cell phone evangelism?
When i first read this, I thought to myself “this has to be a joke.” But then I realized what website i was on. I am not doubting that this method of evangelism might work. But, it seems like just making friends with every non-believer that you meet would be a much more effective tactic. I am getting tired of hearing about these evangelistic methods that don’t require a relationship with the outsider. Especially when they include some type of statement like this in the explanation
So, let’s say you are in the mall. If you are like me, the security guards in your local mall know you by sight. As soon as you step foot into the mall, an APB goes out over security radios. “Red alert! We have a bogey inbound! That preacher is back! Keep an eye on him! We don’t want this subversive influencing the youths who frequent our mall!” source
Really? Does this guy really believe that the college freshman rent-a-cop in the retail outlets is concerned about the indoctrination of teenage mall rats? When will we stop trying to do evangelism like this? It’s like we want to help pull people out of the miry pit without getting the mud on our clothes. If having a bait and switch fake cell phone conversation is the best evangelistic tactic we got, something is wrong in Christendom.
May 24th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
While I would agree with you that relational evangelism is preferable by far, I do know some people who have been saved by the Holy Spirit through people using these methods.
I find it very difficult to criticize, let alone ridicule, others for making an effort. If my Christian brother or sister feels led by the Holy Spirit to do this, then that is how they ought to evangelize, because they will reach those who may be reached by this method.
If I feel that I ought to evangelize in a different way (admittedly relational), then I ask that those who use cell phones and bananas and other contraptions not judge me either.
In other words, thank the Lord that harvesters are working in His fields, even if you don’t like the brand of combine that they’re using.
May 24th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Amen EG.
I predict Nathan will
a) say that this article is satire, and that you are too obtuse to understand that
b) defend his premise by saying that his lack of evangelism is justified because of the good it does the world
c) Say (like Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, et.al) that evangelism is unesecessary, because everyone is reconciled and restored when they stand in front of God, unless they reject Christ
I am sick of people who are likely of the 98% that Bill Bright says does not evangelize, or of the 2% who use deceptive methods and ‘human’ seeker friendly marketing methods to evangelize people into a particular church, or those that think having a rock concert or (insert public service) here is evangelism criticizing those great men and women of God who are actually doing what the Savior commanded.
In many states, distributing of literature in malls is considered soliciting, so the silent witness does not count. We must have creative methods to reach people who might never darken the door of a church with the good news. As Deputy Miano is respectful of the law, and passionate about evangelism, he has found a creative way to do this. Knowing Tony personally, I can only vouch for his great commitment to the Savior.
So Nathan, how do you suggest we might reach the mall rats? Or are they not worthy of salvation?
May 24th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Rob Bell says that evangelism is unnecessary? I’ve listened to practically every sermon that he’s preached in the past year, and I’ve never heard that. In fact, I’ve heard the opposite.
As I said in my post, “…I ask that those who use cell phones and bananas and other contraptions not judge me either.” And I ask that you not judge brother Bell (or others) either. Each of us has a task in the harvest. I may use a Massey, you a John Deere, and Bell a Case - but we all have the same Holy Spirit purple gas, without which, nothing would get done.
So, to the author of the post, and to pastorboy… can the judging, fire up your combines, and get ‘er done in the way that you are led to do so.
May 24th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Just as I found Rob Bell’s criticism of a street witnessing guy unwise, I find it unwise to criticize anyone who attempts to be used of God to bring sinners the gospel. I was saved in part by seeing bumper stickers. I never had any relationship with a born again Christian when I was saved. This cell phone approach may not be the most effective, but it just may plant some seeds. I appreciate his fervor.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Hey Nathan, I like your work, but I think I have to agree with E.G on this one… seems a little off base from what this site is about.
Tony isn’t attacking another Christian in his article, he’s just outlaying an evangelism method - probably doesn’t fall under “watching the watchmen” in my book unless I missed something.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Pastorboy,
When none of your predictions come true are we allowed to stone you as a false prophet? Or maybe you’ll just apologize.
I’m now taking odds on which one will happen first.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
I will go on to ask- Do you believe that you are good enough to go to heaven? Do you think human kind is?
Do you believe that Jesus died for the whole world to be reconciled and restored as Doug Pagitt says? Or do you believe, as Rob Bell has stated, that the atonement of Christ brought the whole world into reconciliation?
If they are right, there is no need to evangelize. But if the Bible is right, and if we look at the words of Jesus himself as he says to ‘make disciples’, and that he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him, isn’t evangelism very important?
Nathan, have you ever told a lie? Revelation 21:8 says that in transgressing the 9th commandment, your home will be in the lake of fire!
How about stealing? how about adultery? Jesus said if you look with lust you commit adultery already in your heart. Jesus says that hatred is the same as murder.
How are you doing so far, Nathan?
You see, we need to evangelize, especially because many people who have heard of Christ do not even see their need for Christ. The truth is, we are sinners. The wrath of God abides on us. None of us seek after God. None of us are righteous. We need an alien righteousness. This is why Christ died. Romans 5:8 says it is a demonstration of God’s love for us. By his death Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we must respond by repenting of our sins, and placing our trust in Christ for salvation.
One of the things that we do as a result of being born again is that we love God for what he has done for us, and we want to tell the world as often as we can, in any way that we can. We want to share this good news with others!
I would suggest some healthy self-examination, Nathan. If you insult people for their method of doing what God commands all Christians everywhere to do, how are you doing it? Are you?
You suggest we need to build a relationship? I can (by the power of the Holy Spirit) build rapport with a person within 3 minutes. It is all I need to share the Gospel!
May 24th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
I think a simple “I disagree with your criticism” may have worked better.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Tim,
I’ll apologize. Or you can stone me. It does not matter.
E.G.
If you have read Velvet Elvis, you will see this. If you watch Nooma 10 you will see this.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Also, I’m a little interested in how the success of this method is measured by people discussing Jesus. I seem to remember quite a few people complaining about various outreach ministries because they didn’t result in direct responses to the gospel. People would say, “well that’s great you did X, but those people are still going to hell”. Where’s that attitude at now?
Oh yes, I remember, its all about the team politics. People talking but not responding is good if you’re on the right team, but bad if you’re on teh wrong one.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Rick,
I disagree with your criticism of my criticism.
But I still love you.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Tim,
The Bible speaks very clearly about this. The word of God will not return void. If you are just speaking words into the open air, the right person will hear them at the right time.
I am simply commanded to speak the truth. The results are absolutely up to God.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
PB - I completely agree with your view of this guy and his honest effort to witness. But you significantly expanded the topic and eventually made it about others including Nathan.
I have every confidence that upon further review Nathan will see that he was a little too severe. Just like all of us should sometimes sift our words. I have seen you do it too, to your credit.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Rick,
Even on this forum, though it is directed at Nathan, others will hopefully read and examine themselves in the light of God’s law. This is the way I evangelize; I can be speaking to one person, but if friends or passers by are around, be sure they are also being impacted by the words.
Re: my first post, the truth is that many of the more pomo ilk see little need or reason for any type of evangelism, or they consider nice deeds as evangelism (i.e. a cup of water, or some food, or some helpful deeds)
May 24th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
I agee with that which is a good topic for discussion.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Chris or Tim - Is the word pomo refer to post modern and is it derogatory or do emergents use it themselves?
May 24th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
PB,
That’s quite a stretch to go from Isaiah 55:11, which is much more properly read as messianic prophecy (Jesus = the word = how we are reconciled to Christ) than it is that heavy handed, and often insulting rhetoric will Jesus-Zap people. This jives especially well with the assertion that God’s ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts since the work of Christ was so mindblowingly unexpected.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Pastorboy is having a nice conversation with himself. And notice, he doesn’t even disagree with himself. Yea Pastorboy!!!!
May 24th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Rick,
I believe its just an abbreviation. I’ve never heard of anyone being insulted by it.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
As far as evangelism goes, may I humbly suggest that Christians stop criticizing each other’s methods of evangelism and actually start living out the gospel? The way I see it, most people in America have heard the gospel message. And a lot of them probably think it’s the stupidest thing they’ve ever heard, because the people they’ve seen claim to live it are complete judgemental hypocrites. I’ve seen this happen too much and it’s sad.
Also, not everyone is able to boldly proclaim their faith face to face with someone . . . complete introverts would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. Wait . . . everyone would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. “Cell phone evangelism” may be a valid effort, certainly, but unless those mall people actually see a genuine liver-outer of the gospel (okay, that sounds like some sort of gross canned meat!) and not just another hypocrite, chances are they will just snort and roll their eyes.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
I read the article to the point he took the unnecessary swipe at Rob Bell… why one believer would feel the need to say another believer slander another is beyond me… it’s just sad really.
Neil
May 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
^Ha, ha, I’m such an articulate writer today!
Sorry if that made no sense.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
So PB,
As I know that you’re aware, Jesus’ command was to make disciples, not go evangelize. In cell phone evangelism, assuming the word of God is not returning void and miraculously, a hearer genuinely repents of their sins, how does discipleship of this new believer happen?
corey
May 24th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Amen… though can we critique methods? For example, while I think the cell-phone evangelism to be creative it is somewhat deceptive (since it’s a fake conversation) and I’m not sure evangelism by annoyance is the best method.
Just a question, not a criticism.
Neil
May 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I originally read pomo ilk as porno ilk, and became very confused about what PB was saying.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
“Pomo” is often used as a derogatory term. And of course it can be. But it’s not the universal enemy of the Gospel that most ODM’s (and/or those stuck in “Mo”) think it is…
Postmodernity is no more a threat to, or friend of, the Gospel than the Modernity it follows.
Neil
May 24th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Neil - I agree. This guy has a heart for evangelism and appears to do a lot of it. However when you take several “swipes” at Bell or anyone else it is pride which means God does not accept it. It also means that instead of just sharing and exhorting, you are eliciting praise from your camp.
That is quite unproductive.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Again - I cannot get over the swipe against Bell in the article.
It served no purpose.
It was completely irrelevant to his story.
I don’t know… it just hurts to see someone go the offensive and out of their way to bash a brother in Christ.
What does it serve?
Neil
May 24th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
“and I’m not sure evangelism by annoyance is the best method.”
I quite agree. Like I said, most people in America know the gospel message. They just need to see it in action or they’re not going to really care.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Are you guys reading the same article that I wrote above? please not the following opening lines of the article
I am not saying that this is bad… I even said that this might be effective. And Pastor Boy, please tell me where I insulted his method of evangelism. I simply mentioned how ridiculous it is to
A. be infamous in the mall for disturbing the peace with your evangelistic methods
B. think that you are being escorted out of the mall because you are talking with teenagers about the gospel.
I did not insult his methods. i did critique this false sense of martyrdom and persecution. i guarantee you that I could go into any mall and strike up a conversation with the mall rats in LA without doing anything that would warrant my removal from the establishment, or put me on a black list for the future.
Look, I am not saying that this method shouldn’t be used. Anything that brings people to the gospel is GREAT! However, I find it funny that the ODMs will criticize PD churches for having a coffee bar in their church — “obviously” a bait and switch for the gospel. But, it is ok to have semi-illegitimate conversations over cell phones to deliver the gospel. For me the real issue is the pride in having an unnecessary infamous reputation in the community, and the double standard. I also find it unhealthy for most Christians to abdicate their responsibility to be in the world, trading it for impersonal evangelistic tactics.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Good points Nathan. Thanks.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
PB,
Really now, you may make some good points in the interim; but when you begin and end a comment with such statements it’s really hard to take ya seriously.
Neil
May 24th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
“how do you suggest we might reach the mall rats?”
Mall rats are not the elect. Unless they are offspring of elect parents.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I would find cell phone evangelizing extremely annoying— (just like i find anyone talking on a cell phone LOUDLY annoying) but my main problems with these articles are- they kinda feel like the guy is being deceitful; he is kind of snide about the “rob bell look-alikes” (also known as people who are not fifty years old and follow trends?) He is snide about Rob Bell…
and mostly- if you’re going to get people talking about Jesus, why just drop a TRACT and leave without TALKING to them, helping the conversation go somewhere productive, asking if they need anything prayed for? it kind of boggled my mind….
May 24th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
I agree he should have avoided any Rob Bell remarks. However many of us have in our lifetime have spoken to someone looking for an opportunity to share Christ. Or even established a relationship partially motivated by evangelism.
I see nothing wrong with rehearsing the gospel to your friend over the phone in hopes that someone will hear.
May 24th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Nathan:
“Are you guys reading the same article that I wrote above?”
Yes. And you make some decent points in your comments. However, the tone of your initial post went from the first line or so to a very critical statement about this guy’s method indicating something amiss in Christendom.
That final statement is very ODM, if you ask me.
As Rick has been saying, - and as I said at the outset - let’s just be thankful that this guy is spreading the Gospel.
If he wants to Bell bash, that’s another issue. The issue here is criticism of one form of evangelism or another, because that’s the issue brought up in the initial post.
May 24th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
“PB,
That’s quite a stretch to go from Isaiah 55:11, which is much more properly read as messianic prophecy (Jesus = the word = how we are reconciled to Christ) than it is that heavy handed, and often insulting rhetoric will Jesus-Zap people.”
Really!!??
I have heard these arguments before that whenever the term “word” appears in the scripture it actually means Jesus everytime.
If this is true then Jesus should have told the devil, “man does not live by bread alone but by every ME that comes from the mouth of God.”
Isaiah 55:
6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
This passage is speaking of God’s word both spoken and written.
May 24th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I’m guessing you mean the ten commandments or parts of the Torah, in which case you are trying to win Gentiles with the Jew’s law. Isn’t the perfect law of God to love him and your neighbour second?
May 24th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Then maybe you should go argue with someone who makes those arguments instead of me.
Considering the Hebrew word there (transliterated: dabar) is specifically the spoken word, I’m not sure you should be making statements like that. This is a case where a little bit of doubt about one’s own infallibility might have prevented such a simple mistake.
Or where do we see this doctrine reflected in the NT? Are there times when the gospel is responded to via the spoken word? Sure. But there are also times when the gospel is rejected outright. In fact, Jesus seems to indicate that is a very real possibility.
Perhaps taking a single verse that is surrounded by vivid imagery of life growing, and of God’s thoughts compared to our own and trying to systematize it into a justification for the type of evangelism you prefer but is now rarely if ever successful isn’t the best hermeneutic to use.
May 24th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
That has to be the most laughable method of “evangelism” I’ve ever heard in my entire life. ALL people who talk loudly on cell phones are obnoxious. Also, unless the person was a grade-A actor, it would be abundantly obvious that he/she was doing it for effect, and if I were at the next table, I would probably calmly walk over and matter-of-factly say, “Please, DO shut up, you freak.” This is no different from the annoying morons who hold signs at music festivals and/or on city streets. Objects of derision, all, and despite what some might believe, it has zero to do with the message. It’s about hypocrisy and invasion of personal space. More on that below.
I find it funny that, amidst the constant and blatant symbolism and allegory of that book, certain kinds of Christians choose that one to focus in on as literal. .
Oh, and Tim, remember when I told you earlier about the 3rd graders at OneNewsNow and the way they redirect links from blogs they don’t agree with? That quote is the exact outline of that very funny website.
That is so not even true based on observable reality.
OMG SRSLY.
That’s the problem with the Christian church these days…in so many cases the words and the actions don’t match. For instance, the other day, the leader of an anti-gay-marriage group in California urged county clerks, on his website, to refuse to hand out marriage licenses to gays, and proceeded to compare it to following orders to gas Jews. I’m sure he tells random people about Jesus, too.
Fruit borne? Rotten. Dead.
May 25th, 2008 at 5:29 am
Merry:- As far as evangelism goes, may I humbly suggest that Christians stop criticizing each other’s methods of evangelism and actually start living out the gospel? The way I see it, most people in America have heard the gospel message. And a lot of them probably think it’s the stupidest thing they’ve ever heard, because the people they’ve seen claim to live it are complete judgemental hypocrites. I’ve seen this happen too much and it’s sad.
Also, not everyone is able to boldly proclaim their faith face to face with someone . . . complete introverts would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. Wait . . . everyone would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. “Cell phone evangelism” may be a valid effort, certainly, but unless those mall people actually see a genuine liver-outer of the gospel (okay, that sounds like some sort of gross canned meat!) and not just another hypocrite, chances are they will just snort and roll their eyes.
I agree, good post…..
May 25th, 2008 at 6:02 am
I’m curious when Pastor Boy is going to apologize to Nathan since he’s now 0-4 on predictions.
May 25th, 2008 at 6:36 am
Isn’t it funny the people who defend this method are also against pragmatism?
This is a silly and somewhat dishonest way to lead someone else to Jesus… I mean “pretend” (you know lie) to those around you that you are talking to someone else… I ahve stated this over and over, but people like PB just can’t or wont hear, Truth does not need lies to promote it.
= )
iggy
May 25th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Oh really, Tim? Am I? Are you reading the same responses I am?
Corey,
The first step in making disciples is going- going out into the harvest fields. As the Greek indictes, “as you are going, go” or “in going, go” I still have yet to hear from any of these commenters what they personally do differently to reach people. Now, the command is to make disciples. Again the first step is conversion; you cannot make disciples out of a person who just believes Jesus is a cool guy; they must be converted knowing that Jesus is God who bore our sins and received the wrath of God on our behalf. When they know how they have been rescued and are born again from above, they will seek out the Word of God and desire to study it, be in fellowship with others, and have a strong desire to grow. They will seek out the evangelist who can plug them into a good, Bible-believing and practicing Church.
Someone in this volumonous thread mentioned about the testimony of those who willingly break laws, or go into malls..This is not just some college student mall security person, as I explained earlier, people who desire to share their faith one to one with strangers are being stopped; because they go to particular malls regularly, they are known. This is a creative method of sharing the Gospel, people have heard the Word of God preached. I cannot see any truly converted person having a problem with that!
As to the mentioning of Rob Bell et.al. I have documented ad infinitum the times that he has attacked and questioned evangelism, going so far as even questioning the need for it. It makes me wonder if on a board of so many Rob Bell apologists if Nathan is writing from that perspective or from a perspective Bell has also taken, a universal salvation. I raise that question again; is evangelism necessary? or is all the world going to be reconciled and restored to God?
May 25th, 2008 at 6:45 am
Iggy,
If you read the original post, the person IS talking to somebody, answering the questions posed. Even though the other person is doing this knowing that these questions when answered will produce a response that allows the Gospel to be shared. Please do not misrepresent the article or the method.
Who have you personally gone out and shared with today?
May 25th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Unless of course they may be the 12 disciples, the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, Mary, Martha, the thief on the cross, etc… Who I suspect were intrigued by Jesus’ words long before they were ever convicted of sin.
If you believe that substitutionary atonement is the way that God chose to reconcile us to him.
Except for the fact that it most likely is a “turn-off”, nuisance, and a poor representation of the Gospel to the security guard that has to toss you out every week. Seeing as how you continue to come back repeatedly even when asked to stop. I guess the verse about obeying the laws of man don’t apply when you want to be “evangelist”.
bwahahahahahaha!!!! Must we continually refute this. Nah not even going to bother. As I’ve said before “People who have problems with Bullhorn guy most likely are Bullhorn guy” *winks* at Todd Friel.
I would tell you but I look at witnessing the same way I look at prayer and fasting. If you gotta tell someone you’re doing it you’re probably doing it with the wrong motivation.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:10 am
God can and does use anything. I hold up a sing on the highway that says “Prepare Now - I am Coming - Jesus”. All of us fall painfully short in witnessing so I am in favor of most styles of witnessing. Even caustic “Turn of Burn” street people have been used of God, sometimes speaking directly to someone or sometimes allowing people to listen to a more loving sharing since it is a breath of fresh air to them.
I have not seen Paul or Jesus criticize people for styles of witnessing. Paul even rejoices when sinners witness as a mock. There is enough dead wood without us putting out a little wild fire!
May 25th, 2008 at 7:12 am
“If you believe that substitutionary atonement is the way that God chose to reconcile us to him. ”
That is the only way.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Gee, another ODM refuses to apologize after slandering his brothers. Shocking.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:25 am
I won’t hijack the thread! Sorry.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:41 am
“That is the only way”
“I won’t hijack the thread”
That thread, when unravelled, removes the clothing of redemption.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Agreed…kinda! LOL
May 25th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Perhaps the better quote would have been:
Maybe it’s time we had an article on the numerous orthodox views of atonement within the history of the church, since SPA is rather new and has some ideological flaws (and orthopractical flaws, as demonstrated by PB, above) when viewed as the sole acceptable theory of atonement.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:21 am
I apologize that I said that Nathan would say that he was being humorous and that we would be seen as obtuse. I was wrong. He has not said it to this point.
I apologize that on point 2 that Tim does not recognize that I was right, because multiple commenters (but not Nathan himself) have made this point for me, that it is more important to do nice things and build a relationship than it is to preach the Word.
I apologize, despite the fact again, that most of the people on this thread have agreed that their emergent
godsprophetsleaderspastors hate any verbal form of evangelism and see no need for it.I apologize, because I do not want to be offensive, the true Gospel is offensive enough as it is. I really want people on this board who are not born again to be born again. So therefore, I do not want to be an offense or a distraction. So I apologize.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Tim, I am offended that you have once again accused me of slander. Slander is making false statements. I have documented, printed, video, and recorded evidence of all things I have stated about Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, et.al.
So in accusing me of slander, you have slandered me.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Much of what you’ve written about Rob Bell would well be classified as slander, so Tim’s on pretty solid ground here…
May 25th, 2008 at 8:36 am
FYI - the evidence of your slander against Bell is in this thread, beginning with your first comment:
Even when called on this falsehood by folks who listen to him every week, you’ve trudged merrily along. Just because someone teaches that lifestyle evangelism is more effective than street corner evangelism doesn’t mean that they teach that “evangelism is unnecessary”.
Your continued comments re: universalism are just as off-base and slanderous. Perhaps it is YOU who owe an apology. So, when are you going to go to Mars Hill Bible Church and spend several days there getting to know the church and its pastor - or is it more important to you to bash them to make yourself seem somehow spiritually superior?
May 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Let back to the purpose on evangelism. The purpose is to let people know about it, so what’s wrong if we using cell phoe, it is just same as you using internet, just a media my friend
May 25th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Rastor - I think it had more to do with the false pretenses and charade behind the “method” and the poor witness being made to folks (i.e. the security folks) by the continual making a nuisance of yourself in the way you choose to “share” the gospel…
May 25th, 2008 at 9:38 am
I wasn’t even referencing that particular slander. I was referring to your predictions of what Nathan would do.
I also find it sadly predictable that your apology includes in it an insult.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Oh, and I should note that implicit within these predictions is the continued assertion that Chris L lied in the earlier satirical thread despite assurances by Chris L to the contrary and in addition to the testimony of his wife.
Such ungraciousness isn’t found even among pagans.
May 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Chris L,
Just because people listen to him every week does not mean that they actually hear what he is saying!! I have documented written and recorded evidence of Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt denigrating evangelism and endorsing universalist thought.
Tim,
Where was the assertion that Chris L. did something in an earlier thread? Where was there an insult in the apology?
I am going to use the emergent’s favorite Bible verse here ‘judge not lest ye be judged’. Stop judging me Tim, you hypocrite!
May 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
“Such ungraciousness isn’t found even among pagans.”
Yes it is.
May 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Fortunately, they have folks like you with access to the Lamb’s book of life and powers of ESP to ‘put straight’ their lying ears and eyes.
Whatever, John. You’re basically just a modern update of the 70’s hacks who played rock albums backward looking for ’secret messages’ that everyone else was ‘missing’.
I’m not sure how you can even look into the mirror after lies like the ones you’re touting…
May 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Ah, the “he did it too!” defense (even if, as in this case, he didn’t ‘do it too’ - no apology was offered. Rather, sadly, I had to explain satire to a group of folks who should have been able to ‘discern’, based upon their supposed years of study. Literature 101, man - I thought they still taught that in schools today…)
Actually, John, you’ve just quoted the ODM straw-man version, choosing to only quote part of the context, leaving out the most important bit:
Which is exactly why the satirical piece worked so well the other day - far better than I imagined it might…
May 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
“You’re basically just a modern update of the 70’s hacks who played rock albums backward looking for ’secret messages’ that everyone else was ‘missing’.”
Yea, but Paul was really dead!
May 25th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Someone might want to tell Heather Mills that she’s suing a dead man, then, and that her legal case doesn’t have a leg to stand on…
May 25th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Pastorboy,
First, there’s the fact that you accused him of only pretending he intended it as satire (an accusation you still have not withdrawn or apologized for), then you make the same accusation here in the form of a prediction, which only makes sense if you think it happened once and so it happening again (which in your mind is the pattern the rest of your predictions took.
As far as where the insult is within your apology, that should stand out to anyone. You wrote:
Which is untrue, as well as intended as an insult.
May 25th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Wow, this is so sad that we as Christians are spending our energy on the bashing of this issue. Is living you life right and not saying anything Biblical? Is “making friends” with nonbelievers biblical or even possible? The answer is clearly no. Did Jesus command us to go around and build relationships and make friends first? No, his commandment was to “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Can the Gospel not be preached in Open Air, in a tract or even on a cell phone? Of course it can.
We could ignore that commandment by Jesus and wait to be asked or live our life right but we all know what happens. Many people we pass by or know will one day die and go to Hell. We are on this earth to tell others about our savior. If you are an “introvert” then pass out tracts. If you like speaking to people then do 1 to 1. If you are home bound, then send letters and tracts in the mail to people. The point is - Do Something According To What Our Savior Wants.
What if the Disciples waited to be asked or wanted to make friends with everyone first. Christianity may not have made it out of the First Century.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Chris L,
Was that an amputee joke?
Or am I being obtuse?
May 25th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
What about the idea that it’s just dishonest? You’re pretending to do something you’re not doing. It’s lieing. It’s being dishonest. It’s using false pretenses. It’s a sales gimmick. The motive may be right, but the action is dishonest. Period. At best, any who support this are supporting situational ethics.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Tim,
I apologize for that. I really meant it as satire, using the strike like many of the people here do to play like Mr. Double Talk, played by Kevin Nealon on Saturday Night Live.
I think you are being judgemental and obtuse
I think I will add an LOL and a =) like iggy to try to take away the sting.
May 25th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Travis,
I suspect you’re picking and choosing which verse to quote to defend what you already held to be true.
The verse you happened to quote comes from a portion of scripture which isn’t found in the earliest manuscripts, indicating it probably wasn’t part of the original document. On the other hand if we quote from the ascension in Matthew we get this:
Of course this passage doesn’t say how to make disciples, it just says to go do it. Which is probably why you didn’t quote it.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
travis,
I’m figuring you won’t come back- but you think being friends with unbelievers is unbliblical???
also- who said that we wait to be asked about jesus?
and joe- i think i said it was deceitful about 37 comments ago… I know you wish you were as intelligent as me
May 25th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Pastorboy said: “Now, the command is to make disciples. Again the first step is conversion; you cannot make disciples out of a person who just believes Jesus is a cool guy; they must be converted knowing that Jesus is God who bore our sins and received the wrath of God on our behalf. When they know how they have been rescued and are born again from above, they will seek out the Word of God and desire to study it, be in fellowship with others, and have a strong desire to grow. They will seek out the evangelist who can plug them into a good, Bible-believing and practicing Church.”
Unfortunately, Jesus’ model doesn’t seem to be conversion first, then discipleship. In fact, he seems to disciple people into conversion. That is impossible with drive-by (phone-by) evangelism. As you rightly stated, in the Greek of the Great Commission, the only command is to make disciples. I find it fascinating that you will focus a lot of energy on the “first step” of going but will just assume that discipleship of the person that eavesdrops on the fake phone conversation will just happen. The COMMAND is to make disciples. Shouldn’t that be where we put our emphasis instead of just hoping that it takes care of itself or leaving it in the hands of this new believer to simply know what they need to do?
By the way, while not seeking to boast (but since you laid out the challenge that nobody here evangelizes)…I meet every week with a group of 20 teenagers, only 3 or 4 who have actually made a faith commitment yet. I lead them in study the Bible, we pray together and talk about what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Tonight, six of those kids actually came to church, which is amazing since none of them have any church background at all. We’re discipling them into faith…kind of like Jesus did. I would guess that other commenters here could say something similar.
You can talk all you want about how faithful you are to spout out the message to anyone who will not slap you (and even to those who will) but at some point there ought to be fruit that leads to disciples who make other disciples. I have yet to see any of these drive-by evangelists actually care for their targets as people and invest in their lives…which is necessary to DO WHAT JESUS SAID and MAKE DISCIPLES.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
You quote a NIV translation from the 1970’s. Here is a KJ version -
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
I didn’t go into every scripture on the issue but the one you mentioned is on the wall in my office so I am familiar with it. We could spend our time discussing early manuscripts and different versions of the Bible or we could do what Jesus commanded. The Latin for disciple is “a learner”. Can we “teach” others by numerous methods like I discussed earlier. Absolutely and we should. Jesus didn’t give a method in that particular scripture but he does give us examples throughout the NT (John 4:1-26).
May 25th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
“travis,
I’m figuring you won’t come back- but you think being friends with unbelievers is unbliblical???”
I don’t know why you would assume I wouldn’t be back but I may not be a regular simply because of time. If you thought I meant being friends with an unbeliever in not biblical, then you are mistaken. I simply don’t see where it is biblical to make friends before we speak to others about Christ. You can form a relationship with someone in a matter of minutes if you feel more comfortable doing that and then speak to them about Christ but when I hear Christians talk about “earning” the right over a period of time to discuss Christ, I simply don’t see that being biblical. I think that makes us more comfortable rather that doing what God wants us to do. If we saw strangers walking into a burning building, we would do everything we could to stop them. We wouldn’t care about being their friends or earning a right to talk to them but we think it is right to take our time in discussing the only thing that can save individuals from perishing.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Well, yeah I use a translation that doesn’t rely on manuscripts from the 1500s, which is probably why you don’t want to get into that discussion. The KJV is the worst major translation that you can still buy in most stores.
That being said, John 4 is a far cry from deceptive cell phone street preaching. Notice Jesus actually talks to the person he’s trying to communicate with, he deals with her on her terms, on her turf, and even lets her direct the conversation, and it is a conversation, not street preaching.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
travis,
do you think you have to say Jesus a certain number of times in your life to get into heaven? it doesn’t matter at all if all the words you say just fall on deaf ears?
I’m really not looking for a fight… just asking.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
^
Yes, but if one if to model after Jesus, it’s probably not a good idea to evangelize in thoroughly annoying ways.
Because that’s not how Jesus played it.
Hey, Mandy & Tim, I’m not a Biblical literalist and I like lots of other religions too, so I wanted to let you know we’re not friends b/c Travis said so, okthxbye…
May 25th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
It seems it’s the only joke I’ve not had to explain for the past several days…
May 25th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Chris L., I don’t get it.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
We wouldn’t have to earn the right to share the gospel if Christians hadn’t acted so unChristlike that mere identification with Christ in some quarters is enough to shut ears.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Not splitting hairs but the KJV is a transliteration (compiled manuscripts and some original translation) while the N.I.V. is a true translation (from the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramic)
For my money I’m taking the translation over the transliteration any day.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I have heard people pray the gospel because they know unbelievers are listening.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Somehow, this is reminding me of the habit Ken used to have - grasping onto a phrase/word/concept that was new to him and then promptly using it in a consistently incorrect, incoherent manner…
PB, if you aren’t going to bother figuring what satire is and is not, how about just dropping the shtick? Seriously. It’s obvious that you don’t get it and that you’re just going to use it to cover for when you’re lying (which has nothing to do with the actual form of satire).
FYI: This isn’t the first time that I’ve used this particular form (or the first time that Ingrid and Ken both missed the point). I think it was the dance festival two years ago and my post mirroring Ingrid’s.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
My personal concerns regarding evangelism are regarding the MESSAGE and if it is being done in a loving attitude. For example, I do cringe if I see someone doing a mean-hateful sounding kind of turn or burn you are going to hell kind of street preaching. But! I don’t mind that message preached on the street if it is done in love and an attitude of genuine care for people and accompanied with the GOSPEL- Christ crucified for our sins by His grace- which is good news.
If you have the MESSAGE right(not a false gospel) and the loving concern for people there in the delivery, why fuss about all the ways to witness? Creativity is a good thing. Right now I’m compiling a list of creative summertime witnessing ideas to share with people. We need more laborers in the harvest. There are many ways to witness and share the gospel. God gives us each different ways to witness.
Having a relationship somehow in evangelism is good & a wonderful thing. I personally love to have a relationship with someone and share the gospel. I also like to share the gospel with complete strangers. You know why? Because I may never see them again, but I care about them, and if the Lord guides me to share the gospel with someone, I’m must not tell Him no, but just do it. Even if I strike up a conversation and have a “relationship” that lasts 2 minutes before I start to tell them the gospel.
LOTS OF PEOPLE hear/read the gospel and get saved
without ever meeting the person who sent the message, or without ever having a conversation with the person who they heard the message from.
There are so many examples it would take a comment post a page long to list. Here are some examples:
1. Me: someone sent me a bible. Don’t know who. No clue. Did not have a relationship with him/her. But they witnessed to me. God used that bible to save me. Praise Jesus.
2. Believers in North Korea: found these big square red balloons, with the scriptures written all over them: sent by Chinese believers across the border, they never even met them; have no idea who actually sent them. They are saved, having read the balloon. Praise God.
3. A guy I heard on the radio who got saved hearing street preacher: The preacher was saying that his sins could be forgiven in Christ! He repented and believed and received forgiveness and life! He did not have a relationship with the street preacher. There’s so many people who heard a street preacher and believed, and they did not always have the chance to talk to the preacher but they heard the gospel and believed.
4. All the people who got a bible via Brother Andrew in communist Europe: They got this bible, and read it, and God saved them. They never knew Brother Andrew.
5.The man who gave a bible to a store owner in Persia in the 1950’s, who used the pages to wrap cheese in. A man came and bought cheese, took it home, unwrapped the cheese, read the bible page, went back to the store and got more cheese/bible pages and eventually became a believer, reading the ripped out bible pages. (He then found a Christian who gave him his own bible.) That man was discipled and went on to reach hundreds of his countrymen (muslims) with the gospel- this is part of the seed of the huge Iranian church we have now!
6. The people hearing a brother who spends all his time riding the train across Russia and preaching on the train! People are hearing and believing. wow, praise God.
I’m sure there’s millions of stories like this. Get creative, be loving & care about the lost. Get out there, tell it, give it, share it, burn it (CD),speak it, write it, shout it.
God blesses us with having relationships with some of His saints now, but in heaven, we will have a lot more dear saints to have relationships with- that we do not even know about yet, til we get to glory.
Sow in tears, reap in joy.
Loretta
May 25th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
My favorite prayers are the ones where people are giving instructions or directions.
I.E.
“Lord help all those that just heard my sermon live it out exactly the way I said to.”
No satire there I actually heard a guy pray that (well with the specifics of his sermon)
May 25th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
For future reference: All posts about SOL here will either be serious correction based upon a Biblical principle - or - a satirical treatise, delicately manuevered, peppered with enjoyable metaphors, and ultimately designed to both entertain and make just as serious a point as non-satirical posts.
How will you know the difference? Is there a satire/serious tag available??
May 25th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
“Dear Lord, I am about to take the offering and I feel some people are about to blatantly disobey You. I realize You are asking people to give half of their savings and that those that do not will suffer the consequences, but I ask you to give them the faith to give that much before You do something to their family dog. Thank you Lord for not killing the dogs of those that give.
Amen and amen.
“OK, ushers come forward…”
May 25th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
What am I lying about exactly, oh great mind and heart reader Chris L and Tim?
I am satririzing the satire which you claimed as satire but was really in my opinion (and many others) an ad hominem attack on a person you hate and proves that you are not a Christian because you hate and attack and slander your sister and brother in Christ (Ingrid and Ken)
Or are you saying you are Christian and that they are not and you have the right therefore to hate and attack them? Shouldn’t you instead love them in relationship rather than attacking them?
If Iggy can call his ODM site satire, I can call my earlier comments satire. If Chris L can call his last attack on Ingrid Slander, so can I
This might be called Ironic, or it might be called hypocritical, that I cannot use the literary method of satire because my satire is not satire, because I wrote it?
May 25th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
PS, fyi, most of the witnessing I do is:
1. Having friendly, 1 on 1 conversations with people, some which get to the gospel in 2 minutes after meeting them.
2. Distributing literature: gospels, homemade gospel messages and CD’s.
Let all you do be done in love.
Loretta
May 25th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Pastorboy demonstrates why it has become necessary for Christians to earn the right to give the gospel.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
PB,
1. Sounds even more unethical and dishonest then.
2. I have shared my faith to all and anyone I am around as God leads… And personally I see that as none of you business and part of your ailment and confusion what true evangelism is. This sort of question makes you look like you are better than those who cannot share or are not able to for some reason. It is not a contest it is life and death. I find it repugnant to see you reduce it to a notch on your belt.
iggy
May 25th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
PB,
The main difference is that I am funny… = )
And maybe you are not being honest in your representing your own motives as you judge mine.
iggy
May 25th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
This is the point that I think needs to be drawn out more. Somehow, any silly method that is deemed evangelically effective is OK. Isn’t that the definition of pragmatism? Isn’t that something that is usually railed at.
Frankly, I grew up in church environments that love to use guilt to manipulate people. Asking someone, “how many people did you share with today” is a pure guilt trip. I refuse to be manipulated by that kind of thinking anymore, and I refuse to use it to motivate people. In the end, I think a lot of “methods” I’ve seen Christians use end up hardening a great deal of people to Christ, and I don’t think that the fact that a small percentage of people actually say the prayer through these methods is a justification for using them.
I’m at the point where I am comfortable just interacting with people as the Holy Spirit leads. Anything else is trusting my own strength, and in the end is trying to justify myself.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Iggy,
It is not a notch on my belt, it is what I do to the Glory of God. I am not gifted as an evangelist, and it would be easier on me if I stayed silent. But I am compelled by the love of God for people and overwhelmed with compassion for them.
Typical ODM behavior (that you say is typical) is to attack me rather than repent for your hateful Online Discernment Mafia Site.
Loretta,
Thank you for your testimony. I am with you, I can, by the grace of God, build enough of a relationship with a person within two minutes to share the Gospel with them. I praise the Lord for your commitment to share and to be obedient to the Great Commission.
Corey,
Before one can be a disciple, he must be a follower of Jesus. You do not disciple people into following Jesus, God draws them, they follow Christ, and then they are discipled into modeling Christ and living like Him. But don’t stop your Bible study with kids, that is an excellent way of leading them to a relationship with Christ. I just choose to present the Gospel first, and then being willing to always teach and share from the Word of God. The preaching of Christ is foolishness to those who do not believe! But, I will not condemn you for choosing that way.
I do believe that people who refuse to evangelize are either a) disobedient b) apathetic c) honestly don’t know they are called to do so or d) not disciples. Every Christian is a missionary or an impostor.
May 25th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
PB,
If you even ever take the time to know me, I laugh naturally all the time. I express this with LOL as it is how I am.
So mock me or judge me as you will, but in this I have only the testimony of Christ in my rising in Joy even in the midst of deep sorrow and pain. I wonder if you could even begin to understand what Jesus has delivered me from… but instead of getting to know people… you think fake cell phone evangelism where you don’t even meet a person is good.
I have gone beyond being surprised by you depth of judgmentalism… LOL! = ) LOL! (Hope it stings as much as God wants it too!)
iggy
May 25th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
PB,
Why do I need to repent again, for using humor to expose the lies of the ODM’s? To poke fun at my friends? I have gotten more emails thanking me for that site that hate mail… so maybe you see yourself a bit too much and the mirror hurts?
LOL!
iggy
May 25th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
I actually agree with Phil!
I think many of the methods harden people to Christ!
Especially the methods that are man centered, calling people into a faith that makes you believe that somehow, someway that Jesus will ,make the ride easier, that add Jesus to your life and your (fill in the blank with marriage, finances, parenting, abundance) will improve.
Or the preaching that promises a better life in any way for you if you just receive Jesus
Or the preaching that says Jesus loves everybody and all you have to do is accept him
Or the preaching that is hellfire and calling you a sinner, without allowing the conscience to become involved (all you do is insult them, when they don’t know what sin is)
Or to soften the message by over generalizing about sin as in ‘all have sinned’ thus never engaging a true awareness of their depravity before God
Or a message that says nothing of Jesus, but serves others and helps them be more comfortable in this life
I think there is a myriad of ways that innoculate people from their need for Christ~ and they do not include cell phone evangelism!
But that is just my opinion. The most loving thing we can do is to help people understand their need of salvation from sin. We are showing our love for God in our obedience, and our love for man by being compassionate enough to warn them.
Iggy,
Still not going to apologize?
Tim won’t say anything…you are on his team.
May 25th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Phil,
Yeah… I asked this a while ago and PB refused to answer it. I mean to me this is about the same as all the complaints about Rick Warren.
So again, it sounds dishonest and a bit detached from reality… it shows the hypocrisy that PB would defend then then attack anyone like Rick Warren..
Again, I see it as dishonest and about as effective as if one dropped tracts at random on the street while the wind blows… hmm that might even be more effective as God would be doin