salvation prerequisites
That if you:
A. confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
B. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved.
-The Scriptures
Rick Warren’s Gospel presentation from PDL:
First believe God loved you and made you for His purposes. Believe that God has chosen to have a relationship with Jesus, who died on the cross for you. Believe that no matter what you’ve done, God wants to forgive you. Receive Jesus into your life as your lord and savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. So I invite you to bow your heads and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity. “Jesus, I believe in You, and I receive You.”
John MacArthur’s required additions to the gospel presentation for salvation
* Repentance
* Know who the family of God is
* A sense of eternal judgment
* A discussion on hell
* Self-denial
* Laying down the law of God against which the sinner is broken
* A sense of guilt in the person
* Sense of condemnation in the person
* A fear of eternal torment in the person
* An understanding of God’s wrath
* The sinner should be crushed under the weight of his violation of the law of God
One might be guilty of laying it on a little light, the other just might be guilty of turning the already narrow road into a tiny beaten path. Let the crusades continue.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I’m crushing your head!
June 19th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Interesting.
All those Johnny john john j-mac requirements could actually be appropriate and helpful–depending on the situation.
But if they’re required…sounds like works to me.
So much for the RCC being the Whore of Babylon. Or maybe she just has a slutty sister?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:56 am
I just finished listening to that. MacArthur is a legalist because he equates repentance as a turning from sin rather than a turning from unbelief. All those thing he mentioned are a hubristic demonstartion of making the gospel complex to a lost sinner.
I did not experience any of those things listed when my life was transformed by Christ in 1975. It sound like you need one year of Bible school to get saved.
And on top of it all, the elect will automatically know those things and the non-elect can never know those things so in essence his speech is a doctrinal soliloquy.
Calvinism strikes again.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Althought they might deny it, many in the Reformed camp have a vaugely defined event horizon at which point only after such proponderance of the above referenced points have been made in a gospel presentation can it be seen as a “legitimate” presentation. How this jives with the concepts of Election and Irresistable Grace is beyond me however. It borders on ex operato to me.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Phil,
I always thought those skits were the most inane the Kids in the Hall did (well no there was the chicken girl/boy) but I have found myself doing the exact same thing on occasions.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Too bad the gospel writers didn’t include Jesus’ 10-point presentation and systematic theology discussion with the thief on the cross…
June 19th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Do not let anyone move from the SIMPLICITY THAT IS IN CHRIST!
Praise His name, a child can understand His gospel!!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
We really always need to think “Gospel” in the context of 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. It’s obvious Pastor MacAuthur believes we must add more burdens on people in order to enter in to the Kingdom, instead of teaching them as time goes on and they grow.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Rick, amen brother. You got it. You made my day with your quotation.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Rick: After reading your posts today, I was reminded of the following: When you play in the mud with white gloves on…the mud never gets “glovey.”
I guess I over-expected that you wouldn’t get “muddy” hanging around here. It makes me sad.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
“I guess I over-expected that you wouldn’t get “muddy” hanging around here. It makes me sad.”
Does that translate - “I disagree”?
PS - I’ve been muddy long before I began blogging!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I’d rather be a muddy sinner than a legalist.
Sorry…wrong thread.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
You imply that we’re muddier than thou, Keith…
June 19th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
There is definitely a simplicity of the gospel which should always be adhered to and I agree that the process of salvation simply starts with accepting Jesus Christ.
However, it doesn’t end there. A person can receive Christ and later on still be lost.
Therefore it is important not to not de-emphasize the importance of discipleship ONCE a person has accepted Christ, or else the person’s religion is in vain. In effect, you are shaking off a heavy yolk/tattered garment for a light yolk/new garment.
Discipleship is important in this process. Some of you will say this is works, but please reference these scriptures for me:
Jesus: “IF you continue in my words, THEN are you my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.”
Jesus: “STRIVE to enter in through the strait gate…”
Paul: “…If by ANY MEANS I might ATTAIN unto the resurrection of the dead… But this one thing I do: forgetting those things which are behind me, I PRESS TOWARDS the mark…”
June 19th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Paul,
It’s funny that you write that, as it could be word-for-word what my Catholic friends tell me when I suggest that their church is about salvation by works…
June 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
To suggest that one would receive Christ and still be lost denies the power of the resurrection and the Holy Spirit.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Chris L: what specifically did I reference that would be anti-biblical?
Chris: to say that a person cannot be lost after receiving Christ is error and is probably at root of your misunderstanding.
I suggest you read Revelation 2 & 3 as well as 1 Cor 10.
Maybe you can explain the few scriptures I quoted above? To say it is impossible for someone to backslide is absolutely ridiculous…
June 19th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Wouldn’t it be “glovier than thou”?
June 19th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
“However, it doesn’t end there. A person can receive Christ and later on still be lost.”
I agree, Paul. But it isn’t because of isn, it is unbelief (apsotasy). Now a life of careless sin can lead to apostasy, but we didn’t stop sinning to get in and we are not kicked out because of sin.
I believe Hebrews openly reveals the possibility of apostasy.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Rick:
“But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death. Do not be misled, my beloved brethren.”
This is the progressive downward spiral of someone who backslides (no need for apostacy alone for someone to backslide).
The Bible is very clear: “The wages of sin is death…” In Romans 6, Paul is admonishing the church to yield themselves to righteousness rather than sin.
Christ is very plain: “IF you continue in my words (my teachings) THEN are you my disciples indeed (in other words - made evident by the life you now live) AND (as a result of your lifestyle) you shall know the truth and this same truth will set you free.”
If you don’t continue in His teachings? Tell me what the results are then.
Where do you get the notion that a person cannot be lost and backslide by engaging in sin, and ultimately be lost?
Hebrews 12: “Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God…”
June 19th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
I agree Paul. Sin may lead you to apostasy, but it is unbelief and counting the blood as an unholy thing that defines apostasy.
So we agree - avoid sin by His power.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Rick - I was really waiting for a response from the other gents on this post because they seem to be under the illusion that “repentance” is works and “striving” to live for God is works - and all that drivel.
Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and yet DO NOT DO the things that I teach?”
Again, “He that hears these sayings of mine and DOES THEM is like a man which BUILT his house upon a rock.”
There are things we must do in response to Jesus becoming the Lord of our lives.
Rebellion and sin can lead to being lost. Apostacy is more a religious sympton, but outright sin (engaging in and yielding yourself to evil) can lead you into death (really and truly there is no physical hell).
Don’t fall victim to the philosophizing that takes place of this blog and others. It is error (but sounds nice).
June 19th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I don’t think I’ve read that claim by anyone here. Perhaps you’re thinking of some other blog.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Nothing - that was my point…
June 19th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“Don’t fall victim to the philosophizing that takes place of this blog and others. It is error (but sounds nice).”
I almost got sucked in about 13 minutes ago, but I was able to just get muddy as noticed by Keith.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Paul,
I will say that I think repentance is a symptom of salvation, not a pre-cursor to it. So I think that a lot of people tend to put the cart before the horse, so to speak.
I do think it is possible for people to walk away from Christ. I do not like the phrase “lose their salvation” at all, as I don’t think salvation is something we own as much as it’s something we take part in.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Chris L: Honestly, I think I’m a little slow today… let me see if I understand. You try to correct your Catholic friends by saying their church is about salvation by works (ie: I’m guessing adhering to sacraments and all the other stuff Catholics believe)
BUT
You see what I say as correct or do you see what I’m saying as some sort of works-based salvation in line with Catholicism
THEREFORE
rendering me in error?
Just trying to understand what your point is here.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Phil - salvation is the process. It begins with Christ starting a work in your life that leads to repentance. The process of salvation is taking a man who is wrecked by sin and making him whole over time.
This process can be aborted just as it was God’s desire to save Israel from Egypt, but because of their rebellion and sin, many died in the wilderness (hence, both Paul’s and Jude’s using this reference as a warning to us not to draw back).
This is why Jesus says, “He that ENDURES to the end, the same shall be saved.”
On the day of Pentecost: “…And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.”
The false gospel that you simply receive Jesus and “abra-cadabra” - all is well, is false indeed. There is a life to be lived in adherence to Him. We will slip and fall every day, which is why can ask for forgiveness daily. But if we continue in a sinful lifestyle - watch out.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Paul - that is works salvation. Faith plus nothing. ALL our works AFTER salvation are only acceptable by God’s GRACE.
God keeps us.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Rick - then please explain these scriptures
John 8:31-32
Luke 13:24
Rev 22:12
… for starters
June 19th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I do not consider those Scriptures as doctrinally basic and foundational as it pertains to teaching salvation.
Paul first, then support. And when I say Paul I mean the other one!
June 19th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Yes.
I see what you wrote as correct.
No - (realizing that this is part of a couple of other conversations going on) - pointing out that the suggestion “Catholics believe in salvation by works” is a strawman representation of what a good number of Catholics believe…
June 19th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Paul,
I don’t think anyone is saying that repentance and a change of behavior shouldn’t be expected, but I think that there is a real danger if we start saying who is saved and who is not. I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where we are supposed to make that call.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
So disciple mean being saved? How much continuing do we need to do to become really saved?
June 19th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Phil - but who is saying that we are to determine “saying who is saved and who is not”? That was not even in my mind as I wrote the above comments.
I think you do your argument a disservice when you say: “I don’t think anyone is saying that repentance and a change of behavior shouldn’t be expected…”
A complete turnaround a reorientation of your life IS expected (it’s not a “nice to have”). If a person wilfully continues in a sinful lifestyle after being confronted by Christ, then that person either met a “false christ” (the everything-goes christ) or never understood what he is being called to.
This all ties back to a larger argument: what the church is preaching today is such a comfortable gospel of convenience that many people are not rooted and established in the faith. Have they accepted Jesus? Yes. But in many cases, they have yet to yield to him one iota of their lives. He is not their Lord because they do not do the things He says.
We are in an age of “decision card” conversions and “raise your hand if you accepted the Lord today” services. It is so light and chaffy. The fault lies in the presentation of the gospel.
For the purpose of this post and the video referred to, John MacArthur’s representation is truer to form than Rick Warren’s, certainly (though I honestly do not listen/read to either of them). And Nathan’s poor attempt at quoting a single scripture out of context is not responsible.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Explanation: Jesus will give rewards based what people have done.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Neil - see comment #28 for explanation to your question.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Good works and a changed life substantiate regeneration. They do not cause it, or help it, or even keep it. No works of man are redemptive in any way.
Signed - the
SopranosReformers.June 19th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
“There are things we must do in response to Jesus becoming the Lord of our lives.”
From a Catholic viewpoint this is true, but it can be misleading. There are things “WE MUST DO”, but if Jesus is Lord of our lives we are Christians who are “IN CHRIST”. It is not us doing works, but Christ doing the works. We (who are in Christ) can not do “good works” without first receiving the grace to do so, and WE don’t receive the credit in doing so. But we do have free willl and the freedom to reject grace.
Contrary to popular opinion that’s not a system of works righteousness; but Christ righteousness.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” - Jesus (John 5:24).
No talk of discipleship - though I’m sure it was assumed.
No talk of obedience though I sure it is expected.
When he talked about eternal life in the simplest of terms, it’s about believing and receiving. The verb tenses are very very clear.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Paul, I agree… the whole repeat after me formula is a product of modernity and I wish those who oppose postmodernity would oppose this as strongly. On the other hand, I think you may blurring the lines between salvation and sanctification as well.
While I think being born again may be more progressive than punctiliar, it’s still not an issue of doing the right things long enough… if one is born-again one cannot be unborn.
Neil
June 19th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I can get drunk, I can do drugs, I can commit adultery, and I can be violent and still be saved. But if I do those things without any remorse I may not be saved. The man who was committing a sin that even the heathen did not do was saved.
God know those that are His. What about a saved person who strays from God and starts sinning with abandonment? God’s correction, because He loves him.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Neil,
I disagree about the simplest of terms. I think the verb “believing” is the most confusing and misunderstood word in the bible.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
“if one is born-again one cannot be unborn.”
Neil - if you read 1 Cor 11 and the book of Jude, both men are making a clear point. Israel was freed from Egypt (born again) BUT because of their rebellion, sin and hardness of heart they fell short of obtaining the prize.
Both men are using this example as a warning to believers lest any of us “fail the grace of God”, as Paul puts it.
All I’m arguing is that salvation is progressive, hence Christ’s encouragement that we must “ENDURE to the end” (don’t fall back, don’t return to your old lifestyle but “PRESS towards the mark of the high calling…”).
When it is all said and done, as Christ told us, we are simply servants that have done what was expected of us to do. The glory is His!
June 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
MacArthur left out “no baptism…”
June 19th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I will definitely agree with you on this, Paul. No one should use God’s grace as an excuse for uncleanness. We should press, and when we fall and we all do, we need God’s grace to get back up again. I would love you to e-mail me a couple of your messages.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Rick - he was saved why? Because he repented of what he was doing.
When the prodigal son “came to himself” and returned to His father (repented) he was saved!
When Manesseh, languishing in a prison in Babylon, came to himself and repented he was miraculously saved (an example of God’s grace in the OT that perhaps even surpasses Paul’s conversion when you consider what Manasseh did).
When Zaccheus repented, then Jesus declared, “Today is salvation come to this house.”
“He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8)
Wow! When I think of the goodness of God - it is amazing, staggering!
June 19th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
OK, but they also did not return to Egypt either… how far do we want to push an analogy in determining our soteriology?
I agree salvation is more progressive than our 20th century Gospel made it out to be… but I’m equally uncomfortable with a requirement of endurance as well.
It’s almost as if you are saying we receive it by grace, but keep it by works…
June 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
But how do we know he remained saved, how do we know he endured and pressed on…
June 19th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Even though I believe in personal apostasy, here is my dilemma. If God would take a backslidden Christian home early, then why would he not do that before someone committed apostasy?
That has always remained unreconciled in my mind.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Rick - I am simply an elder in a church and don’t have my messages recorded. However, a few of my pastor’s messages are available online. I’ll send you a link to those if you like…
June 19th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
The use of narratives and stories to prove doctrine is dangerously malleable and unreliable.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I think we sometimes misinterpret the word repent. Rick has a very good explanation on his blog. I’m writing from my mobile which doesn’t support html, so Rick will have to give you the link.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
This is the link Gene is referring to. The word repentance is so misunderstood.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Neil said: “OK, but they also did not return to Egypt either… how far do we want to push an analogy in determining our soteriology?”
This is not merely an analogy. The type of Israel coming out of Egypt, wandering the wilderness for 40 yrs and THEN finally entering the promised land is a parallel type of the church.
The lesson is this: we can fall short of the prize of the high calling unless we, like Paul, press. It’s not a casual life of “let me just relax - Jesus paid it all.”
He overcame. Now as Jesus states 7 times (Revelation 2 & 3): “He that overcomes will I grant…” It is for us to overcome as well (Pilgrim’s Progress or Hind’s Feet in High Places bear this out wonderfully). We don’t walk alone but Christ is beside us all the way - until the end of the age, just as He was the Rock that following Israel in the wilderness, and it was the grace of God that - despite their rebellion - shaded them from the desert son in the day and warmed them with the pillar of fire at night.
Neil said: “It’s almost as if you are saying we receive it by grace, but keep it by works…”
No I’m not saying this. Jesus explains this perfectly in his parable of the Master and Servant - Luke 17:7-10:
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
June 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
So Paul you are an Arminain? I saw your picture on the blog site, you look so young. How old are you?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Rick - I’m not Arminian (never heard of the term until I saw you use it:)) Neither am I a Calvanist. At our church, we stay away from other the “theological theorizing” and attempt to derive our doctrine from the Bible (of course, no one’s perfect).
I’m 32 years old.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
I crown you “Arminain”.
Wear it proudly, my brother!
June 19th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Lol Rick
June 19th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I think if you’re taking Scripture as a whole, if you’re required to keep your salvation, even if you’re enabled to do this by God’s Grace, then at the end of your life you could conceivably boast about how you did well and ‘endured enough’.
It doesn’t jive guys, it just doesn’t.
How can we explain this away? We need to start with these foundational statements, and work from there when looking at the verses you brought up Paul.
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
June 19th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
“If they shall fall away” they shall not have been in His Hand in the first place.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Joe C,
“We need to start with these foundational statements, and work from there when looking at the verses you brought up ”
Where does the bible say we need to do that?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
“Where does the bible say we need to do that?”
Does your Bible have a glossary?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Joe - so what you are endorsing is the concept that once someone is saved, they are locked and cannot, even with their “best efforts”, lose this salvation?
Those are beautiful scriptures indeed, and I don’t see any contradiction at all. In Ephesians 2, Paul is simply reminding us of the goodness of God and His grace (not our goodness) that was responsible for initiating this great work of salvation.
Good scripture Rick. Also, in the same book, the author of Hebrews says:
10:26: “For if we go on sinning deliberately AFTER receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”
10:35: “Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.”
10:39: “But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.”
12:15: “See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God…”
(Wish I knew how to do block quoting:))
June 19th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I grew up in an environement where it seemed like losing your salvation was almost as easy as catching a cold, and I think that sort of thinking really creates an unhealthy perfectionism and it’s a breeding ground for self-righteousness. I feel like I have recovered from a lot of that now, and to a big extent how I view salvation is a lot different.
I don’t think of salvation as an event or even a state, really. I view it more as a partnership between God and man. So we can all be at different places in this partnership, and I think that the goal is intimacy with God. So, I think people can walk away from it, but God will chase them to their grave if He has to.
I think that idea of someone getting into heaven “by the skin of their teeth” would have been quite odd to the original audience of Scripture. I think that the way we talk of it would be foreign. We talk of “being saved” as if were like registering to be a Republican or Democrat. I think salvation is more than a state change, it’s a total reorientation of our being. It’s dying to our own will and getting in tune with what God’s doing.
By the way, Paul, I surprised you’re 32. I always assumed you were older. I’m 32 as well.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Paul - highlight the sentence and click on B-quote. So simple even a caveman can do it!
June 19th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Rick, what do you always say about sin gardening our hearts?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Joe C: You imply that we’re muddier than thou, Keith… = arrogantly willing to assume more than was implied. I was talking to Rick- one individual, hence the salutation at the beginning of my post, “Rick.” If you included yourself , e.g. “we” (for whatever reason), you shouldn’t have.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Hmm…the Bible doesn’t say to do that. I just figured how can I lose my salvation if I can’t earn it?
I’m sorry but I don’t believe God would ever let me walk so far away from Him as to be lost (again). How, if Jesus at the Cross paid for my sins, and set me free…can that be taken away? How can something that is paid for, how can something that is ransomed, be un paid for, or unransomed? And how, if I have to work at keeping my salvation, would I not be able to boast?
lol funny thing is, I’ve been at both ends of the spectrum (you can lose it, you can’t lose it), and…I really don’t know what I believe about it now. There are a lot of things that don’t make sense on both sides of the spectrum.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Sorry hardening. Lol
June 19th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Keith…I was trying to be funny…come on. Besides, if you’re going to comment on a public forum…it’s open season. But really, it looks like what you said implied that CRN.info is muddy, and if Rick comments here he’ll get muddy. I was trying to be funny about it with a response (hence the 16th century english), because I figured you were trying to be funny.
Sorry to uh…make you call me arrogant..? I didn’t mean to be.
Peace man peace
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
ER,
Gardening sort of makes sense, too.
I know some have quite an impressive sin garden, lol.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Keith and I are friends. He is a committed brother who happens to be a Calvinist. I do not take his dig personally. My Calvinist views are my own and not meant at any one person.
Keith’s blog is great too. Sorry Keith, close your eyes next time you see Calvinist in my writings!
June 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
“an impressive sin garden”
Great, Phil. Do any fertilizing?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Thanks Rick !
Phil - valid points, especially the one about unhealthy perfectionism and the possibility of this creating self-righteousness. But the truth becomes evident in the scriptures. We cannot allow the self-righteousness/ arrogance of some to cloud what is true and right.
Regarding the “skin of their teeth” Peter sheds some light on the teachings of the apostles when he says (1 Peter 4)
He seems to be saying, “If the righteous barely make it into the kingdom by the skin of their teeth…” no?
Glad to see another yung’un out here as well, Phil.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Well Rick, I thought he was joking, so I was trying to joke back…you know “holier than thou” I thought a ‘muddy’ take on that might be funny. I’m just kinda confused as to since when did Keith not like me enough to snap at me? lol…no harm though, I’m sure it’s just a misunderstanding.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Sin supplies its own fertilisation. . .
June 19th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
BTW - these are the type of Christian conversations that can be edifying for all of us even when coming from different perspectives. Thanks you guys, I love discussing Scripture and not cussing!
June 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
I was just thinking the same thing Rick. I love the different respectives.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Joe C: I’m sorry but I don’t believe God would ever let me walk so far away from Him as to be lost (again).
I would recommend prayerfully considering the above scriptures that were outlined (there were dozens) that clearly point to the possibility of us drawing back.
I don’t believe this should cause us to live in fear (I certainly don’t), but rather caution us about examining ourselves, the things we partake in, to take salvation more seriously and prayerfully, asking God to not allow our eyes to grow dim and to open us up to truth when it is presented…
June 19th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Paul, listen…
I’m open to being wrong, especially since I really don’t take a stance because while knowing all the same verses you bring up, I just can’t figure it out..for a couple reasons I listed above……
But…I’m still pretty lost on this one…what exactly are you trying to say lol?
June 19th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Besides, don’t think my lack of a stance means I think I can just go around sinning…I belive God really instills a huge hate for sin in us when He saves us…
June 19th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I got it Joe, no offense from me. I understand what Keith meant. I am still an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.
I actually love these guys even when I strongly disagree on some things. I get my feelings hurt some time as well. If Ken allowed comments I would comment there. Ken and I occasionally exchange e-mails. I have a difficult time holding on to a grudge, that is why I so vehemently object to personal attacks on anyone.
BTW Joe - you are a jerk. (Did I say that???) Take that as correction not as an attack!
Be safe, Joe, all of us pray for you and appreciate an American soldier whi is a soldier of the cross!
June 19th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I agree with both Joe C and Paul C. (Sound like some kind of band) We should be diligent but can be assured that God will chase after us if we stray from His grace. Jesus’ parable of the 99 sheep left alone for the 1 comes to mind.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
=( I don’t want to be a jerk…lol
Thanks for your support Rick, as always, I appreciate it.
I have tried talking with Ken on other website comment forums…but it doesn’t really go too well. =/ (I get called names…) I mean, I forgive him, and I’d like to talk to him more, and I’m sure I’ve offended him too so I’m sorry for that but anyways…..
Bottom line is I hope to be as mature as you some day Rick, and just let things go.
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Joe C: I’m not trying to be snarky or speak loftily here at all. But I think that if we remove preconceptions (ie: you mentioned coming at this issue from both sides) and simply look at what’s written in the context it was being communicated, that it does become clear.
And by no means do I think you’re advocating for a sinful lifestyle.
All I’m trying to say is that we need to guard our salvation as the gift that it is, trust in God as we stumble along, give Him all the credit if anything good is accomplished through us and in us… We don’t need to be fearful BUT we need to be cognizant of the fact that we can fall short of the glorious price awaiting us at the return of Christ and the resurrection.
BTW, I think this was the entire point of Hebrews 11: faith to endure (not so much miracles, but faith that believes God despite what outward circumstances prescribe).
June 19th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
I just know that God disciplines those He loves, and if He put me in His hand, He can keep me there. The work of salvation He started in me, He will finish. If I stray, He’ll smack me back to Him.
Definitely though…Grace is NOT a license to sin! I think we ALL agree on this point! =)
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
God instilling a huge hate for sin in us.
What a wonderful thought! Any scriptures that can back that thought?
June 19th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
“Bottom line is I hope to be as mature as you some day Rick”
You may want to run that by my wife first, she might have a different perspective!!
June 19th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Gene - I think the presence of the Holy Spirit should give us a hate for sin, most especially our own. That should also always send us back to the cross where sin is forgiven.
I agree, Joe, grace is no license to sin. In 33 years of knowing and walking with Christ, there has never been one day that I haven’t needed forgiveness through His wonderful grace. That I can testify for sure.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Well consider Eugene…
We have the mind of Christ, per 1 Cor. 2, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and since God gives us His mind, and God hates sin, we’d end up being like God. I don’t think everyone is at the same place, but certainly if we’re sinning, God’s going to remind us by Spirit, and we’ll eventually turn from that sin. Though I’m sure in this life some sins just never go away. That’s what I meant.
Paul for instance talks about how he hates doing what he knows he shouldn’t do, but does it anyways. Christians are like cats….and we don’t love water (sin). You know?
I don’t have a lot of time to type right now, so I’m trying to get my point across quickly…sorry for the rush.
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Why do my articles always cause the biggest arguments
June 19th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
June 19th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Rick,
On one of the other treads you said something along the line of sin hardening our hearts to the point that we stop believing and that it is our unbelief that causes us to fall away. Can you expound upon that please?
June 19th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Thanks Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
nathan - this thread had much good exchanges in it. No one was called an apostate yet. And much Scripture was shared with respect and fondness for each other.
Wow, Christians acting like Christians. Brilliant!
June 19th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Gene - The writer of Hebrews says in chapter 3 that if your heart is hardened you cannot hear God’s voice, and ultimately the children of Israel could not enter in because of unbelief. Why did they not believe? Their hearts were hardened
Look at Heb.3:12-13 and the writer (Paul?) warns against an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING from the living God. How was their heart hardened?
Verse 13 - …lest any of you be hardned through the DECEITFULNESS OF SIN.
Sin is a deceiver and hardens the heart against the voice of the Spirit. Eventually that grows a heart of unbelief which is spiritual death. Very serious.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Mind if I call you rabbi Rick?
June 19th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Rabbit Rick?
June 19th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Ai toggie!
June 19th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Runawaaaay runawaaaay!
June 19th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Well, for one thing, I don’t think we can assume that everytime the word “saved” is used, it’s referring to an eternal salvation that we are referring to. In that passage, Peter is talking of the coming judgement, i.e., the end of all things. I think a good case can be made that’s he warning people that they may barely escape judgement that’s coming, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem, and they shouldn’t be surprised if they have to endure suffering.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
I believe that is a Hebrewism like cut off your hand. It is overstated to bring the point home.
June 19th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Its after 12 here. . . Good night.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:42 am
The problem with narrative theology is how ya apply it. Above is one way, another would be to say that the wandering in the wilderness THEN entering the promised land is a metaphor for life THEN entering rest.
At no time did those who were wandering stop being part of the covenant community…
I agree that we need to press on, yet, Jesus did pay for it all and we can relax, in the sense we need not worry or strive to make sure we are saved.
We press on and strive for the prize because we are saved, not to be, or guarantee our salvation…
BTW I don’t think the “prize” we may fall short of is salvation…
June 20th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Paul,
Maybe I’m missing your point, but I don’t see the Gospel having a “once you believe you must also do this and that for the rest of your life or you’re not gonna make it ” condition.
I completely understand the issues of perseverance and how modernity has reduced the Gospel to a formula… yet there is a security in the finished work of Christ.
Neil
June 20th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Neil:
2 Pet 1:
“For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.“
June 20th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Paul,
I take that passage to be saying that we need to be reminding ourselves of our calling by living up to it. It’s not that we are in danger of losing our salvation through sin, but rather we need to constantly remind ourselves of what we are to live like.
Like I said, I do agree that apostacy is possible, but I guess I kind of disagree with how it happens. I don’t think that it happens by someone falling into sin. I actually have heard some pastors say that we need to specifically ask for forgiveness everyday just in case we die that evening. Like if I got angry and swore and then died, God would send me to hell for it. To me, that is very dangerous thinking.
I think apostacy is a more willful turning away from Christ. Instead walking with Him, it’s a willful turn away from Him. Even then I think Christ doesn’t just sit there and let people go. I think that it’s a very big thing for someone to walk away from Christ.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Paul C.,
I am in general agreement with Phil, in that passage Peter is not warning people that they could lose their salvation… any more than Paul meant people would wind up in Hell if they lost their reward(s).
Neil
June 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am
In fact, Paul makes it clear that it is our faith that saves us, Peter is here admonishing the believer about the things that should be added to faith - but not for the purpose of salvation, but so that the believer would be effective and fruitful.
Notice ineffectiveness and unfruitfulness are what he is addressing .
June 20th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Neil - the phrase “lose their salvation” misrepresents what I believe is apostasy. One cannot “lose” their salvation, but they can deny the faith and reject Christ, from which there is no repentance.
But the exhortation is the same, confess and reject sin and pursue Christ.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:21 am
.
Rick, what about August 11, 1987?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Especially August 11, 1987.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am
I guess I take the “nothing can separate” passages too far. Or is the issue one of application of salvation in the first place.
Either way, I believe press on is an admonition in response to salvation, not prerequisite for it.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
“Rick, what about August 11, 1987?”
No one was supposed to know about that. I walked in sinless perfection for 42 seconds before mugging a man in Manhattan.
Thanks for bringing that up…
June 20th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
My understanding that being born again (i.e. regenerated) is an actual, not just a symbolic, event. At the time of conversion the Holy Spirit does literally and physically/spiritually come to take up residence in the Believer. The Believer’s spirit is joined metaphysically with God’s. Further, although this event required the free will offering of himself from the human agent (sorry Calvin), once the committment was made something infinitely greater than myself (i.e., God) took over when God joined His Spirit to mine. Therefore I believe this EVENT (which by Scripture is all of God) is irreversable.
I, can by a choice of my free will, get on a plane and by a choice of will step out of the air plane. But then something entirely greater than myself — gravity — takes over. No matter how much I subsequently protest or have a change of mind, I cannot will my self out of the hands of gravity and back into the airplane (the circumstances and condition I was in prior to stepping out of the plane). Though free will is a factor, it is not the deciding or ultimate factor in play. Simularly, I cannot will myself out of the Hand of God. My free will played a part, but the Regeneration (which is all by God’s doing) was an infinately greater force than my will which cannot be reversed by a subsequent “decision”. It is all greater than me.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Neil, what happens if one has faith, but then remains “unfruitful” and “ineffective”. How many parables and instances does Jesus condemn unfruitfulness (the fig tree that did not bear and then shrivelled up, the servant who hid his talent, the branch of the vine that does not bear fruit, etc).
Look at the MAIN POINT of the scripture I quoted above - Peter’s summary:
QUESTION: can you fall?
QUESTION: what does “make your calling an election sure” mean?
June 20th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
ANSWER: Yes
ANSWER: Live up to the standard on your namesake
June 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Then you are a Christian who is unfruitful and ineffective.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
No, it means that you can fall (as you agreed), and it is our responsibility to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling.” The 2 verses are saying the same thing.
And carry on your merry way? I guess Jesus was just kidding when the fig tree shrivelled up in front of the disciples’ faces, when he mentioned the unprofitable steward who was cast out - as I remember it - bound hand and foot into outer darkness or the unfruitful branch that he cut off from the vine… He was over-reacting to make a point for good theater.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Paul,
I would note that most of Jesus’ teaching is centered on temporal life and consequences, and that we have a habit of conflating all of his teachings regarding salvation as referring to the afterlife. All salvation is by grace - but is salvation being acted out if there are no works which demonstrate faith?
Then one is not living in the Kingdom, and it is questionable that he has faith in the first place.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I would say, from the context of the entire passage, that it is referring to the temporal, not the eternal.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
“QUESTION: what does “make your calling and election sure” mean?”
Examine your life to see if it substantiates your profession of faith. Upon the moment of saving faith, the Holy Spirit seals the believer.
How many sins does it take to make a person lost? One. How many sins would it take to make a person lost again? One. Except for the grace of God which much more abounds. So there is no sinning your way out since that would only take one.
But if a professing believer rejects that grace by rejecting Christ and His blood, well that is a very serious matter including the possibility of apostasy.
So there is security in the BELIEVER, but to him who no longer believes, he is in a very dangerous situation. Not because of his sin, but because of his unbelief which now leaves his sin exposed and unforgiven.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I think there will definitely be people who believe but end up being lost in the final analysis. The people of Matthew 7 who said, “Lord, Lord…” are completely shocked at the Lord’s response - not because they didn’t believe, but because they did. The key that Jesus emphasized was they “that do the will of my Father…”
This led to the admonition of where we build our house: rock or sand.
Or you may also consider the 10 virgins (Matt 25): all believers to some degree. Not all were saved.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Rick - I agree we can have confidence in God to save us. I’m not fretful or warying myself with fear, but all of the scriptures I have mentioned in this thread caution me and serve to draw me closer to God (I hope, at least to some extent).
Living for God is a very practical thing. I think we can get carried away with all the theological aspects. God wants us to walk in His ways and serve Him with gladness, serve others, walk with conviction and determination in the midst of a perverse world - we are to shine as lights.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I agree believers can fall.
I also believe it is quite obvious from Scripture that salvation is 1) based on faith and 2) not dependent on my works to be m