you may not have a good purpose
I woke up this morning to this. I have to say it wasn’t the best thought as I sipped my extra dry cappuccino at Pete’s Coffee and Tea. I actually began to feel incredibly sorry for the many people who read this and will actually believe it. I mean, imagine walking through life wondering if the purpose God has for you is a good one, or one that will lead to total destruction. How would that change how we live… in complete and udder fear of the future. I mean, life becomes one big turn of the dice. Will God give me a good purpose in life, or will He not?
You see, this is the God of illogical predestination. He randomly chooses some to have a good purpose in life, and randomly chooses some who will not. And, you will / can never know which one he will choose for you. We are simply pawns on some divine chess board.
Now, we may not have the ideal life by human standards. I am sure that Jim Elliot was not planning on being speared to death, leaving his family behind at such a young age. But was his purpose still good? Sure. Hundreds came to the faith. And, if you ask Elisabeth Elliot if she has any regrets over the situation, she would probably tell you the same. His life had a beautiful purpose. Pastor Martin Luther King Jr. was probably not planning on being assassinated. But the good and blessed purpose of His life has left ripples in eternity. For those that follow the Lord, there is a great purpose for our lives (and Rick Warren would agree that following God is the prerequisite for having a good purpose in life).
If course, the ironic thing is that most of the people who would hold to this view probably believe that they all have a good purpose in life. This poster and ideology would only apply to anyone other than themselves and their pack of Christian friends.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Amen.
Good thoughts, brother.
You make a good point at the end. It is amazing how in a warped way, we tend to exempt ourselves from the very warning/counsel/advice/etc. we are so quick to dump on others.
Lord help!
July 7th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
There are two ways to look at that poster. If through the eyes of Calvin, then you are correct, Nathan.
But if the poster is a warning in and of itself, and if a person can change his ways, then it is a good object lesson.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
A better caption would be:
If you refuse the Words of Jesus, the purpose of your life may tragically become a warning to others.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
BTW Nathan - If you are not elect and your life’s purpose is ordained by God as a sinking ship, what can you do about it? And will a person who is predestined to be a sinking ship even know they are? Who is this poster addressing, the living Titanics whose predetermined destruction is meant to please God?
July 7th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I don’t know what this poster is actually trying to say, given the fact that a key term is nowhere defined — i.e., “good.”
“Good” according to who? God? God per your understanding of God? You on a subjective level? The Bible? Donald Trump? Some gang member in East L.A.?
Unclear. Problematic. Messy.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Wait! They are preaching arminianism at CRN.. and backhandedly promoting the Purpose Driven Life! LOL!
If the “downside” is that we can serve as a waring to others, then it is our choice whether we serve the Purpose (God’s which is what the Purpose in PDL is about) or we serve as a warning for not having served that purpose.
Great job CRN! Jacobus Arminius would be proud!
iggy
July 7th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Wait a minute, guys…this boat isn’t sinking, it’s bobbing to the surface, rising from the deep abyss.
new caption:
PURPOSE
Only God can take something dead and resurrect it and give it a purpose.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Too bad.
I really like the humor over at Despair.com.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
On second thought…
This could be a nice epitaph for ODM’s and their sycophants.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
1,2,3…
cue the: “youbecomewhatyouhate”, caaaawwwwww, caaawwwwww, I’m clever cuz I could say the same thing about you too, caaaaawwww, caaaaaawwwww.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I like that a lot Nathanael!
igs
July 7th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Other captions:
Sink your old life, Christ can give you a new one!
Reject hedonism and sink your yacht!
Watch out for iceburgs!
God has provided a life raft!
The party’s over!
July 7th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
The next audienceone cruise with Steve Camp will be cancelled…
July 7th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Rick,
No smilies?
July 7th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
igs,
I’ve always been a half-glass-full kind of guy…
July 7th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
July 7th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
what are the key codes for that one?
:RICK(
July 7th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Be the best warning you can - go down quickly.
This iceberg’s for you!
And down goes Frazier!
Who are you to question the Captain?
Your predestined Love Boat.
God has a plan for your life - enjoy the ride!
July 7th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Here it is Nathaniel:
http://faq.wordpress.com/2006/06/04/what-smilies-can-i-use/
July 7th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Your life - A three hour tour!
July 7th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Thanks…watch out, blogosphere! Just as Rick is settling down from his overusage of the smilies, I’m coming at you!
July 7th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I think that you miss the point. Most people look for the purpose as something that is good to them, make them happy in a wordly sense. But with God we know all things work out for the good. Like the examples you mentioned was it “good” that they died. No people would rather live, but it did turn out good.
I would say that this poster is decrying the PD and WOF movements saying everything is focused on you and how many creature comforts you can gain in this life.
How do you hanlde the verses sited by your counter parts. God makes some vessels for dishonorable purposes!
Anyways I think the picture and caption is fine. Our culture sees personal peace and afluence as the utlimate good, when God has a very different meaning to that word.
July 7th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
“Spiritual shipwreck - If you are the elect you rejoice, if not you sink.”
Captain Calvin
(Somewhere on that voyage first mate Michael Servetus had to walk the plank!)
July 7th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Kyle - To whom is the poster speaking? If it speaks to one who God created to be destroyed what can they do? Is God rubbing it in?
So if the purpose of a person’s life is to get caught up in the WoF movement and provide a warning to others - rejoice! We should than God for deceivers, they are faithfully fulfilling God’s will for their lives!!!
July 7th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
“And after David served God’s purpose in his own generation, he died and was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed.” Acts 13:36
July 7th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Kyle,
You need to read that section in Romans more carefully. Paul is basically telling the Jews that they have no right to be angry at God when He extends mercy to “objects of His wrath”. It’s basically Paul telling the Jews that they can’t just think of themselves as the “chosen ones” and everyone else as people God doesn’t love. Ironically, many Calvinists have fallen into the same trap as the Jews Paul is writing to!
July 7th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
This poster was not created to point out the error of PD or WoF. It is a tongue-in-cheek “demotivator” poster created by despair.com.
Here is the link to the original:
http://despair.com/mis24×30prin.html
July 7th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Are you kidding me, Nathaniel???
Wow.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
“We should than God for deceivers, they are faithfully fulfilling God’s will for their lives!!!”
Is this not what the bible promised. That false teachers would arise ect…We should thank God because He brought about those false teachers for a reason, for our good, to those that are called according to His purpose and love Him.
Also Jesus when asked the destruction of people, the tower collapse, and the temple massacre. Basically he said this is a warning.”Repent or you likewise will perish” Not really the same context but every false teacher has just help the church define what chrisianty really is. So there is a good purpose in the midst of the bad. Or is God’s arm to short to accompish His purposes?
July 7th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
“Is this not what the bible promised. That false teachers would arise ect…We should thank God because He brought about those false teachers for a reason, for our good, to those that are called according to His purpose and love Him.”
I thank God for pedophiles. See, Kyle, that is goofy theology.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Kyle,
God is not the author of sin. I don’t believe He ever wills for evil to happen. Certainly He is all-powerful and infinitely creative, so He can make something beautiful in its aftermath; but to say that He is responsible for evil isn’t a Biblical concept.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Phil,
Where do you see that in Romans at all.
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man,to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
So why does God find fault if He is in control and choose who to have mercy on. Like any calvinist would would affirm and any arminian would decry. How can he find fault still???
Basically according to this passage it is not our right to ask why God makes vessel for certain puproses. Kind of the samthing God told Job. Who are you to ask me??
Remeber Paul just said all of Isreal is not true Isreal, so he is talking about individuals and why some are loved by God and other are not. So basically God does because He is God and it is not our place to question His will and conusel.
God like he says in Peter, is delaying judegment day that His mercy and goodness might be exalted! Angles long to look into this mystery because they never say nor recived mercy. Goes back to the old question. Why would God creat us if he knew we were going to rebel and hate him in Adam and in ourselves. This is some of the answer but we must always remember not to speculate on who is what kind of vessel. The sercet things belong to God.
Anyways that is enough fun for today.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I just noticed that verse 22 starts with “What if…”
I never noticed that before.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
So is evil outside the control of God? Or is it something that was created by someone else? God is not the aurthor of evil, he never does evil and can not. But this is a HARD question how does it relate to God and His soverignty? hard stuff.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Unfortunately, Kyle, that is not an either/or question. You changed the subject and verb in each sentence.
Evil is NOT outside the control of God.
God did not create evil.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Kyle,
You really need to look at some commentaries of Romans to get the context and rhetoric that Paul is using in the book. I really recommend Ben Witherington’s. I won’t get into the details here, but even in that same chapter you quote, there’s this section.
Basically, Paul is talking to Jews who are content in being the chosen ones. He’s basically telling, hey, the fact that you’re chosen doesn’t mean God can’t choose those who were previously not chosen.
Remember, a text without a context is just a pretext for whatever you want it to mean.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Well nothing in creation has come into being apart from the will of God. So all I am saying is that this is a tough question even for a calvinist!
July 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
No he is talking to Romans, mostly genitles, and he is telling them that it is up to God’s grace not national identity that saves!
“Basically, Paul is talking to Jews who are content in being the chosen ones. He’s basically telling, hey, the fact that you’re chosen doesn’t mean God can’t choose those who were previously not chosen.”
We, gentiles, have always been chosen, since before the world was created. That is a long time ago and there is no changing of who is chosen. That would nulify the promise if God could renig. Again not saying who and who is not elect, that is not for us to know, just that God’s word can not be thwarted.
Remember when you take the text out of context all you are left with is a con!:)
July 7th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
God created evrything and some of His creation had the potential to do evil. That is not the same as when he created the stars. One is a direct - according to my will - creation, the other is within His permissive will and an indirect creation.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Even Paul calls evil a mystery. We surely should not rejoice in iniquity.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Nope, the church in Rome was founded by Jews, and they most likely made up the majority of the body. There were a good number of Gentiles, and there may have been conflict between these two groups. Basically, Paul is telling them that neither of them have the right to look down on the other one.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Unconditional election and limited atonement will always throw your entire exegesis way off throughout Scripture.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Nathan,
Someone may have already noticed, but I did not want to read ALL the comments to find out.
But where you said:
This would be referring to a phobia of future cow lactation.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
S.J.,
That’s udder-ly hilarious…
July 7th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
SJ –:)
July 7th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I don’t know how it relates to this thread but I just wanted to post some smilies.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
S.J. Walker: Pointing out Arminian-Dairy Farmer typos since 2006.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I’m going to milk this one for all its worth.
This is the cream of the crop.
Puns are my bread and butter.
Whoa, someone ought to ween me off here…
July 7th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I don’t know, those were pretty cheesy.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
False teacher - someone who doesn’t agree with me.
Heretic - an insect who lives in the scalp
Expert - a former spurt
Mature believer - someone who agrees with me
Committed believer - someone who agrees with me
Spirit of Discernment - agrees with me
Strong meat - agrees with me
Shallow milk - agrees with you
Wind of doctrines - questions
Red Sox fan - apostate.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
False Churches - Those who open the service anything else than a 100 year old hymn
Lying prophets - Anyone who says God’s news is good news
False convert - You have not confessed every sin you have ever done before you accepted Christ
July 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Liberal - teaching Christ died for everyone
Conservative - no gay friends
Orthodox - hates sinners
Pentagram - a message from one five pointer to another
July 7th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Research - I saw it on Fox network
Communist - He helps the poor
July 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Original language - Calvin’s Institutes
Exegesis - Spurgeon says
Evangelism - discipleship
Watchman - Jeremiah Timex
July 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
As one that has been in combat as a soldier(infantryman) and survived. It makes perfect sense to me…I’ve lived it!
July 7th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Not funny Rick
. In Boston growing up, we said that the Yanks were hell-bound. So just to give you some perspective, the other side always thinks the other guys are going to hell.
I know exactly what you mean Scotty. I’ve had those same thoughts during my time in the military and overseas. I often wonder “has my purpose been fulfilled? And is my time up, on this mision?” Weird thoughts…
July 7th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Canadian checking in.
May I say… who cares about baseball.
Hockey’s the real game.
Get with the program, people.
July 7th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Steve,
“Hockey’s the real game.”
Now you’re talkin.
July 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
GO BRUINS!!
July 7th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Joe C,
Boston Stinks! In baseball, football, basketball and hockey. If you want, send me your address and I’ll mail you a copy of the Super Bowl. You can watch in your bus driver uniform that gets you into the adult version of the Boy Scouts.
July 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS
Yankees = 26
Red Sox = 2
That is your brain on drugs!
July 7th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
NHL CHAMPOINSHIPS LAST 30 YEARS
Tampa Bay Lightning = 1
Boston Bruins = 0
July 7th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Kyle,
To a degree I agree with you reading of Romans, yet, the issue is not whether God “created” evil… it is that God bores with patience those “evil” and shows kindness so that these vessels of wrath become vessels of mercy.
The punchline that Calvinists miss is in verse 25 -33. I have yet to see a Calvinist go past verse 24.
For you see what Paul is stating is that the Jew, (Vessels of mercy) have become vessels of wrath, and the Gentile (vessels of wrath) are now vessels of mercy.
that is why Paul ends this passage like this.
The Calvinist misapplies this to the Elect, yet Israel is the elect and they are now vessels of wrath because they rejected the “stone”.
This is not about God just choosing some and rejecting some, it is that some rejected the stone and stumbled over it, and rejected God and thus were rejected. Meanwhile those (Gentiles) who did not even seek God were found by God’s through His mercy, grace and kindness.
God’s Kingdom is upside down in relationship to man’s… Paul is showing this… that it is not by the works of the Law… or by being a Jew (the chosen elect) but by Grace and because of the promise to Abraham.
iggy
July 7th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Very balanced, Iggy. These verses in Romans deal with the issue of Israel and the Gentiles with Romans 11 giving a very clear chronology.
This is why when you misapply these verses you have to change all sorts of words elsewhere in the NT.
July 7th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
What’s up with SOL?
July 7th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Rick,
When I studied Romans 9 I realized I could never be a Calvinist as it would twist the passage to mean something is never was truly intended to teach. In fact the only one I have seen go to verse 24 is James White… Yet he is so either/or on nations and individuals that he misses it is both/and and has nothing to do with “election” in the sense the Calvinist use it for. Since this passage is the “Calvinist” passage and I see it as not teaching what they claim, then there is no way I can honestly be a Calvinist.
I have tried to point this out to a few, but they seem to not see that Paul’s conclusion is in these last verses and without them it is not tied together. They can only see what their tradition teaches.
iggy
July 7th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
You guys make me so happy I’m not a pastor or a Bible teacher, just a shmoe in the church on Sundays who does Gospel magic tricks for the kids at the Wednesday night services.
Seriously though, I’ve been fretting for years over whether I’m a Calvinist or an Armenian. I’ve been to web sites where Calvinists condemn Armenians as hellbound heretics (Fred Phelps) and I’ve been to Armenian sites where the opposite is stated.
I try to content myself with Paul’s simple statement: “I chose to know nothing except for Christ, and Him crucified” but I still have this nagging suspicion that I should hammer out my theology.
Well, I definitely believe in the total depravity of man. Guess that’s a starting point.
July 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
So what is the point Paul is trying to make? He is saying it does not depend one who runs, works, or wills. Salvation is from God’s grace and that is the bottom line according to Paul.
Also I think the distiction between a natural born Jew and a real “Jew” is important. The whole of nation was not elected to salvation, they where elected to a specail purpose for revelaing God’s salvation. Paul labors this point before going into this section and this is the point that most Jews missed that through them the whole world would be blessed. Remember the bible is progressive revelation, more and more is being reveled until the coming of Christ. So most, but not all, Jews missed that it was never if you were born a Jew and had circumsion with hands but it mattered if you were born again and had a curicumsion done by the Holy Spirit. I do not see how the verse you meation change anything. This is still personal but taking in categories because it talks of salvation for those who did not seek and those who seek it by works.
Also the discussion of evil is not related to this. More of a thinking question. In light of the doctrine of God how do God and evil relate?
July 7th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Kyle,
There is one verse in the KJV that states God creates evil, yet it is the word calamity and not “evil” as in the workings of Satan.
Jesus stated that it was blasphemy to say the workings of the Holy Spirit were attributed to Satan. And James states that God does not tempt with evil…
If God created evil, and all things in Genesis that were created were “good”, then being created by God, evil is good…
It is not a logical or biblical argument to state God created evil and it was good… nor to say God created evil and it was bad…
Steve,
My issue with total depravity is that if one is totally depraved, then how is one turned over to a depraved mind as Paul states in Romans 1… One being totally depraved can’t get more depraved, yet Paul states man knew God, but exchanged the truth for a lie and then was turned over to a depraved mind. This negates the “total” in total depravity. When I confront a Calvinist with this they tend to say, “Well it is not ‘total’ depravity…” which then really raises my eyebrow as that is double speak. Meaning it is but it is not and so it is…
Again, I have honestly asked these questions without a good answer.
I stick with, “All have sinned and fallen short the glory of God”. as that seems the best answer to the fallen state of mankind.
iggy
July 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
If this blog wants to be taken seriously then there better be a move beyond the maturity level of two year olds. Read through this entire thread, it’s an embarrassment.
iggy;
“The Calvinist misapplies this to the Elect, yet Israel is the elect….”
Now define Israel:
Romans 9:
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Romans 11:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way ALL Israel will be saved,
Israel is all who believe through the promised one. Israel is both jew and gentile and always has been both jew and gentile.
When the fullness of the gentiles has come in and the “partially hardened”, i.e. the remnant of jews have the veil lifted, then and only then, is all of Israel saved. Israel is God’s people, jew and gentile.
Romans 2 totally discounts biology as a means of salvation.
In case any missed it:
“He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy”
All of this is done by God’s sovereign election.
As for the sudden “discovery” of the
“what if”;
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.”
2 Thess 2:
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You can worship whatever golden calf you choose.
You’re so hell bent on ridiculing Calvin and calvinists, fundies and odms, that you don’t even care what is true, and what isn’t.
And for the zillionth time, I am not a calvinist.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Keep in mind that “total depravity” does not mean you are as bad as you possibly can be. It means that the whole of the human (every faculty) has in some way been affected by the fall (our mind, body, soul, strength, etc). Nothing was left untouched. In the same way, salvation is the healing of the entire person.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:38 am
I hovered between Arminianism and Calvinism for years, but in the end I realized the Scriptures were clearly Arminian. However I think I would have become a Calvinist had it not been for Calvinists.
Rick Gandhi - circa 2008
July 8th, 2008 at 6:44 am
lol Rick.
Can I ask something? Do people who talk about being or not being Arminian really understand that term? It is my contention that most people who claim to be Arminian are in fact Wesleyan. Wesley articulated Arminius somewhat differently (though importantly) in that it is not about free will but about free grace. Most Calvinists argue against Arminianism (and in some respects, rightfully so) when there are in fact very few Arminians - I believe there is still one Arminian church in the Netherlands.
Just curious.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:50 am
I do not believe in total depravity as defined by Calvin. Man is incapable of saving himself and indeed even helping in that endeavor.
I believe man is fallen yet with an innate sense of a creator and coupled with a free will he is also capable of seeking God. Many of the world’s religions, even though false, have been constructed by someone who was seeking the divine.
But only the Holy Spirit can draw a sinner to a saving knowledge of the Redeemer, but the sinner can and does sometimes seek God. The Calvinist view of the sinner is that he cannot and will not ever seek God and only if God chooses to make him alive will he come to Christ. That theology is Biblically and practically flawed, and when listening to some of the modern reformed/Calvinistis preachers they themselves abrogate its teachings.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:54 am
Chad - I am an Arminian mongrel who dwells in a mixture of Wesley and Tozer and Arminius. I believe that limited atonement especially is one of the greatest heresies ever taught by believers, second only to salvation by works.
To say Jesus did not die for the sins of the world is blasphemy.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Rick-
I certainly agree with you that limited atonement does violence to the work of Christ.
I would also say that I do not believe in TD the way Calvin articulates it. However, I would say that unless God first moves towards us we will not move to God. The Good News, however, is that God HAS moved towards us (Calvary). It is what Wesley defined as prevenient grace - grace given and available to ALL, not just some elect.
The therapeutic model of salvation, one Wesley would claim, states all are given a so-called “dose” of grace from inception by where we can either consent or dissent. A small “yes” on our part to the grace given leads more grace, so on and so on. We move from grace to grace, glory to glory, as Paul puts it. Yet none of this necessarily detracts from the long held view of total depravity. Wesley believed in total depravity - but he also believed in the total cure available to all the world.
peace.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:18 am
No sinner can ultimately come to Christ but by the Spirit. But I believe a sinner can start to seek God on his own, but in the end that entire process is a mystery. I am willing to admit the unseen workings of the Spirit are in the Godhead and not very easy to define.
That is another area of Calvinism and many other systematic theologies about which I disagree, they seem to be able to define everything with an air of certainty. There is a mystery in some of these things.
One of my best friends is a strict Calvinist and yet he got saved under the ministry of Karl Strader, a health and wealth preacher whose son apstor’s the church in Lakeland that Bentley is now holding revivals. Why would God, if He orchestrates and chooses everything, give credibility to that preacher by using him to lead someone to Jesus?
See, a mystery.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:32 am
“No sinner can ultimately come to Christ but by the Spirit.”
Agreed.
“But I believe a sinner can start to seek God on his own,”
My problem with this statement is that it would appear to make the first statement above arbitrary. At what point in the seeking does God then say, “Ok, I have it from here - good job”? Must a sinner seek well enough at the beginning for the Holy Spirit to then take the wheel? Those are just some of the theological problems I see with that, though it is not a hill I would choose to die on.
I know myself. I know that left to myself, I certainly would seek god - the problem is, it wouldn’t be GOD.
“but in the end that entire process is a mystery”
couldn’t agree more.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Salvation is a mystery.
Amen and amen!
I know for a fact that I never would have sought Christ if He did not first seek me.
I never would have loved Him if He did not first love me.
I never, in a million years, would have chosen Him, if He had not chosen me.
That being said, I find the hard-and-fast, black-and-white hyper Calvinism to be, as you say Rick, “Biblically and practically flawed.” And I concur that limited atonement is a horrible man-made invention that robs God of His glory.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Chad - a man is stranded on an island with no way to escape. His only hope is if a ship comes to rescue him, however he still looks and calls and seeks to see a ship on the horizon.
Another man on the same island doesn’t care, does not believe a ship will come, and moves to the other side of the island and lives his life.
Finally a ship comes and only one man sees it come and is rescued. The rescue was entirely due to the ship, however one man was watching and seeking.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Rick-
So in the end, the one who was rescued can say, “Good thing I was smart enough to stay on this side of the island.” In the end, our rescue is contingent upon how well we position ourselves.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Did he have a volleyball that he talked to?
July 8th, 2008 at 8:05 am
lol@Nathanael.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:07 am
And such is the mystery of free will. It is all of the Spirit and let us not forget that the free will is a gift from God as well. We can not glory in our faith, we glory in our Christ.
Sometimes God rescues the one who went to the other side and wasn’t looking as well. A mystery. Sometimes the boat goes around to the other side of the island and calls for the non-seeker to come aboard and the man refuses. A mystery.
Anyone who says they have it all figured out is deceived.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:11 am
I would only change: and such is the mystery of free grace.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:12 am
There were two men stranded on a desert island. One was panicked and angry at the other man for being so calm.
The second man stated, ” Don’t worry, my pastor will find us.”
The first man said, ” What?”
The Second man said, ” I am a BIG tither. The Pastor will find me.”
iggy
July 8th, 2008 at 8:13 am
OK Chad, we agree on most of it. But I and my good friend John Wesley believe faith MUST be exercized by the free will of a sinner to be saved.
Before death as well.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:14 am
This post, and the ensuing “edited” comments will be the subject of my next post.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:17 am
It’s like you said: Anyone who says they have it all figured out is deceived.
“faith MUST be exercized by the free will of a sinner to be saved.”
That is certainly true for salvation in the present. Thank God salvation is not tied to our temporal, finite,time/space dimension.
As our good friend said with his last breath: The best thing of all is, God is with us.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:19 am
Iggy, Ken, Rick, Tim, MacArthur, and Mrs. Schlueter were stranded on an island.
Iggy -”Don’t worry, we are all gonig to be rescued!”
MacArthur -”Only some of us will be rescued”.
Ken wrote about Iggy in the sand.
Tim cursed his situation.
Rick agreed and disagreed depending on the day.
Mrs. Schlueter cooked dinner.
See - A Mystery!!
(The previous story was an honest attempt at humor. Anyone taking it personally should lighten up!)
July 8th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t both Rick Warren amd Richard Abanes profess themselves to be Calvinist?
July 8th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Kent-
They might, I don’t really know. But the term “Calvinist” is so broad that such labels don’t do a person any real justice. Not all Calvinists are 5-pointers (very few are, in fact) and then there are distinctions even beyond that. There are even such a thing as free-will Calvinists. Go figure.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am
slight change to #88:
Rick traced smilies in the sand ad nauseam.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:56 am
I’m a zero-point Calvinist.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:18 am
“I’m a zero-point Calvinist.”
That makes you Michaewl Servetus.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:23 am
Well, let’s hope, for Phil’s sake, the island has no wood. Or at least no matches.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Chad - here’s a little something on Wesley you might enjoy:
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/01/christian-cruise-bout-thirty-years-ago.html
July 8th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Rick -
That’s a great post. That is one of my favorite stories of Wesley. Even just as interesting is what he had to say when he returned home from GA quite dejected and unsure of anything anymore. He said that he had gone to GA to convert the Indians only to realize it was he who needed converted. I love his introspective honesty. If only all of us could model that more.
thanks for sharing that.
peace.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am
–Remember when you take the text out of context all you are left with is a con!:)–
Well said, Kyle, very clever!! I’ll have to keep that one in mind. Very true.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:12 am
That doesn’t even make sense…
How can you have context without a text?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Yeah, I didn’t get that one either.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:28 am
What other explanation is there though Rick?? Its the main reason i’m more and more moving away from Christianity..Even so i may appear a fundie, i’m a stone cold heritic on the subject of orginal sin…
How can you get away from the fact , that a ALL KNOWING God created people who’s end is hell, and He knew that but still created them!!!!
Free will free will you shout, butttt can a person do anything other then what God as seen them do??
July 8th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Hey, Andy,
I would recommend you look at a few good books. One of them is God of the Possible by Greg Boyd. The other is The God Who Risks by John Sanders. They do a good job of presenting a few alternative views of divine foreknowledge. Another good one that is from a different angle is N.T. Wright’s Evil and the Justice of God.
Another thing I would say is that foreknowledge and foreordaination are different things.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Because the truth of the matter tradional Christianity equals
Three beings floated around for an infinate time,then said “lets make some beings, and one of will be called Satan and he will betray us,and then he will lead man and woman astray”..
And “you Man and Woman were going to create you
(even so you didn’t ask to be created),and your be born a sinner…
Oh and the big kicker is were going to judge you for it, and the penalties is hell because your totally sinful,because we created you that way but thats still your fault..
Haha brilliant,oh and btw i’m LOVE
“…
fairy tales!!!!!!!!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Can the pot say to the potter why have you made me this way?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:59 am
How can God find fault??? For who can resist His will???
July 8th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Foreknowledge is a verb as used in Romans, it is an action by God that leads to salvation.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Phil- All those are excellent book suggestions.
Andy - That is a characterization (and a poor one) of why God created and the ultimate plan of redemption for the world that God is bringing to pass.
N.T. Wright makes the point in Surprised by Hopethat some people think that if they cease to believe in a God as some bearded old man sitting on a cload that they have therefore ceased believing in God (and became athiests) and also, if they cease to believe hell is some place where God tortures those who didn’t believe in him (or that it is some firey pit with worms and such) for all eternity that they therefore do not believe in hell (and became universalists). He then goes on to say that there are far better reasons for not becoming an athiest or a universalist, but these are not them.
Andy, if you came to me to say you do not believe in God and then went on to describe God and God’s plans in the way you did I would agree with you 100% and tell you I do not believe in that God either.
grace and peace,
Chad
July 8th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Kyle-
God’s foreknowledge does not lead a person to salvation. The Holy Spirit does.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:15 am
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, forthose who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Everyone that God foreknows(which is a verb that God does not a genral knowledge) is saved it is pretty plan in the texts, a foreknowledge by God leads to Him glorifing us. Or am I missing it?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Hahaha Chad it maybe is a bad example,also i didnt say i didnt believe in God…
But u cant hide from the fact that God knows the begining and the end!!! which equals =
God created people, knowing who would not come to him…
And now to make sense of the problem, i have to read a book by a person, who is considered a heritic by 3/4 of the faith ??? Coolllllllll
July 8th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Chad answer me clearly, is my example crap if Boyd is wrong about God not knowing the future???
July 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Kyle,
You are leaning far to much on some idea of particular election/predestination which is the opposite of what Paul is doing in Romans.
The people Paul speaks of here is all of Israel. They were the chosen people of God “predestined” to be God’s light to the world, to reflect the image of God to all the nations. He is not talking about individual, particular people.
The beauty of all of this is that God has now grafted in even the Gentiles (Gentiles = EVERYone who is not a Jew = you and I and the whole world). God has in this sense “predestined” Israel and Gentiles to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. This is a remarkable truth and the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel - Jesus Christ died for ALL the world, and by this ALL the world is now “elect,” not just Israel. The fact that Paul is writing this to Rome, a Gentile church, is noteworthy.
peace,
Chad
July 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
For some!!!!
July 8th, 2008 at 11:33 am
So it is not taking about people and there salvation, Those whom God foreknows he saves. It can not be revocated because it is not dependt on man but on God.
So is ever gentile called then justified then glorified. This promise is for you that everything works for your good and then this great promise. Which is not based on national idenity but on God! If God is the one saving whay does this mean. That we are SAVED! AMEN!!
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Also in your defetion of election it makes no sense of Jesus’s warnings against false Christ doing miracles. The are going to be so great that the would even presuade the elect if it were possible. So no one in the world will be decived since it is not possible. Again the reason we are not decived is becasue salvation belongs to the Lord from begining to end. It is the Lord who saves not us.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Andy -
Yes, even if Boyd is wrong your example is still “crap.”
Here is why: God, out of Love, created. In that creation he gave humans his Image, and in that Image we too have the ability to create. We are, in a sense, co-creators (what Paul calls, co-workers) with God.
God created us with the capacity to LOVE. A desire to be in relationship with others and with our Maker, not too unlike the same relationship that exists within the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet God did not create us as robots. We can love, but we can love wrongly - what St. Augustine called “disordered love.” As we love and worship that which is not God (therefore, that which CANNOT bring life and healing) we become less and less human, less and less what God intended us to be. God wants us to become FULLY human, FULLY reflecting the divine image we bear. Yet we love wrongly. We become what we worship.
This dehumanization can spiral out of control and unless one repents (turns) from this idol worship they can in effect destroy any semblance of the divine image they once bore. They cease to reflect God in any capacity and they therefore cease to be human. This, is hell.
It is God’s desire that NONE should perish but that ALL might come to know the abundant life which Jesus came to give all the world. By your example, you assume you KNOW that God created people knowing in advance that they will reject Him and they will be eternally punished for it. What if Paul is dead on when he writes, “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all”? (Rom. 11:32).
This is a great mystery like the end of the story, Rev. 21&22. Here we find that there are some categories of people who are definately OUT. They have spurned God’s love and pleadings and have thus made their own bed. And yet, we are told that “the river of life run out of the city” and that there are trees of life on either side of the banks and their leaves are for the “healing of the nations.” Who still needs healing? Could it be that God, in his infinite love and mercy will continue to be the Hound of Heaven who eternally pursues those who rejected him in this life? This, again, is a great mystery. No doubt we will all be surprised by who this God “elected” and who is bowing before Him beside us.
grace and peace,
Chad
July 8th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Ok well we can agree to disagree because i think ur example is crap to!
You just don’t have the balls to have a horid God neither do i, but i’m not going to hide my head from the facts that can’t be disputed that HE IS ALL KNOWING…
You say we have free will and i can’t see that,oh yes we have a pretense of free will…But if God sees me trip up tomorrow i will…
July 8th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Kyle-
Forgive me, but I don’t want to miss your meaning and I am having trouble decifering your last 2 posts due to what appears to be typos. Could you clarify what point you are making? Thanks.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Andy-
There is no reason to be rude. I don’t understand where your hostility is coming from.
Look, it isn’t about what I have the “balls” to think or not. This isn’t about what sort of God I want. It is about the sort of God revealed in scripture. The way you characterize God is no doubt the way you have been taught and probably told and probably heard preached. At least recognize that none of us is objective in this and we all come to the table with baggage.
Perhaps you can go through my description of Gods salvific plan for the world and tell me which parts exactly you think are “crap” and why? That might be a good place to start.
grace and peace,
Chad
July 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Really quick according to the bible and most thinkers we do not have an elgalitirian free will. What was lost in the fall our moral ability to choose and do good. So a natural person has free will but will never chose to do good, no one will seek God, no one is good no not even one. So a defetion of free will is crucial to any debate on the topic.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
The point I am trying to make is that election is not about general nations or peoples, but is personal and loving to whom God foreknow, call, justified, glorifies. He elects people whom He loves becasue He is good.
Just commenting also when Jesus warns us about false Christ, saying that even the elect would be decived if it were possilbe. So according to the defition that you hold no one will be lead astray becasue everyone is the elect.
So why aren’t the elect decived?
July 8th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I’m not being rude,i thought u were maybe its the internet…
OK answer me one question please….
Do you believe that a sovereign God knew which people wouldn’t choose him when He created them ???
My hostility is not to you, its to the fact that Calvinsm is the only doctrine that makes sense, and i detest it so i’m screwed haha
July 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
No i didnt go to church till i was 16 ish and then it was a charismatic church,i would guess their more like you..
July 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Andy,
Jon Edwards said that when he was a christian before before coming to the doctrines of Grace he detested them and thought them also from the pits of Hell. But God through His grace brought him to a saving knowldege of Christ. He said himself that he was so opposed to calvinism, when relfecting on his life, that he consider himself unsaved because he hated the doctrines with such vigour and passion and they are the doctrines of God. That is way grace and love are needed in these issue for you might be fighting against God and His will. Kind of scary to think that one might be fighting against God while proffessing to love Him so much, myself included, it is a very sobering thought.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Do you believe that a sovereign God knew which people wouldn’t choose him when He created them