What’s So Amazing About Grace?
I’ve been re-reading Philip Yancey’s book called What’s So Amazing About Grace? In the beginning he shares this story that a friend of his told him.
A prostitute came to me in wretched straits, homeless, sick, unable to buy food for her two-year-old daughter. Through sobs and tears she told me she had been renting out her daughter– two years old! —to men interested in kinky sex. She made more renting out her daughter for an hour than she could earn on her own in a night. She had to do it, she said, to support her own drug habit. I could hardly bear hearing her sordid story. For one thing it made me legally liable—I am required to report cases of child abuse. I had no idea what to say to this woman.
At last I asked if she had ever thought of going to a a church for help. I will never forget the look of pure, naïve shock that crossed her face. “Church!” She cried. “Why would I ever go there? I was already feeling terrible about myself. They’d just make me feel worse.”
Yancey continues,
“What struck me about my friend’s story is that prostitutes much like this woman fled toward Jesus, not away from him. The worse a person felt about herself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has the church lost that gift? Evidently the down-and-out, who flocked to Jesus when he lived on earth, no longer felt welcome among his followers. What has happened?
I’ve pondered this question for years. What has happened? How have we as the church lost our way? When did it become about being right instead of being refuge? When did it come about posting our credentials? When did it become about creating mocking names about offering children to Molech? When did it become Ok to mock and jeer those we disagree with or those we agree with who aren’t as mean as we want them to be? When did Jesus tell people to take their plank and shove it? How many people have walked away from the church because those who made it up forgot how dirty they truly were? Somehow, we’ve lost our way as a church. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in the blogosphere where people can hide behind any name they want and say whatever they want to say. Someone can call 15 year old girls painted whores of Sodom and write Tabloid titles because they don’t have to see the pain they are causing people. Somehow, the political party you belong to is more important than the family you belong to. If we believe we are criticizing children of God then we are family. If one is not criticizing God’s children then we’re violating all sorts of Scriptures not in the criticism but in the name calling. Lines are being drawn not about salvation but about what is worn on Sunday’s to church.
And the whole time people who’s lives are being blown apart just keep on dying. They just keep on living the wrong way because Darn It, I AM RIGHT!!! One camp picks apart a person in the other camp because he doesn’t go far enough down the Theological trail with them. They may agree that one goes to Heaven by believing on the work on Christ but down the path they disagree so it’s Ok to tear each other apart. I wonder, does this make you as sick as it does me?
Here’s what the Apostle Paul had to say about it,
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
I wonder how many people have been devoured by someone who “was right” and “justified.”
June 11th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Millions.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Joe,
Point the finger at this site, because you all are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
If you disbanded, it would be one less place that was spewing hate on the blogosphere towards brothers and sisters in Christ
Did I beat Rick to a post?
June 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Joe,
And the wonderful thing about this story is it is not about grace! Grace is not grace if we offer our broken approval and don’t tell the truth. Of course a sinner is going to feel lousy in the church if the law is preached and they come face to face with their sin. Of course, we should do so seasoned with salt. But allowing an unrepentent sinner to be locked in the chains of their sin without offering a way out is not love, nor is it grace. It is our broken attempt at empathy.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Funny, this site has been instrumental in helping me get over a lot of the anger toward God that I’d been letting fester for the better part of a decade…
But to each his own.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
John,
You’re gonna have to forgive me, if you don’t have a whole lot of credibility with me. I pray for you. I’m not really sure what to say to you tonight, so I’m just gonna leave it at that.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Joe,
You are forgiven. I can always use prayers, so thanks.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
I have noticed something over the last 2+ years which I will admit here after seeing PB’s comment on this thread. My heart is more like the emergent leaning brothers on this blog and my theology is more like the non-emergents.
And when a story of a broken sinner like Joe posted about brings a heartless and self righteous response it just breaks me. If there is anything that is not like Christ it is compassionless doctrine that refuses to see that the heart of the law is MERCY. That type of dry eyed witnessing is absolutely counter to the life of Christ.
The amount of pain and suffering that is the human experience should not be so easily dispatched in words of stone. Jesus was many times in the midst of these people and for some reason they loved Him.
PB - you have no idea what the grace of God is…no idea.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Here PB, something for you to read tonight so that God may open your heart to the plight of millions.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2006/08/i-will-have-mercy.html
June 11th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Joe - can you rescue my comment, I have a link on it for PB.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Done
June 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
“God may open your heart to the plight of millions.”
So who says those who care about proper doctrine don’t also have hearts open to the plight of millions.
A little self-righteous are we?
June 11th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Rick,
I actually think your position isn’t that different from a lot of the regulars here. I can’t say for sure, but I tend to think that the Lord will look upon poor theology a little bit better than a lack of compassion. Really, if we aren’t moved to compassion, I would say something isn’t right with our theology.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Phil - Yep, I think truth is important, but without compassion all we’ve got is algebra.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Since I’ve been a contributor I’ve received two emails with these same sentiments.
I guess sitting on the wall protecting those on the inside, shooting arrows at those outside is whole lot easier than making friends with those on the outside and inviting them in.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Joe - what is lost in the post is that this poor lady did go to the church. His name was at that moment - Phillip. The same person that many will speak to on the street, will receive wierd looks if they walk into the building where believers meet.
I have a feeling we have become an institution rather than the living, breathing, merciful, compasionate, body of Christ. Truth must be more than words, it must be a Person.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Rick,
I just think you are mad that I posted here before you….kidding…really.
Compassion is why we warn sinners. The only reason that I do understand what grace is is because someone told me that I had sinned and offended God. When I was a druggie, I didn’t want anything to do with church, because, like this prostitute, I knew that I would be judged. I knew somehow that I would have to give up my sin that I loved.
Though her story is painful and awful, the compassion that I have for her is to share the good news of Jesus. Why should she go to the church? Was Phillips friend a Christian? Was he speaking to her? Why didn’t he share the love and good news of Jesus? Why didn’t he turn her in to child’s services to save her child? Didn’t he possibly think that this could be the thing that would lead her to repentance?
I fully understand what grace is. But no one can understand the depth of the grace of God until they understand the awful depth of their sin. I see this prostitute as one who has a sorrow for the pain of her addiction, a sorrow for what she has to do to feed it, but not a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and trust in Jesus.
Joe, I agree with Yancy and you to a point. I agree that there are awful judgmental people in the church. I think that individual Christians ought to have the compassion of the Lord to share the good news with them. Otherwise, I contend that their empathy and my empathy for her and her story is empty and ineffective. The church has become mean and insensitive. I am glad that when I was a wretched sinner, I didn’t wander into a church. Someone cared enough about me to share the good news.
Yeah Rick, I understand about grace. I experience it every day. And I try to extend it, and not just in the church, but in the world.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Um, Did you read the quote in the OP? Yes, he reported her. What he shared with her isn’t given. But you do an excellent job of proving the point of the article. You assume that he didn’t do it right. Beautiful
June 11th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Here’s what I keep chewing on; people like this woman were drawn to Jesus and yet people like John say people like this woman are avoiding church because they want to hang onto their sin and somehow I want to condone her sin. Jesus wasn’t condoning their sin and yet they flocked to him. Maybe because Jesus did a much better job of not offering a list of legalistic rules.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Such a black and white way of looking at sin and grace. So limiting to God.
I’ll refrain from the logical ways this argument fails.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
What is go your way and sin no more?
Again Joe, I really think we are on the same page. I don’t know what he said and what he did, that is why I asked the question.
I agree that the church is broken. I agree we need to be much more like Jesus. I don’t think we do this through compromise with sin, however. I think the church can do much better at reflecting the love of Jesus to a hurting world, while still communicating the truth of Gods Word. We as individuals are called ambassadors, communicating the will of the King to a world that He died for.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
This post so beautifully illustrates at least part of the point I am getting at. Count how many juvenile names are used. Is that really honoring to God? Does that really further the Kingdom of God? Is God pleased when he reads that post?
June 11th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
By that do you mean the law of Moses? If she was a Jewish lady then that stands, but the law of God is Love. In the given story it sounds a lot like she knew what she did was wrong, so how can more law help? As a Christian I don’t attend church because they expect me to behave like a Jew when I am a gentile, or they create new rules and say that is law (Trinity, Faith Alone, Rapture, “Serving”, Tithing etc).
Now I certainly appreciate that the law saved you, but all people need different things. All the law in the world didn’t save me since I didn’t believe in it, but seeing the power of God first hand did!
June 11th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
“Point the finger at this site, because you all are part of the problem, not part of the solution.”
Joe, this would lump yourself in the group unless you are perfect or some how can be on this site, yet not be.
I disagree with many views that are expressed on this site, but I do not count all as negative. I am not an advocate of the emergent church, but I may glory in the wonder and splender of the grace of God shown on the Cross with those who disagree with me in theology, methodology and so on ( as long as the believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ found within scripture).
Yes, I believe we do at times nip at each others heels in the name of doctrine, but I subscribe to the verse “All have sin and come short of the glory of God.” (some come shorter than others which is proven by the life of my father! LOL)
“The church has become mean and insensitive.”
PB, I couln’t agree more. The mean aspect of the church comes from the self righteousness from the heart which uses God’s grace like the pharisees who picked up stones as Jesus wrote in the sand. The insensitivity has been derived from the looking onto men instead of the eternal value of the cross of Jesus Christ. We must look at people like this women in the story as those who have no hope and who have no life! We must show the Grace in our own lives by lifting up the Lord in all we do. Jesus said, “For if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself!”
June 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
By the way, my father in one of the commentors…Rick Frueh. In light of this, SHOW GRACE! lol
June 11th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
The law didn’t save me Dave!
The law has no power to save, it just has the power to condemn! The law is a mirror, and as we look at it, we realize that we are in big trouble.
Thats why God’s Grace is so very Good. We broke His law, we deserved death, but he sent Christ to pay our penalty for the great offense we committed against God. He fulfilled the law for us, he gave us His righteousness. Amazing grace!
June 11th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
hello,
The apple don’t fall far from the tree. You do your pops proud.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
It’s funny…like the Wizard of Oz. Scarecrow, “I just don’t like my apples with little green worms.” Sadly that is the same tree we fell from! LOL
“When I was a druggie, I didn’t want anything to do with church, because, like this prostitute, I knew that I would be judged. I knew somehow that I would have to give up my sin that I loved.”
I felt the same way as I struggled in those areas. The only different perception I had was that I wanted to be around the prostitute because we had 2 common bonds. 1- I loved sin and it loved me. 2- The church disgusted me. Being a PK, sometimes I saw the worst in Christians due to the fact of my eyes being priviledged behind closed doors. I felt hated and rejected!
June 11th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
I wrote the wrong thing sorry, replace “Save” with “Convict”.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
PB,
There would be no need for this site if you and yours closed your sites down. The only hate I see is from thoses sites. Honestly, how do you sleep at night?
Please go and seek God and be trained to be godly.
Good night John… sleep well.
iggy
June 11th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
John,
If only your actions and words were in sync… but since you actions over ride your very words all I see is the ministry of judgment and condemnation from you as others do…
We are given the ministry of reconciliation…
You seem to still be under the veil by your actions… 2 Cor 3 speaks of this veil…
Until you have it removed, you will never fully understand the ministry we have been given.
2 Cor 5: 17. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
If I see this condemnation and judgment from you, as well as many others see it, maybe you need look deeper into that mirror and gain more thankfulness from the depth you have been saved.
Once you do, then I believe you ministry that you claim is of “reconciliation” will grow becuase God is behind it.
iggy
June 12th, 2008 at 12:16 am
[...] is an important post from my friends at CRN.Info and Analysis concerning the grace of God. The important part, however, is not necessarily in the post proper, [...]
June 12th, 2008 at 2:50 am
Grace is truth and so in a strange and wonderful paradox the truth sets us free in the grace of God. We were so desperately lost in sin when God found us and forgave us simply because of His eternal grace.
I do not think there is anything that so offends God’s grace is when those who have received grace for sin take it upon themselves to uncover the sin of others, or to look down upon those still captured by its strength. Stating the obvious about sinners is is a counter productive exercize in self righteous and usually provides a mirror into that person’s heart.
June 12th, 2008 at 6:42 am
PB you really should just do your thing, and not bite lol…
I think the story is slightly staged,Yancy rightly says he was horrified at the sordid situation,then implies he will have to report her,but doesn’t let his own concerns stop him agreeing with her presumptions,Yancies presuming its true because it helps the direction of his book..
I think yeah maybe some will treat her like crap, but offline i think we might be pleasantly surprised at how Christians are..
But lets be honest i think most people would struggle with this scenario,and react exactly the same way he did, horrified and feel in a awkward situation…
Presumptions all round i’d say!
June 12th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Or he presumes it’s true because he’s lived similar situations.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:17 am
I think Yancy uses this example, because its more likely to solicit the response he wants from the group he most as a axe to grind with..Yancy as a presumption of fundie Christians,due to his own upbringing..
Lets be frank she let’s men sleep with her two year old child, for her drug problem..
Its not really a “want a scone” type of conversation , at the after service coffee is it…
June 12th, 2008 at 7:19 am
I have seen some Christians respond very well to hurt people, but others, no so well. I think that some people find it hard to be compassionate to people who they perceive have brought their situations upon themselves. I think that there’s always part of us that likes to hold a little bit of self-righteousness back so we can feel superior to others. It’s human nature to a large extent.
I think that a presentation about grace will always be scandalous to some degree. It’s offensive to us, because sometimes we really want to see retribution.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:19 am
Exactly Joe, he lets his experiance of being in a crappy racist church as a kid,govern how he sees all “fundies”
June 12th, 2008 at 7:22 am
[sic] haha thks my spelling sucks
June 12th, 2008 at 7:23 am
I think you’re reading that into it. It seems to me that his problem is with the whole church. Fundies and non fundies alike.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Actually, if you read more of Yancey’s books, he doesn’t seem to be bitter toward his upbringing. He seems like he realizes that some of the people he grew up around were well-intentioned but mistaken. I think a lot of us who grew up in churches come to that realization.
It’s not just fundamentalist churches, either. My wife grew up in a Lutheran church, and she never once heard anyone say anything about having a relationship with Christ. We are all products of our experiences, and we all have to be honest with how they affected us at some point.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:26 am
I’m not sure Joe, ive read a few of his books,and he references his childhood church a lot,and then seem’s to spend the rest of his life confirming their all like that..
Joe i think he uses a crap example, to prove a lot of Christians can be horid..
Truth is i think i’d struggle showing much grace with that example
June 12th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Mr. Martino,
One of the best posts I’ve read in a while. My wife read the book and it’s on our shelf, but I haven’t read it yet. I guess I have to add it to my ever-growing want-to-read list.
Rick,
You used the phrase, “…dry eyed witnessing…” in one of your comments. That, my friend, is a great word picture. Well said!
Shalom
June 12th, 2008 at 7:27 am
I think I’ve read all of his books. (as of 2 years ago) and I would agree with Phil. He talks well of his church in that he accepts the fact that is where they are at.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Haha we must of read them in different moods Phil…
Anyhow my main point, i think being online make the situation seem worse then it is,the internet as a habbit of letting the good and the very bad rise to the top
June 12th, 2008 at 7:31 am
And by the way i like Yancey’s,anyone who’s mention’s Vincent Gogh life story, is a friend of mine
June 12th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Yancey * before i get the dreaded [sic] lol
June 12th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Joe,
I agree with Nathanel’s assessment of the dry-eyed witnessing. When the law is used to bring conviction, we must give it with compassion and tears of sorrow, for we know when we were there next to that person. Then we are privileged to share grace, with tears of joy and thanksgiving.
Well done, though personal frustration did bleed through a little bit in the OP- Grace is extended.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:56 am
I’ve been guilty of said dry eyed witnessing, which is why it struck a chord.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:27 am
I’ve looked at all the comments coming down the thread and thought I would throw in my 2 cents as well.
I have 4 points:
1. the reference to the prostitute here is used for shock value to immediately grab your attention (as any good book does) and then lay out the premise for argument.
2. where were all the people that “‘flocked to Jesus” after his burial and resurrection. Only 120 (out of tens of 1000s) were in the upper room at the day of Pentecost. Remember, many followed Him for ulterior reasons which is why (in the last verse of John 2) it says, “Jesus knew all men to the core”.
Jesus also said that, “This is the condemnation: light is come into the world, but men prefer darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.” He was flat out rejected
By the Pharisee
By the “sinner” (prostitutes, lepers and tax collectors)
3. Doctrine and maintaining biblical teaching is important. Let’s remember that the NT reprimands believers as much for diluting/polluting the gospel truths as it does for their lack of love in some areas. Truth and love can go hand-in-hand. We should not abandon one to pursue another.
4. I too like the image conveyed of “dry-eyed witnessing” and ask God to help me in this area.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Paul,
You will not find many here who would advocate abandoning truth to embrace love. But the method in which I defend truth is often instrumental in negating or verifying the truth I am sharing.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Paul C.
Very powerful point. Jesus was rejected. Though people did pursue him, when he would teach many would run away or get angry. I think of the hard teaching in John about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. I think of speaking to the rich young ruler who idolized money. When the miracles were happening, it was all good. When He began speaking with authority, many of the people ran.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:58 am
PB,
I’m not saying you are guilty of this, but there are some who seem to gauge the effectiveness of their witness on whether or not people are fleeing.
The gospel does cause offense. It does divide light from darkness. But if I’m a jackass in my delivery, people are running from me, not from the message.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:06 am
It wasn’t the prostitutes, lepers, and tax collectors who put Jesus to death, though. At least not primarily. It was the religious insiders. The “sinners” were really powerless. These people were drawn to Jesus during his life.
I’m sure that some fell away because of fear after His death, but we aren’t really given the details. I don’t know that we can assume that the 120 in the Upper Room were the only ones that remained faithful to Christ.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Nathanel
Amen on that point. That is where the tears come in, speech seasoned with salt, etc. We must be passionate in our delivery, but driven by a compassion that says that the message is more important than my pride or my appearance, so deliver the message the best way you can so the people can hear it and respond.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Josephus estimates that hundreds of thousands of Christians were extant in Jerusalem in 67 A.D., choosing to flee the city before the Roman seige. Other scholarly documents from the time estimate that a significant majority of northern Israel had converted, as well, fleeing to Pella with those Christians from Jerusalem.
We’re talking about a period of 6-7 weeks after the resurrection, in the city of Jerusalem. Most of Jesus’ following was in the Galilee region - about a 3-5 day walk, during the barley harvest. Between Passover and Pentecost, non-Judean Jews returned to their farms to bring in the first harvest (barley) and to prepare for the second (wheat), returning to Jerusalem for the celebration of the wheat harvest (Pentecost).
Also, the word used for the 120 ‘believers’ (adelphos) likely refers specifically to Greek God-fearers who had come to believe in Jesus (see the textual note in the NIV and other versions), and not all believers in Jesus.
I would also note that the events of Pentecost most likely took place at the Temple (from the context, the south steps) and not in the Upper Room, with the Spirit in fire coming out of the Temple (in reverse of Ezekiel’s vision of the Spirit of the Lord entering the temple in fire - and, ‘coincidentally’ is the passage recited in the Temple on the mornings of Shavu’ot -Pentecost - by those worshiping there)
In Jewish literature, the Temple is often referred to as “the House”, and if you read the end of Luke’s narrative prior to Acts, you see:
And then in Acts:
This is the only place in Jerusalem that could accommodate the numbers to whom the disciples preached, and it is the place where Jews and God-fearing Gentiles from all nations would be gathered, and it is also the only place with enough water to baptize 3,000 in the city (Archaeologists have uncovered 34-36 miqveh, pools for ceremonial washing at the South Steps of the Temple).
To summarize, to take from the narrative that Jesus’ message had been abandoned after his death and resurrection is probably not a very good supposition…
June 12th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Yawwwwn,
“You guys should shut down, you guys should shut down, you guys should…”
whine. whine. whine.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Phil - I wasn’t saying that the lepers/prostitutes put Him to death. Of course, it was a religious conspiracy by those who were threatened by His message.
What I’m saying is that Christ was equally rejected by all: this is the nature of man.
Some will reject for religious reasons. Others will reject -after getting a handout (mouthful of fish and bread, witnessing miracles, healing). But Christ was largely rejected by all.
The reason he is so “accepted” today (ie: the nonsense about “People really love Jesus - they just can’t stand the church”) is because He’s not here to demand discipleship as He did 2000 years ago. We can make a Jesus of our design and serve it instead.
Remember, when Jesus asked, “Who do men say that I am?” that the response was, “John the Baptist, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
All of these men were absolutely HATED in their time.
Today we quote them (along with Paul - who was also rejected) because we can do so comfortably from a distance and pick whatever we like from what they said.
But the fact remains: men prefer darkness to light.
This is why Jesus said only a few will be saved in the end. God help us.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Amen, Paul C. Amen.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Are you referring to Matthew 24? I would say a good case can be made that Jesus is referring specifically to the Fall of Jerusalem when He is talking about the “love of many growing cold”. If you look back at that time, persecution did indeed increase prior to this event.
In more modern times, the trend has actually been that the Church has grown more when it is persecuted.
It’s been my experience that Christians like to use this verse as an excuse for “weeding out” people or for not growing. I’m not convinced that there will be a great end-times apostacy.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Chris L.,
As always, thank you for doing the research I was too lazy to do.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Chris L said:
Chris, I am not saying that at all. The point is that after Jesus’ death, even His own inner circle had lost hope - how much more the masses who followed Him at a distance?
You refer to AD67 - years after the church had “filled Jerusalem with their doctrine”. This bears no correlation to my argument that the majority of those who listened to Jesus when He was alive abandoned following His disciples after His death and resurrection.
By looking at scripture, you can’t get around the fact Jesus was largely rejected by the religious and the outwardly sinful. Sure, not all, but most.
Just as you have Mary Magdelene and Levi on the “sinner” side, you also have Nicodemus and Paul on the “Pharisee” side. This shows the power of Christ to save all men - but it also demonstrates the proclivity all men have to reject Him - except God reveals it to your heart.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:39 am
No, I’m referring to Jesus comments in Matthew where he talks about the confined and narrow gate. Also, there is a time when His disciples ask: “Are there only a few that be saved?”
Jesus responds: “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”
I think a gross apostasy at the end of this age is a scriptural fact borne out in several areas, but not what I’m referring to in my comments. Won’t try to convince you of that today:)
June 12th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Sorry about my coding - first time trying… feel free to fix.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:41 am
“It wasn’t the prostitutes, lepers, and tax collectors who put Jesus to death, though. At least not primarily. It was the religious insiders. The “sinners” were really powerless. These people were drawn to Jesus during his life.”
Phil, It was God the Father who had the sole authority on the death of His Son. “It pleased Him to bruise Him”
Yes, the pharisees were the main uprisers, but I am sure that tax collecter and prostitutes were standing right behind them, and in one accord, yelling Crucify Him!
You see, that is the main point of reference when we look at the crucifixion concerning ourselves. We must look and see that we were all, by the work of our sin, screaming in one accord, crucify him. Every man that has walked upon this earth has one common denominator with every other man and that is the penalty for rejecting and sinning against the righteous law of almighty God. This yoke is upon all of us, yet the work of Jesus takes this yoke from us. Can we not, in one accord now, take this story as a complex and simple example of the human heart and give her the gospel in humility realizing we were, at a point, just like her.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:45 am
I would suggest that this isn’t ‘nonsense’ at all, but rather a shorthand summary of Jesus’ message being at odds with what is demonstrated in the lives of his followers. All too often, the barrier is not the message, but the followers who claim the message but don’t demonstrate it all that well…
I still suggest there’s little support for widespread abandonment, particularly after the witness and message of his resurrection was conveyed.
Certainly they were disheartened after his death, and none understood that he would come back to life (heck, even Satan didn’t know that). Realize that his resurrection occurred on the last day of the Pentecost festival (on the Feast of First-Fruits), and that the message of his resurrection could not really be reliably disseminated until the next time everyone came to Jerusalem (Pentecost - 7 weeks later).
Logistically, it’s not like you could post a message about the resurrection on the ‘net the next day. Everyone was leaving Jerusalem for home (likely Sunday night/Monday morning) - for some, a week or more journey. Additionally, during the period of time between Passover and Pentecost, you have Jesus appearing to many - proving his resurrection.
Was there widespread persecution in Israel - certainly, though nothing like what they would experience from Rome over the next couple of centuries. To suggest vast abandonment from the narrative, though, and then attribute it to the message of the gospel is weak, at best…
June 12th, 2008 at 9:48 am
That’s the whole point of the original article. There’s not one of us who is without sin, and no one who can afford to be self-righteous. Personally, I know that it is easy to slip into self-righteousness when I start focusing on the sins of others. There is just something in us that loves thinking we are better than others.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“Yawwwwn,
‘You guys should shut down, you guys should shut down, you guys should…’
whine. whine. whine.”
Dear brother Confessor Clair we “ODMs” are with ya, cuz we feel the same way about the about this site as its whining about so-called “persecution.”
June 12th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I thought the point of this article was grace, and the lack thereof in the bloggosphere and institutional church.
Was it satire? Because yall know I don’t get satire.
June 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am
i’m blinded by how far my eyes just rolled back into my skull
June 12th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Josephus estimates of hundreds of thousands of Christians in 67 A.D, is surely a result of Pentecost,and not an indication of how many followers were around in Christ time??
The scripture seems to imply that many disciples left when
1) Jesus spoke about blood and meat
2) Where were these disciples when Jesus was paraded to the crowd by Pilate
3) That he died,as you say they wern’t expecting the resurrection
4) References to disciples fearful situation holed up in a attic room
5) Scripture thats says they would flee
6) Peters demeanor dening Jesus,coming so closely after he had cut the ear off a solder,seems to point that he had lost all hope
The scripture just seems to pain a much more gloomier picture then they were off farming..
June 12th, 2008 at 11:27 am
blood and bread hahaha im a heritic i admit it *
June 12th, 2008 at 11:36 am
I’m going to repost that i’m tired sorry,i think the scripture lends it self better to Paul C post
…………………………………………………………………………….
Josephus estimates of hundreds of thousands of Christians in 67 A.D, is surely a result of Pentecost,and not an indication of how many followers were around in Christ time??
The scripture seems to imply that many disciples left when
1) Jesus spoke about wine and bread
2) Where were these disciples when Jesus was paraded to the crowd by Pilate
3) That he died,as you say they wern’t expecting the resurrection
4) References to disciples fearful situation holed up in a attic room
5) Scripture thats says they would flee
6) Peters demeanor dening Jesus,coming so closely after he had cut the ear off a solder,seems to point that he had lost all hope
The scripture just seems to paint a much more gloomier picture then they were off farming..
June 12th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I find the whole story disturbing on many levels not even addressed. There are many characters in the story.
(1) The Christian
(2) The prostitute
(3) The Child
(4) The pedophiles.
I’m thinking out loud here so my thoughts won’t be that neatly arranged. My initial gut reaction is the sympathy is always, ALWAYS to the poor prostitute. The prostitute is the hero and the mean ole Christian is the villain. That is my gut perception which may not be the case. It appears that people are not concerned with the crime at all. They appear to totally separate the sinner from the sin and seem to totally ignore the fact that horrendous things are taking place here. Chronologically, this woman needs to be turned in, arrested, and her child removed from her. Biblically, I think a strong case can be made that the child is the only innocent here and should be the central concern, not the woman. After her arrest and the child is safe, then chronologically, the Christian involved should look after her eternal soul. Third, these pedophiles need to be hunted down like the vermin they are, convicted and locked away in some small hell hole somewhere. Then the Christian involved should also minister to them and share the Gospel if possible. (And no, these are not two incongruent concepts).
They themselves have probably been abused and are perpetuating a vicious cycle. They ARE to be pitied. They are to be loved, but they should not be coddled and we should not think twice about getting them off the street and their children away from them. God loves these people. He died for them just like He did for you and me. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. But the God of Mercy is also the God of Justice and He has established and sanctioned the state to be one of His arms of Justice. But again I get the impression (however wrong) that these heinous crimes are to just be sluffed over. The child is an incidental. This woman hates the church. Oh my! Can’t have that!
On one level who cares what this woman’s perception of the Church is? She doesn’t like me. Boo Hoo! Get that child out of there. Then I can visit her in prison, show her the love of Christ and hopefully see her saved.
I’m just not seeing this
June 12th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
John,
Well, as Joe already pointed out, the pastor did call the authorities.
Of course no one here is defending child abuse. That’s missing the whole point of the article.
It’s threads like these back up my premise that there are lot things Christians but really don’t mean.
We say we are all totally depraved, but it sure seems like we think some are more totally depraved than others.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
John - I agree with you here.
Again, just another sad case of, “I have no problem with Jesus - it’s the church and the people I just can’t stand!”
What a convenient statement, no?
Yet, to my point earlier, when Jesus was around in the flesh, guess what they said, “I have no problem with Moses - it’s this Jesus I just can’t stand.”
And guess what they said in the days of Moses? Need I go on?
The point is, this whole post is aimed at one person: Ingrid (something Joe can’t seem to get over). So, he picks as outrageous a situation he can find and then tries to make a point surrounding the prostitute being afraid of church.
People hated Paul: “His bodily presence is weak and the way he speaks and his delivery is of no account!” (2 Cor 10:10).
June 12th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
We don’t need to give people excuse to hate us because of arrogance or pride on our part - the truth of the gospel seems reason for dislike enough.
But the beautiful thing is the power of God to save the worst of sinners in spite of their sin. So no one is beyond His reach.
I just think this post is nothing more than a well-disguised hit post of a horse that was beaten to death last month (specifically referencing that little 15 yr old girl)
June 12th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
“We say we are all totally depraved, but it sure seems like we think some are more totally depraved than others”
Phil, I couldn’t agree more! It seems as though Hughes, in the previous comment, is trying to seperate sinners. Yes, that women should be stopped in what crimes she is committing, yet the same grace shown to the little girl should be also shown to the mother. We must always keep in mind, especially in the light of eternity, that all have sin and that, before coming to Christ, we are all dead in trespasses! In the human mind we take different sins and seperate them as more damning then others…this is not so. Both the women and the child are of this world and both need the grace of our Lord Jesus.
There are no set Chronological orders in the great commission! Jesus said, Go and make disciples! He didn’t say, Make sure you arrest them and lock them in a hell hole…you know why…THEY ARE ALREADY THERE! That comment was that of the emotional flesh!
June 12th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Phil,
I understand the intent of the article was do discuss the lost world’s perception of the Church. My point is that this should take second seat in some instances (like this one) and make the illustration sort of irrelevant in the big picture.
Nothing to do with salvation. One sin makes one guilty of all in this regard. However, are you intimating that there is no gradiation of sin? That in the temporal some sins are not worse than others? Is my stealing a pen from work the same as having sex with a 2 year old in things temporal? Both convict a man before God and make him in need of a Savior, but does not even God designate levels of punishment in eternity?
Again, why the angst for the prostitute’s concept of the Church in light of the welfare of this child? Priorities, man, priorities.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Apples and oranges, Ken. We could care less if you shut down. We’re just asking you to act like Christians in your writing instead of just claiming the title without the accompanying action and accountability.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
I agree and said so.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
I don’t think some are getting the reason why this women dislikes the church.
Gandi- “I would have been a Christian if it weren’t for Christians”
June 12th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Andy,
As I read it, we were dealing with the post-resurrection period:
All six of these are pre-resurrection…
June 12th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Tell that to the little girl when she’s 10. Or better yet I’ll minister to the gunman while he’s robbing you at the service station since there is no chronological order to these things.
Please think these things through to their logical conclusion. Yeah, let’s not lock up any criminals. They’re ALREADY there!
June 12th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Well, I don’t think there’s any Biblical basis for different levels of punishment. That sounds more like Dante’s doing.
But anyway, the point isn’t minimizing the sin of the prostitute, however heinous it might be. The thing is that church’s mission is to be Christ on the earth, and I don’t see Christ once turning away a repentant sinner.
I think sometimes we forget how socially unacceptable the people were that Jesus hung out with. Tax collecters weren’t just unliked because they took money from people - they were basically traitors to the Jewish people. They had sided with the Roman oppressors. I’m sure the disgust you and I feel when reading about this prostitute is similar to the disgust the Jewish people felt when they saw Jesus eating with a tax collecter.
Of course we need to sometimes intervene and stop people from hurting themselves and others. I just think that something is wrong when the church becomes the last place someone turns to for help.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Hughes, You are converging the physical and the eternal. Is I stated before, you are commenting with personal emotion. When I said ” They are already there,” I was talking about there eternal state!
By all means, minister to the guman…he needs Jesus as much as you or I!
“Yeah, let’s not lock up any criminals. They’re already there.” In the light of eternity you are right! Thank you for that agreement!
June 12th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
We must protect the little girl, of course. But would it alter our view of the mother if we knew she was raped by her stepfather since she was four, and was introduced to drugs by her mother at 11?
June 12th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Now I’m a little confused/befuzzled - it seems, from this statement, that social welfare is being held higher than spiritual welfare (which is not the norm in Reformed criticisms of Evangelical/Emerging churches)…
As the OP noted, the woman was being reported to the authorities (which addresses the physical welfare of the child), and the Yancey anecdote primarily dealt with the woman, because she was the only one of the two communicating with him.
I guess I didn’t read it that way (nor was she specifically named). While one quote was a nod to her “painted whores” jibe about Miley Cyrus, there were other examples, both specific and general, contained in the article…
Exactly.
Part of the problem is that if you’re not part of the church, you’re not part of the bride. The sentiment of the statements (and the attitude) isn’t an indictment about the fallenness of the members of the church, but rather the self-righteousness that says to the sinner “we don’t really want you here until you’re sanctified” between the lines.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
“But anyway, the point isn’t minimizing the sin of the prostitute, however heinous it might be. The thing is that church’s mission is to be Christ on the earth”
Phil- EXACTLY…you are my pastor for this post, but only this post. LOL
June 12th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Chris i read it that Paul was talking about the period just before the cross and up to Pentecost..
Either way his arguement that people left Jesus for various reasons, not least their “ulterior reasons” were ruined by His words & then His death, as the ring of truth about it..
June 12th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Um, No. This post isn’t aimed at Ingrid at all. Nice try though Paul. I hardly ever write posts that have anything to do with Ingrid or Ken for that matter. This post is about the church not looking a whole lot like Christ. Maybe you got your Joe’s mixed up but can you go through the comments and show me where I’ve attacked Ingrid? Someday I’m gonna write about her calling sex a burden but that day isn’t this day. Thank you for so eloquently proving the point of this post. The church is full of people who can not only judge actions they know motives (as you must know mine in order to make such an assanine statement).
June 12th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
How about the Christian woman in Chicago whose daughter was brutally raped and murdered, and when they caught theman and sentenced him to death she began writing him in prison and months later started visiting him and he became a believer.
His life was transformed in prison and this lady continues to treat him like a son. That my friends in Jesus Christ in action!
June 12th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
At the risk of self-promotion, I’m going to post a link back to my own blog. I’ll try not to make a habit of it.
But, Chris, your comment, “…the self-righteousness that says to the sinner ‘we don’t really want you here until you’re sanctified…’” reminded me of this post from last year.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Joe - I was simply referring to the OP…
I agree, there is something wrong with the church as well and that it is a poor reflection of who Christ is.
Regarding Ingrid, I meant these statements:
- “When did it become about creating mocking names about offering children to Molech? ”
- “Someone can call 15 year old girls painted whores of Sodom and write Tabloid titles because they don’t have to see the pain they are causing people. ”
We can throw stones at people without naming them outright. BTW, I’m not defending her at all, just making a statement as I sift through the post. If I’m wrong that these statements were pointed at a person, then I stand corrected.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
You are forgiven
June 12th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Paul,
FYI:
I don’t think this one is all that limited to Ingrid… I’ve seen the Molech card pulled out on numerous sites (even against Challies last year for writing about why he doesn’t home-school his kids…)
June 12th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Rick, re-read my comments. I covered that scenario and agree. The woman was probably abused herself. Her background story would and should affect the compassion of a caring Christian, but she would deserve love no matter what her story. God came to save sinners, but the responses here only strengthen my observation that certain Christian mindsets greatly, if not totally, ignore the temporal consequences of sin, both to the sinner and the victims of that sin. But, why should any Christian hesitate one second in turning this woman over to the authorities?
Oh, poor me. I have to help this child because now I’m legally liable if I don’t. Wow.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Joe what would you do if she came into your church and spilt this out??
Maybe you guys are just closer to God then i am, because i’d struggle like hell not judging that situation..
I’m not saying i wouldn’t try to help,my all working life as been in care work, and i like to think i’m pretty compassionate but wowee..
June 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
John,
Wow. You seriously are digging deep to try and find a reason to not like this excerpt.
He reported her. What else should have he done? Shot her on the spot?
June 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Uhm. Even when it’s fully justified, I don’t find any pleasure in involving civil authorities. I read it more as a “tying my hands in helping the woman and her child”, not a “I guess I have to help this child now… what a pain”. Most counselors I know dislike involving the authorities, not because they shouldn’t be involved, but more because - all too often - they tend to muck things up more than they fix them…
June 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Andy - you’ve never lived in New York City have you?
June 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Andy,
That’s a great question. I’ve done a lot of counseling in the church setting and I am currently studying to be a licensed counselor. I like you, would probably struggle to not judge. It would be extremely difficult for me, I am sure.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I’ve seen just as bad, and handled it worse…
June 12th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I was an accociate pastor in Brooklyn and we had everyone come. Prostitutes, transvestites, gays, felons, homeless, poor, smelly, and with every degree of immodest and raggy dress.
If you didn’t love sinners, you would not have liked that church (600 on Sunday morning)
June 12th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Rick trust me i’m not naive,two of my best friends are social workers and have told me as worse as this story (within the bounds of legality)..
I just know i would try to be as compassionate as possible,but the all story goes against so many unwritten rules i.e Mothers,Protection,Love etc…
I have been to NY i hated it lol
June 12th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Phil,
Re: shooting the woman
It’s actually more like this:
Although she deserved being shot, it was a sign of the life of Christ, that I did not and only reported her.
Praise me and the good news of my own righteousness.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Thats unfair Rick i am a sinner,i’m not mr odm i live in the real world,ive worked with some of the people you mentioned,and truly believe i showed love to their plight,i hope i did !!
I’m just not kidding myself ,that it would be the natural thing to not judge this situation..
I got saved due to NY , Nicky Cruz book lol
I had a gf in Brooklyn and stayed there for a bit,she use to tell me everyone had a gun on the subway, and scare me witless that they would find me on the Parkway rd nice girl lol
June 12th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Andy - I was not refering to you. Sorry.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
You still in NY Rick you ever go to time square church??