Todd Bentley & The Lakeland Revival
Posted by Chris L on Jun 17th, 2008
2008
Jun 17
We’ve had a number of questions about why we’ve not addressed the ODM response to Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Revival. The answer is pretty simple - because the ODM’s, in general (when they aren’t lumping the ECM, Granger Community Church, Rick Warren or their other favorite whipping-boys in with Bently & Co.) have it right - the guy’s a huckster and the ‘revival’ is downright wacky.
While we’re at it - just in case anyone asks:
- Fred Phelps is a hate-monger who does a disservice to modern Christianity
- The Church of Jesus Christ & the Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) is not a Christian denomination
- The Unification Church is not a Christian denomination
- The Universalist Unitarian church is not a Christian denomination
- The health & wealth gospel is a lie and is antithetical to the Kingdom of God
- The sky is blue
- Water is wet
- Most politicians lie to get votes
I hope this clears up where we stand on the issue of the circus in Lakeland.
June 17th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Have to admit - classic post!
June 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I love the graphic used, which is a derivative work from Office Space, if I’m not mistaken.
June 17th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
You have conveniently left out the Unibomber. I smell compromise!
June 17th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Also I object to your sweeping generalization about Phelps. If you can’t refute him Biblically then close your mouth!
June 17th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
At least the guy beating the horse is wearing proper church attire. Perhaps he’s preaching.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I was laughing so loud I woke my wife. Now I’ll have to go.
Good night.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Rick,
He’s actually yelling at the **dead** horse, “repent, repent, believe, believe”. And if the horse is elect God will regenerate him and the horse will repent and believe.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
John this is better,
Is ok horse God loves you even if you are **dead** he is not angry at you. You are saved anyway so it doesn’t matter. I love you and I won’t eat you. But if you don’t repent I just might have a steak tonight.
Sorry too.
June 17th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
speaking of Phelps, did anyone see Bill Keller of Live Prayer’s response to the Phelps family:
http://liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=3357
it is a must read IMO.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
OK - I’m reporting live from the revival. Todd’s angel friend Emma has introduced me to some of her angel friends. I’ve met Sid, Eddie, and Little Buddy.
I’ll get back to you later - I’m in the gold teeth line.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Have to agree with you on this one!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Thanks for the article J
Joe
June 17th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I’m writing this day down…I absolutely agree with everything you said in this post! I feel the love.
Tim: Whatever the graphic is–don’t forget the cover sheet on your TPS reports.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Keith I’ve got 8 different bosses. Eight, Keith. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That’s my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Tim: I know exactly what you mean! BTW, you don’t have enough “flair.”
June 18th, 2008 at 1:14 am
I believe it is like the Toronto blessing, it will come and it will go… if it of God it will bear fruit and if not it will not…
So far Toronto has not… and some are even repenting for being part of it. i suspect that this will also happen at Lakeland.
iggy
June 18th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Isn’t this exactly what the ODM’s do, make a judgement on something because it doesn’t fit their preferred culture or understanding of scripture?
There are certainly some odd things going on, and I’m quite certain some of it will not be of God, but that shouldn’t mean the whole revival is written off. Look at Acts 10 if you want weirdness, Peter is in a trance, Cornelius has a conversation with an angel and later Peter’s sermon is interrupted by the gentiles breaking out into tongues.
Does that sound like the norm for any of us? I know it doesn’t for me, but this was one of the defining moments of the early church. Lets not write things off because they make us uncomfortable.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:11 am
“shalla lalla ding ding” …
As I have watched the videos on this I just do not see that as a “tongue”…. yes something is happening, but I think it wise not to assume it of God until one sees its fruit.
I do not see how it is edifying that one get on all fours and bark as a dog as in the case of Toronto (boy what a blessing) Yet I know of friends that were caught off guard when God “tickled” them… which did edify them and allow them to loosen up and enjoy what He was doing.
It is not writing off to use a time to discern if something is of God or not. Some fall for “showy” some do not… My wife was saved through a “showy” guy that we both thought was also a huckster, yet the fruit of salvation was real in her life… was he… we both shake our heads and laugh as we do not know.
God can use anyone or thing to lead someone to Him… He is God after all… but just because someone shouts “walla walla ding ding” in a some kind of frenzy… does nto mean God is giving that man a gift.
iggy
June 18th, 2008 at 7:23 am
ianmcn - You make an excellent point. Everything - EVERYTHING - is subjective. People speak with a subjectivity and people hear and process with subjectivity. So if everything has a subjective ingredient, how do we arrive at objective truth?
My thoughts:
* Try and be aware and resist your own subjectivity which will at least harness some of it
* Take everyone’s teachings with that in mind. Reject doctrinal heros.
* Take into account the consensus of church history
* Pray and fast - seriously
* Study the Scriptures with a painful humility
* We cannot build theology on the Biblical narratives which compounds subjectivity
* Read what was preached in the great revivals realizing that still doesn’t amount to ek cathedra
* At some point you must by faith allow the Spirit to lead
* You must believe that there is absolute truth
The last sentence in ianmcn’s comment is part of a problem. If the narratives are allowed to stand as substantiation for present teachings than there is no way to arrive at objective truth and there is no accountability as it pertains to what is of God and what is not. So a person can say because God made Abraham ric He wants everyone wealthy; or because Peter saw a vision I can say I saw one also; or because Jesus used spittle to heal I can kick a woman in the face because I say God directed me to.
If indeed there is no standard or Biblical template that can distinguish even the most absurd claims, then relax, anything goes.
In the end, all of us will give an account for our lives and teachings. The judgment will be personal and based upon our subjective walk with Christ. From my own subjective vantage point, today’s church is in as much of a mess as in any time in history which, according to my subjective eschatology, substantiates that eschatology.
So if my eschatology is incorrect, I have subjectively constructed a prophetic view that not only gives me a false hope, it also incorporates the negative aspects of modern evangelicalism into that same hope.
See, subjectivity - I LOVE IT!
June 18th, 2008 at 7:26 am
If God could speak through an donkey…
June 18th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Hi Iggy
I agree that we have to discern these things, my concern is that we don’t “discern” with our minds, which are easily offended by the supernatural. God is inherently supernatural, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise if he manifests himself in supernatural ways.
I agree on the dog barking and so forth, but unfortunately times like the Toronto blessing end up becoming more known for their extremities than their fruit. I would argue that there was some genuine fruit from the toronto blessing before it descended into madness.
Believe me, I’m certainly not one of these “hang your brain up at the door” charismatics, but I also believe that we can restrict our view of God far too much into the natural realm. It is right ultimately to judge something by its fruit, but if that’s the only way we judge something we would miss out on it all together, even if we later judged it to have been from God. Also, what ministry bears only good fruit? Like you mention, your wife is clearly good fruit - but it sounds like there was also plenty of bad too.
What got me with the post above is that it had switched into black and white mode - basically suggesting the whole Todd Bentley thing was bad. This is exactly the conclusions ODM’s come up with when a ministry makes them feel uncomfortable or challenges their understanding of scripture. I’m not trying to say that we should all move immediately to Florida and start dancing the macarena, but neither should we write it off in its entirety
June 18th, 2008 at 7:29 am
He didn’t speak through the horse, for it was beaten to death…
June 18th, 2008 at 8:40 am
ian,
I would say I agree with you to a large extent. I do think we have to be careful about saying that God will never do anything weird or something the goes against our expectations. It seems that even within the bounds of Scripture, there is room for supernatural stuff.
Coming from a Pentecostal background, the danger I see is when people seek these experiences above other, more foundational things. I was actually at a few of the “revival” services in Pensacola around ten years ago, and I think there was definitely a mix of good and bad. The thing that is sad now, is that that church has basically been divided up almost to the point that nothing remains. I guess my natural question is if that is the long-term fruit of a revival, why is that something we should seek?
I know a lot of people who come to these are just looking for any sign of life in a church, so I don’t necessarily blame them. I just would hope that people aren’t too badly hurt in its wake.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:07 am
ianmcn,
Nathan said, under “shooting the bird,” regarding the Lakeland Revival:
Nathan’s thinking reflects the thinking of many, that is, that if an actual miracle is performed it must be God. Consider this: Mark 13: 22 (look it up in context) “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect — if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.” (NIV)
I think there are some other verses along this line as well. I don’t have time to look them up right now. False prophets do have power. All that is supernatural is not from God.
Look up some of the men connected with this revival, and their histories, including Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner. I believe all these men were previously “Kansas City Prophets.”
Listen to Todd Bentley’s message. It’s primarily about what one can get - healing, financial freedom, the “anointing.” Even the reference I heard him make to sin was made so that one could be free of it in order to get healing.
Consider the huge amount of money that is probably made through these revivals. Where is it going? Don’t know, just think it’s something to check out.
Where is the Word of God in the revivals?
Yes there were weird things in Acts. But don’t make the mistake of assuming that weird plus maybe miracles plus perhaps even actual miracles equals the power of God.
Also, don’t assume that every “healing” or “resurrection” is actually that. I’m amazed at how, during the meetings, people seem to assume the healings are all genuine when there is (as far as I’ve seen) nothing that can actually be seen.
I have read a book and heard that there are also stories written by people who have had hands layed on them to receive “anointing” who suffer with “voices” afterwards. Voices that they think are “God” but which end up manifesting themselves as not being of God. Be very careful.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:09 am
youre welcome JoeC
June 18th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
amy, makes a great point and I am upset that more christians arent speaking out against folks like Bentley.
see, this is where Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt and Tony Jones and Mark Scandrette
could get a lot of respect amongest christians (even by those who arent fans of the Emergent Church movement)
and diminish some of the ODM’s power in the Discernment movement of the Christian Faith,
by publically speaking out against false teachers like Bentley and Paula White and the others like those 2 liars.
cause I think any christian leader who stays silent on folks like Bentley IMO is doing a harm to all christians.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
J,
I think there are two responses to that logic.
First, I don’t think that every Christian leader has to take a public stand against everything he sees as wrong. Actually, I think we’d be better off if a lot of them sat down and shut up once in a while and let there actions talk louder than their words.
The other thing I would say is that I tend to agree with the Ronald Reagan approach (don’t tell Evan) that sometimes responding to something just gives it legitimaticy, whereas if you just ignored it, it will die off on its own.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I agree Phil, but I think silence on folks like Bentley does some harm cause it makes us look like enablers if we dont speak out.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I just don’t understand how Rob Bell, a pastor is Michigan, is somehow enabling a huckster in Florida. Rob Bell is primarily called to minister to those at his church, and I don’t see why he would need to be issuing public statements on every questionable thing in Christendom.
I’m sure if something came up at these guys’ churches they would deal with it. Other than that, I don’t think we’re all called to be busybodies.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
phil, I will explain
since Rob Bell is a nationally known pastor, as is Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt and Mark Scandrette, their silence on their brethren being deceived by guys like Bentley makes them look in many people’s eyes,
that they support Bentley and what he is doing.
To be fair, whether it be Bell or Pagitt or Jones or Scandrette or Richard Abanes or your average pastor,
I think not speaking out on folks like Bentley makes it look like one is a enabler,
the bible tells us to speak out against false teachers in love, not placate or keep silent on apostasy.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I would seriously beg to differ - Bell is in Michigan, Pagitt is in Minnesota, Jones is in New Jersey and Scandrette is in California. Each has his own congregation he serves, and I’m not all that sure that the whole Bently thing is even a blip on the radar there (it certainly isn’t in the circles I run in Indiana).
Criticizing individuals who their congregations have 0.001% idea about is probably not in the best interest of the community time they have with their churches. I would note that Bell, in particular, has criticized the health & wealth gospel and the ‘revival obsession’ on occasions, which is probably more relevant to his church than to single out a guy 1,000 miles away for criticism…
June 18th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Chris,
Bentley’s “revival” isn’t the kind of thing that stays in one place. It travels all over the world. It was that way with the Toronto Blessing and it appears to be that way with this one as well. It could very well come to your area, or people from your area could very well make the trip there - apparently lots of folks are driving lots of miles to get there.
It’s worth warning people about - because if someone is “touched” by this kind of revival it can affect them the rest of their life.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Wow. So now its a sin to NOT be an ODM.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
That’s just plain ridiculous. Let me see, according to your logic, I haven’t seen you take a stand against crack cocaine anywhere, so your silence must mean you support it. When are you going to do something about the crack that’s killing our youth!
You can’t make an argument from silence.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
This Bentlye guy travells around a pretty small group of charismatic believers. Even many charismatic believers eschew him. My partners in laws, charismatic and even health and wealth leaning, walked out after ten minutes. He will strut his hour upon the stage and be seen no more.
If you have to warn someone about Bentley’s ministry and theology, they have bigger issues than just him. If I wasn’t sickly I’d go one night for fun, but to tell you the truth, I’m a little scared!
This is usually a rule of thumb:
When a preacher says God told him to kich someone in the face, you are free from wasting a lot of blog space about him.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Todd Bentley himself seems ridiculous. That doesn’t mean that what is happening with him should be taken lightly. The demonic is real; evil spirits are real. “Anointings” such as this have traveled all over the world in the past, and I see no reason why it won’t be the same this time. It’s already happening.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Actually since the “Emergent” people mentioned are only a tiny part of emerging, I will tell there is a lot of conversation about Lakeland that it is not positive at all. So in our circle we are speaking out and warning people, yet we are not attacking Bentley and others personally.
I wish those who “think” they know all about emerging would realize it is a loose group of people who are engaged in conversations… we are not a denomination or “group”. Tony, Doug and so on are out doing what God has called them to do which may or may not be speaking out about an even smaller group that may or may not be of God.
I think that if ODM’s stopped and really prayed they would realize that God does need to stop His work to deal with possible frauds or fakers… Let alone those who are doing as he called them to do.
I sometimes wonder what is more important to the ODM’s and their followers. Teaching about Jesus and learning how to live out our faith in this postmodern world, or condemning others and attack others becuase they are different than you are.
“I am carrying on a great project and cannot go down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and go down to you?” ~ Nehemiah 6:3
iggy
June 18th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
I haven’t heard MacArthur address the issue. Piper? Sproul? I just haven’t heard.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
That’s a new standard of cristicism, being judged for who you have not condemned…
June 18th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I just want it on the record that I strongly disagree with Joseph Smith’s teachings.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
But since ya left out Brigham Young…
June 18th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Neil - Brigham had some good points and his third wife was a godly woman.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Basically, we have protestants that expect every local pastor that’s gotten some kind of national notoriety to speak out on every issue that comes up. Basically they want little popes to arrogate to themselves concerns/issues that are really beyond the scope of their regular weekly duties as local pastors. Their spiritual authority is really only confined to their congregations.
(Yes, you can go on and on and on about how they have a national platform, etc., but by that standard you have to hold every person in the CBD catalogue to account for not issuing public position statements against every thing going wrong in Christianity. So let’s make sure we take Piper to task and J-Mac and Mahaney and Dever and Challies, etc. etc. etc….you get the picture.)
Personally, I’m glad Rob Bell, etc. don’t take it on themselves to start commenting on every wind of change, etc. It’s not their job. We don’t have popes, remember? Blood of the Reformers and all that…
You can’t celebrate the beauty of the Reformation and then act like we still need a churchwide mechanism for doctrinal enforcement.
You can’t have it both ways. Sorry. You just can’t.
And the fact that it comes up again and again and again just demonstrates that for all the yapping about error, despite it’s accuracy, is really just about control and the fact that we have no churchwide means to exercise it.
Welcome to the bed of the Reformers. You have to lie in it now. I’ll tuck you in.
Night, night.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Haha. But Mr. Luther, I’m having a nightmare. I dreamed I still believed in infant baptism!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:26 am
To true Amy,its here in Southampton UK already, theres various churches who have sent pastors out there, and “brought it back”…
My pastor spoke about it this week, as its becoming popular here..He mentioned that of the 10 largest churches in the UK, four are behind the revival there,and bringing it here.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:46 am
I’m going to use that one and use it soon. Where do I send the royalties?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Here’s another one John:
Joseph Smith’s angel Moroni had a wife. Her name, interestingly enough, was Emma.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Interestingly enough, here in Houston the Hogg family had a daughter nammed Imma. Imma Hogg. I kid you not!
June 19th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Hey Rick, we’re do’n lunch again Bro!
June 20th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Hey, I think I saw the horse move !
June 21st, 2008 at 1:55 am
On June 27, 2008 at 8pm EST Live, we will be interviewing Doug Perry of The Fellowship of the Martyrs - http://www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com in regards to him speaking out about Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries. Some of the questions we will be asking is Who is Todd Bentley and why is Doug and others speaking out about him? If you’re a Christian you don’t want to miss this eye opening show, so feel free to call in with your questions and comments about Todd Bentley.
Bednarsky Talk Radio
Hosted by: Joseph V. Bednarsky Jr.
Phone Number: (724) 444-7444
Call ID: 10285
For more info and updates visit http://www.joebednarsky.com
June 21st, 2008 at 11:21 am
to post 43, so you are saying that
Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt and Mark Scandrette and Tony Jones should focus on selling books than speaking out against false teachers
June 21st, 2008 at 12:45 pm
They should focus first upon their individual church communities, and if they are led by God into certain areas of ministry, like writing books, they should follow His leading. (I Cor 12) I’m guessing that they don’t feel they’ve been called to be nannies for every Christian on the planet…
June 21st, 2008 at 1:12 pm
I just found out last night that Todd himself came to a stadium not that far from me. A neighbor said it was packed out with 3,000, another 3,000 waiting to enter. Apparently Todd is coming here because of a commitment that he made to someone to come to this area months ago.
He is expecting to see a “real impartation” here and a “real fire” started in this area.
The interesting thing is that it was already supposed to have come here, through another church. I guess his coming here will make it bigger.
June 21st, 2008 at 1:44 pm
A real fire? Someone better call the fire dept….those winds can really spread a fire I heard…really dangerous stuff…
Have the department on watch!
Joe
June 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm
The “department” will no doubt be divided on whether it’s a beneficial forest fire or a destructive fire.
June 21st, 2008 at 1:52 pm
. . . or simply dust from someone beating their dead horse.
June 21st, 2008 at 6:12 pm
LOL!
June 28th, 2008 at 2:19 am
This is almost 2 weeks old and I missed it!
DAGGERS!