A fly in the soup
Verum Serum has a great article posted a few days ago about the decline of the SBC, however, its as suited to the entire church in America as it is to that particular denomination.
Check out the whole thing, but here’s some quotes:
Of course I don’t believe the real problem is the culture or the effort level. I believe it’s the menu. Not the main dish, but all the side items we’ve saddled it with. Even today, surprisingly few people are put off by Jesus and his message. Richard Dawkins, in his jeremiad against faith titled The God Delusion, largely ignores Jesus, as if he were peripheral to Christianity. This seemed very strange to me, but the more I thought about it I began to feel he was, inadvertently, on to something.
It’s the twenty-first century, and with the exception of flying cars, our world has exceeed what many of our own grandfathers could have imagined. So when a large portion of the populace balks at young-earth creationism and the imminent rapture, well, perhaps we should stop being surprised. When did these things get added to the menu in the first place? Perhaps this is one case where we need to stop offering the combo. Stop upselling the Gospel into the “Biggie Size” monstrosity many evangelical churches are offering. This is what’s so ironic about the current declines at the conservative SBC. Some genuine “fundamentalism” would be a vast improvement.
And the clincher:
Unfortunately for the SBC, what looks like standing strong for the faith among those dutifully manning the parapets looks a lot like ignorance abetted by arrogance to much of the rest of the world. The result is, well…the figures speak for themselves. Clearly a moment of reflection is in order. I suppose it could yet occur to the someone in charge that the problem and it’s solution aren’t methodological after all. Perhaps this is what you get when you try to purge all diversity of thought from the body. Is it really helping the church when accomplished people like Howard Van Till and, more recently, Peter Enns, are hounded out of work because they don’t toe a particular theological line? Didn’t we just have a movie about this sort of thing called Expelled?
One high-profile member of my old church said of those of us who’d left that God was “spitting out the salt.” I’ve often thought this little theological malapropism had a lot of truth to it. And what’s true on the small scale is, I suspect, true of the SBC as a whole. If the numbers are any indication, the denomination appears to have lost a lot of flavor in recent years. The SBC response seems to be to crank up the effort. But to return to my already over-extended menu metaphor, I think the solution to this problem sounds a lot less like gearing up for another round of ideological purging and more like…
Waiter, there’s a fly in my soup!
June 19th, 2008 at 9:48 am
“crank up the effort”…
typical protestant response.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Here’s a simpler way of looking at it:
There are two kinds of religious people in the world:
1. One clings to faith, yet also has both feet planted firmly in reality.
2. The other actively denies reality when it doesn’t fit within the narrow confines of what they think their faith is/should be.
It’s not just Christianity, either, but there are an awful lot of #2’s out there, and there’s a reason the rational world considers them fools.
And yes, the writer is very much onto something when pointing out that people don’t have a problem with the message of Jesus, quite honestly. Rabid fundamentalists tend to hide behind the verses where Jesus says people will be hated for his sake, when truthfully, peoples’ reasons for despising them have less than nothing to do with Jesus.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:27 am
“crank up the effort”…
typical protestant response.
Yeah, good thing the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t have a sacramental system or people like Rob Bell don’t initmate “real” Christians need to work more e.g. on solving the AIDS crisis.
What is it Chris Lyons always says to me? O yeah, plank/speck.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:37 am
ummmm….
did I say any of that?
I wasn’t thinking it either….
hmmmm…
thanks, anyway.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:40 am
–Even today, surprisingly few people are put off by Jesus and his message.–
I wonder how many of them really know Jesus and his message.
–It’s the twenty-first century, and with the exception of flying cars, our world has exceeed what many of our own grandfathers could have imagined.–
Yeah, but exceeded in what ways? The tech may be better, but what about the people? How many of our grandfathers thought they would see the day men could legally marry each other in this country?
–So when a large portion of the populace balks at young-earth creationism and the imminent rapture, well, perhaps we should stop being surprised.–
We shouldn’t be. But that doesn’t mean should change the message, either.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:42 am
The message was already changed into YEC and Left Behindism.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:45 am
And what message is that? I’d like to hear what you think His message was. Hopefully we agree.
I would contend that men are JUST as bad now as then, we’re just not keeping secrets as well anymore in this instant information age. People go through the same sins and problems now as they always have. Don’t think we’re special. In a lot of ways, the Romans of Jesus time were FAAAAAR more depraved (by human standards) than America is now, even with ‘teh gay marriage oooo nOOO0z! itz effecting my livez!!’. (it’s not. shhh it’s ok.)
Joe
June 19th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Ken is their any gray in your world? Or is it all black and white with really straight narrow lines?
June 19th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
If you think Luther or Calvin got rid of the sacramental system, than you really don’t know a lot about the Reformation. At best they slightly ammended it for the better.
They still supported a system that was extremely top heavy (i.e., only ordained ministers could administer sacraments) and they really only used the “priesthood of the believer” as a little more than a slogan.
I’m grateful for the Reformation, but to worship it as the pinnacle of Christianity is idolatry.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
nc,
“did I say any of that?
I wasn’t thinking it either….”
Welcome to the “ODM” club, neither are they saying or thinking what is so often attributed to them. Happens, huh.
Chris,
“Ken is their any gray in your world?” Thanks for your *ahem* concern; just as much as Revelation 3:16 allows dawg.
Phil,
Yeah, that’s it; I’m just not as informed as you. Silly me.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Comment 5 correlates with option 2 in Comment 2.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
But Joe, the Chicken Little Christian worldview doesn’t survive unless people are absolutely hysterically convinced that things are getting worse and worse and worse…
June 19th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
–The message was already changed into YEC and Left Behindism.–
Really??? What part of the Genesis account and being caught together with the Lord in the air don’t you find in the Bible?
Rather, the message has been changed to “Genesis is myth” and “predictive prophecy has already been fulfilled”.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
–I would contend that men are JUST as bad now as then, we’re just not keeping secrets as well anymore in this instant information age. People go through the same sins and problems now as they always have. Don’t think we’re special. In a lot of ways, the Romans of Jesus time were FAAAAAR more depraved (by human standards) than America is now–
I’ll wait for you to tell Verum Serum they’r wrong about how much we have exceeded what our grandfathers thought.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Young Earth Creationism has been disproven by science and archaeology and, haha, recorded history.
Also, the rapture was created in the 19th century.
Escapism is a mental condition, btw.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
hmmmm….
grandfathers vs. the Romans.
Seems like recent history ain’t a match.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
“Also, the rapture was created in the 19th century.”
It was recognized Scripturally in the 19th century. God told Daniel that many things would not be understood until the generations about which they apply would see them.
Who did or did not believe things is irrelevant. Anti-slavery was “created” just recently as well.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Jazz..
Let Verum Serum see what I’ve written. That’s fine. I don’t read their website so I don’t feel I need to go there and comment; I was… ahem, responding to you, not them. You implied that it was better in our grandfathers’ days rather than now, morally speaking. This just isn’t so my friend.
Jay Oh Eee
June 19th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
In my grandfather’s day they had Apartheid and justified it with the Bible. A woman could be beaten by her husband and it was ok. Communism kept the gospel from millions of people.
Their days are only better in nostalgia not in reality.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
In Adam’s day 1/4 of the entire population was murdered.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Population in Adam’s day - Adam, Eve, Cain, Able
June 19th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
WHAT?
That’s not even biblical…
“…I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. But the Lord said to him ‘Not so…’”
Gen 4 :14-15
The Lord, significantly, did NOT say “NOT SO, for I don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s just the four of you down there!”
There had to be some kind of parable to provide a starting point for their subjugation of women. Ta-da, Adam & Eve.
June 19th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
No census takers back then. Although a census taker once tried to test me…
June 20th, 2008 at 7:03 am
–There had to be some kind of parable to provide a starting point for their subjugation of women. Ta-da, Adam & Eve.–
Good to see your take on the Creation account. I wonder what you do the rest of the Bible.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Well if we do take the account of the creation as totally literal we do have a problem explaining who the other people where that the “anyone” refers to in Gen 4:14. And who did Cain and Seth marry? Their sisters?
June 20th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Gen.2:4 - These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the DAY that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Day = period of time.
BTW - even if it was a literal 24 hour day, it would be 24 hours and 1.01388888 seconds. Leap year people!
June 20th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Thank you for the perspective you always bring oh great rabbi.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:41 am
–Well if we do take the account of the creation as totally literal we do have a problem explaining who the other people where that the “anyone” refers to in Gen 4:14. And who did Cain and Seth marry? Their sisters?–
My point was to the idea that the Genesis creation account was made “provide a starting point for their subjugation of women”. Whether you take it literally or not, I hope such a spin on it would be unacceptable to you.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:44 am
–You implied that it was better in our grandfathers’ days rather than now, morally speaking.–
And VS said that these days have exceed anything our grandfathers dreamed of, which is a statement that I think is as questionable as any idealization of the past.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Even if we can somehow convince skeptics that the earth was created in 6 literal days, what good does it do? Does it get them closer to surrendering their lives to Christ? I guess I don’t see that it’s a hill we need to die on. A person can have a high view a Scripture and not be a young earther.
As far as the whole rapture thing goes, I think that a lot of people seem to think that questioning that particular view of eschatology automatically means you’re a complete preterist. I’ve actually not many people of whom that could be said. I think that there is actually quite a lot of evidence that the historic position is more in line with an amillenial view where Christ’s return is expected, but all the nonsense about a present-day Anti-Christ and the Middle East being tied to Revalation is moot.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Jazz - I reject the term “subjugation”. I would embrace the fact that God created men and women equal but different.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Oops! Sorry jazz… Misunderstood you.
Such a spin unacceptable to me? Well some people do use the idea that because the Creation account indicates that Eve was made after Adam and from his rib that all woman should be subject to men and from there on justify the suppresion of women. But I do not want to go down that line. Genesis was not written to tell us how we should treat women. It is a wonderful poem that tells us God is the creator of the world, the author of Salvation and that all humans are created in His image.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:56 am
And after all the facts, all the fossils, all the theories, all the paleantology, all the astronomy, and all the yada yada yada, Phil provides the core truth that makes all the rest irrelevant.
Thank you, Phil. Only a mind as simple as yours could have seen that!
June 20th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Rick,
Did you just call Phil dumb???
June 20th, 2008 at 8:04 am
ER,
Hey, Rick just calls ‘em as he sees ‘em…lol.
June 20th, 2008 at 8:07 am
I’m glad I’m 2 far 2B C’n…
June 20th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Can we ask to see “reuns” like the creation in heaven. That would be cool! I sure hope so (except maynot, if they start showing certain scenes from my life).
June 20th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Evan, Jesus cleared up the man/woman thing pretty well. In Christ, all are equal.
DINOSAURS WERE ON THE ARK!!! I SEEEEN IT!
In a movie….
-.-;;
June 20th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Different???? Dang! did I miss something?
June 20th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Mmhmm, I know, it was so cute when they landed on Mt. Ararat (even though they’ve never found a boat there) and all the dinos large and small ran off of the ark and down the mountain, doing somersaults as they went, and completely surprised to find that all that rain turned them into horses…
Yes, but before that…
and after that…
it’s been pretty much subjugate, subjugate, subjugate…
June 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
ONLY die-hard young-earth Creationists who refuse to acknowledge reality would explain it that way.
It’s kinda sick, too. I’ve been thinking about this lately…how sick is it that we have a prevailing theology that convinces lots of people to automatically assume that anyone who wants to change the world for the better might be the bogeyman, I mean antichrist?
June 20th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
“how sick is it that we have a prevailing theology that convinces lots of people to automatically assume that anyone who wants to change the world for the better might be the bogeyman, I mean antichrist?”
Don’t worry, Evan, people aren’t looking for him and when he does come they won’t recognize him either. Your “prevailing theory” is vastly overstated, and even most who espouse that theory are spiritually ambivalent.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
You’re probably right about that.
Perhaps it’s a southern thing…the whole Rapture obsession…
June 20th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Pff, they’ve found lots of boats. You just need to…infer…
June 20th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
mmhmm.