The Calvinist Bible
Dave Muller from Down Under has ‘discovered’ a new Bible translation: The Calvinist Bible:
Sick of explaining to your unelect friends how the bible writers held the same systematic theology of today, only it was lost before the reformation? Ever wondered how better to read God’s word as He intended it to be in full doctrine glory? Then the CALVINIST Bible was predestined for you!
It’s a rather funny couple of posts, even for Calvinist Christians who don’t like being lumped in with hypers… Some excerpts from this new translation:
For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever is called to believeth in him should not perish, but be raptured in the end.
(Joh 3:16)
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely be condemned to Hell and all man will be guilty of your sin. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet to submit to him (for Adam did not yet know that the LORD had predestined his wife to eat of the tree).
(Gen 2:16-18)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the elect! (John 1:29)
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (translators note: God predestined them to act as if resisting (since no-one can actually resist God) as part of His purposeful plan of confusion to confound those who can never accept Him anyway) (Acts 7:51)
You’ve gotta wonder if Rick Frueh helped out with the translation (or if he’s still got some additional verses held back)!
June 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am
II Pet.2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who secretly shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who never bought them.
Matt.23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent to you, I never wanted to gather your children as hen gathers chickens under her wings, and so I never drew you.
Lk.2:10-11 - And the angel said unto them, You better fear! behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be for a very, very, very small group of people. For unto those miniscule number of people is born this day a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:41 am
In fairness, Chris L., someone wants us to post the Arminian Bible. I told them just read your regular Bible and you are reading the Arminian Bible.
June 1st, 2008 at 6:29 pm
1 John 2:2 - He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ony for ours, but also for those of the elect outside of our own little group of the Elect here.
June 1st, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Here’s some more to add to the Calvanist Bible…
Rom.8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are THE CALLED according to his purpose. For whom He FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also CALLED; whom He CALLED, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
… Or maybe not. That’s to close to the original. Might actually lend support to a Calvanistic understanding of scripture!
June 1st, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Rom.5:18 - Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon a few men unto justification of life.
Rom.10:13 - For when the elect shall call upon the name of the Lord they shal be saved.
II Thess.2:11 - And for this cause God doesn’t need to send them strong delusion because they already believe a lie and cannot believe the truth because God doesn’t want them to.
And all God’s people said…
June 1st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I think I am predestined to get this bible, strangly I feel as if there is just no way to resist this. In fact I think many people I talk to seem to feel this way.
iggy
June 1st, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Or it just shows that a lot folks misunderstand the word “predestined”…
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 am
Hi JD, I did actually do one for the opposite view too so it was more meant for fun that serious doctrine examination
e.g.
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:17 am
See, Dave, now you’re changing the Word!
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 am
I’d pretty much sworn off commenting here (CRN.Info), but just can’t resist (”irresistible comment”) wondering out loud: If you could ask someone in hell how THEY feel about election/predestination, would they argue “I don’t believe God would violate my ‘free will’ like that!” versus “I would give anything for God to have chosen me.”
But then, since it’s their own fault (aka free will) I guess it doesn’t matter.
Was this supposed to be *satire*, because I thought all of the examples made quite a bit of sense? I thought Rick’s rendering of Luke 2 was pretty accurate.
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:26 am
I may not be getting the point you are trying to make but if someone is in hell because God didn’t predestine them then that isn’t really their fault.
Honestly this is the point of predestination that I can never really get my mind around. Maybe I just to get it????
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:27 am
Maybe I just *to* get it????
*don’t*
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:39 am
I just do not see how one that is “predestined” by the Calvinist definition can freely love God.
Also, I just do not see Irenaeus and the other church fathers teaching this type of predestination either.
Not to mention that God is free to do what He wills, but to punish someone for the evil He predestined, seems more like the precocious Allah…
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
Chris said: “…if someone is in hell because God didn’t predestine them then that isn’t really their fault.” Chris, you are correct. Hell is what we ALL deserve. (Non-Calvinists even love to say that one)
My “their fault” comment was tongue-in-cheek, aka *satire*.
Iggy: I “freely love God” because I am absolutely amazed that He would love me with a saving love and chose me for salvation–based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I’ve done.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Keith - you’re a smart guy. Please tell me that you a) understand; and b) can apply the difference between ’satire’ and ’sarcasm’.
Please?
(Last week, as PB was saying “I understand” in the same post as demonstrating “I don’t understand”, I was thinking to myself “If Keith were here, he might not like what was written, but he would at least understand the parallel being drawn and the actual satire involved…”)
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 am
Keith,
That is my point, but you cannot freely love if you are made that way and have had not choice to love… you are nothing more than a love robot doing what you were made to do and there is no “freely” about it.
that is the nuance that you miss.
We loved because He first loved us, we respond to the love out of our free will to choose to love or not.
One cannot freely respond if they have no choice…
I see that predestination is just not rightly defined in Calvinism and in relation to what scripture lays out.
But, then I may be predestined to believe that and have no choice but to believe my delusion… = )
Yet, every day I freely choose to love and serve God and depend on Him alone for not only my salvation, but just to get through another day sometimes.
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:29 am
I want to openly admit that I would believe in TULIP (any or all) if the Bible taught them, but since they do not, I must bow to Sola Scriptura!!
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:37 am
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself some things, the elect, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col 1:19-20)
(Sorry, but I can’t bring myself to use the KJV…)
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:37 am
Chris L: My apologies. My label of *satire* was actually, thinly veiled *sarcasm*. Responding to your questions: (a) Yes, I understand (b) I mis-applied on purpose only because of the use of the *satire* label being applied here over the past couple of weeks. (I like stirring the pot. What can I say?)
My comment was based on the fact that I hear many people using the line that (paraphrased) “if someone goes to hell, it’s their own fault. God gave them the opportunity to believe. They made the choice not to.”
===
Iggy: I understand your point, but I still contend that those in hell would give their eyeteeth to have had their “will” violated. I understand it’s a pretty bad place.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:44 am
“I understand it’s a pretty bad place.”
If it exists at all.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
This is an interesting statement to me. Not that it doctrine or anything, but have you read The Great Divorce. I think the thing that strikes me the most about Lewis’ thesis is that those in hell just can’t submit to Christ. Their refusal to die to themselves is what keeps them in hell.
I think the reason it rings so true is because it hits on the same paradoxical truths that Christ talked about. Only those willing to lose their life will find it. So, it’s not that God violates our wills, He wants us to surrender them to Him.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 am
Keith,
Do you believe that there are those elect that do not love God? Because of your note to Iggy: I “freely love God” because I am absolutely amazed that He would love me with a saving love and chose me for salvation–based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I’ve done.
And do you put “freely” in quotes because you do not truly believe that you are free to love/not love, or is it because non-calvinists use the word “free”? Honest inquiry here…
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:11 am
That last comment from Chris L was really from me. Sorry! He was still logged in to my computer under his name! Aaaargh!
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:18 am
“That last comment from Chris L was really from me.”
Yes, I had noticed the intellectual elevation.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:22 am
Hardly…he has to dumb alot of things down for me. But he is kind and would deny that fact!
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:40 am
I would deny that - Zan is far more mature and level-headed than I am, and asks much better questions than I do…
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:42 am
“Zan is far more mature and level-headed than I am, and asks much better questions than I do…”
Tell us something we haven’t already concluded.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:43 am
Zan (alias Chris L–or is it the other way around): I enclosed the word free in quotes because I was quoting Iggy- it was his word. I believe there are those who are elect that do not YET love God…
Phil Miller: No, I have not read The Great Divorce. I aplogize, but I’m not understanding your comment. That’s OK…I only jumped into the conversation to inject my sarcasm– see Chris L, I can use the word correctly 8^)>
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Phil, you said: “This is an interesting statement to me. Not that it doctrine or anything, but have you read The Great Divorce. I think the thing that strikes me the most about Lewis’ thesis is that those in hell just can’t submit to Christ. Their refusal to die to themselves is what keeps them in hell.”
And in my head I said: Great point.
I have to agree with this translation:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the elect! (John 1:29)
Of course, the “elect” is all of Creation. Just a minor point, right?
peace,
Chad
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
11″Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12″Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their [already dead] heart, so that they who cannot believe because they are not the elect and have not been regenerated]
willcan not believe and be saved.June 2nd, 2008 at 11:33 am
Keith,
you: I believe there are those who are elect that do not YET love God…
So, am I to assume that they will not die until they have come to love God? How much love? How much do they have to know?
Here is another question: If God gave the law to all people, because sin is dead without the law, then why didn’t he give grace to all, also?
Chris…;)
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:34 am
by *give*, I mean *offer*, Rick, so don’t accuse me of Universalism, too!
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
Zan - you are entrenched and unmoveable fundamentalist!!
God
grace. Who knew??
Universalism grace offers this verse:
For by grace are you saved without faith.
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
Zan: Before responding to your question, may I ask you: Are you asking because you sincerely want to know what I think or are you simply baiting the conversation in order to publicly shoot holes in my response? I assume you have at least some knowledge of “reformed doctrine” regarding predestination/election, and therefore already know the answer to you question. Would my personal “slant” offer any more clarity?
I don’t mind answering your question, but if you really want to know, I’m at work and a detailed response (which again, i don’t believe would change much for either of us) is not possible at the moment. Also, some of the folks hanging around here seem to do so only for the purpose of looking for posts to refute (gotta put that seminary education to good use). I’d be glad to dialog with you in more detail privately. (keithwhitfield[at]cox[dot]net) That’s OK if you prefer not. No hard feelings here. And before considering jumping into a lengthy conversation, I would ask that you honestly determine whether a dialog between us would be beneficial. I can be pretty
thick, ur uh,hard-headed, ummm…stubborn (i.e. obtuse). 8^)>June 2nd, 2008 at 11:52 am
No, Keith, I do not really want to know!
Brother…
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Keith,
I really doubt this, as I see that the condition for hell is that the soul is so deluded and seperated from God already, they already chose not to serve God thus receive their “reward” which is death.
I see that the torment (if there is to be that) will be separated, without any part remembering or understanding that God exists. It is utter and complete godlessness…. God has completely brought those saved to Life Eternal and those without Jesus to Eternal Death…
Again, not even the remembrance of God… other than the god that they served while still alive… without any pleasure of good from it.
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Rick said: Universalism grace offers this verse:
For by grace are you saved without faith.
That is not the case at all. AlthoughI can see why you would assume such a thing, however badly it misses.
peace,
Chad
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Keith,
Still love ya man… you are cool in my book.
I am not anti Calvinist in the sense that I hate the Calvinist. I just see too many shortcomings in Calvin’s Theology. I read more from John the Apostles line of theology like Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus (who i am currently reading on his end times theology which is fascinating!) and Hippolytus who was a disciple of Irenaeus (who wrote even more end times things)
In this I have not come across anything close to Calvinism, in fact quite the opposite as Irenaeus states plainly man had a will to choose and in fact must choose and live life daily like that.
Being that Calvin came much later, and that John the Apostle was still alive (though very old) when Irenaeus was, I think the pure line of the Apostle and his teaching is a better choice to follow.
“Scripture and the Apostle’s teachings” was a good thing we seemed to have lost somewhere along the way…
Now I do not equate the extra biblical writing with scripture as these men did nto even do that of themselves… but I see them as powerful commentarians on our faith and the teachings from scripture in their purer form.
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Keith (To Zan):
I can tell you, Keith, that as folks go, Zan has less pretense in her than anyone else I know. Typically, if she asks a question, she really wants to understand your answer.
I, on the other hand, am much worse at listening/asking than her…
June 2nd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Chad,
I guess I would never place bounds on God to save who He wants to save - even if they never heard the gospel (as all of those prior to 33 A.D.).
At the same time, I believe Jesus’ words about I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me does imply something literal rather than elliptical (i.e. that you come through him after death even if you never knew him in life). I think this becomes unhealthy when the focus becomes “know Jesus so you go to heaven when you die” rather than “see what God did for you, so lovingly live in service to Him in response to the grace shown to you”.
I think, though, without its exclusivist nature, the gospel loses its meaning, particularly in a postmodern society.
June 2nd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Iggy: You stated: …I do not equate the extra biblical writing with scriptureWe agree.
You also mentioned (in your last comment) Calvin, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and some guy named Hippopotamus…I’ve heard of a couple of them. I own Calvin’s commentary on John (used it a little for some Sunday School lessons) and Institutes…”, but have never read it/them. I use the term “calvinist” because I figure it’s a simple way of identifying my beliefs; if there’s a better or less offensive term, give it to me–I’ll use it. Other than that, I have come to /continue to work through my belief that God elects and saves some while passing over others from (mostly) Scripture and conversations with others of like mind. I really do see it in Scripture–from Genesis to Revelation.
I don’t need a long answer here. Do you believe Jesus was alluding to a real place in Luke 16:19ff? A “yes” or “no” will suffice. Just curious.
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Yes.
Oh, you mean Iggy. Sorry.
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Keith,
Calvin’s institutes is thick and has many good things in them… but alas poor matey, He is also off on some things.
I have ploughed through them and started to take an online (free) course on Institutes, but really found it not that interesting… Sorry…
But having read them (though superficially I admit) I was not brought to my knees and persuaded to change my theology, though I now understand Calvin and Calvinists a bit better.
It seems most Calvinists do not even know what Calvin taught… yet, still seem to identify themselves as that… which is strange to me.
I mean I don’t call myself a Irenaeus-ist… maybe it was just not that catchy.
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Keith,
A place? Yes and no…
In one dimension it may be referred to as a place…
It is the word Hades, which in Greek thought is the realm of the unseen… it is not necessarily a “place” but an existence outside of this dimension.
Yet, I still see to say that man exists in some immortal state contradicts scripture when it states that Jesus is the “only immortal” (1 Tim 6:16) and we have yet to be clothed in immortality
So was Jesus telling us a “literal” story in parable form? Was there a literal prodigal son? Will we be literal “sheep and goats”?
Again, yes or no is not sufficient of an answer. I go back an forth as to if man exists in some form of “spirit” form outside the body. I see that the point is the irony that Jesus will raise from the dead and is explaining that even if someone came back, people will still not believe.
To me, to take a “literal hell” out of a parable is not sufficient evidence.
On a personal and experiential level I believe that people exist in another form and dimension… I see this in some forms of scripture… Jesus states God is the God of the Living and I think that some “live” in some way after death.
In Hebraic thought I see that it was taught that it was an existence outside the realm of the living. In a sense there is a “place” where the dead are held. Yet, to describe it as a place is still to me misleading as it is like explaining 4 dimensions to a 3 dimensional creature. There are a whole new set of rules… It is the stated of being both living and dead yet neither…
I know that must be very confusing to you… but I can back it all up with scriptures… and have debated all sides within myself for years.
iggy
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:23 pm
ChrisL-
I think this becomes unhealthy when the focus becomes “know Jesus so you go to heaven when you die” rather than “see what God did for you, so lovingly live in service to Him in response to the grace shown to you”.
I couldn’t agree more. But I would push a bit further and suggest that Jesus’ words in John 14 are far more inclusive than we might first imagine.
First, imagine the audience. A minority group of ragtag followers who are soon to be persecuted and killed for their following of “the Way.” Jesus’ words to these people, the minority, are reassuring that they are on the right path - that his Way is THE way, and that they can depend (trust, have faith) in this. For us living in a Christian majority without persecution this is hard to envision.
Second, in John’s Gospel we find an expansive embrace. The Father’s house has many rooms (v. 2). “House,” or “oikia” is household, or family. The way of Jesus is inviting us into God’s ever expanding family. There is no way for us to get to the Father, but Jesus has generously opened one (Heb. 10:20) John 14:1 implies Jesus is the open handed way - not the way which closes off any other way. In v. 6 we find him reassuring the doubting Thomas that he is the way and to Philip who wishes to see the Father, Jesus assures him that he already has, for God has made a way to us (v. 8). Jesus says in 10:16 “I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold.” WOW! And Jesus assures them that they will one day be brought, that they will hear his voice and have one shepherd.
Christ claims that his way is wide, eager and resourceful. That when he is lifted up he will draw ALL men to himself. Jesus is the great magnet, drawing all to the Father because in his death and resurrection he has swung the door wide open.
We proclaim this truth in an unhealthy way when we assume that because someone has not yet heard of Jesus they are damned. This is not to be construed as the fault of the one having not yet heard but should fall to the shoulders of the church who has failed to proclaim the good news to all. I believe God, in his infinite mercy and love, is capable of reaching any and all, and they will all see that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and none come to the Father but through Him (because of him!)
peace,
Chad
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
The “Depart from me I never knew you” is just a scolding.
Universalism is goofy. In the Greek goofy is false.
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Rick,
Funny you should mention Matthew 7 as I just preached on it, and that very verse, yesterday.
It is not a scolding at all but a pleading. There is an intimacy to knowing that must be addressed. To “know” (ginosko), is the same verb used to describe how Joseph did not “know” Mary before she conceived a son. Same with how Adam, in Gen. 4:1, “knew” his wife and she bore him a son. Thus, there is this deep intimacy in knowing - one that creates life.
Jesus has come to give us life. He knows us intimately. Remember, this is the same God who knew us before we were formed in our mother’s womb and knows every hair on our head. This is the same Jesus that just spoke to the multitudes and began with “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.”
There are indeed eternal consequences to our consistently snubbing the God who knows us dearly and loves us even to death. When I read Jesus saying that there could be a day when I will have to say, “depart from me, I never knew you,” I imagine he says it with tears in his eyes, not a smirk on his face.
Thus, Rick, when you quipped, “eat, drink and be merry” that is not accurate at all. The question for us is, what are we creating together with God? What are we doing of eternal signficance in such a way that we are “knowing” (creating) with God? The onus is upon us who know this Jesus to strive to point others to the Way which will bring life, not death.
peace,
Chad
June 2nd, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Chris L would be correct, I have no pretense in asking the questions. I ask, not because I believe I can “debate” the issue or change either of our minds, rather because I am not incredibly well-versed in the details of Calvinism, and truthfully, am wondering how you answer these questions according to your beliefs. That is really it.
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
“Chris L would be correct”
Thank you for being a Biblical wife, Zan!
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Iggy: I’ll take that as a “possibly yes…”
Thank you, Rick. I can always count on you for in-depth clarification. 8^)>
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Ig,
Where can you read those guys’ stuff? You got a link, or do I have to go down to my Library? Thanks mang.
Joe
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I’m talking about Poly and Ignats etc etc… What specific stuff are you reading?
June 3rd, 2008 at 1:07 am
The book i am reading is available at http://www.voiceofelijah.org/
I am not that knowledgeable of the ministry itself but the book is mostly just the writings of Irenaeus and that Hyppo guys
Also, http://www.ccel.org/ is one of the greatest resources I have found. I just wish I could suport them more.
iggy
June 3rd, 2008 at 6:59 am
Joe,
The book is called “Anti Christ” at the voice of elijah site. again I just am going through that one book. You can download it or have it sent for free.
But as far as that ministry I am not tha familiar with them to recommend them yet.
Other things I am reading are
Brother Lawrence’s Practicing the Presence of God (which I am leading a study through)
Culture Makers by Andy Crouch, (which I am reading ot do a review on my blog)
I just finished Tony Jones’ THE NEW CHRISTIANS (which I did a spiffy little review on my blog)
iggy
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:30 am
Thanks Ig I’ll check the stuff out brother.
Joe
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:17 am
His humility and servanthood should be an example to all Christians.