your entrance into heaven is far wider than God’s…
And that is sad, because in the end, our OPINION does not matter. All that matters is the TRUTH.
And Bell, McLaren, Pagitt, and Jones are raising up a generation (or giving voice to it) that questions God’s truth and may end up outside of the very kingdom that they claim to embrace. And that scares me and drives me to fight for the truth.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:27 am
John,
Salvation is not just and only about “entrance into heaven.” And yes, I do believe God is far more gracious and his love is far more reaching than you or I will ever be - thanks be to God.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Chad,
If you cannot see the importance of right doctrine, I fear for your church.
If Jesus was not born of a virgin, then
God is a liar
Isaiah is a false prophet
Jesus is a human only
Jesus as a human was born in sin
Jesus’ death on the cross is for him alone
The resurrection is a fairy tale
We are to be most pitied… because there is no forgiveness of sins!
Nice straw man, though, I do not come to people with a book of doctrine. My point with Bell is that many people who read his books are seeking, and take what he says as truth based on the Bible, because he , after all, is a pastor. They do not take the time to do the research in the Bible. They take VE as gospel.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:32 am
John C,
You are simply misrepresenting Rob Bells point. In fact you are affirming it! You seem to be very shaken at the prospect that you faith could be challenged. Rob was not s