Lay Down Your Weapons
I couldn’t begin to count how many times it’s happened. I’ve been discussing a certain issue with someone, and eventually to prove his point, the phrase “well this is what the Bible says” comes up - usually followed by a long, poorly edited, copied and pasted passage from BibleGateway.com. In the person’s mind this passage is the end of the argument, the last hurrah, the final amen. It is the trump card of debate, and the checkmate of discussion. The howitzer of the Bible has been pointed squarely at me, and I am a casualty of theological disagreement.
I’ve often wondered where the practice of referring to the Bible as a weapon came from. I remember in Children’s Church when we have “sword drills“. The teacher would open her Bible, pick a verse at random, and the student who found the verse in the least amount of time won. Not to boast or anything, but I remember winning more than my fair share of these battles. Perhaps growing up in a pastor’s house where I was surrounded by Bibles had given me some sort of innate ability to thumb through the pages of Scripture quickly…
I also remember sitting in the audience at youth events listening to speakers tell us how to “use our Bibles to push back the forces of darkness”. I remember hearing that one way or another our public schools were being invaded by evolutionists, homosexuals, or perhaps worst of all, the secular humanists. It was our job as Christian teens to stand up against these people, and use the weapons at our disposal to do Christ’s work. After all, Satan has already taken too much ground. Generally, I would leave these events pretty hyped up, at least for two or three days. Then it seemed that fighting Satan’s minions took a back seat to math homework, English papers, or, let’s face it, doing nothing (I wasn’t that big of a nerd…).
In college, things were different, but yet they were the same. I quickly got involved with Campus Crusade for Christ, and I remember attending one of their cleverly-titled “Cross Training” events. At these events we would go through various Crusade literature (including the 4 Spiritual Laws booklet, of course), and learn how to contend for our faith and give watertight answers for the skeptics we would inevitably meet. Again, Scripture was presented as a tool at best and as a weapon at worst. It seemed that purpose of knowing Scripture verses was to blow away our ideological opponents. We were the Christian Dirty Harrys on campus, just itching to meet an atheist and have him “make our day”.
Towards the end of my college career (such an odd term, as so little of college falls into the category of work), I started thinking about how ineffective these training sessions and booklets seemed to be. I wondered why no one seemed to be interested debating with me about the existence of God, and even less about why homosexuality is wrong. Heck, it seemed most people were content to let me believe whatever I wanted to as long as I left them alone. I wondered why Christians told me that a state university would be such a hostile environment to my faith, when in reality it seemed like most professors saw faith as a good thing. I wondered what was the point of all my “weapons training”? What if in the midst of trying to become a better fighter for the faith, I had forgotten to let the Word mold me and change me? What if in trying to win arguments, I had forgotten that people really need a friend they can trust and talk to, rather than a watertight argument?
So that brings me to where I am now. I almost physically cringe when I hear Christians use the phrase “the Bible says” anymore. Just the other week I heard someone advertising a class that would teach Christians “how to use the BIble”. I am tired of using Scripture as weapon to beat people with. I am tired of making myself greater than Scripture. I believe that if you think of Scripture as a tool or weapon, it inevitable places you in a position that is greater than Scripture. The person who is holding a weapon is the one in charge of the weapon. The person who wielding a tool is directing that tool. I believe this almost a complete 180 from the way we are to approach Scripture. I believe we need to submit to it. It molds us and shapes us, and it directs us on how we are to live. When we start talking about “using” Scripture, I believe it’s a dangerous endeavor.
Now I know I might come off as cynical here, but I really am not. I do believe that everyone I encountered had the best of intentions. I think they believed they were just being faithful to the Christian faith they had receieved. I’m sure many of them would point to 2 TImothy 3:16 to justify their actions.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
After all, that verse specifically mentions Scripture in the context of training and correcting. It certainly seems that Scripture is being used as a tool in that context. However, if we take a look at that whole passage, I think the picture becomes a little different.
You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
So it seems that Paul is not just telling Timothy to continue to learn Scripture to win theological arguments and to convince pagans how wrong they were. No, Paul is telling Timothy that he needs to lean on Scripture to train him, to equip him for service. It’s not that Paul is reminding Timothy to memorize Scripture to fight back the heathen philosophies of Rome, as much as he is reminding that Scripture is his source of life. It’s the thing that keeps him going. Just as God breathed in Adam, He breathed into the Scriptures. When we read them and let them mold us, we are partaking in the life that God has for us.
So, that is why I have chosen to lay down my weapons. I have decided that I will try and let Scripture mold me before I try to make change other’s behavior. I will try to submit my own will to the Bible before I try to use it to break other’s wills. I will ask forgiveness of those who I have been casualties in the wars where Scripture has been used as weapon, and I will do my best to stand beside those on the receiving end of the blows.
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Phil,
Some good thoughts in there, for example being a friend to come along side instead of bashing just to win an argument. But I do see some throwing out the baby with the bathwater type reasoning. Paul uses many military and sports allusions. Like everything else. It’s a balance which should have agape love (including mercy) as the first rule of engagement.
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 am
Wow, good post. I’ve only started seeing things in this frame of reference recently…
We kind of touched on it at the end of the “salvation prerequisites” forum. I’m glad you posted this, thanks a lot.
Joe
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:57 am
What’s funny is that, in my experience, the more often someone argues, “Well, the bible says dot dot dot,” the less likely they are to even understand the passage/s they’re quoting.
I’ve always considered it a “tell” for “I’ve never really thought this through with my own brain.”
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 am
“the phrase “well this is what the Bible says” comes up - usually followed by a long, poorly edited copied and pasted passage from BibleGateway.com. In the person’s mind this passage is the end of the argument, the last hurrah, the final amen. It is the trump card of debate, and the checkmate of discussion. The howitzer of the Bible has been pointed squarely at me, and I am a casualty of theological disagreement.”
The amazing thing about this blog is the arrogant strawman arguments, and the over generalizations.
Whoops, that’s the odms. My bad.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:46 am
“I’ve always considered it a “tell” for “I’ve never really thought this through with my own brain.”
What about the Spirit will lead you into all Truth?
Whoops, that’s modern gnosticism. My bad.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:51 am
Well, I guess Billy Graham doesn’t have a spot on this post. He used that phrase all the time and probably led more people to Christ than any other!
Poor Billy, been doing it wrong all these years…(spit in the bucket)
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Whoops, that’s the odms. My bad.
Whoops, that’s modern gnosticism. My bad.
No worries, mistakes happen.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:57 am
jonathan,
you forget.
The ODiuM’s have excommunicated Billy Graham for going even more liberal than before.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Once again a post that doesn’t reference ODM’s and lo and behold an ODM comes in and starts swinging.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
BTW: I’ve always considered it a “tell” for “I’ve never really thought this through with my own brain.”
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
BTW: So your brain makes decisions in a a vacuum?
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Jonathan,
I haven’t listened to Billy Graham preach in a long time, so I’ll take your word for it. My bet is though that when he says the phrase, “the Bible says” it isn’t in the conext of a theological debate. I think he has earned the respect of both believers and non-believers because he is an example of someone who has molded his life to Scripture. When he says that phrase, people will listen.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
So I am going to listen to ___________ (fill in blank), instead of Scriptures when dealing with life, morality, Spiritual issues? I don’t think so.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
I have a question any of you have ever encounter a posessed ( by demons ) human?
What would you use to cast out a demon?
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
You know, when someone comes to me with an argument from Scripture my response is “Well alrighty then, let’s go to that Scripture and have a look.” I WANT my life to be in line with Scripture, so I take the comment and the teaching and like a good little Berean I go to the Scriptures and if I’m wrong I repent and try to conform my life to the Scriptures. If I think the other person has a wrong take, I let them know it, explain my reasoning and if we still disagree I move on. I have to answer to God and not them. End of story.
There is a time and place for apologetics just as there are going to be jerks in every world view. There is a lot of unnecessary angst around here sometimes.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I have seen people who I believe were possessed, although I didn’t interact with them directly. In that case, I actually do believe that believer’s have authority through Christ.
I would say that my post is talking about using the Bible as a weapon against people, not against spiritual forces and principalities. Even Paul warns in Ephesians that our battle isn’t against flesh and blood.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Phil - just from reading your posts here and there, as well as your comments on posts, you always seem to reference your personal experience growing up in a church and, now that you’re grown, being somewhat disillusioned with the ‘poor, well-meaning folk’ who were off the mark.
I would argue that in present Christianity, the majority of Christians are woefully “under-armed” to do any battle whatsoever. It is not that everyone is so diligent in their bible reading and memorization that they just can’t agree - hence the warfare. Rather, complacency and the “as long as you believe in Jesus” mindframe prevails.
“You want to live a homosexual lifestyle while still claiming Christ? No problem.”
“You want to continue in the same manner of life as you always did? No problem - Jesus paid it all. Hallelujah!”
This is what many people are taught.
In the blogosphere, you may find people “better armed” than average (or at least they think so) but that doesn’t represent the masses who simply believe tradition and hearsay more often than not, and build their life accordingly.
We are to stand on scripture, and if someone is off-base, use scripture - not as a bludgeon - but as a guide and as the ultimate authority. Of course, people don’t like to be corrected which I gather is the undertone here.
We tend to argue from positions already firmly dug in and from the standpoint of sentiment (”I just can’t believe that because [ insert sentiment here].”
I agree that scripture is to guide me FIRST, but as someone rightly said, “Salvation is one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.”
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Mmhmm, a Hoover.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Like the governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, when he decided to participate in an exorcism on a girl who had CANCER?
I’d probably call 911.
Or there’s the reasonable middle ground, where one can use all the tools as one’s disposal, including their brains, their perceptions, their life experiences, and yes, scripture, when making decisions.
This post is about when idiots think they win arguments by saying “but look, it sez raht here, see?”
Nobody’s denying the validity of using scripture as a guide.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Phil,
The problem has never been the Bible. The problem is our fallible, arrogant, foolish, sectarian interpretations of the Bible.
I am with you……..I cringe when someone wants to get in a Bible quoting contest with me. Dueling verses. Reminds me of sixth grade boys in the restroom standing away from the urinal and seeing who can hit it. All you end up with is a wet floor and a ticked off Janitor.
I really don’t care what people believe any more. I want to see how they live…….end of story.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Did we forget it is a war. That we are called to put on the armor. And what part of the armor is a sword??
Scripture Alone. It is the only weapon to decide matters of faith and pratice.
What else should trump the bible. Good exegitical reading. Letting the bible speak. A giant and active sword. Peirecing our souls. What else can peirce the soul of man like the bible??
So what should be the final trump card in a theologival debate?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
That sounds so World of Warcraft.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Kyle,
I think you’ve missed Phil’s point - He’s not suggesting anything should ‘trump’ the Bible.
Rather, he is simply suggesting that ’sword’ isn’t the only metaphor (or the dominant one) for Scripture -
Using the sword metaphor, as many use it, suggests that you need to attack someone else with scripture. Paul’s metaphor of the sword, though, is quite different:
If you will notice, it is used in defense - against schemes of the evil one, against principalities and powers and spiritual forces. What this often gets construed as, as Phil points out, is as an offensive weapon against individuals. Scripture often gets pulled into a discussion as some sort of ‘trump card’ - often completely ripped from any semblance of context and with a high degree of opinionated interpretation.
Should we be changed by Scripture and should we use it in our discussions about faith? Certainly. As with anything, though, it takes a great deal of humility to bring it to bear in such a way that is in context and allows for legitimate interpretations apart from your own.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Kyle, You forget that Phil already was waiting for your “Sword” and “Armor” defense in his second paragraph!
Phil, I am sure that Billy Graham has been in his fare share of theo debates and I have also heard people debate what he has preached even in his younger years. The only thing you cannot debate him on is the gospel which he truly preaches from scripture, but there are facets of scripture where he has been debated with.
I am a pastors kid and I have heard my share of “the bible says”, but in my age now I love to hear it! It tells me that the person, whether clear or unclear, is trying to state his case biblically! Remember, without the Bible we have no point of reference outside of our own definition of reality…which is existentialism.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
“Using the sword metaphor, as many use it, suggests that you need to attack someone else with scripture.”
We don’t have to attack with it, because it attacks all on its own. The bible says that the gospel will offend. If you quote scripture, which I agree should be done in a loving manner, it will offend and attack!
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Chris L.
I agree with most of that.
So what are the schemes of the devil?
What does the devil confort the most? The bible and God’s word. Has God said?
So while the I agree I see one of the most important parts of fighting the devil is standing for God’s truth. Not in order to win debates that is prideful and sinful. Wrong motives are always wrong. You use the sword to rebuke, reproof, correct and train. So you use it aginst both heathen and christian so that they might be reconciled to God through Christ.
Decitful are kisses of an enemy but faithful are wounds from friends. Even though sometimes the precived way people use scpirute may seems painful but hopeful it will bring about the fruit of repentance and righteaousness.
Every always agrees that there are certain central doctrinces you can not comprimse on. But then there are the seconday issues where grace and lovingkindness need to be displayed even more so with inter christian debates.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Part of the issue, Jon, is that quite often “the Bible says” is used in discussions with whom that holds as much credibility as the “Q’ran says”, “the Book of Mormon says”, “the National Enquirer says” - (and in a number of the same venues has interpretative/contextual issues, to boot…). Paul often references Scripture (though more often paraphrased than quoted) in his writings, though he frames it in the conversation with people he already knows. When we see him on Mars Hill and in other public forums, we don’t see the same methods as when he’s dealing with people who accept the Bible as Truth.
Certainly it is authoritative and the ultimate source of truth, but if you’re trying to use it as such with someone who doesn’t accept it as authoritative, then you’re not so much trying to show someone the truth as you are demonstrating your superiority…
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
But Paul’s primary advice to Timothy is not on using it against someone else, but rather in being yourself transformed by it. If you see it primarily as an offensive weapon, then you’re setting yourself up to be sanctimonious, in the process…
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Kyle said:
You use the sword to rebuke, reproof, correct and train.
Bruce says:
Swords are used to kill.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Chris
If you hold to truth and someone else doesn’t and you tell them this is the truth, than you show superiority?
Did Galileo show superiority or truth?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
So, let me get this straight - it is more important that I use Scripture to convict and convert someone else than it is if they are convicted or converted?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Well it does lay everything to bear and peirce us and kill the old man. But it brings about new life also. Metaphors are not literal.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:42 pm
yes
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
So this all boils down to the intent of the person.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Isn’t everything in the bible about the heart?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Well we are all bound by our experience to a large degree, but I do not I am disillusioned with my past, really. I have seen some people do some horrible things in Christ’s name, but I have also seen some people who have lived awesome, consistent Christian lives. To me it seems the ones that I admire most, though, have been people who have gone against the grain of the mainstream a lot of times, though.
Where I’m at now is just standing back and looking at the things that have helped me grow and the things that have been a waste of time. I don’t think Christ allows us to continue down a road unquestioning things. I think He demands the exact opposite, really.
You are correct, though, people do not like to be corrected, especially by those with whom they have no real relationship. I think that is what I see a lot of online. I see a lot of shots across the bow, but I don’t see a lot tears for our supposed enemies. It is always easier to write a post about so-and-so’s problems, but it’s a lot harder to own up to our shortcomings.
I believe Scripture can be viewed as a sword or knife in some sense, but I believe the Holy Spirit wields it. He is cutting away stuff from our lives and messing with us. I think we like to turn it towards others, but a lot of times that’s a diversion from He wants to do in us.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:47 pm
“Certainly it is authoritative and the ultimate source of truth, but if you’re trying to use it as such with someone who doesn’t accept it as authoritative, then you’re not so much trying to show someone the truth as you are demonstrating your superiority…”
Chris L, I see where you coming from, but I have to ask you this….Then what do you use? Certainly not words of men’s wisdom as Paul shot that down.
I agree that you must show you equality as a sinner, but you must also not show your superiority because we must present the word with humility. But we must always quote the word as a point of reference. That point of reference doesn’t return void. If we don’t have that point of reference we are like nutcrackers that give of sound.
Chris L, I agree we shouldn’t use it for our own spiritual pride or battering ram!
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
If your purpose is just to tell them the truth, then your purpose is superiority. If your purpose is to convince them of the truth, then you’re on the right track.
When you use methods that will convey the truth, but you ignore or downplay methods which might demonstrate or convince, then you’re motives are likely a bit out of whack.
Galileo was interested in the truth, not his own ego - he even acquiesced to the church in not ‘holding to’ heliocentricity for many years, only discussing it as a hypothetical, partially in order to convince church figures that it was about the truth and not about his own fame. He wanted the truth to be known, not to be known as the one who told it.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I know you asked Chris, but it’s my post, so I’m butting in, LOL…
I would say that as a whole the fact that we feel the need to “use” anything kind of speaks to a certain lack of trust in the Holy Spirit to do his job. There is a time and a place for apologetics, but I think the heavy lifting, as it were, is always done by the Holy Spirit. He softens hearts and draws people to God.
If we try changing other’s behavior through arguments based on logic or even on Scripture, we will end up frustrated a lot of the time.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Kyle - is your “yes” an answer to:
If so, I think both the Apostle Paul, by his example, and I would have to disagree…
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
False comparison.
Galileo proved his case.
Faith, by definition, cannot be “proven” as truth.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Evan,
I don’t think it was a false comparison - it actually was a good one - Galileo held to a scientific position that was not at odds with the Bible, but rather one that was at odds with the church’s popular interpretation of a part of the Bible. His approach was two-fold - it demonstrated that a) he was not at odds with Scripture; and b) that scientific evidence proved heliocentricity. In fact, he was so interested in the truth being known that he wanted to convince people, not just say “this is the truth and y’all are stupid…”
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Yes it is to that question.
How will poeple belive if no one is sent? What are people sent to do? Preach Christ and Him cruficied. That is all Paul wanted to preach to both christian and heathen.
If you do not convicited people by the bible and convert them with the bible, remember the sword is the Spirit of God, which is the word of God, what exactly are you convicting them of and conerting them to?
Now you can use whatever words you want to convey this message(contextaulizing) but it must be this message from the bible. Christ and His death.
Agree or disagree?
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
And does it require quoting directly from Scripture to ‘preach Christ and Him crucified’, or does it require communicating this message in a way it is likely to be heard (perhaps even using art, music, film, etc. - or our own lives - in demonstrating that truth)?
I agree that it requires contextualization - but that’s a dirty word in a whole lot of Christian circles these days (which I suspect is where Phil’s coming from)…
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Phil said:
I have to agree with you wholeheartedly here. The web makes it so easy to do this, sadly so.
My view is that the primary responsibility of any Christian is to weigh himself according to the word of God - that includes motives. But it’s not a zero-sum, either/or game. It is also to shape our thinking (renewing our mind) so that we see more clearly.
When we see someone stumbling headlong in error, we should correct them - in meekness, considering ourselves also capable of falling.
In an age of religious deception, which ours is, where the devil actually preaches (a distorted) Christ and gospel, we cannot be naive but, as the apostles warned (especially Peter) we are remain steadfast in the faith - knowing what we believe and standing firmly on it.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
BTT
Faith is not blind, God is not irrational. I belive what has happend and can prove what has happened.
Erveryone has the same evidence. Some look at it and become Christian because the evidence is overwhelming like Lee Strobul. Others look at the same evdence and become apostate and leave the faith the Bart Erman.
So the evidence for faith is really. What would be the only difference? Faith imparted by the Spirit. It is not that one argument trumps another. I always wonder how anyone can listen to Dawkins or the like, they are just plain stupid. Then my pride puffs up and says”OOO looked me I am so smart and have so much knowledge” The the Spirit cuts me with His sword and reminds me that no carnal man can understand the things of the spirit. So the only reason I follow the evidence to Christ and God is because the Spirit opened my mind and heart. Then comes the repantance because it is all by Grace and nothing that I have done.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Chris
I know it is dirty that is why I used it. I would say some methods would not convey the message of Christ and I would also say that there needs to be references to the bible. Like in Athens Paul doesn’t quote, the had no OT backgroud, rather he give’s the overall flow. God created, and will judge, but Christ! Christ and Him killed must be the central message other wise it is no gospel at all. If you want to use the “Good Guy” cartoon tracks from Ray Comfort, a movie, a CD, ect…It does not matter as long as it is the goespel.
How would you use art?? I would think there would have to be some sort of words because there is no art that in modern times that is viewed however the looker wants to. But anything, alomst anything, can be used as long as it proclaims the gospel.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Chris L, The word of God as superior, then, yes. Us as born again humans, no.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Yeah, but Chris, this is the important part:
If he didn’t have the science, he would be just some guy running around with his interpretation of Scripture, which, as I said, is mostly unprovable by definition.
And I would also suggest that this has bearing for how Christians should use the “sword” (screwed up metaphor if there ever was one) of scripture with the general public.
This is why “it’s in the bible” is not only NOT an argument winner, but is utterly laughable to nonbelievers.
The audience said “prove it.”
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Hmmmmm.
Brains (intellect) - Self centered, self loving.
Perceptions - subjective, foolable, trickable.
Experiences - subjective.
Scripture - Objective, True, eternal, unchanging, God breathed.
Yep, still goin’ with Scripture for anything pertaining to life and godliness.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
?
Break, how loving and tolerant of you.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I thought you would at least say a Dyson since you are so intellectual and all!
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I never said that, but no, you can’t “prove it.”
That said, I don’t agree with all of Richard Dawkins’ conclusions, but science is not stupid, and it’s not your enemy.
Richard Dawkins is merely one of the extreme right’s boogeymen du jour.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:22 pm
How people live is an indication of what they truly believe.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Please, I don’t vacuum.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Yes you can prove it. Pretty easy. But then the choice is belief of that proof.
Science is not our emeny but Dawkins certainly is. Science only points towards God and His glory.
The bible is the most accurate document ever in human history. The bible and outside source say Jesus died and rose again. Now seriously the evidence for the bible is overwhelimg but it is disgarded. Why? Is it because someone is smart or has difference evidence. Again it is only Grace.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Ouch, see, I think that’s a really low view of humanity, and by extension of God.
God gave us our brains; He wants us to think. Intellect isn’t self-loving. Knowing how to analyze information isn’t a fault.
God gave us our perceptions; He wouldn’t have made us so different if we didn’t each have something unique to share and, thus, teach.
Our experiences are also “teachable moments,” so they’re at least helpful in discerning reality.
But your description of Scripture — “Objective, True, eternal, unchanging, God breathed” –
None of this is provable.
None of it.
Therefore, back to the original topic, considering the fact that all of us will approach scripture differently — no human has ever or will ever get it all right — using the Bible as something to hide behind or as some sort of weapon is never effective in dealing with real live human beings.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
It has work for the churhc for the last 2000 years.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
No, you can’t, Kyle.
Not by any scientific standards. Oh, certain historical things, sure…but I’m being generous in guessing you could prove maybe 25% of the Bible’s events. Beyond that, you make a GIANT leap of faith. Undertand, I’m not knocking the leap of faith.
But I am asking Christians to get a little perspective here.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
See? Boogeyman.
It’s always a boogeyman with the Religious Right.
Oh, they do not! Outside sources don’t confirm the resurrection.
According to whom?
Yes, well, brainwashing and mind control are powerful things.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
It certainly can be. (lebotomies to let out specious vapors anyone? the “cure” for homosexuality?) Science and science theories are not value neutral and any one who thinks so has not taken an honest look at the politics of “science” in academia. It is far from objective and rife with agendas, egos and outright falsifications. Also scientific “facts” in many genres take on a complete rewrite every few years or so. I don’t know how many times I’ve read “the science books will have to be re-written” because of this or that discovery. I literally kept a newspaper clipping file everytime I ran across that phrase for a while but it became so frequent over the years it wasn’t even novel.
I would say that mathematics is about the only completely reliable, unchanging science genre out there. The rest (astronmy, biology, psychology, etc.) is certainly useful and interesting, but hardly absolute and unchanging. We laugh at what was held to be scientific “fact” just a few decades ago and this shifting sand is to be given any predominance over Scripture in things pertaining to the human condition? No sir.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
BTT
The evidence. Over 5000 NT documents dating back to about 150 ad it’s accuracy is proved 99.95% the same. The second in line in Illiad was written around 900 bc first copy around 400 bc accuracy is only 95%.
So the facts support the bible. Dawkin’s is a self proclaimed emeny of the faith and it would be stupid to think otherwise.
Yes I am the religious right. Even though I hate Bush, MCCain. I am a crazy Paulite!
Yes they do. The early church fathers, and then of cousrse the unrealiable portion of Josephus.
So you compare the Bible and preaching to brain washing.
One question and please do not take offense. Do you consider yourself to be a good person??
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Islam is a religion of love. See it says right here in the Q’uran.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Sorry, too many false dichotomies to process as once.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Chris. Islam is a religion of love. George Bush said so.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
It also tells us to kill anyone that say God is three??? And it tells you where you can hit and how hard you can hit your wife. Man I have that loving felling, ooo thtt loving feeling. I really think that it is not a religion of peace. They are to take over the world and enforce Sirah law and the rest of us would live under dimitude.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Let’s no forget garbage in garbage out. No information is pure, all information has limits.
I am not anti-intellectual, Christian’s should not check their brains at the door, but man’s wisdom is not God’s wisdom and there is a way that seems right to a man but which in the end leads to death. (I read that somewhere).
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:59 pm
John,
Brain (mind)=heart in the Bible. As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.
John you said “How people live is an indication of what they truly believe.”
Gandhi lived better than any Christian of recent history yet he denied the central tenets of the Christian faith. His non-Christian Christianity was far superior to our professed Christianity.
Kyle said “The bible is the most accurate document ever in human history. The bible and outside source say Jesus died and rose again. Now seriously the evidence for the bible is overwhelimg but it is disgarded. Why? Is it because someone is smart or has difference evidence. Again it is only Grace.”
5000 plus manuscripts and they all differ at some point. That’s pretty inaccurate. 2000 years of Church history and we still fight about what the Bible says or doesn’t say. That’s pretty inaccurate.
The Bible is a faith book. That’s good enough for me.
You try and apply scientific accuracy to the Bible and you lose every time. It was never meant to be used in that way.
The original manuscripts no longer exist. All we have are copies or copies of copies. We have translations of copies of copies of copies. Perfect? No. Without error? No. Does it accomplish what God wishes it to? Yes.
Bruce
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Check out the upcoming debate between Erhman and James White on this very issue. Should be good. We know for certain what the original said. But anywho good day go check out aomin.org for textual variant stuff. Very intresting. Know what you believe and why.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Kyle and John,
Come on guys. At least be honest. Instead of bashing the Muslim faith, reckon with your religion. Christianity has spilt enough blood over its history, yes? SO if blood spilling determines whether or not a religion is peaceful……..the Muslims have nothing over on us.
Any and all killing in the name of a god is evil.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Oh great, we’re bashing religions we don’t understand now.
Color me completely unsurprised.
Go Amurka.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Kyle said We know for certain what the original said.
We can’t because they don’t exist. If they do please let me know where. Or better yet ask your all-knowing guru James White where they are.
Any argument from the originals is specious because they do not exist. That is why the Bible is a faith book.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:08 pm
And there in lies my point Kyle.
David Koresh believed the bible said _______
Jim Jones believed the bible said _________
Fred Phelps believes the bible says ________
Jerry Falwell believed the bible said _______
I could go on all day.
Each and every one of those people used the bible to defend an untenable position.
Many, many people read the bible and see God as wrathful. Many others read the bible and see God as loving. But everyone of them uses it to defend a position.
Thus the importance of showing/living the truth of the bible as opposed to using it’s verses as a hammer.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Yes, but the point is that they keep searching, keep learning.
This, to me, is just a fundamental misunderstanding of science. Science acknowledges when it’s found to be wrong.
Fundamentalists cling to something that can’t be proven, and use that unprovable foundation to assert that they have the “truth.”
Kyle, that’s NOT evidence that the spiritual things in the Bible are true. I don’t know how you possibly think it is.
You have just explained everything.
Are you going to give me some kind of BS Kirk Cameron test? The only reason you always end up in hell on those tests is that they start taking away plausible multiple choices about three questions in.
*chuckle*
In the Bible, which, again, is unprovable, at least in its spiritual aspects. This is why it’s not an argument winner!
Amen to that. Heaven is most likely full of non Christians who were more Christian than the Christians of their day.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Excuse me, Where did I bash Islam is this thread? But I would like to see you live out your chosen lifestyle in an Islamic majority country BTT.
I’ve read the Koran (all of it) and have made a decent inquiry into its tenants. I understand there are nominals (like my good and friendly Islamic neighbor), moderates, and fanatics just like in most religions. What don’t I understand?
Oh BTW, newsflash ** Muslim = False Religion. Koran = False Gospel. Well I guess I did bash it just now, didn’t mean to offend anyone.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
You’ve entirely missed the point. You are basing your world view on something that is in large part in constant flux.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I would like to see Fundamentalist Christians grow up and accept the reality that the only place the “chosen lifestyle” exists is in so-called “Christian” propaganda, but that would require them to stop viewing “Christian” propaganda as trustworthy. It would require an acceptance of fact-based reality.
But we all don’t get what we want, do we?
However, the fact that Islam has issues doesn’t give Christians the right to throw stones. A fundie is a fundie is a fundie.
According to you.
Something else you have no empirical proof of.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:48 pm
So, because science changes and *boogeyman word coming* EVOLVES, then we shouldn’t rely on it?
Riiiiight. Let’s take the ancient magic book because people told us to, instead!
You’re forcing me to argue more as a full-on devil’s advocate than I usually have to, considering the fact that I’m a believer. But I’m a reality-based believer…so I will argue for reality.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
This whole argument is based on work’s righteousness which is the antithesis of the gospel message but which obviouisly fits your world view.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
“Heaven is most likely full of non Christians who were more Christian than the Christians of their day.”
That is works and if true it renders Jesus and His cross as irrelevant. It is not true but it is rapidly becoming seen as true for many reasons. If there is no source to extrapolate spiritual truth than each person’s opinion becomes his own truth.
So if the Scriptures are not authoritative, than conversations like this about religion are just glorified versions of the View.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
According to your interpretation, which is fallible.
Some of us would argue that your interpretation of Christianity doesn’t jive with Jesus’s entire life up to Calvary.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Haha, I’m about to cast the Elizabeth Hasselbeck role…
Duck.
Duck.
Duck…
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Well, I think Jesus had something to say about it, something about being the only way to the Father and all, but as that is recorded in unprovable Scriptures we will just have to agree to disagree.
You said you are a believer but if you don’t believe what your own self-professed God says what kind of belief is that?
And why not believe those particular scriptures but believe others? What gives you the moral right or even logical right to pick and choose which scriptures to believe and which not to believe? Jesus left no personal writings. EVERYTHING, you know about Him is third party hearsay. Why believe any of it much less some it and not all of it? Where’s the Jesus Seminar when you need them?
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
And what interpretation would that be? If Scripture we have is reliable/trustworthy you have three choices BTT: Lord, Lier or Lunatic.
If our Scriptures are not trustworthy then what’s the point we are to be pitied above all men?
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I believe the Dali Lama is God. Prove me wrong without using Scripture of any kind.
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Rick,
Easy.
Some day the Dali Lama will die. gods don’t die.
That was easy.
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:15 pm
“Some day the Dali Lama will die.”
Prove it. And the man called Jesus died as well.
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Don’t need to prove it. All men die. My subjective experience tells me it is so.
You need a faith book to get Jesus out of the grave.
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:42 pm
“My subjective experience tells me it is so.”
Bingo. I guess you’ve never heard of Enoch or Elijah? Your subjectivism is untrustworthy.
June 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Ah Rick you violated your own rule. You went to the Bible. Can’t do that. So my statement All men die stands. In the non Bible world there is no Elijah or Enoch.
My subjectivism is absolute……on this issue. Cemeteries and obituaries pages prove me right every day.
I don’t need the Bible to know the Dali Lama is not god. You DO need the Bible to know that Jesus is.
There is NO proof of Jesus’ as god apart from the Bible.
I accept what the Bible says about Jesus and I accept what my subjective experience tells me about he Dali Lama.
June 23rd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
“There is NO proof of Jesus’ as god apart from the Bible. ”
My point.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Unless scriptures aren’t trustworthy.
But what you just said is an OLD Sunday School line, and it’s tired. Just so you know.
Um, actually you totally put words in my mouth. I said I was a believer. I didn’t say I believe the canonized Christian scriptures were breathed by God. That’s yet another unprovable. I lean toward “probably not.” Doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God. I just happen to think that part is dogma.
EXCEPT that your interpretation of that passage isn’t the only one out there. I read that a bit differently.
THANK YOU. Somebody is making sense here.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm
BTT, if you say you are a believer while on a Christian web site then pardon me for infering you were a self proclaimed believer in Christ.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
God’s don’t die?
Hello many religions have Gods who die. Egpyt, Greece, Christianity. Even one’s who resurrect. That’s a very inaccurate statement.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
But the Dali Lama’s soul does not die. It is reborn in an endless cycle. I was an Egyptian slave in a past life and Shirley Temple in my most recent life. “Animal Crackers in my Soup” still brings a tear.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Hey, that was one of the better catch phrases I came up with in my prior life as C.S. Lewis. But thanks for sharing. Prove it otherwise.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Yes, well, my religious views are complex and ever-changing. Sometimes it just depends on what time of the day it is…and I’m a believer in Christ…I’m just not sure I believe all the things about him you do.
As to the Lord, Liar, Lunatic thing, that’s only true (sort of) if you A. accept the Gospels as inerrant (which they aren’t), B. accept a certain interpretation of Jesus’s teachings.
But there really are other ways to look at it. Really.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Yay, making fun of people’s religious beliefs again. Do Jews next!
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Just for the sake of comparison…and I’m not arguing against Christian belief, but it’s so offensive when over-privileged Christians in this country make fun of other peoples’ belief systems, yet fail to see that they have their own strange beliefs that other people can and do make fun of just as easily…
But for the sake of comparison, this has been going around the internet for awhile, and I think it should discourage Christians from throwing stones at other peoples’ belief systems:
“Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree…yeah, makes perfect sense.”
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:25 pm
“Scripture - Objective, True, eternal, unchanging, God breathed.”
I believe all this except objective. TRUTH is neither objective nor subjective, rather it is fact.
“Um, actually you totally put words in my mouth. I said I was a believer. I didn’t say I believe the canonized Christian scriptures were breathed by God. That’s yet another unprovable. I lean toward “probably not.” Doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God. I just happen to think that part is dogma.”
If you don’t believe the canonized scriptures were breathed by God, lets say, and you say you are a believer, then where is your point of reference(truth) that you point to. Let me make clear what I’m trying to say…So, if scripture is wrong or has that possibility then you are just playing a game of “I’m in, I’m out?” Can I assume that you are a universalist?
And one more question…Where does faith come in to play? And if the scriptures aren’t perfect, which wouldn’t allow them to be true, then saved by grace through FAITH could be false. Then your point would be subjective….Then, actually, every word that anybody says here has no weight outside of their own reality!
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Truth does not require perfection. If it does we are in big trouble,
Truth, as far as Scripture is concerned, only requires that it accomplishes that which God wishes it to.
God allowed the Scripture to be in the form it is, errors, warts and all, yet it is sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness. An infallible God using fallible means, wow!
It is all about faith. I don’t need a perfect book to have faith in a perfect God.
The problem here is that some of you can’t comprehend that some of us don’t need a perfect, dial a verse book to believe in God. All the words in the world aren’t going to convince you otherwise. Your religion seems to go out the window as soon as a thought of fallibility creeps in.
That leaves you in a real pickle. No original manuscripts. No perfect book. (unless you believe God magically preserved the exact words in the translations we have and if so please tell me WHICH translation) Where do I find this perfect book? Where can I see it, read it?
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
“Truth does not require perfection”
Concerning God, it does; Especially if you are talking about the payment for sin!
“That leaves you in a real pickle. No original manuscripts. No perfect book. (unless you believe God magically preserved the exact words in the translations we have and if so please tell me WHICH translation) Where do I find this perfect book? Where can I see it, read it?”
You obviously haven’t studied the dead sea scrolls! They observed these scrolls and compared them with the NIV of today and determined the accuracy to be 99.99999999…..%
Bruce are you a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? No pun intended!
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:28 pm
“Your religion seems to go out the window as soon as a thought of fallibility creeps in”
There cannot be fallibility concerning the sacrifice for sin!
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:30 pm
I guess it comes down to the simple belief of whether God can communicate effectively, truthfully, reliably, and with a consistent message to humanity…or we’re on our own and we’d better hope He’s not counting our idiocy against us.
That’s it…yup. Convo over.
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Of course I am Rick. I just don’t believe much in your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You need a perfect book to believe. I don’t. You need absolutes in all things spiritual. I don’t.
I can live with the uncertainty. Evidently you can’t.
You can’t imagine Jesus followers who don’t buy your dogma. I can.
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:46 pm
As if you two were believing in two different Gods?
Come on. I said convo over. Not that I expected it to be…but…I thought it might work lol
We should be wondering why we’re going to continue this downward spiral in to insults, anger, and paining each other…over what?
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Joe C,
No I don’t think we are believing in two different Gods. But………I am not at all certain that Rick thinks the same. I have lots of room in my God house. Others do not have much room, for those who “think” or “believe” differently than them. Can one believe that Bible is errant and be a Christian? I mean, with full, complete knowledge believe it to be errant?
I don’t believe I have resorted to anger or insult, yet.
I am trying to defend those of us who seem to get steamrolled every time we “think” or “speak” outside the accepted box.
The accepted box just doesn’t fit real well any more. I don’t believe I ever asked anyone the proverbial “are you a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” I’ll leave it to God to do the question asking.
Bruce