Justice…Mercy…Rambo?
There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them. I suppose we all have our moments, but as new creations in Christ, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not only that, but we are to love each other as Christ loved us. Those recent comments, my current situation, and Rambo have all come together to open up my heart.
Being in the middle of a high impact natural disaster (I live in a small town on the Mississippi river that will flood most of the buildins on Main St. by next week), I’ve been thinking a lot about questions like the above. After the second day of sandbagging, I finally had to quit early and so I got some time to finally watch Rambo (the new one) which we’ve had from Netflix for days. I was surprised at how intensely the film dealt with similar issues and questions I have been thinking on.
I was surprised to very quickly learn that this Rambo wasn’t really about John Rambo, is about the suffering of the people of Burma. Stalone often likes to say something meaningful in his films, and for this one he found out about the awful situation (pre-natural disaster, so you can imagine how much worse it is now) of the Burmese under the rule of the military. Of course, there’s lots of gory action, but I’d still recommend any adult to see it, partly because the gore is not out of place. In fact, you’ll find some tame pictures on the sites listed below that provide the evidence for the brutatlity visualized for you in Rambo.
The most convicting part of the film was the dedication to action of the Christians in the film. One thing that gets me, both locally for our flood, and globally for situations like Burma, is how churches and christians can sit around and do nothing yet people who do not know the grace of God through Jesus Christ do everything from helping to fill sandbags to save a few homes to struggling for the lives of people half a world away.
If we don’t do what we are taught in scripture, does it have any value for our lives? What does it take for us to love our neighbors?
Father, forgive us for walking on the other side of the street pretending not to see the need of our neighbor. Create in us a heart of compassion. Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs.
Watch the movie if you haven’t seen it yet. In the mean time, check out these websites:
June 14th, 2008 at 2:42 am
Wow, thanks for introducing me to those organizations.
I would also add Avaaz to the list, not only for the current situation in Myanmar, but many other problems around the world. They have shown themselves to be an incredibly effective force in multiplying the power of voices in every nation in the world to alleviate suffering, fight injustice, etc.
http://www.avaaz.org
June 14th, 2008 at 2:52 am
But it is so much more self pleasing to sit in my air-conditioned study of my suburban mansion in my comfy chair and use my high speed connection to attack those activists who preach a social gospel. I can show you scripture upon scripture that will validate my attack on all who I think are not being true to the gospel.
“In an age of effeminized males who are more concerned about hurting people’s feelings and posturing as nice guys than fulfilling the biblical calling of contending for truth(as I see it),…” the world(me and my posse) needs people to launch these attacks so that we can feel save in our (self)righteous fortresses.
Christian P, your post makes me very uncomfortable here in my comfortable chair! I’m sure there is a scripture verse that will deal with you. Let me just use the search engine of my Bible program … … … … … …
Uhm… I’ll get back to you Christian P! Let me just find the verse (and remove it from its context) then I’ll hit you over the head with it.
June 14th, 2008 at 7:08 am
“Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs.”
Amen, thank you, Christian.
June 14th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Talking of films one to look out for
Taxi to the darkside
(He who fights with monsters, might take care lest he thereby become a monster)
June 14th, 2008 at 9:03 am
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them. ”
Yeah, I feel your pain dude. Like for example the jusdmental comment #2 above by E.R. which also takes sarcastic shot at Ingrid for god measure to prove your point.
Do you guys even read what you write?
June 14th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Christian, your post moved me, and especially that one statement. I have written about it and linked here. Since when I post a link it gets spammed, just click on my name.
Thanks again for a very important principle to us all.
June 14th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Last time I checked, Eugene (like you) is a commenter here, not one of the writers…
June 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Ken,
If you were as respectful and salient as Eugene this site wouldn’t exist.
Speck, plank, etc.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Ken,
When I went and read E.R.’s comments… I did not even see or think of Ingrid… I did agree and thought how silly it is for someone as blessed as we are in America to feel “persecuted”.
Funny how you can read something and feel as it it is about you or one of your cronies… yet miss the main point of what was written.
Selfish ambition does blind people to see things in a paranoid way… and that is what I get from comment #5.
Still praying blessings on you, regardless as to what you see me as.
iggy
June 14th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
“effeminized males”
Or the reverse. Do you mean fathers, and husbands, and preachers, and other followers of Christ who may or may not be as harsh or discerning compared to whatever subjective and narcissistic measuring stick you are using?
The creative mixing of subject invectives and the scorched earth labeling of men comes conspicuously from a source of questionable gender authority.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Stallone likes to say something meaningful in his films? Like: YO ADRIAN!
This post and the ensuing comments would be funny if they were not so pathetic.
We should just tell the flood victims and the hurricane victims, (even thoe still suffering from Katrina) as well as the victims of the wars, acts of terrorism, the tsunami, all who have recently lost fortunes in the market, etc. etc. etc, that the God of preterism has given power to mankind to save the earth.You know all those failsafe and doomsday devices that we have so that we do not have to believe that that biblical prophecies mean anything past the first century.
I am still looking for the passages where Jesus spoke of political reform and social welfare agencies.
How come none of you are jumping on the next plane to Burma?
This post reeks of pious pablum.
As for the worn out speck and log rhetoric, (talk about lifting out of context)……. God help us.
BTW iggy, no one is stupid enough to believe that the reference by Eugene was not directed at Ingrid.
I wish I could make myself as holy as you have made yourselves.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Actually, what’s funny is Eugene is quoting Ingrid where she took a silly pot shot at me on Extreme Theology b/c I expressed my belief that Paula (purpose drivel) needs to seek help. Ken defended and applauded over there. Oh Ken, that’s a double standard.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
A question:
Have Paula and Mrs. Schlueter ever been photgraphed or seen together?
June 14th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Joe,
thanks for letting me know that I am out of the loop… that actually feels good to not know the insides story of all the psychodrama that is the ODM world.
= )
iggy
June 14th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Christian P,
My prayers are with you as you face the floods… Hope there is not as much damage in your town as there was in others.
iggy
June 14th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Tim,
*yawn* It must be hard for you personally to see through your forest, eh.
Chris L.,
I am aware he is a commenter; the point is collectively you gentlemen all agree that it’s ok to talk as if you should be loving etc., etc.; but your comments re. “ODMs” do not have to follow suit, which has become quite evident in subsequent comments.
Joe,
The Lord bless you.
iggy,
Take Joe’s salient advice: “seek help.”
June 14th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them”
Physician, heal thyself.
June 14th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Ken (and others),
I would like to explain to you why I made that sarcastic comment. See, I live in South Africa where I am come face to face with extreme poverty and need on a daily basis. Together with our church we try to address the need, but feel overwhelmed by the amount and hugeness of it. At the moment we are also faced with the ugly crimes caused by xenophobia. We need Christ’s light in this darkness and the church should shine that light.
I have been reading blogs for just over a month now and what saddens me more than I can express in words is the following. When a post is made about the need of the world around us and how Christians help or should help the amount of comments that post get rarely rises above 10. Soon that thread is forgotten. Mention RW tin a post though and you are sure to get more than a 100 comments. Even months later you’ll still see discussion on such a thread (check the dates for yourself). If you cannot figure it out for yourself let me state it clear: Something is terribly wrong here!
I am sorry that you found my comment hurtful, Ken. It is not my intention to sow hurt. Please excuse me if I’m not sympathetic towards your critique on RW, Emergent Churches and the like because it is from people like them that we receive the most support at the moment. They do not just talk about Christ, they are living Him.
I also feel sorry for people like Paula who got hurt through bad decisions in their churches and where PD was involved, I went through much of that myself. But really, we should get over our hurt and pain and get off our criticising backsides and do something. People are living in poverty, fear, sickness and are dying daily without Christ. So please, spend less time defending your position, get down from your tower and come help where help is needed. We need experienced Christians who can communicate the gospel clearly to these people in need.
I got carried away a bit here, so I’ll get off my soapbox.
Christian P, I pray that the God will protect your town from serious damage and that Christ’s light will shine brightly through his church during this time in your town.
June 14th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Faith without works is dead…
But so are works without faith…And that is the problem we see so often in the states. People are self righteous, and that is the feel I get on the tone of this OP.
I truly hope that no more flooding happens, and people’s lives are not destroyed by it. My problem is the self-righteous shot as I was packing sandbags I was thinking about Rambo and the rotten things ODMs do.
Physician, heal thyself.
Pray for South Africa, Pray for Burma, more important, send aid. Support Missions. Waste less time cutting down people you hate (see ODM’s)
June 14th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
pastorboy,
If you held ODMs and yourself to the same standard you try to hold us you’d be writing for this site.
June 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Eugene,
“I am sorry that you found my comment hurtful, Ken. It is not my intention to sow hurt. ” I didn’t find it personally hurtful, I found it judgmental is all.
“Please excuse me if I’m not sympathetic towards your critique on RW, Emergent Churches and the like because it is from people like them that we receive the most support at the moment.”
You and me have no problem personally Eugene, k. Offering humanitarian aid is a noble endeavor regardless of one’s religious affiliation and no one’s arguing against that.
However, the Christian is to offer said aid and bring glory to Jesus Christ as we do. This means we must do things His way whether they appear to make sense to us or not.
So with the majority of both sides of my family trapped within the apostate Roman Catholic Church and still on the broad path to Hell please forgive me if I’m not sympathetic to your approval of RW, Emergent Churches and the like .
“They do not just talk about Christ, they are living Him.” The fact is that their ecumenical actions right now show they are not talking about the actual Jesus Christ. They are living a lie about Him.
June 14th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Rick said:
“A question:
Have Paula and Mrs. Schlueter ever been photgraphed or seen together?”
I do not know, Rick, what it is I have ever done to you to deserve a direct hit from you on every CRN.info post, but you’ve done it again. I have never done anything mean to you that I am aware of in my life. I do not know you and would not recognize you if you came to my church tomorrow. Why do you hate me so much that every time you get a chance, there’s a slur on me? I enjoyed this post very much as I am also interested in the hurting people in our world. Over 300 children have found homes from around the world through the special needs adoption work I involved with. I testified before a Senate committee last year on behalf of tax credits for special needs adoptions in our state. I say that not to boast, it’s a drop in the bucket of need, but only to demonstrate that I too take seriously our call to make a difference as Christians. One little boy had half his face mangled in Bulgaria when he was born. A rural doctor mishandled forceps and scarred this child for life. Through a radio spot I recorded, a United Airlines pilot and his wife adopted him and brought him to the US where he has had reconstructive surgery and a new life with a Christian family. I could tell a lot of stories here but I will not because it isn’t about me, it’s about God in his mercy doing great things. Our son was rejected by everyone, had had bone 35 fractures and at 13 was on his way to a horrible teen orphanage where he would have been killed or raped. Do you have any idea what a joy it was to take this boy and bring him into a Christian home and love him? He’s 22 now and studying to be pharmacist. We can’t change everything wrong in this world, but when we go out in Christ’s name, with love for the Gospel and those who are hurting, amazing things can be accomplished.
Rick, I am willing to talk any time by email or phone regarding the above issue. I want you to know that.
June 14th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Hmmm,
What has Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, Mark Driscoll, Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt, or any of your other targets ever done to you Mrs. Schlueter? It’s your prerogative to blast away at all of these men and more, surely it cannot bother you all that much to have one man who is nearly contained to a wheel chair due to a terrible health issue take serious issue with you. I mean, you’re entire “ministry” is built upon blowing up people who don’t even know who are you.
June 14th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Mrs. Schlueter - my comment was meant as humor suggesting a similarity in tone between you and someone named Paula. I am sorry if it offended you.
Your humanitarian efforts are commendable, but you should also know that men like Rick Warren do similar works of compassion and yet his humanitarian gestures are not only not recognized by some discerment blogs, they are ridiculed and demeaned.
I know you are involved in things like that and that is a great thing. The school you posted and interviewed about was a positive gospel ministry. The obvious difference that you and I have aside, you would receive much more credibility if you addressed your issues with more objectivity and less hyperbole. I think the most offense part of SOL is your shameless posting of the personal sins of the lost and other believers, and your indiscriminate use of secular sources for many of those attacks.
As has been pointed out in volumes, Rick Warren’s good deeds do not excuse any of his compromises. So unchristian behavior cannot be excused by any of our good deeds.
I do not hate you as you suggest, and you say you enjoyed this post. Perhaps you missed this opening sentence,
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them.”
Many of those comments come from people who support you and whom you support. You cannot rescue the perishing on one hand, and verbally anhhiliate others on the other, and be blind to the obvious contradiction. And it is not acceptable to revile some like Ravi Zacharius, Franklin Graham, and Bob Jones III and then act as if you are being persecuted by some comments from an obscure blogger on an obscure blog.
I will avoid the humor in the future, but I will still point out some unchristian writing that comes from your pen.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
“I do not hate as you suggest” (Rick)
For quite a while, weeks, Rick, I’ve been thinking about a thought that came into my mind one day and wondered if I would ever share it with you. I guess it’s time. The thought was this - that if I saw a tombstone with your name on it, what would be written there is “Hater of Ingrid.”
You can say you don’t hate; you and others can say that such a thought is ridiculous, but I share it with you because I think you need to consider that at least to me, that is the thing that stands out most to me about you, from reading this blog.
Please consider what I’m saying. I think that your animosity towards her is hurting you far worse than her.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
pb,
honestly what has christian p. done to you? I can’t think of any writings or comments here that you should take offense to. I think this was a great piece, one that we should all think about instead of looking for ways to attack each other.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Amy - it is quite phenominal that you can judge my heart, but you would never suggest that Mrs. Schlueter hates those who she verbally attacks with no other reason than agreeing the secular press.
Your tombstone suggestion is silly. What would your tombstone say? Probably something a little more generous than what you’ve presented for me.
Tim Reed’s tombstone - “A Goofball Who Loved Jesus”
June 14th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
TOMBSTONE ENSCRIPTIONS
Iggy - “He Tested the Boundaries of God’s Grace”
Mandy - “Endured Great Domestic Trials”
Chris L. - “He was Wrong About the Rapture”
Rick Frueh - “An Enigma Wrapped in a Conundrum”
June 14th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Rick,
Rick, I’m not trying to judge your heart. I wasn’t sitting around thinking about “Now, what would Rick’s tombstone say?” The picture just came to my mind. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of Mrs. Schlueter. (And why must so many things be judged using her as the measuring stick? Isn’t this part of the problem?)
I really felt like it was my responsibility to share the thought with you. You’re welcome to think whatever you want about it, including that it’s silly. But you might want to think about it some more instead of just sloughing it off.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
A tombstone? Was that a vision from God, and if not why would you share that? Is it meant to frighten me, especially since I’ve come close to death twice in the last 9 months?
I find fault with the tone of SOL and you give me a tombstone vision. If I had shared a tombstone vision with you or somebody else you would have attacked me. I believe in visions, do you?
I guess I’ve heard it all, tombstone visions used to correct someone. I now ask you to dialogue with others, you have no credibility with me.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I can live with that.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
It’s amazing how quickly we can get off topic.
Ingrid, thank you for the compassion you show to those in need and for the kind words on what I wrote.
PB, You read what you wanted to read, that I was attacking ODM’s. Did I have certain individuals and comments in mind when I adapted this to CRN.info? Yes. But I wrote the piece for Church Voices which has nothing to do with the work done here. I felt that the piece fit well with what is happening here. What I did say was that I was thinking about similar questions. If you must know there is some leadership in our congregation that I will have to deal with about their complete, and I mean complete, inaction for their neighbors and even church members.
Ken, I don’t want to be rude, I don’t know you, but I’ve had a long hard day, and dealing with people that give me crap about this kind of stuff makes me want to yell at them. This wasn’t about you (as far as I know). Get over yourself. Did you read what I wrote?
Look people, these are all things I am trying to deal with, including my own inaction at times. I was going to send funds to help ministries in Burma, I don’t think I ever got around to it. Shame on me. Like I said, all of this has come together at the same time. God is transforming my heart and life as we speak. If you don’t have something nice or beneficial to say, keep your mouth shut. Like a 70 year old woman said today to a few people just standing around, “Either pick up a shovel or go home.”
For those that are or have, thank you for your prayers and kind words.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Trouble is I see no bounds…
June 14th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Pastorboy,
If those were the words God gave you to write here… first go and do as God told you to do then back come here after you are healed. We will rejoice with you!
Until then realize you are just as sick as the rest of us and need Jesus just the same as we do…
iggy
June 14th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Hoping and praying for you and your community, Christian - and hoping that those you were writing to (hint: not ODM’s, though they see themselves in every criticism) begin to feel the compassion they are called to act upon.
I’ve been gone all day, at my father’s 65th birthday party, and I have to say I’m pretty disappointed in a number of the comments here - not surprised, just disappointed. Lots of searching for specks whilst planks are whacking about.
E.R. - my son just got back from South Africa last week, and has been talking about his trip there (singing with a college choir). My prayers go our to you, as well…
June 14th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
SBA,
It’s sad that you are so hateful and completely and continually misrepresent everyone here, and even Christ, in your comments. I guess it doesn’t matter how many times you’re corrected, you just lie and slander on, spewing hatred in your wake…
June 14th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
“The creative mixing of subject invectives and the scorched earth labeling of men comes conspicuously from a source of questionable gender authority.”
No dad, this is your tombstone engraving! That is what you have received here today! LOL
June 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
ben,
Sorry dude, I really had no clue, my world must be bigger than the small orbit of the average ODM. I just can’t keep up with their petty issues. I most assuredly do not go around chasing Ingrid and who she posts to and what she says. I do have much more of a life than that! Yet I think now that we have E.R.’s context, you might and should rethink your attack on me and others and even apologize.
iggy
June 14th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Faith without works is dead…
But so are works without faith…And that is the problem we see so often in the states. People are self righteous, and that is the feel I get on the tone of this OP.
I truly hope that no more flooding happens, and people’s lives are not destroyed by it. My problem is the self-righteous shot as I was packing sandbags I was thinking about Rambo and the rotten things ODMs do.
Physician, heal thyself.
Pray for South Africa, Pray for Burma, more important, send aid. Support Missions. Waste less time cutting down people you hate (see ODM’s) Then the world would be a better place.
June 14th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Christian P-
Thanks for your words of inspiration. May God’s peace dwell richly where you are.
I have been away for a week and have missed my friends here.
grace and peace,
Chad
June 15th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Funny, but I don’t see that quote in the OP, nor did I read it there (or in Christian P’s follow-up, above)… Maybe it’s time to be a charitable reader, John. Try something new for a change…
June 15th, 2008 at 6:37 am
This isn’t about Rambo but it is about justice and mercy.
Have you guys seen the attack on Barnes and Noble being hosted and led by Brannon Howse? Following these articles has made me think a lot about how Christians should respond when offended by nonChristian influences.
Now Howse is encouraging Christians to go looking for questionable material at their local B & N and report back. I am certain looking for trouble and possibly being tempted is not what we should be doing.
Anyway, I’d like to hear the point of view from writers and commentors here about Howse’s crusade.
(You could tell me to go get a blog, and that would be fair, but you guys do it so well.)
June 15th, 2008 at 6:51 am
Me thinks he doth protest too much.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Chris L
Teach oh wise one how to be a charitable reader! For I do not know the finer points of it! Oh, that I could be a charitable reader, then I could find no ill will in any comments or writings! Oh to have the blinders of rose colored glasses; to be able to read websites and blogs and see only the good…
Oh but I would be disappointed, for if my favorite writers like Tim, and Joe, and Chris, Chris L, and Mandy, and Nathaniel, well, they would have nothing to write! What would happen to Carlos? oh my…
Please, I will become a charitable reader…just PROMISE ME that these, my favorite writers, will NEVER follow suit.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Moral crusaders are legion and are mostly an irritant and counter productive to the gospel. The weapons of our warefare are not carnal, and we must avoid battling moral issues on secular grounds.
It is these type of things that misrepresent the love has for sinners, and in this case gays. If you do not like what B&N does, go somewhere esle but don’t parade your moral outrage which usually results in more blog hits and in Howse’s case more donations.
Attention people - we live in Babylon, deal with it. How? By, as Christian P. suggested, being little Christ’s to a dark world. Please do not act surprised when you have to rub shoulders with that darkness, if Jesus felt like that He never would have come to this dark world in the first place.
But what about my children? Oh, let’s see, perhaps you can TEACH THEM and even use some objectionable things to exhort them to PRAY FOR THESE PEOPLE AND LOVE THEM LIKE JESUS DID!?
Moral outrage is an attention getter, but it surely doesn’t demonstrate the redemption of Jesus Christ to those you castigate freely in the public square. And the leverage of commerce just reveals how spiritually bankrupt the church has become.
“If you don’t stop that we won’t pay you”. How pitiful. We no longer have any light to carry into the darkness, they must dispel the darkness before we can share because we are so offended by the darkness of sinners.
“But we live in a society.” No you don’t, you live in God’s invisible kingdom and you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. When will actually practice what we SAY we believe. As I sit here I hope no gay people are involved in activity that will invade my moral paradise.
Take another look at the cross and see how far our Lord was willing to tread into the moral abysss. HE BECAME SIN FOR US. So next time you happen to see two men kissing or doing other things, remember, Christ did not shrink from that, He became that so that those men you turn from might be saved.
Jane - I guess I agree with you.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Christian P,
I want to apologise for voicing my frustration on this thread and sparking a debate that took the discussion away from the core of your post’s message. I share your frustration with my own inaction sometimes towards some of the need I feel drawn to.
Ingrid, I am sorry that I assumed you only judge people and are not involved in charity work as well. Please forgive me. Please do not feel like you are blowing your own horn when you share what you are involved in, in this area, for it is an inspiration and encourages people to do the same. May the grace and love of God that flow through you in this manner multiply and become the absolute earmark of your ministry.
June 15th, 2008 at 8:17 am
PB,
It is a mighty big and wonderful world my friend… and mine does not revolve around in the small orbit you seem to thrive in.
God created the universe far and vast and way beyond your own naval.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Happy Father’s day to all you fathers out there!
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:01 am
“God created the universe far and vast and way beyond your own naval.”
*wiping a tear from my eye*
Carlos, that was so bee-u-tee-ful man.
June 15th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Christian P.,
So who was talking to you, certainly not me.
“Get over yourself.”
Good advice for you man.
June 15th, 2008 at 9:13 am
PB,
I see you at least understand sarcasm. Sad, though, that you’re supposedly a pastor…
June 15th, 2008 at 9:24 am
PB,
Also, I am not a writer for this blog… I am a commentor just as you are.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am
But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Tim, (breath, breath, breath), I am not your father! Lol
Got to love a star wars analogy!
June 15th, 2008 at 11:23 am
“Sad, though, that you’re supposedly a pastor…”
Is this really called for…
June 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I’m trying to appeal to his sense of responsibility to the office he claims…
Being a charitable reader has a number of manifestations - probably a key one being, “if you’re offended by it, re-read it for clarity to see if it could be interpreted in a way in which offense was not met.” I the case of this article, Christian didn’t target any ODM or individual - but was rather general, seeming to apply to all individuals involved. In return, all sorts of snide insinuations were made, with several from you and PB along the lines of “physician heal yourself”, completely uncalled for:
Basically, Christian is dealing with real-life situation where brothers and sisters in Christ are not caring for their flesh-and-blood neighbors, and calling out a larger point from the experience that is relevant to us all…
June 15th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them.”
Compassionate Rendering? There have been a number of comments on this site by both ADM’san d ODM’s that show the uncompassionate (not a real word), unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them, including myself in this piece.
Am I doing this right?
June 15th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
CRN.info Physician, heal thyself.
June 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Chris L.
I lay claim to no office, it has been bestowed on me by a committee formed by my denomination to examine and observe my ministry. I have been placed there by the current body I serve.
June 15th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
PB, that is a more appropriate reading.
Including yourself in the piece is always a good thing when the piece calls us to reflect on our lives in Christ.
If that’s not the way you meant what you wrote, then that completely illustrates Chris L.’s point.
June 15th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Rick wrote a wonderful post, The Doctrine of Compassion, on his blog that had me thinking all day. I decided to read through James in The Message and this just struck me again like a cannon ball:
James 1:26-27
“Anyone who sets himself up as “religious” by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world.”
For those of us who do not understand the Peterson paraphrase, here it is in the KJV:
“26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
May God help us to be “seen and not heard” as Petra used to sing.
June 15th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
PB,
Are you SBC? If so then there is not much check up and chance of followup as to whether you are still doing well.
I was encouraged by friends to look in to ordination and could not believe how easy the SBC was to be ordained through them. I had some obvious reasons as I am of the Pentecostal background and believe and practice certain “gifts” the SBC seems confused about.
Yet, I was surprised that I was attacked by someone in that denom who thought my ordination… which is from God first then of man, was not valid. My ordination of man was also reviewed for a year from those who gave me a temp ordination, followed me for a years. They mentored me and asked me about my beliefs. Even now if they are contacted that i am not preaching the bible and Jesus, I will have my ordination revoked after another review. I saw that this rarely happens in the SBC if ever. I saw more accountability in my so called fraudulent group than that major denomination. The small group I was starting the church plant with acknowledge me as their pastor for two years.
Currently I an doing pastoral internship at my local church. I am not officially ordained with them, but I have a good laugh comparing ordination cards with my pastor who really likes how much more professional looking mine is… LOL!
Later I was told by a friendly ODM wannabe I was a fraud.
My point in this story… to me after the attack that included this person insinuating I was a pedophile, put a bad taste in my mouth for ordination. Yet, again it is of God first then man and really I do not care what man has to say if they are not part of my local fellowship. Even if you are not SBC, I have found that many are easy to get in and very hard to actually be tossed out. It takes many years and much politics to get someone tossed out which rarely has to do with what that person truly teaches.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
“I’m trying to appeal to his sense of responsibility to the office he claims…”
And I’m trying to appeal to your mocking, yet again, the role in the Body of Christ that John does not “claim,” but rather Jesus Christ Himself called him to.
You would do well to remember this fact.
June 15th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Actually after all that I remember you are CMA if I recall… which was really active in the emerging church when I first began looking at that denomination.
I mean if you are CMA, then why not go after your denom first before you attack others.
http://www.livinghopealliance.ca/
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
No mocking, Ken… just an appeal, which I’m not sure was seriously considered… As for it being ‘fact’, I think you’d best check the dictionary for the difference between ‘fact’ and ‘opinion’, as his actions on these boards and elsewhere suggest the latter…
June 15th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Believe me, John, we try every day, though some days not as successfully as others.
That said, though, these days you (and Ken) are sounding a whole lot like the guy on the left, with about as much credibility.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
As if that is Carte Blanche to act completely contrary to the Christ who called him.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
What’s interesting is nowhere are any of the ODM’s mentioned in the OP. In fact, it is obviously written for all of us and yet John and Ken are moaning about how mean we are to them. The only logical explanation is that they have a guilty conscience. It is sad to watch.
And as for John trying to somehow use his position as a pastor as a reason that he’s allowed to be a jerk…well, we’ll let God sort that some day.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
It only took a few comments to move from compassion to “I know you are but what am I?”
June 15th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Rick,
It is amazing
Joe,
No one is whining, and I will say it again
CRN.Info physician, heal thyself.
June 15th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Iggy,
Million dollar Idea. But I already grabbed it..
http://www.thywordisalamp08.blogspot.com
June 15th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Everyone is being so cranky today (including me yesterday). I have a suggestion that we all say sorry and get over these problems because in the long run they are all rather minor. When I read the thread,
It sounds like a personal, not global prayer and call accusing no-one of anything. We should be all agreeing instead that this is true.
June 15th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Comments being deleted now?
June 15th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
John,
We have many problems, which each of us struggles with from day to day, for which we rely on the great physician to heal. We cannot on our own, though we bear each other’s burdens as we are familiar with them.
In this case - to be blunt - Christian’s initial post was missing no grace and it really wasn’t about you until you made it so. In this case, you’ve made it self-evident where the hypocrisy lies, and it doesn’t even require a keyboard, but only a mirror, for you to see it.
I would kindly suggest you stop your current course of constant whining and “I know you are but what am I”, particularly when it is irrelevant to the posts you’ve done it on (such as this one). You’ve reached the point where you truly do have the credibility of the guy on the left, above…
June 15th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Indeed, Dave, I read it as a general call, and not a specific one. With all of the obvious opportunity in the communities around us, it is one we each need be mindful of…
June 15th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
You either were hearing from God or needed medication. Thanks again for the post, it opened up my heart as well, especially the “Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs” prayer. As you can tell from my post, I saw a new view of deeds of compassion.
“Would you help a sinner if God showed you he would never believe on Christ?”
June 15th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I just cleared the spam queue awhile ago and didn’t see anything there…
June 15th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
John, I find it interesting you loudly proclaim what the Pharisees and those gathered to execute Jesus were proclaiming. Well done.
June 15th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
“CRN.Info physician, heal thyself.”
Do you make house calls?
June 15th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“I just cleared the spam queue awhile ago and didn’t see anything there…”
Is ok, but it was already online as comment #70 where John’s comments now appears.
June 15th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
PB,
Yep, more misinformed hate speech from John Chisham…
Better being a new liberal who is changing things back to God’s word than a modernist who insists on making God bow to Scientific ideals and Platonist dualism.
Apparently now a new liberal who holds to the truth that Jesus is God and The Way, The Truth and the Life… which I guess is evil and vile to Pastorboy.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Oh and by the way, when Jesus stated Physician heal thyself, it was to put the religious leaders in their place to realize they needed Him as their savior. From how you are using it here I just thought I might mention that as the only person that seems to not understand we are all sick and need Jesus is you Pastorboy.
So instead of healing yourself, turn to Jesus and He will heal you and set you free with The Truth which He is.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Ken,
Would you please follow your own advise and stop attacking me? I am also called by Christ Jesus to pastor at my church. In that I also am a teacher there. These are my gifts as well as others God has given me, yet you attack me on very personal levels then call others to not do so…
Again, this is a sick standard of truth you promote. Full of contradictions and relativistic truth based on your own theological understandings… return to Jesus Ken… Stop your error and continual sin against Christ Holy Body.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
BTW, Ken, Stop attack you Masters other servants as you do not know hwat He has called them to do. In that you keep doing this you continue to offend Christ Jesus Himself.
iggy
June 15th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Ken - I’ve approved a bunch of your comments today - I didn’t think any were deleted, so I don’t know what happened…
June 15th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Chris L.,
It’s no problem. No accusations or anything. I just wondered and I appreciate your checking into it.
iggy,
May the Lord bless you.
June 15th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
It all comes down to this again here on this site…
You guys do the same thing that you moan and groan about ODM’s doing. The problem is, the ADM’s are going to face a stricter judgement, because you have set a standard that you don’t meet, and no one can meet.
Its a house of cards, a Vegas casino, the odds are stacked against anyone except the ‘elite’ who think they have it all together.
You guys are so self righteous ‘protecting against persecution from within’ and yet you make no effort to build bridges or improve anything. Instead you have Tim with his sarcastic comments, and Joe with his judgmental comments and merry and zan backing up their men and RA showing up everytime the rock star of evangekicalism is mentioned.
So keep on firing your pot shots at the ODMs while the midwest floods and the Burmese perish. It will do a whole lotta good.
June 15th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
John,
How old are you? Seriously? I mean you gotta be in your fifties, right? You just keep throwing that “you guys are just mean cuz you do what you accuse me of doing” all day long. It’s not gonna stick. You are mean. You have a bad mean temper where you tell other people to “shove it.” You create open letters to Tony Jones asking him to “get saved” cuz he kicked your ass in an interview and made you look silly. So silly, your wife had to write a letter defending you. This thread had nothing to do with until you made it about you. If you are what a Christian should look like, or if you are telling your church to follow you as you follow Christ than God help us all, because you are like a drunk who keeps talking about all the people out there who smoking dope.
If your actions represent a Christian, then we truly have no hope.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
And John,
What bridges are you building? I’m curious. I just read your last 25 comments. Which one of them were “building” bridges? I appreciate you and Ken coming over here and commenting, it helps remind me just how valuable this site is. It helps remind me that as ugly as this business is, it is necessary.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Ok,
I’m done, I’m going back to my policy of not engaging John. John, allow me to apologize for expressing what I felt. While I believe those feelings are accurate and honest, they aren’t necessary. I do truly mean, that I want nothing to do with the Christianity you represent.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Joe,
Temper, Temper, Jr.
Just because the Yankees are struggling does not mean you have to get all personal and stuff.
And who moderates the moderators over here, anyway? That vulger language does not pass muster with me, does not make me feel threatened, only amazed. Of course that is what happens, and you and Tony Jones can justify using obscene language because it is the same thing in the original greek.
The hypocrisy on this site is so deep I am drowning in it. My wife defending me? Nah, she was offended at Tony blowing her off. And again, LOL! You, Chris L, and Tim’s wives regularly come on here and attempt to defend their men. My wife wouldn’t be caught dead in here. She recognizes hypocrisy when she sees it.
This site is valuable, because a bunch of pomos can blow off steam at the mean ole modernists. Just admit that you are a mirror of the ODM’s you hate, and you are becomming more and more like the ones you claim are so wrong everyday.
Peace, out. Joe. Go watch the Yankees lose again or something.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
“it helps remind me just how valuable this site is. It helps remind me that as ugly as this business is, it is necessary.”
O, I couldn’t agree more. The pabulum passing for Christianity today, which shaped the people who write for CRN.Info needs to be exposed.
That way, even if the people writing about and defending the counterfeit version of Christianity espoused and advanced here can’t/won’t repent, perhaps some of the readership might see through their self-righteousness and pride.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
“I do truly mean, that I want nothing to do with the Christianity you represent.”
That we can agree on…The feeling is mutual. I want nothing to do with Rob Bell and your church either, if you can call it Christianity.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Wow.
Out of the heart and all that I suppose.
From now on whenever someone pops off that this site is just like the ODMs but from another perspective I’ll just point them to this thread.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Good Idea Tim,
If they have an objective bone in their body, they will see no difference.
BTW, dads, Happy Fathers Day.
Even you, Joe, and Carlos…and especially Rick who must be brimming with pride about his Son.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Hey John,
When was the last time my wife commented here? Also, if you’re drowning maybe you should just get out of the water.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Joe,
I do not know the last time Erica commented here. Believe it or not, my universe does not rotate around this site. I can tell you how many times my wife has…0!!
I am swimming against the tide of hypocrisy here, and will struggle as long as the Lord allows.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
John said,
So I went to his blog where I found this sentence very near the beginning
Now, maybe if you had done a better job of staying “on track” well who knows..
June 15th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Good Night, Joe
June 15th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
That’s gotta stink to have your own wife figure you’re gonna mess it up.ouch
June 15th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
It is a good night John, same to you.
June 15th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Reading this thread is so funny! This is like watching the old Roller Derby competitions from the eighties! Or red rover red rover send an ODM right over! LOL
June 15th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
I have noticed that comments that have a lot of “you guys” in them seem to be in the “unproductive” category. And for some reason those type of comments seem to reproduce after their own kind.
It’s called the Genesis principle.
June 15th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Agreed, Rick!
Interestingly, as I survey the front page, of the 10 articles listed, two are commending ODM sites for something positive, one is responding to an ODM not usually noted here, 1 is a humorous post, and the remaining 6 are about applied Christianity of different sorts…
With all of the squealing and finger-pointing in some of those threads, just as “on-topic” as those here, you’d never know it from listening to the ODM apologists…
As usual, the data and facts and circumstances paint a wholly different reality than the Don Quixote world of John, Ken and company…
Totally agreed (aside from calling Jesus’ teaching ‘pablum’), it would be nice if more Christians started following Christ instead of Tomas de Torquemada, the father of ODM’s…
June 15th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I really believe that negativism is a stronghold. It is different than real discernment, which is a part of a believer’s life but not the main course. After a while negativism becomes who you are and you cannot even reply to a devotional post with anything but with an argument or criticism.
It is this type of visceral negativism that cannot even bring your self to admit that Rick Warren does some beneficial acts of compassion because you think that in and of itself is compromise. And that deep judgmentalism assigns sinister motivation to even anything good that someone does. If Rob Bell invented a cure for AIDs these people would suggest he was the anti-christ and was preparing to deceive people.
It is that type of hysteria which diminishes any capacity for sound and honest correction due to the unbridled nature of that kind of negativism. It is not only some major points of disagreement, it is an across the board demeaning of everything a person says and does. In the end, we cannot even agree on showing compassion.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:06 am
PB proves again that biblical accuracy matters little when it conflicts with his own personal beliefs. He asserts that justification is needed when none is needed as it is in the original language.
iggy
June 16th, 2008 at 7:01 am
–That said, though, these days you (and Ken) are sounding a whole lot like the guy on the left, with about as much credibility.–
Wow, I don’t think that was so much “stepping over the line” as it was putting yourself into a circus cannon and having yourself shot way across it.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:12 am
“putting yourself into a circus cannon and having yourself shot way across it.”
Sometimes within the sniping comes something funny. I will save this and use it in the future as if it was my own!
June 16th, 2008 at 7:21 am
PB,
John, your the tsunami! LOL!
iggy
June 16th, 2008 at 7:51 am
It is interesting that a compassion piece, as this was, is opened with an attack of sorts (against a general group) and then is illustrated by a movie laden with blasphemy.
I wonder, in seriousness, do you feel comfortable with God’s name being blasphemed?
(I bet someone will say that the attitude/behavior/opinions/ of the ODM’s are blasphemy, oh no they wont, because then they will say I lied and made bad assumptions/judgements)
This site is so predictible. Please, I urge you, look in the mirror. I am going to take the advice of friends and leave for awhile. Ya’ll know where to find me.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:53 am
This is a really interesting point. Its been awhile since CRN.info nothing but fisking ODMs in article after article, instead the writing revolves around a general Christian worldview and yet, apparently John and Ken feel just as convicted as if they were being directly exposed.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Yeah, that general group is “Christians”. Notice CP says “I suppose we all have our moments”, including himself in that general group. Interesting that you felt convicted by the article.
I guess he should have used a mobster movie.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Wondering how you define ‘laden’ with ‘blasphemy’.
According to Screenit, there are three times in which ‘damn’ is used in conjunction with God’s name, along with one other use of his name with ‘Oh’ preceeding. Not having seen the movie, and assuming you have not, either, I’m not sure I would classify this as ‘laden’ or whether or not instances noted were done in a blasphemous manner…
Or - are you trying to change topics again to demonstrate your ability to sanctimoniously elevate personal convictions (re: movies) to the level of cross-cultural absolutes?
June 16th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Has anyone even considered that Sylvester Stallone is the antichrist?
Ya know, sometimes I hear Rod Serling’s voice i