The Double Standard?
Ken Silva put out a short notice to his readers today. In it he addresses the Ray Comfort issue that has divided the ODM community all together. I found this quote particularly interesting
All I’m going to do is simply remind everyone that we were only critical of his decision and not of Ray personally or his ministry. So please do not let this issue become divisive us for us here or in the larger Body of Christ. I said what I felt led to say and Ray Comfort, who is a brother in Lord, has said what he felt led to say. Therefore we leave the issue is now in the hands of the Lord
I wish that same grace would have been extended to Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, etc. when they partnered with people of questionable theology. It is interesting how our tone changes when we have to deal with people and situations closer to home. It is no longer “us vs. them”, but now “us vs. us” in the ODM camp.
I found it even more ironic that the next paragraph was Silva asking for prayer as he pursued more secular speaking engagements. This was then followed by a request for money, and an a paragraph in which he has to explain his often over-the-top tactics.
However, in today’s world this is often confused for personal attack and/or my being unapproachable and/or mean-spirited. But while I am very direct, anyone who has made the time to approach me quickly finds I am hardly mean-spirited but rather committed to God’s Truth as I see it.
It appears that as Apprising and CRN struggle for money in this failing economy, they must back track a bit in their methods. While Silva’s close friends may know the kinder and gentler Ken Silva, most of us only know the fiery writer/prophet that often leaves little to the imagination when it comes to his feelings about certain individuals in the Christian community. In my opinion, it may be too late to recover his reputation in order to finance his ministry
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
103 Comments(+Add)
Yep. Definately a double standard. Something we should all be on guard against.
Where is the double standard? Ken’s disagreement with Comfort has nothing to do with any bad theology on Comfort’s part–he’s obviously not a WOF preacher. It’s about how he think Comfort should handle the invitation and what he should say.
While with such as Bell, the points of contention have been about what Bell teaches all the time.
Ken seems to be saying this, that disagreements with Comfort about this shouldn’t be taken too far and lead to a breaking of fellowship. In that sense, I think it’s being handle far better then the dust-up with Zecharias a few months ago.
But there is no double-standard here.
Quick question, friend.
How often do you listen to Rob Bell’s sermons?
You mentioned “…what Bell teaches all the time.”
I would agree with pillage.
Say what you want about Ken’s “tactics” in general. But there is a bigger difference than simple circumstance between denouncing Rob Bell or Warren, etc., than with Ray Comfort.
There is a disagreement in almost totality between Ken and Bell. even you would have to admit that the differences are far more than who Comfort and Bell associate/affiliate/whateveriate with.
In terms of basic, and also detailed theological views Comfort and Bell are quite different. Ken agrees with Comfort for the most part and not at all with Bell for the most part. That means that the reaction MUST be different when the same mistake/bad decision/even sin is committed by either one.
That is not a double standard Nathan.
That’s my two cents.
“the Ray Comfort issue that has divided the ODM community all together. ”
Ah, too bad. I’m afraid we see some wishful thinking here.
“Ken agrees with Comfort for the most part and not at all with Bell for the most part.”
Exactly.
“It appears that as Apprising and CRN struggle for money in this failing economy, they must back track a bit in their methods.”
Oops, this looks like very wishful thinking. O, and thanks Nathan for “the Google juice.”
A double standard would be if the ODM’s said nothing at all. Letting the people that agree with them get a free pass. I don’t see the double standard either?
Of course there is a double standard. We only have to go back to Piper’s invitation to Mark Driscoll and nothing was said. Paul Washer holds extended mourner’s benches as per Finney, and suggests if he did not deal with a sinner to see him to Christ he would have gone to hell. Ravi speaks the gospel to Mormons and he is castigated, while Comfort is a committed brother in Christ so let’s move on.
I think the double standard is in tone and visciousness. I await the creative name calling for Comfort. How about the “Way of the Compromiser”? See, it isn’t so much they don’t attack Comfort sufficiently, it is that they go overboard in attacking others and such is the double standard.
Amen to that. The difference being that one is wrong and the other is far closer to being right while remaining humble enough not to gloat about it.
“the other is far closer to being right while remaining humble enough not to gloat about it.”
Thanks Chad. That’s because I firmly believe 1 Corinthians 15:10. But for God’s grace I’d be the one deluded like Rob Bell is.
There is a HUGE double standard. The ODMs attack their “opponents” all the time for simply partnering with people/organizations of questionable theology. They then build huge, nasty stories just around the fact that they are partnering with them, not their theology. So, Rick Warren now supports aborting babies because he partnered with Obama and never rebuked him for it.
But will they rebuke “conservative” politicians who cooperate and rub shoulders with unsaved heretics? How about the founding fathers some of which were slave owning philanderers? Or Martin Luther who was a foulmouthed anti-semite sometimes given to drink?
They hold men’s personages in admiration. The issue is that they should disagree with others in the same gracious tone as they do Comfort. I will continue to believe that anyone who flies the “Reformed” flag is treated noticably different. And what does the reformed flag look like?
It is all black with a small patch of white representing the elect, with a slogan on the bottom “Don’t tread on me!”
All Christians appear to have a double standard at some point or another. It comes with being human and attempting to follow God’s standards, which inevitably results in hypocrisy along the way.
Continue to pray for Mr. Silva and the rest of the ODMs.
“It comes with being human and attempting to follow God’s standards, which inevitably results in hypocrisy along the way.”
You make some good points, however please let me refine this one sentence.
Regarding the seemingly constant plea for financial support over at AM:
My father used to comment on these type of pleas in churches that when God gives a vision He also supplies for that vision. We need to consider if some vision is really from God if there is not the necessary support to fulfill that vision or the end of that vision has been reached. I found this to be true in my own ministry thus far.
I really struggle to see how criticising and attacking brothers and sisters, complaining about and accusing everyone who doesn’t see as I do, can be a ministry in the body of Christ. To me it sounds more like the a job for the Accuser of the bretheren.
What is the difference between God’s truth and “God’s truth as I see it?”
The former I can accept; the latter has been fertile ground for perverting Scripture, heresy and apostasy for centuries.
Not an accusation, but an observation.
Nothing.
Eugene-
And what name was given that office in Scripture?
And when you answer, please do your best Dana Carvey impression while boasting a gray wig and floral dress
(With you being in God’s country the humor may be lost on you, friend. Go to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvpRjv4ywjk
Good points, Eugene.
Why haven’t I heard of the Church Lady? Gap in my upbringing!
Oh I love this:
Thanks Chad.
This line killed me
Can you imagine if someone not on their “approved list” said something about God’s Truth as I see it? Imagine if Rob Bell or Erwin McManus said that.
That’s my point exactly, Joe. God’s truth is objective; “God’s truth as I see it” is highly subjective.
“God’s truth as I see it” explains:
Why there are so many cults;
How so many people can use the Bible as a proof-text;
How and why people will accept only those parts of Scripture that afffirms an existing theological presupposition or bias;
How one can blind oneself from seeing all of God’s truth; and
Why people with opposing truth claims can both be wrong, but they can’t both be right.
Sandman, I was nodding the whole way through your list and then bobbed a bit here. I am not sure I disagree with you but not sure I entirely agree. I think it might depend on what “truth claim” you have in mind. It might not be a matter of wrong and right, as if one side is entirely right and the other entirely wrong. Both sides might be right, yet only partially, while claiming what seems to us to be opposite ideas.
What do you think? It’s been a quiet day around here and I may just be typing to hear myself type
peace,
Chad
“Both sides might be right, yet only partially”
This statement can not be true concerning truth. Truth, in itself, is never partially right…Truth is right in its entirety. Both sides can not be right concerning truth if their answers or views are conflicting. I base this on the law of non-contradiction.
“I think it might depend on what “truth claim” you have in mind.”
A question based on truth can not be and/ both…it has to be either/or. A truth question can not be both answer A and non-A.
Or even partially A for that matter because it would then conflict in some facet…
Jonathan, I disagree. You might be partially right, however.
Seriously though, I think you are confusing objective truth (that which only God knows) with subjective truth (truth filtered through us).
An example of what I am talking about is the 4 gospels (to pick a random one). 4 stories, all “true” (so we believe) and yet dependent on each other to fill in the gaps. They are in that sense only “partially true.”
Rob Bell has a great few lines in Everything is Spirtual when he pits the Calvinist and the Wesleyan against each other, one claiming to be right and the other wrong and all the while, from God’s perspective, God is saying about both, “Yep.” In this example both are different in their truth claims while both, in the end, may prove to be “right.” (though only partially).
peace,
Chad
“An example of what I am talking about is the 4 gospels (to pick a random one). 4 stories, all “true” (so we believe) and yet dependent on each other to fill in the gaps. They are in that sense only “partially true.”
I disagree…The truth that comes from the Truth is the whole truth in and of itself…God’s word is total truth is everyway because the comparting the scriptures is what man does not what God does.
“They are in that sense only “partially true.”
There is a major problem with this satement. God is not partially true in any sense, but I agree with you in the sense of not accepting the word of God in its entirety.
“so we believe”
Now your getting in the issue of inspiration or inherency or whether you agree in the perfection of scripture. This is the main reason why I believe scripture is total truth from the mouth of the Word.(This paragraph also pertains to the quote above)
Chad, what is your view of the law of non contradiction?
Chad, One more thing…Truth is never subjective….it is certain. It is exclusive and right in its entirety. Their are subjective views of truth, but we can never logically say that truth is subjective…
“Calvinist and the Wesleyan against each other, one claiming to be right and the other wrong and all the while, from God’s perspective, God is saying about both,”
Both Calvinism and Wesleyan are both man made doctrines and two different VIEWS on what the truth is. This is the problem with all this predestination/free will conflict…Can they be both, I believe so because of what scripture says, but the do not contradicted each other from the authors mouth! They can and do conflict when man tries to understand and title the infinite! It is here when I say, can’t everyone just preach the gospel and when we see him face to face we will know and understand how much of the sovereignty of God we didn’t even come close to understanding.
Jonathan, I hope you can see that by saying the above you have restated the only point I was trying to make.
I said this first:
SNL is a rerun…gonna head to bed. Have a blessed Sabbath.
peace.
Man #1 says: “My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”
Man #2 says: “My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”
who’s truth is really true?
Chad,
I believe there is truth, but truth through us is not subjective truth. That would be to say that there are two types of absolutes, the objective absolute and the subjective absolute. The subjective absolute, just as you observe the name, doesn’t make sense to me. There can be a subjective view of the truth, but truth itself is absolute without subjectivity within itself. Let me revise your statement in my veiw…
I think you are confusing objective truth, which is absolute and that which pertains to an all sovereign God, with the subjective view of the truth which is manufactured by the human derived definition or doctinal statement pertaining to and consisting of a limited view of an all sovereign God.
Nice talking with you Chad!
“Man #1 says: “My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”
Man #2 says: “My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”
who’s truth is really true?”
Nathan, these are not truths, but views . Man #1 view of th truth is his wife and the second likewise, but these are not absolutes.
Nathan, your question defends my view…Who’s truth is really true?….neither, for their points of reference are faulty and when you don’t have a absolute truth(perfection) as a point of refernce then you only have a human view…not a absolute.
Now if man #1 looks at his wife and says to me “she is my wife”, then that is an absolute truth if they have been joined together. Not because he/she says so. but the absolute truth made it so in his absolute word…
Sorry if I sound a little confusing, but I’m trying to put into words or examples what I mean…
19: Hi Chad,
It has been a slow day.
To be sure, I’m only focusing on the phrasing “God’s truth” and “God’s truth as I see it.”
There are many things that fall short of that (hyperbole and opinion) and are not germaine to this argument.
Here is an example of what I mean: The Mormons claim to be the only true religion, and the Watchtower Society says they are the one true church and God’s only channel of communication.
LDS says Jesus is the older spirit brother of Lucifer (Satan).
JWs say there is no Trinity and Jesus is actually the archangel Michael, the first created being.
Both claim to have the truth about Jesus, and yet they don’t agree. Further, neither of them is correct.
22: I can’t say the Gospels are partially true just because some have details the other don’t; I can’t even go there.
If they all read exactly the same way, the conspiracy theorists would be all over it. But since they each give an account of the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the core is consistently the same and the variances in details assure these people weren’t acting in concert, then I’m happy to fall back on “Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses a matter is established.”
Good morning, Jonathan.
I feel like you are saying the same thing as Sandman said in 18
To which Chad replied in 19
And then you said in 26
“Truth claims” are merely “views” of truth, unless I’m not understanding.
Sandman and Chad and Jonathan, feel free to set me straight.
Shalom
When we separate “Truth” from the person of Jesus, we then get into many issues.
iggy
“Truth claims” are merely “views” of truth”
This is true, unless your claim expresses an absolute truth…especially one that can be proven…
There are some absolute truths we will only know in eternity.
Example: Jesus said, “I am the way, the TRUTH, the life.” This is a most reasonable statement (because he makes no contradiction to it). Now, the only question you can have is “Is it true?” Well, if it is true and you express it, it isn’t a view but a absolute truth. If it isn’t then you are stating a view in which your view would be wrong, but you don’t know it. So the question is about truth.
This gives us the problem we have with such doctrines like Calvinism and so on…The truth about God’s sovereignty is so vast we can’t begin to comprehend it, yet some Christians, by way of a doctrinal statement, attempt to encapsulate it with a 5 point rheteric.
Truth is not a thing outside of us to be grasped, controlled, possessed.
Truth is a Person to be intimately known.
35: Nathanael, Hi…
Just to avoid people thinking Eugene and I are the same person, I think you meant to refer to my comment in 20, not 18. And to clarify matters, I gave an example of what I meant in 33.
When I use the term “truth claims,” I am saying “this is what’s presented as the truth.” I have to disagree with you about truth claims being merely views of the truth. If you follow that through to a logical conclusion, you end up with another form of relativism. (The following is not a personal belief of mine; I’m using it only to make a point.)
“This is true for me because it’s the truth as I see it. Somebody else can have a totally opposing view and that’s okay because it’s true for them.
“And as long as it’s one’s view of the truth, a person can make the truth whatever they want, and it should be counted as equally valid. Right?”
Nathanael-
You spoke for me just fine
Im off to the beach for a weeks vacation everyone! I will be checking in now and then. God bless you all.
Cheers!
Chad
Have a good time, Chad!
I dont see this as a double standard.
if it is a double standard,
then that would be like saying bloggers like Marino and Abanes and Freuh attack Ingrid for her views
but yet allow false teachers like Stan Johnson and Tony Jones and Creflo Dollar to get a free pass because of
they feel it is more important spewing hatred towards
anyone who criticizes Rick Warren and Doug Pagitt and Brian McLaren
and anyone who uses Discernment and takes
2 Timothy 4:3-4 and 1 John 4:1 literally
Hey J,
My name is Martino and I don’t even know who Stan Johnson is.
Now, that we’ve gotten that out of the way, do you really think that Mr. Silva or Mrs. Shlueter wouldn’t go nuts if Tony Jones made a comment about truth as he sees it? I can just hear the headlines now, speaking about the bloody ground covered in the waste of the reformers…blah, blah, blah.
Wow.
Discernment with a capital “D”.
Impressive.
“they feel it is more important spewing hatred towards anyone who criticizes Rick Warren and Doug Pagitt and Brian McLaren”
Apparently you have not read some of my posts or comments. I refer you to my present post, just click on my name J and you will see what I believe has imprisoned the “discernment” blogs.
Wow, J – it’s really impressive how you fit so many fallacious accusations and ad homenims into such a small space…
Perhaps you could direct me to an article on this site in support of Creflo Dollar or Stan Johnson (whoever that is)…
And, while you’re at it (for that matter) please provide links which support hatred of any person (being sure to discern between hatred of persons from criticism of actions they have taken)…
As for ‘itching ears’, it seems that the pulpits of Reformed churches are just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to preaching to the choir…
BtW,
Jazz… err … PillageWe’ve been asking everyone to drop multiple personas when posting comments – can you please get on board with this, as well?
Yes.
Let’s all just lay down and let people with their god-given ministries of anger and fear beat people back into the stagnating drone theology of compulsory suit wearing, pews, only 19th c. hymnody, and the highest moral virtue of conformity to middleclass social niceties posing as faithful Christianity.
Yes.
Then all will be well.
nc – And let us pass out “You’re a piece of crap” tracts.
Ken said:
I think we need to recognise that Ken is doing something here that I haven’t seen in any of his other posts – making a statement that indicates real humility. To admit that the Truth that one believes in is filtered through your own humanity is a huge step in the right direction. Moving from “God’s Truth is my truth” to the place where one can admit that you can only see from your point of view and that you do not see full picture is something that should be praised not criticised. His methods I do not agree with but this on statement I must commend him.
Sandman said:
Heresy and apostasy happens when “God’s truth as I see it” is preached and enforced as “God’s truth”. Humility keeps us from doing it.
I love Rick’s new post: “Arrogance and Ignorance”
Eugene,
To a degree, I agree with you about Ken moving into “humility” in this statement. I also hope this is true.
Yet, I fear that Ken sees his “committed to God’s Truth as I see it.” as more that God agrees with Ken’s understanding. This is where someone can justify attacking their brothers and sisters in Christ on one hand and then cry for unity for Ray.
Personally, I have stepped back for a while to pray and reflect. I ran into someone who went so far as to state Ken and Ingrid are not even saved and that as they judge, they will be judged… to not give mercy and grace and offer reconciliation they in turn will not receive it form God.
I would never go that far… I see them as my brother and sister in Christ, my fear for them is that they must suffer the discipline of God for their disobedience of not loving others. I thank God we are not under the Law, for the strictness of the Law would demand that Ken and Ingrid be judged as this individual stated.
Jesus was not held to the Cross by the nails, but by His great love for us. I know He loves Ken and Ingrid as much as he loves me or anyone else. I pray daily for Ken and Ingrid to find the Grace and Mercy of Christ and to learn to give it away with Kindness. I pray we all can do this… mostly that I also do this.
I to am committed to God’s truth… yet I also understand my understanding of His truth may be greatly flawed so pray for Grace to learn and grow in my knowledge of Christ who Life now lives in me. I pray this for us all.
iggy
I was away all day.
Sandman, thanks for clearing that up.
Shalom
Rick!
Hahahahahaha!
chris, the fact you and the other emergent bloggers on
here seem more intrested in not speaking out against Stan Johnson or Todd bentley or Creflo Dollar
and yet will go after anyone who uses DISCERENMENT is proof enough you support Creflo Dollar
if Martino and Frueh and Abanes spoke out on guys like Creflo Dollar
as much as they speak out on Ingrid or Ken or anyone who is critical of the Emergent and Seeker-sensitive preachers
than maybe you guys might have more credibility than some of the ODM bloggers
by the way, dont give me that Ingrid is more dangerous
you only say she is more dangerous cause you guys hate her for speaking out on questionable preachers and teachers
Todd Bentley and Creflo Dollar are premier heretics.
Ken and Mrs. Schlueter are not heretics. My difference with them is methodology. In the future, refer to this comment to refresh your memory as to my “speaking out” about these health and wealth heretics and borderline apostates.
rick, how come you dont speak out as much on Bentley or Dollar
I mean, even you got to admit they are worse than Ingrid
Why don’t I speak out against Joseph Smith more either?
Too easy. Who will I convince? Anyone following those guys needs a miracle. Anyway I choose subjevtively who I speak out against, it’s better for me that way!
BTW – I have a new single coming out. It’s called,
“Fifty Years Ago I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It!”.
so in other words, frueh
you dont care there are false teachers like creflo dollar and jerry savelle
spreading spirtual poison
i guess that would mean, you are a enabler
who makes excsuses for fnot speaking out against alse teachers
Case and point, there are hundreds of ministries showing the health and wealth gospel for what it is, total bunk…
However, there are a precious few ministries/websites/whathaveyou that counter the hate/slander/lying Ken, Ingrid, et al, pump out daily
Case, meet point.
On January 1, 2007 I posted THIS on my blog.
I accept American Express apologies.
I apologize to you Frueh, at least you are saying something about Creflo Dollar and Kerry Shook and Osteen
but I think you guys should be as vocal about Dollar and Osteen and Shook
as you are towards Ingrid and her ilk
JoeC, you are wrong. no one unless they are stupid or outright lying would say that the guy at
http://www.alittleleaven.com
is worse than Creflo Dollar or Mike Murdock
the problem JoeC with your logic is, unlike Ingrid,
the WOF teachers have millions under their control and leading people astray in the name of greed
bBTW, your argument would have some credibility
if christians and in particular guys like you
spoke up against folks like Dollar
as much and as vocally,
as you guys do on your blogs
against Ingrid or Chris or Ken and folks in the ODM movement
whether you like them or not, at least John Piper and Roger Oakland and John MacArthur have spoken out against the WOF grifters
I have yet to see any Emergent church leader
or any emergent church
or seeker-sensitive church supporting blogger other than Frueh
publically speak out against the Prosperity Gospel.
I mean, has anyone wondered why Rob Bell and Dan Kimball or Tony Jones or Spencer Burke
are so silent if they are really wanting what is best for christians
they could have a lof of influence in the church, if they publically called out the WOF garbage
I am not totally versed in the emergent/emerging culture, but I assume Spencer Burke is not in the same category as the other men you mentioned.
how, so Rick
how is he different
Even some emergent people consider some of Spencer Burke’s view as seriously heretical. I think I heard Kimball say that.
You know, this whole Lakeland/WoF topic was covered on this site June 17, 2008. The same statements by some of the same people are being necromanced.
I’ve noticed this tendency in too many churches where everyone just sits in their seat all stiff and starched looking at the pastor waiting for him to do something.
We are supposed to be the church, so instead of sitting around looking cross-eyed and crazy because somebody else’s pastor isn’t dropping everything and giving your special interest the attention you seem to feel it deserves, maybe, possibly, could it be that God is putting something (a burden perhaps) on your heart and is inviting you get off the bench and get in the game?
Sandman – exactly. When the preachers says God told him to kick a lady in the face I cannot believe it. If he said in the butt, well, I might see some apostolic support for that, but not face. Anything above the shoulders is not of God – anything below the neck might be God.
And the footwear must also be divinely apporoved. Biker boots = Satan. Hush Puppies = God. We must be discerning on these things.
God wants everyone rich = Satan.
God want me rich = God.
I will be posting a comprehensive article on why Charles Manson cannot be Jesus. There are some glaring errors in his claim.
sandman, chris didnt really say anything.
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/06/17/todd-bentley-the-lakeland-revival/
is the article you are talking about and chris didnt say much
show me evidence that Kimball has criticized (Burke
“show me evidence that Kimball has criticized (Burke”
Kimball asked me not to say anything. Sorry, it’s private.
Actually, I believe it was Scot McKnight. I get all the little action figures mixed up!
Since when are Christians supposed to be known by whom we criticize? What a ridiculous way to decide who’s right and who’s not.
It seems like a lot of us have our priorities mixed up if we’re primarily known for our opinions about other Christians, or those who call themselves Christians.
Don’t push me, Phil, or you will be back on my list.
When I tell people I’m a Christian the first thing they want to know is what do I think about Phil Miller. I’m tired of covering for you.
J,
Did Chris really not say anything, or did he not say anything to your satisfaction? Did others not respond to you in that thread?
Also in keeping with the stated purpose of this site and the graphic associated with that post, there are plenty of ministries and sites that specialize in cults, and false and heretical teachings in the church. They’ve been doing what they do for a very long time, and they are very good and knowledgeable sources of information.
People who are just now getting their skivvies in a twist over what’s going on in Lakeland are very late getting to the party. Where was all this sic ‘em mentality — where were the Johnnys-come-lately when the Christian Identity Movement, Robert Tilton, Rev. Ike, Peter Popoff, the Toronto Vineyard, the laughing revival, etc., were in their heyday?
Phil, the song says they’ll know we are Christians by our love; so does 1 John. But that didn’t stop the Apostles from from being highly critical of the Judaizers and the Gnostics, though it can be argured they were outisders and infiltrators. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says to test everything and Romans 17:11 commended the Bereans for checking out everything that was being said.
Since I don’t believe in seven church ages, I guess the trick is to take to heart Jesus’ letter to the Ephesian church. They were doing everything a church could do in the beginning, and doing it well. But over time, they began to do everything without love, which happens in churches and mistries all over.
J,
I have… so I guess your world is a bit too small…
iggy
Phil, Amen.
As I was reading down through these lastest posts I was having the same thought myself and then saw your post (Rick, we have no doubt you thought it first, and that even before j’s tirade).
First there are those who say you are only “in” if you have all your T’s crossed and I’s dotted with respect to the doctrines we cherish and now we have moved into the realm of declaring people in or out based on who they hate or blacklist.
How has Christianity become reduced to worshipping a God of 3rd graders?
J,
BTW, I found that most the time these people you are condemning are busy teaching and spreading the gospel of Christ and don’t really bother with correcting the lies of the WoF.
I have people in my small group that really like Benny Hinn… and on occasion like a broken clock, Benny teaches something right.
Yet, for me to blast these people and condemn them as you and others suggest others need do, means they will leave the small group and not hear the truth. So I use kindness and love to lead them into truth as oppose to condemnation approach.
It works…
iggy
spoken out against the WOF grifters
J,
There are many Christians who see themselves as John 3:17-18 sorta Christians. They see it as their calling to proclaim the Good News rather than spend their time doing what Jesus said not to do – pulling up weeds or tares (Matt. 13).
I thank God there are people who spend their ministries talking about what they are FOR rather than all their energy talking about what they are AGAINST.
peace,
Chad
J,
If you’ll notice, I never said ALittleLeaven, or any of the ODMs were ‘worse’ than the prosperity preachers. It’s not even a Christian’s place to make that kind of judgment. My point that you conveniently avoided was that there are endless ministries exposing the prosperity movement for what it is, but there are very few ministries that show ALL of us Christians to be the judgmental hypocrites we really are, and that we sometimes act nothing like Jesus wants us to.
I’d also like to add, for the record, I think the prosperity movement is wrong. But here’s the deal, I have my own local body to deal with, those inside my immediate church family. I don’t even know those word faith people, nor will I ever meet those leaders. If I met a person who was ‘in to’ the prosperity movement, I’d share with them what I believe about Jesus and the Gospel, without condemning, lying about, slandering, or hating on them. Who here is saying they would do otherwise?
But you’d rather us sit in computer-chair across-the-world judgment of Christians we’ve never met, have nothing to do with, and don’t interact with. Interesting, but…what part of Jesus’ message was that?
Like I said, I have my own ministry, just like every other Christian does, that God has given me. And I have enough to work at with that. I can do much more good, in my opinion, working at that, than I can by ’speaking out against’ people I’ve never met in a different place of the world, to more people I’ve never met and never will.
Instead of fighting a virtual “TRUTH WAR” on the interwebs, by ranting at some Christian guys and gals trying to have a conversation on a forum, why don’t you go out in to your local body and serve Jesus Christ that way?
It’s…kinda more effective in the long run, trust me
PS, I forgive you for calling me an stupid and/or a liar. I understand that you probably just misunderstood/misread what I was trying to convey.
r,
Joe
phil miller,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zfbp50wsj8
might answer your question
anyone have a comment on the video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zfbp50wsj8
J – Bentley is like the Gong Show. There is almost nothing Biblical about him and his ministry.
Rick and J,
Now I am not endorsing Todd… but I think one should look at what he is actually teaching. Some of the stuff is the Gong Show… yet much of it is deeper and very biblical…
That is the problem…. Which is he? My other issue is that this “revival” ends when he says… not when God is done….
Yet look over the teachings at his website and most of it is right on… strong stuff…. deep stuff…
I too cannot watch the Youtube stuff as most of it is stupid but that is what is propaganda is all about. I personally am looking into Todd’s teaching and should be writing about him in the next month or so.
iggy
“yet much of it is deeper and very biblical”
Is the earth flat as well? Come on, Iggy, this guy is a bone fide heretic and blasphemous clown who hears from an angel named Emma. There is something deep about him but it isn’t truth.
Here is the link to his teaching… not to some yahoo on youtube
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=955&pid=916
The “angel” really bothers me, but to write him off as a “bone fide heretic” or calling him names like a “clown” then means that he teaches another gospel… He preaches Jesus from what I can tell in spite of the ” angel”.
iggy
Rick,
BTW… I am giving him the same grace as I give John MacArthur… not all is “right” but not all is wrong… I would at this time though not recommend either ministries for various reasons. But to me they are both extremes and teach heresy… One denies the Holy Spirit in His fullness of today (JM) the other teaches a watered down prosperity/name it claim it teaching.
Yet both preach Christ Jesus…
iggy
Chad,
You said,
AMEN!
Iggy, you are a strange wonderful man…
Eugene,
Maybe a little background will help.
I looked for this “angel” and it seems he is moving away or that some of the story was fabricated or twisted by his critics.
I know of a few people, one who has gone and seen it first hand who stated that he did not agree with some of the teaching, yet could not deny God was doing something. He has also seen first hand other revivals happening because of this “revival”.
I have people in my Kinship group who are excited about him, and the things they are excited about I have no issue with.
The issues I have are this.
1. The story of the angel seems to come out of the Kansas City prophets and Bob Jones who claims to have encountered this angel named Emma. When Todd talked to Bob, he mentioned he saw an angel and Bob stated it was Emma. I have issues with the KCP as I see that many of them are not truly prophets… or I am just as gifted as they are as I do the same things at my church myself. I see though I have great differences in theology.
2. There is a connection to William Brennan. In my life I have run into Brennanites and these people are most often under great spiritual bondage and confusion. If Todd is moving in this direction that is of great concern.
3. God can take what is meant for evil and turn it for good. If it is of God and being twisted, God will deal with it… Yet, God can use even this “revival” if He wants.
4. I am taking the position of Gamaliel in Acts 5. If it be of God, then it will do as God desires… if not it will die like the Toronto Blessings has.
I hope that helps… again, I do not endorse his ministry as I do not endorse a ministry that claims Grace in it’s name yet seems to not practice it.
iggy
I tend to side with Rick on this. When has God ever allowed or condoned such a mingling of truth and error? Regarding Todd Bentley, you either have to try to shoehorn him into orthodoxy, or you need crobar to pry him from the error(s).
I had a discussion with a pastor over lunch one day about a particular fad that was catching like wildfire in many churches. I asked about the erroneous teachings and proof-texting and context twisting coming from this. He used the meal on his plate as example of eating the meat and leaving the bones behind.
My response: But what if the meat is tainted?
It only takes a little bit of arsenic to wreck an otherwise perfect meal.
Sandman,
Who of us with without error in what we believe… part of our faith is the renewal of our mind…. that means we are all screwed up some way.
I believe Jesus stated this… in John 14: 26.
So I think that as He does this He can sort through the straw and hay… or remove the tainted meat in your example.
We tend to forget God knows what He is doing and will do it as He sees fits. He uses frail stupid and ignorant people most the time…
iggy
My father used to say that if God used a donkey He can use any one He chooses.
When God uses a person it says nothing about that person except availability but it does say something about God – love, grace, mercy, omnipotence. I thank God that we don’t have to have everything together to be used by Him.
Todd Bently… Well he is really, uhm, strange. (Not in the same way as Iggy though.) Some of his rantings remind me of WWF. But if God used a donkey…
I changed my mind Iggy. You are a wonderful man. A little bit strange still…
Iggy,
I truly appreciate what you’re saying. I’m not saying any of us have our theology 100% correct. At the same time, I don’t believe that means (and I don’t believe this is what you are saying) that all expressions of Christian faith beyond the Gospel preached by the Apostles are equally valid.
Jim Jones was orthodox at one time. Didn’t stop him from leading more than 900 of his followers to their deaths. Even though some were forced to drink the kool-aid, they paid the price for following a false prophet.
The Way was given and presented in such a way that a child can latch onto it. We tend to forget that. And we also know that when people fail to love the truth, they will believe a lie. And all too often we have people in church leadership positions too afraid to grow a pair and call things for what they are.
When people choose (or by being either deceived or misled) to follow false teaching, they often refuse to get back into the Word and flush out the tainted meat they’ve been fed. They usually shut the Bible and focus only on the words of their leader. They ignore those checks in their spirits, the counsel of the Holy Spirit, admonitions from other believers, etc. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
I got a meeting coming up after lunch. Have a great day!
Eugene and Sandman,
Mostly I think we agree… yet I think it is in the degree of grace we give the other we disagree with. If I was the little old lady who Todd kicked in the head… I might not think that was cool.
These things come and they go. Most often they last for a few months.
Rarely have I seen an actual revival. Most the time it is a charlatans that comes to town and gives emotional appeals and people give him lots of money… and cry and yet… sometimes people like my wife get saved out of it. Remember it is not the person… it is God who saves us.
iggy
Exactly. It’s fast, hot and soon burned out.
Here is where I am on the grace issue: I would never say your wife’s conversion/salvation is invalid because it happened in that kind of chuch. I leave that to God. Having said that, I would think she would have left that heavy on emotion/light on substance type of church behind as she became more mature. But a lot of people don’t and we need to be aware of that reality as well.
Sandman,
Within that church which had many issues, there were strong believers. One was a professor at the local university who lived on 10% of his income and gave 90%away. He invested a good year in me in teaching. I did not agree with all he taught even then…yet he was one of the best examples in my life… So within that “bad” was some good… and in that good God reached in in spite of the human error.
iggy
Iggy,
I think you misunderstood me. I didn’t mean to criticise Todd in a condensending way. I find what he is doing strange, very strange. If God chooses to work in spite of the strangeness… well He is God. Gifting or God working through any of us is all grace and says nothing about our caracter or how right our doctrines are. Some put their doctrine so high and claim perfection of it and still God works in spite of that. Others creates a circus act and still God works in spite of that.
I grew up in a penticostal church (my dad was a pastor there) and later were a worship leader in a very charismatic church (during the Toronto thing) so I saw and heard pretty weird stuff in my life. Currenty I am serving in a seeker sensitive type church. In all of these I saw God change people’s lives, not only bringing them to salvation but healing them from many hurts. This made me sure of this thing: God uses us broken, screwed up and erronous as we are and does His perfect work through us. How? I don’t know but He does. Why? So that only He can get the glory.
And oh Iggy, I changed my mind again. You are an interesting wonderful man.
You are an interesting wonderful man.
I prefer peculiar… it is more biblical… LOL!
Changing my mind so many times makes me dizzy!
Iggy,
I understand what you’re saying. Don’t pull up the weeds for the sake of the wheat. That I can deal with because that’s the reality we deal with right now. But it would be better if did what we could to keep the weeds from establishing a foothold and becoming so…weedy. After all, what farmer plants wheat in a field of weeds?
You have to understand I have a number of relatives in cults, so now you might have a better understanding of my (possible overstatement) combativeness on this topic.
I see it as light disperses the darkness… John in 1 John 3 tells us that God’s Seed is planted in us to destroy the work of the devil. I trust that as the True Light shines the darkness and all it’s lies will disappear.
Believe me I understand about relatives in cults. I have a mother-in-law who is a minister in Unity, cousins who run the Unitarian Church and so on. Yet, if I blast them with truth they will not respond. I found as I talk to them and note that they misquote a scripture, I might expound on it a little and let the truth of it seek it’s course. I have seen others be freed by the Truth… I rarely have seen a cultist argued into the Kingdom… in fact I can’t recall a single time I have seen that work.
I have been blacklisted in every town I lived in by the JW’s for letting them in and asking them questions they cannot answer. I have asked Mormons about their own doctrines which most I have talked to never even knew their church taught. I have shared with Buddhists that their way is much like the Mosaic Law and that no man can become perfect without divine help… I have conversed with Daoist who see Jesus as the Tao and slowly begin to realize that they can have a personal relationship with this Tao in the Person of Jesus…
All of these are baby steps and take time. There is no drop a tract an run… I invest in the person and love them and show the contrast respectfully. I do not always see the fruit, but sometimes I do and it is glorious! I take none of the Glory as I may plant or water, but God makes it grow.
blessings
iggy