It Don’t Mean a Thing if it Sounds too Much like Swing - do wa, do wa
In a recent post over at Slice, Ingrid returns to a common theme - music. Her take is that certain styles of music are acceptable and certain styles are not - and this seems to apply to everyone. She offers a polemic by her husband to make her point.
The essay by Tom Schlueter reminded me of the comments by John MacArthur regarding the wearing of suits in church. On the one hand both the opinion of MacArthur and the opinion of Schlueter make sense… they even have some validity. Yet the shared flaw that renders their opinions incapable of being applied universally is their ethnocentric position.
In other words, their instructions may have value – in their narrow context. The problem is they both elevate their preferences to universal codes that all must follow.
For example: Tom Schlueter gives two examples of purely instrumental brass music – in the style of swing and fanfare, respectively. In the first “The trumpets led the brass in a clear call to listeners: get up and dance” the other calls the listeners to “Come and worship God.”
His conclusion: The [fanfare] brass in the second example tells us there is royalty present. The percussion at the end of the fanfare speaks not of dance and flesh, but of honor and respect and reverence. Different message entirely. And he is right – swing brass bids us come and dance, fanfare brass bids us recognize authority and honor.
But his application is flawed. He rightly differentiates the two biddings, but then sets up a false dichotomy – that honor and respect are valid modes of worship, but celebration and dance are of the flesh. His conclusion of swing, if used as a call to worship would be “Get up and dance… Women should start flaunting their stuff in front of men on the dance floor. This would not be worship at all, but rather a gross insult to the Almighty.”
I’ve been in worship services where people danced – I doubt God was insulted.
The problem is not one of style of music, but context and assumption. First the assumption, Schlueter first assumes dance is fleshly and swing calls women to flaunt their stuff – this I will summarily dismiss. The context is worthy of discussion.
Tom Schlueter uses a 9-11 memorial as an example of appropriate music – solemn music would be appropriate, a Broadway tune… not so. I agree. And if the point of worship is the “honor and respect and reverence” of God, then a fanfare might work. Where he fails is the recognition that maybe the point of worship is (at times) to dance and celebrate. And in this swing may work well.
If Schlueter had stuck to an argument that music should evoke appropriate responses given the situation of worship, then I could have agreed. But he could not, he had to insert his cultural version of what is appropriate in style and overlay those expectations on us all.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I, for one, would love to see Johnny John-john handle wearing a suite
June 26th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
or anyone for that matter…
June 26th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Not one single Scripture. Why? There isn’t any.
I love those who claim Sola Scriptura unless there isn’t any, then they invent their own Apocrapha in essay form. The music that Mr. Schlueter now plays is reviled by several denominations today, to say nothing of the early church. And they give the same reasons as does he.
God accepts and likes my worship. He doesn’t like what you sing to Him. Please tell me a more astonishing example of self righteousness than when we consider our worship as God’s favorite.
You want to see what kind of worship God loves? Check the heart, sir, that’s where God inclines His ear.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Typo fixed - thanks nc.
Neil
June 26th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
The whole argument is a non sequitor, anyway. The fact that we associate certain music with certain cultural customs doesn’t mean that those forms of music are ontologically tied to those customs.
It’s like saying people graduate because Pomp and Circumstance are played. He’s totally reading the correlation in the wrong direction.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Sometimes it’s pride that keeps us from dancing.
http://www.borrowedbreath.com/2008/05/19/dancing/
June 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Neil…
I thought it was funny. You should have kept it in.
Can you imagine…J-Mac wearing a suite?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
good heavens…Phil. THAT is funny.
Don’t look now, spontaneous graduation as I start humming P & C.
Mortars boards appear on your head, crowning you with academic glory and you are clothed in an academic robe…in the twinkling of an eye.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
As an half Irish man, I would play the piano while my wife and mother-in-law would help me sing halleluiah while our children played the tamborine and danced before the Lord in our living room.
Little did I know God hated it.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
well, now you do…
June 26th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Certain music evokes certain emotions. So the right mood/style/type of music should be used to compliment the words or context it is played in. But it is all very subject to culture.
To me personaly a soaring rock ballad would go together with awe of God’s majesty. Fanfare would be. . . Well not lekker.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Sorry, Rick, tamborines are close to being evil. At least in the wrong hands…
They should only be used by skinny men in tight leather pants standing in front of a wall of Marshall amps…
June 26th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
When it comes to worship music -
I NEED MORE COWBELL!
June 26th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Eugene,
Is “(Don’t Fear) The Reaper” a soaring rock ballad?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Did someone say MORE COWBELL?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Rick, we all do.
Critiquing musical genres is one of the most pseudo-intellectual things I’ve ever seen pseudo-intellectual Christians do. I happen to have seen a paper yesterday on the same subject, sort of, but it was about critiquing rock music from a Reformed perspective.
I had repressed memories come back of the way these Reformed people approach these subjects…they actually fancy themselves the ultimate in deep analysis of theology, etc., and 99% of the time, these papers are like 5,000 word treatises that can be boiled down to three: Load of crap.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Nathanael are you into the Cult???
June 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I think its best you just go non-instrumental, that way you know God is good with you.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I knew it! Tim you Calvinist.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Well, we know that Eugene isn’t part of the RM.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
At least when it comes to doctrine these reformed people have Scriptures to twist. With the music thing - no Scripture, just “IT JUST IS” presentation.
BTW - the man Chris L. presented is the worship leader in the Lakeland outpouring.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
RM - Rap Movement?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Restoration Movement. There’s a big chunk of it that makes non-use of instruments a fellowship, and sometimes salvation issue.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I often wondered how music in heaven will be like. Will we all like the same music? Will there be different stations you can tune into? Or will we all be issued with some sort of filter that turns the music into our favourite style?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“I often wondered how music in heaven will be like.”
Lots of chants.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
So you say the RCC will be in heaven, Rick?
June 26th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
I think the biggest problem with much praise and worship music is not joy, or gladness, or even dancing. The problem is, the dancing often comes before the right understanding of God and who he is. It is born out of a heart that is bubbling with emotions– emotions which a certain style of music could conjure in anyone– but they are not mixed with proper knowledge. The emotions are not coming from a deep understanding of who God is and what he has done for us in Christ, as they should, rather, they are the same giddiness that any rock concert or club atmosphere could conjure.
For the most part, American’s view God as a small, weak thing; their knowledge of who he really is is about half an inch deep, and their worship shows it. They’ve reduced God to a wading pool when he is a deep and mighty ocean. Most don’t realize how awesome God is and how terrible he is. God is not someone’s play thing. Everyone who met God in the Bible was instantly driven senseless, yet we treat his presence so lightly. If the sinless angels have to cover their faces, how much more should we have reverence for God. God is dangerous…and as Tom pointed out, “a consuming fire.”
What am I trying to say? As Christians we should be all fear and trembling? Of course not. We can approach God as children would a father through Christ. What I am saying is that before we can dance before God joyfully, we must always have in mind his greatness, his majesty, and the terrible awesomeness of who he is. God is traumatically holy, and we should not forget that. Once you understand the “terror of the Lord”, as Paul puts it, then you can dance. A proper understanding of God, though, will keep you from flippancy, irreverance, and flesh. Unfortunately, that’s what’s missing in the the vast majority of American Christians. They have no clue who God is and they probably wouldn’t like him that much if they did. Worship is just another fun “experienc” to most, and it’s tragic.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
If you think Tom wrote a ‘polemic’ people here don’t know him very well. He’s one of the nicest guys you’d ever want to meet. I know Tom and he still plays a variety of music. He just doesn’t think it all belongs in a worship service. What he wrote was narrowly focused–on music in worship. I’m curious because I don’t know this site well– and don’t know your views, but does anyone here think that any kind of music at all shouldn’t be used in reference to God? I’ve played and heard some pretty dark stuff in my time as a musician and am trying to picture that in a church.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I guess I don’t get it? Wearing a suite that is.
Neil
June 26th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I listened to a 20 minute sermon two weeks ago on why worship had to be done without any mechanical instruments.
As for music in heaven - since eternity will be spent not in heaven but on a new earth, I bet it’ll contain the arts as well.
Neil
June 26th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Sam,
That’s quite a judgement on people’s motives, there. I would say that it is work enough for us to keep our own in check before we go deciding whether others are pure our not.
I would also say that worship should focus on the transcendence of God, it should also focus on the person of Christ. It seems to me that the attributes you’re using to describe God are based wholly in an Old Testament view. But even then, I would say, it’s a Western view of the Old Testament because even Jewish worship tended to focus on the immanence of God to a large degree.
I guess I just have a hard time worshipping a God that you describe. Someone who really wants to kill me. It seems to me that Jesus paints a picture of God that is completely different than that. In Him, we see the God who is for us and near us. The God who is approachable. That’s a God who I an inspired to draw near to. That’s a God who deserves all praise because, truly, there is none like Him.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
NathanG,
Well was the music itself dark, or is just that it has come to be associated with things we think of as dark? I find it funny that I have heard Gregorian-type chanting on various heavy metal songs, because I think to a lot of people it sounds “dark”. In it’s original cultural contect, though, it was just music.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
By “polemic” I simply mean he wrote a piece to dispute a position… his was a polemic against the neutrality of music, mine was a polemic as well - in dispute of him.
I was very careful to address his logic and application, and leave the personality out - whether or not he’s a nice guy is both unknown as well as moot.
If he is as you say - great.
Neil
June 26th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
I agree, and that was partially my point. He wrote a narrowly focused opinion, but it was more narrow that just “on music in worship” he also narrowed what was acceptable worship.
Neil
June 26th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
It’s too far a leap to go from my polemic against Tom’s position to “There is no music that is inappropriate.”
My point was to suggest that the premise of the piece at Slice was as culturally bound as MacArthur’s motivation for wearing suits.
Besides, what is “dark” to you may not be to someone else.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I’d also point out that 4/4 time and most music (as we know it) is a product of the print revolution, and that ancient music had completely different scales and time than we are used to. (To get a better idea from a ‘modern’ perspective, listen to Indian (the country, not Native Americans) music and you’ll get a much better idea of what ancient music was like.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Wow. If people knew God like you do they wouldn’t like Him. Do you like Him? That is one classic statment.
The pastor’s invitation:
“Anyone desiring to know God come forward during this next song, I must warn you though, you’re not going to like Him that much”.
I need to start a scrap book.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Oh yea, that’ll get my feet to tappin’. I’m scared to death, let me dance with joy! This is what happens when you focus on one aspect of God’s character to the diminishing of the others. And what dancing does God accept from trembing creatures?
Lifting each leg quickly as if stepping on coals of sulfur?
June 26th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Rick,
I will say this - you certainly have a way with words…
I agree with you, though. I don’t think God desires worship out of fear..
June 26th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Did it occur to you that perhaps I doubt others motives because I often see the weakness of my own? You assumed that I was saying that out of a proud spirit, and thereby judged by motives. Humility is something we all need a good dose of, including yourself Phil.
You confirm my point exactly. Everyone loves to focus on God’s love and goodness, and forget that God is both good and severe (Rom. 11:22). All I’m saying is let’s focus on all of God’s attributes, not just the ones that make is feel warm and fuzzy inside.
If you think that was what I’m saying, you are mistaken. I am saying that we should most certainly worship God out of gratitude and love. He has been good to us beyond measure. What I meant by my previous comment was that, even though we can rejoice in God’s goodness, we cannot forget reverence for his person. What I was quoting was from Paul…in the new testament. So saying that I had an Old Testament view of God is ridiculous. Besides, the God of the Old Testament is exactly the same as the God of the New Testament. One isn’t terrible and the other one soft and doe-eyed. They are the same God.
So you would rather worship an idol? Its not the God I describe, it’s the God the Bible describes. It’s just the parts about God that everyone sweeps under the rug because it doesn’t make them feel good like God’s mercy and love do. We must accept what God says about himself, whether we like it or not. When we get to know him more, though, we will learn to love all of God…even the frightening parts. To know God is terrible will only make us appreciate his condescension and love for us more. It’s only when we realize how high God is and how low we are that the miracle of God’s love hits home. This is where true worship comes from.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Sam,
First, welcome to Michigan, I hope it treats you well.
But don’t you see a bit of contradiction in two of your statements.
This one:
And this:
I imagine Phil would say he is just describing the God of the Bible and you are describing an idol.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Actually, I don’t see a contradiction. The Bible speaks for itself.
I’m sure he would. But again, the Bible speaks for itself.
Old Testament:
“For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.” Deuteronomy 4:24
New Testament:
“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29
Old Testament:
“God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.”
New Testament:
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men”
Old Testament:
“Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”
New Testament:
“And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.”
Revelation 1:17
Scripture is very clear about what God is like. I know God is loving, but too often we forget the rest of his attributes. Those attributes should just as much inspire worship, though.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
And thanks, I am enjoying Michigan.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Good, I’m glad to hear it (concerning MI. Its not a place for the faint of heart).
Now I’ll let Phil post his cut and paste verses and we can get back to verbal pugilism.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:13 am
Sam,
I’m not saying that certain Bible verses don’t show different aspects of God, but I think that our final picture of God is how He revealed Himself through Jesus. To me, that supercedes anything else. God chose not to reveal Himself in strength, but through weakness.
Actually, the picture Christ gives us of God is in stark contrast to the pagan gods that surrounded the Jewish people in both the OT and NT eras. People were afraid of those gods, and were constantly trying to do things to appease their wrath and anger. When God spoke to Abraham, He set himself apart from the false gods from the start. He didn’t need appeased, and He wasn’t watching over our shoulders waiting for us to mess up.
So, I guess my main point is that I still believe God doesn’t desire worship based on fear, or even reverence and awe so much. He wants to captivate our hearts.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:25 am
The greatest, deepest, and most complete revelation of God ever presented to mankind is seen in the cross. Not creation, not judgment, not in omniscience, and not His omnipotence. A bleeding, dying, beaten and bruised, and seemingly helpless Jew on two Roman planks is the apex of human understanding of the Creator God.
All revelations of God can be distilled into that one, unfathomable act of glorious mystery. It can cause us to cry, to bow, to shake, to shout, and yes, sometimes to dance with joy unspeakable and full of glory!!
June 27th, 2008 at 7:28 am
It seems even a heathen can speak the Truth.
Instruments make great fire wood.
Will Farel
Burning
forthe TruthJune 27th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Harry Potter books serve as great kindling, too…
June 27th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Phil,
By your comment #45, it appears to me that you were at the Rob Bell “The gods Aren’t Angry” tour.
I saw him in Philly and loved it.
Rick,
As usual, you are spot on.
Good stuff.
And Sam, you bring up valid points. Some of the most expressive times of worship I’ve experienced have been when, in view of the awesomeness (is that a word?) of God, I’ve been shown immeasurable mercy. And I’ve quite literally fallen face down on the ground.
There is always a balance required.
I’m afraid it appears on this post that you are tipping the scales a bit in the wrath of God to try to counter-balance the warm fuzzies of “God is love.”
Keep dialoguing.
You’ll find these guys enjoy a healthy discussion.
Shalom
June 27th, 2008 at 9:23 am
Sam,
This was also my point in my polemic in dispute of Tom Schleuter’s polemic against neutrality of music. He said a fanfare was appropriate because it evoked images of majesty - and I think we’d all agree. But he also said swing was inappropriate because it evoked images of dance - it’s true that swing may evoke images of dance, but why is this inappropriate.
I think Tom is here guilty of the very think you warn against - focusing solely on one aspect of God.
Neil
June 27th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Perhaps one way to examine the attitude of worship would be to examine the specific times set aside by God for worship of Him - the Jewish festivals:
1) Rosh Hashanah - ‘the day of the blowing of the horns’ - Judgment Day - the beginning of the year. It is considered to be a “day of awe”, in which one prepares for God’s judgment and His coronation. It is celebrated over 2 days, though it is considered to be one “long day”
2) Yom Kippur - ‘the day of atonement’ - the most solemn of the festivals, in which fasting from food, sex and other forms of human pleasure are observed - recognizing the need for repentance and atonement from sin. It is celebrated as a single day.
3) Sukkot - ‘the festival of booths/tabernacles’ - A celebration of the fruit harvest and a celebration of the Exodus, where God provided for his people in the desert, where they lived in ‘booths’ and God ‘tabernacled’ among them. The primary attitude is celebratory and relaxation is mandatory - it is a time of music, dance and food. It is a week long.
4) Pesach - Passover - which actually combines Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Firstfruits. It is a celebration of the barley harvest, and a celebration of God’s redemption from Egypt (sin). All yeast (symbolic of sin) is removed from the community and food for the week, with a ritualistic meal (seder) observed at the beginning of the week, and festival and song (centering on the Hallel - Psalm 113-118) are foremost during the week. It is a week long.
5) Shavuot - ‘the feast of weeks’ - ‘Pentecost’ - a celebration of the wheat harvest, also a celebration of God giving the Torah on Mt. Sinai. It is a celebration of gladness for God’s provision for all of His creation. Reading from the Torah is central, as is dancing, feasting and music. It is one day long.
6) Shabbat - ‘Sabbath’ - a day of rest - it is a celebration of God’s resting on the seventh day of creation, and is celebrated each week. Work is prohibited, and God’s provision of rest is celebrated by spending time with family and community, in prayer, Torah, food and song.
So, following this example laid down by God in the Torah, the majority of the focus He asked from His people was celebration for different aspects of His provision, with time still set aside for repentance and awe.
June 27th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Yeah, what Chris said… (as usual he says it better than I could)
I guess I’m not trying to diminish God’s glory in any way, or say we shouldn’t have awe and reverence of Him. I think those things will naturally happen in any real encounter with Him.
I just think that a lot of typical Reformed conception of God seems based on the Greek notion of divinity - a far away, all-powerful being in the heavens smiting some and begrudgingly having mercy on others. I don’t think that conception of God matches the description of Yahweh - a living and active God who is intimately involved with His creation.
It is interesting to me because even though the reformers did a lot of good, they managed to strip even more of the inherent “Jewishness” of Christianity from the Church. So we’re left reading the OT through the eyes of Augustine and Aristotle rather than the eyes of a first century Jew.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:44 am
a few thoughts…
1. When you get outside of the US, you realize that other cultures worship God dramatically different than us Americans. My first trip to Africa, I fell in love with the wild drums and ongoing dancing in a grass hut. And let me tell you… those people got down! They would definately be kicked out of any American church, easily. But, their devotion in the midst of such hard times was the greatest I have ever seen!
2. Sam, I often deal with some of those questions. I like to think of my relationship with God as a father son relationship. I love my dad for all the good and loving parts of his life, and I love him for the times when he corrected me and grew me. I don’t necessarily love and honor my dad for all the spankings he gave me (and there were plenty), but for the spirit of correction. You see, even God’s wrath, anger, etc. is motivated by his love and holiness. Should we ignore those aspects? No. But, we must realize they are all from love.
3. Donald Miller did a great talk once on truth and feelings. He talked about how we love to honor God with truth (knowledge of who he is). However, there are these unexplainable feeling that should overtake us at times. He gave the great example of a couple on a date. If the man leaned over and said
“I wrote this letter on why I love you:
1. your eyes are blue
2. you have good hygiene
3. you walk
4. you have a nose
etc.”
he probably wouldn’t get too far. It’s because love, while based in truth, often goes far beyond the facts and truths of someone into an unexplainable connection. In my opinion, that is a great place to worship God from.