VCY America - Meditations for Moonies (UPDATED)
Sometimes the truth is so much better than anything you could make up. Tonight, we can witness a case in point.
First, just to establish some context: As many readers may know, one of the frequent “discernmentalist” sites we take to task for injurious action toward the Body of Christ is Slice of Laodicea (SoL). Slice’s primary mode of operation is to place itself in a position of sanctimonious judgment over anyone/anything its primary author deems to fall short of her shallow, externalist view of Christianity. Unfortunately, Sol’s author is also a radio personality with a larger-than-average platform from which to spew her “discernment” on unsuspecting masses.
Frequent readers of SoL will recognize that one of its author’s primary sources of scorn against the modern church is its lack of older hymns and “proper” externals (with “proper” being defined as 1950’s idealized church culture). And so it is no surprise that SoL would publish an article like this one (here is a link to a screen-capture (and a full one), since it is highly probable that its author will attempt to make it disappear into the ether, as if it never happened).
In this article, SoL’s author begins by staking out a “moral” high ground:
I have heard hip, healthy young Christians laugh about the musical format at VCY America during the wee hours of the morning. Over the night hours our radio network airs quiet hymns and instrumental music interspersed with Scripture readings and devotional thoughts from the host, Vic Eliason. Oh, if only these young people could read the mail that we get.
Before we go on, it should also be noted that the author trumpets, with great pride, her vastly over-inflated ability of “discernment”. With this “gift”, she is able to spitefully trash all sorts of Christian brothers and sisters - Rick Warren, Ravi Zacharias, Rob Bell, Bill Hybels, Mark Driscoll and many more - along with casting aspersions at entire bodies of believers all over the world. For instance, her magnified powers of ‘discernment’ have recently been raking Ravi Zacharias over the fires of hell for not mentioning the name of Jesus in a prayer during a program on the National Day of Prayer.
But let’s continue with Ms. Schleuter’s discerning piece on the superiority of soft hymns over the “booty shaking” (her words in previous articles on the subject, not mine) music performed by most contemporary Christian artists:
I want to share a card, written in child-like handwriting with many cross outs that we received today. I am posting it exactly as it was written, without edits.
“Dear Station Manager:
How are you. I hope your doing OK. Anyway, I want to thank you for putting together your program Music Til Dawn. I listen very often to your program and wanted to express my gratitude. I am so glad to have found a good radio station like yours. I also do send gifts to your cause. I am just crazy about Jesus. Besides what else is there to talk about but the truth. Theres so much wisdom in the Bible. I also have the old, new and completed testament on cassettes. I just love to here about Jesus. I also work for a church and I also have to work alone in the basement. However I have a radio to keep me company so its not so bad. I wrap and sell flowers for Unification Church. But I’m hopeing some day to work full time. So If your working alone alot there’s people who are thankful for it. I know I am. So anyway you have my best wishes and keep up the good work.
Truly,
R.
Sounds touching, yes? No? Before we go on, perhaps a little bit of actual discernment is in order. Let’s note that the author of the letter, lovingly quoted by Ms. Schleuter, writes:
I wrap and sell flowers for Unification Church.
Now, I realize that I’m probably not a good test subject for “the average guy” when it comes to recognizing theological underpinnings, but I still remember my junior high school youth group’s short course on cults (circa 1982), and this little ditty should have sprung some alarm bells from anyone with even the slightest inkling of what ‘discernment’ entails.
From the Wikipedia article on The Unification Church:
Unification Church beliefs are based on Moon’s book, Divine Principle, and draw from the Bible as well as Asian traditions. These beliefs include a universal God; in the creation of a literal Kingdom of Heaven on earth; the universal salvation of all people, good and evil as well as living and dead; that Jesus did not come to die; and that the second coming of Christ is a man born in Korea in the early 20th century. This Messiah is believed by Unificationists to be Sun Myung Moon.
That’s right, boys and girls, Ingrid’s case study on the superiority of hymns on the radio above other types of Christian music is that it gives aid and comfort to the Moonies! Now, my first thought was to give Ingrid the benefit of the doubt, that she missed the Unification Church reference. However, I then read in her next paragraph:
Those like this person who labors alone in a basement, getting paid to wrap flowers in night hours for the Unification Church, are being pointed to the truth of the Bible through the airwaves. [emphasis mine]
So, it’s now obvious that she read this and repeated it on purpose. This brings up all sorts of questions - ones like “If Slice can’t discern the difference between the Moonies and the Christian Church, why should we trust what is says about Rick Warren, the emerging church and other targets of its slander?” Really.
So, the next time you see one or more Moonies handing out flowers on a street corner or in the terminal of the airport you’re traveling through, remember that VCY America, host of Slice of Laodicea, is the Moony station of choice.
And when you do so, also consider that perhaps it would be better to leave true biblical discernment in the hands of professionals.
Like Ravi Zacharias.
[NOTE: I believe that ALL types of music can and do honor God, and that no one style/type is superior over another. There are a large number of hymns I love, so don’t take this as me “dissing” them.]
HT: Rick Frueh
____________________
UPDATE: As expected, there is a certain crowd that is pathologically incapable of understanding nuance and humor. As such, they’ve taken this article seriously, rather than as a demonstration of absurdity by being absurd. So, I will briefly explain.
This is an article of satire. (look it up)
Do I actually believe that Ingrid supports (or approves of) the Unification Church?
Please.
I believe this as much as I believe that Rick Warren denies the gospel.
That such folks can’t “discern” the difference between a straw man argument they like and one they don’t speaks in FAR LOUDER volume than anything I could write.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 am
Thank you SO much for the link Rick. I do my best not to read Slice, so I probably would have skipped this one.
Perhaps they should incorporate this into their next ad campaign:
VCY AMERICA: The choice of four out of five Moonies.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:23 am
I think a charitable reading of Ingrid’s piece is she believes she is reaching this woman through the power of hymns.
Not that Ingrid doesn’t know what the unification church is but rather is pleased to be reaching a non-believer through the hymns…
You all would know her intentions better than I probably would but that would be my understanding on first reading.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 am
Actually she refers to them as “dear brothers and sisters in Christ” so that blows my theory. Nevermind.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 am
Crazy.
Somebody should find out if Ingrid thinks the Washington Times or Insight magazine are valid news sources, because that would be really funny.
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:39 am
This week we are featuring the Album “The Hymns of Wesley” as sung by the Rev. Sun Yung Moon. We are so thankful for men like Moon who haven’t succombed to the avalanche of modern drivel that passes for music.
Someone once said, “You can’t make this stuff up!”
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:56 am
in keeping with my sad history….
bool Saved = (Hymns || FleshlyService) ? true : false;
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:02 am
Your reference to Ravi (who brought me to tears Sunday morning) got me to thinking. Many hymns, even ones written out by SOL, do not mention the name of Jesus. Check out Amazing Grace! John Newton - apostate! They say the same type of things as Ravi’s general prayer.
Do a search of SOLs written hymns and many are without Jesus’ name. And what do you say about the classical pieces Mrs. Schlueter touts when they have no words? Are they ashamed of Jesus? And why is the flag and the Statue of Liberty on the website of VCY when the founders were too apostate to use the name of Jesus in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?
When you make every issue a “Custer’s Last Stand” you run the risk of your biased hypocrisy being exposed. Having the flag and Statue of Liberty on a Christian site is compromise at best and idolatry at worst. (sorry, I couldn’t help myself)
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 am
Besides which, Hymns are often VERY different in theology to each other. I can remember at Christmas time one hymn was severly Calvnistic then the next VERY Arminian. I was thinking..”Do they actually read the words to make sure the believe this?”
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:29 am
At least New Zealand has Christ’s Church as one of its capitals!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:22 am
To be fair i think her piece moves on from the person in the Unification church , to another person who as been recently widowed…That she says of the Unification member “is hearing biblical truths through the show” makes it clear she doesn’t agree with them..
A little rich of me i know, but i just think its badly written…
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:52 am
A couple of things. I think a charitable reading of it would be that she both believes she is edifying this person (she refers to the notes she receives as “touching” and places it in the context of being one among many who have no comfort from anyone else) and reaching this person with truth. However, at the same time Ingrid has ridiculed church’s efforts to reach those with that same truth through modern music and other efforts that vary only in style as “conforming to the world” based on how it looks and who is listening to it. If we apply that same measuring stick then the hymns she believes are fundamentally different in reality are not and fail in the same way. She has also criticized stylistic changes as being ineffective and producing shallow Christians at best. It seems the hymns her dad plays at night don’t even do that.
This is less an issue of the hymns and more an issue of Ingrid’s own evaluations condemning the things she trumpets.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 am
If we were an ODM, from here through eternity, every time we quoted Slice, we would have to include adjectives linking it to the Moonies:
VCY America: The Officially Endorsed Radio Station of the Unification Church…
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 am
The logic here is flawless.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. First abortion. Now the moonies. And since the Pastor and the Voice are cronies, I am sure they support each other’s heresies. APOSTATE! APOSTATE! APOSTATE!
Iggy’s gonna love this one.
jerry
VCY America: The Officially Endorsed Radio Station of the Unification Church…
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:21 am
So, let me understand this. Ingrid is quick to judge and condemn Ravi Zacharias, Rick Warren and many others that they water down the gospel and do not take opportunity to promote Jesus.
Yet, here she does not take the opportunity to contrast the true Jesus with the cult leader who claims to be the Messiah or second coming of Jesus, and instead uses this time to promote her radio station.
Hmmm…. I am reminded of a scripture.
Truly sad,
Oh…. yeah I almost forgot.
In Jesus Name,
iggy
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:42 am
What is so palpably sad in all of this is that Ingrid can’t discern the simple truth that Chris has recognized:
I am so reminded of this observation:
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:49 am
[…] has now gone so far as to promote Rev Moon who claims to be the second coming of Jesus Christ. CRN.info was a help (I know they are the enemy!) in that they captured this heretical abomination. Just in […]
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 am
hmmm….
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:21 am
you need tp update your post. I almost did an article about this last night. Go to the VYC link and watch the movie. It announce says
Moonies AND Contemplative Spirituality! She’s obviously connected to Satan himself… I can prove it with a diagram
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:25 am
After reading this post on SoL I also read Ingrid as promoting the music as an outreach to the Unification Church.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:27 am
There is no doubt that Mrs. Schlueter’s point was that hymns were far superior in “to be pointed to the love of the Good Shepherd who never leaves his broken sheep to suffer alone.” However my point still stands. Many hymns do not use the name of Jesus. Is it not inconsistent to trumpet hymns without Christ while labeling others apostate for “God the Father” prayers? I would think that hymns could be more justified as evangelistic than prayers.
But it just struck me that this lady who works for the Unification Church is so blessed by VCY. Let me propose this:
If a modern Christian music station printed a letter from a Unification Churc h worker who said she loved their music SOL would pronounce that station apostate and say that “the case is seen to be water-tight and the argument sound since this is a deductive argument whereby all the premises are true, and the argument flow is valid”.
And in her opening, she addresses the thoughts of “hip, healthy young people” who criticise that music. What do you call a person who says the same thing about their music but takes offense when it is done to her music?
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 am
Sorry, I can’t resist, so here goes.
These will be my headlines for the coming here, posted all over the internet, regardless of what Ingrid really meant to say, why she said what she said, or where her heart was when she said it - it all makes absolutely no difference. So, here you go Ingrid:
“VCY America and Ecumenism”
“Ingrid Schlueter: Heretic or Christian Sister?”
“Why Ingrid Schlueter Has Critics”
“Ingrid Schlueter continues to deceive the unwary”
“Ingrid Schlueter Promotes and Endorses Rev. Moon’s Unification Church”
“Ingrid Schlueter Connections - Rev. Moon”
“Cult Education Forum: Destructive Radio Shows - VCY America”
“False Prophets & Teachers: Ingrid Schlueter”
“A Little Leaven: VCY America’s Broadcasts = Steady Diet of Cult Support”
“Ingrid Schlueter and VCY America: Rev. Moon’s Unification Church is Christian and Moonies are Brothers and Sisters”
“VCY America and Ingrid Schlueter Deny the Gospel”
“IRREFUTABLE LOGICAL PROOF THAT SCHLUETER IS AN APOSTATE HERETIC” [see chart]
Goodness, I am running out of space. I can keep this up for years.
HEY! I actually have something to do with my life now!!!! And it makes me feel all warm and cozy inside — all self-righteous and purposeful as if my life really has meaning!!
I’ll never be the same. Thank you, Ingrid, thank you! I can just keep attacking you now that I have this golden little snippet from you. And people all over — GASP — will actually listen to me. GOD BLESS THE INTERNET.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:34 am
OK Richard, you are having way too much fun. How about this:
When a paid employee of the Unification Church expresses her love for the music ministry on VCY it just proves the station is offering nothing but fluff!
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 am
Yeah… I guarantee you that if a Buddhist endorsed Rob Bell, it would be on every blog known to the ODMs.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 am
Rick,
You’re right.
But I mean, the irony of it all is just too too too much. That someone like Ingrid would for so many years toot her horn as this discerner, watchman on the wall, defender of the faith, etc etc etc and then print a letter like that! It’s just too much.
I found myself just blinking at the page in disbelief. Of all the groups out there - she “endorses” one the most obvious, blatant, non-Christian groups wherein the leader calls himself the MESSIAH and says Jesus failed!! Again, there’s just no words.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 am
I’ve seen a number of posts and comments on ODM sites lamenting the fact that ministries have found favor with the worldly… which is proof of apostasy… “if the world likes you, ya ain’t in Christ” (or so the argument goes).
As we have seen though, arguments are applied selectively.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:45 am
I think it’s cool that a Moonie (if the woman is one, she just may work for them as an employee) listen to Christian music.
I wish the ODM’s would rejoice over other methodologies as well.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:50 am
It’s like a junior astronomer who constantly trashes a vast majority of PhD astronomers over minor trivia and then turns around and identifies Ursa Major as Orion.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 am
Oooh, ooohh, I have more now:
“Ingrid Schlueter - Religious Pluralism - Where is the gospel?”
“Ingrid Schlueter’s Ecumenical Broadcasts”
“Ingrid Schlueter Endorses Rev. Sun Myung Moon”
“The VCY America Pluralism Cult”
“Sun Myung Moon, Ingrid Schlueter - Their Connection and What That Means”
“Moon Planted, Schlueter Watered”
______________________
AND FUTURE ARTICLES ONCE SCHLUETER RESPONDS:
“Ingrid Schlueter’s Failed Attempt At Distancing Herself From Rev. Moon”
“Ingrid Schlueter tries to Explain Herself”
“VCY America: More Excuses”
Goodness, it just keeps getting better and better.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:54 am
Of course SOL now highlighted the words “truth of the Bible”. But the point remains, it is hypocritical to say that because this woman listens and likes your music it is a sign that you are reaching people, but when lost people like modern Christian music it is a sign of compromise.
The entire thing is comical and of course gets under their skin because they don’t see that all of us are compromisers on some level. It must be tedious to have to defend yourself and your reputation. And even when you are wrong their is a valid reason, it is not your fault!
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:58 am
“Moon Planted, Schlueter Watered”
I love it.
“VCY announces Unification flower drive!”
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:58 am
But it still includes the Moonie and the widow in:
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:59 am
Yes Neil, I agree. If a Unification Church member doesn’t HATE and REVILE Ingrid, then it’s very very clear that she is not preaching the gospel and she is catering not just to the world, but to apostates and heretics!!
“’If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you.’” John15:18
“Remember, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves; so be cunning as serpents and yet harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:16
“You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Matthew 10:22
And from her own lips: “Jesus Christ himself stated that the world will hate those who follow Him, not applaud them” (INGRID SCHLUETER, ““Hannah Montana”: I Do it All For Jesus,” http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?cat=9 )
LOGICALLY, given her own words, Ingrid is not a follower of Jesus.
R. Abanes
PS This is just too easy.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Remember, this woman said she donates to the station.
“Sen. Grassley opens investigation into VCY/Moon connection.”
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
LoL. Okay, Rick. We’re friends now, officially.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 am
Thats good, Richard. However being my friend has its ups and downs - ask around!
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 am
Hmmmm, let’s see. Person A is ministering to Person B. Person A holds a set theological system (as we all do) and Person B is involved in theology that is wrong. However, Person B likes what he or she hears form Person A. Does it follow that Person A is teaching false things because this is so? No and this is how Ministers minister isn’t it?
Now along comes one who for some reason wants to tear Person A down and uses the ministry to Person B as a club to attack Person A using the theological differences to infer that Person A teaches heresy or is at least a hypocrite.
My, my isn’t this a classic Straw Man Fallacy argument?
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 am
Mike, you missed the entire point. Mrs. Schuelter would strongly condemn, and has, music ministries that worldly people liked. And if a person from the Unification Church said she liked listening to Rick Warren, well, I believe the word apostate would be used simply based on the same set of circumstances.
That is biased.
BTW - I am person C- !
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:24 am
Ingrid, we agree . . . So why can’t we agree on one simple little truth:
???
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:24 am
Mike,
Perhaps if Ingrid hadn’t in the past condemned ministries that appeals to those outside of the church in order to spread the truth of the gospel you could defend her with integrity.
If this were an abortionist who enjoyed the musical stylings of Relient K would you still be applauding the DJ? Somehow, I don’t think so.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 am
Mike,
Do you honestly believe that we think Ingrid is teaching the gospel of Moon? Really?
It is quite possible, writing for the publication that you do, that you’ve not picked up on the tongue-in-cheek nature of the article.
To be a bit more blunt: If you can recognize the straw man here (that Ingrid is a Moonie sympathizer), why can you not see it in most of the articles aimed in the opposite direction on CRN, AM and Slice?
It seems like you’re the one practicing selective ‘discernment’.
[Additionally, I think referring to a Moonie as a “sister in Christ” probably deserves comment somewhere on a scale of ‘discernment’.]
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 am
And I do agree that music ministries through the night with old time hymns are very valuable. That is not the issue.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 am
Chris,
Articles like this make me wonder about your motivation in calling for charity to others, for example, to people such as Ravi Zacharias.
Do you really think that Ingrid believes that those who follow the teachings of the Unification church are true believers in Jesus Christ? If not (and I can’t see how you would come to that conclusion) what is the purpose of your article?
A simple paragraph break would have made it clear that she has no such belief. Here is what she wrote, with an inserted paragraph break:
Wouldn’t if have been kinder to write to Ingrid and say, “Um, Ingrid, how about a paragraph break there?” It would have taken a lot less of your time.
I’m sure you could site examples of Ingrid’s uncharitability that would give you an excuse for an article such as this. But since when are we to used others real or supposed uncharitability as our own guide?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:35 am
I’m a bit surprised that hip, healthy Christians were even aware of VCY. Although I’m pleased to learn that Ingrid’s father is able to minister to elderly shut-ins through a common taste in music.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 am
Amy,
See Chris L’s explanatory comment that appears above yours.
This post wasn’t a criticism of what Ingrid did or believes in this case. It was a criticism of how she has excoriated others in the past. She has set up a measuring stick that she herself can’t measure up to.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
Mike,
Our point exactly, we’re all glad to see you agree…
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:41 am
Amy,
You should also comment the same complaint on the CRN Supports Abortion post…
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:42 am
Excerpted from my previous comment:
I’m just measuring Ingrid with the stick she’s provided us with. The reason I categorize it as ‘tongue-in-cheek’ is because I’ve consistently said that such a measuring stick is bogus. Now, I’m just demonstrating it…
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:43 am
“Do you really think that Ingrid believes that those who follow the teachings of the Unification church are true believers in Jesus Christ?”
No.
Do you really believe Rick Warren DENIES the gospel of Jesus Christ?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:46 am
Amy,
Well, if Rob Bell is fair game for Ingrid to take shots at because he has an audience with the Dalai Lama, then by her own logic she is accountable for having an audience with a member the Unification Church.
Sometime the best way to disprove absurdity is by being absurd.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:47 am
FTW THIS is my point.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:48 am
Phil - I do not consider those two events as congruous. There are more mirrored examples.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:01 am
((((Welll, if Rob Bell is fair game for Ingrid to take shots at because he has an audience with the Dalai Lama, then by her own logic she is accountable for having an audience with a member the Unification Church.
Sometime the best way to disprove absurdity is by demonstrating it))))
..
I thought Slice’s all argument wasn’t the meeting/or who listens per se, but what’s said to the listener?
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:02 am
When Jim from Old Truth constructed a satirical website complete with humorous names etc. most of us found it very humorous. Some people have no sense of humor. I am periodically saying satirical things about Chris Lyons and Tim and others. Like I said before, it must be tedious to feel the compulsion to defend yourself.
I do find it admirable that men like Bell and Warren and others do not seem to take much time in defending themselves. There is something to be said for that if you are not afraid to say something positive about them.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:02 am
If you go back and check, there were articles about this particular meeting weeks/months before it actually occurred…
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:03 am
Both Ingrid and the anonymous coward known only as editor (and could be Ingrid herself echoing what she wrote on SoL) failed to discern the point of this post.
If they can’t discern simple satire what makes anyone think they’re capable of discerning entire systems of theology?
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:13 am
Does this quote from the past have some irony here?
“Hmm, and I wonder if a sense of humor must be surgically removed in order to write for/sympathize with the watchers of the ODM’s…”
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
Also, we will see the commitment to teh truth that both Ingrid and the editor have based on how they react to this article. If they update their articles to accurately represent what Chris L was communicating then there’s at least a modicum of respect for the truth, otherwise… well how did Ingrid put it? Hate trumps love, and in this case, truth.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 am
I wonder if you guys know that VCY is ministering the “moonie” by giving him the real Gospel?
I also do believe Hymns are superior to any other form of praise and worship music, but not all hymns. Some are downright horrible as far as theology goes. However, the reason I believe Hymns are superior is that they aren’t about us. The good ones are all about God not us. They speak of His glory and mercy and grace. If a contemporary song can do that then I think that would be great. However, what usually happens is that the focus become reversed. People focus on the band or the singer, etc.
Worship is about God, not us. That is why our worship should reflect that.
Have a great holiday weekend.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Mike: If a contemporary song can do that then I think that would be great.
RA: “IF”? How long of a list do you want?
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
To imply that all modern worship music is all about us is just showing your ignorance of a lot of the genre. Listen to some Matt Redman, Chris Tomlin, David Crowder, or a lot of the more popular writers of the day and try to back this up.
There are certainly modern songs that are more focused on the imminence of God rather than His transcendence, but the same could be said for hymns as well. Both aspects of God are biblical. Read the Psalms. A lot of them are talking about God’s greatness, but a lot of them are the writer crying out for God to intervene in situations and to draw near.
This may surprise you, but I really don’t think God enjoys hearing theology in a hymn that much. How is a hymn that expounds theology glorifying to God. Ironically, those are about us.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:38 am
You almost got it, Mike.
Rather, I was inferring that either a) she has no discernment for posting a comment by a moonie, seeming to refer to him/her as a “brother/sister in Christ”; or b) she actually supports the Unification Church.
Do I really believe this? No.
This is a parallel to a number of situations (”Rick Warren denies the gospel”, “Rob Bell is a universalist who supports the Dali Lama”, “Granger Church has sold out because it has a series that uses Spiderman movie clips”, etc., etc.). 99% of her externalist claims hold as much water as the notion that VCY America is an arm of the Unification Church.
That one can see it when one agrees with it, but not when one doesn’t, though IS a reflection of discernment…
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:41 am
So, a) its about the words, and b) it’s about the way they are conveyed.
In reality, this is independent of style (hymns vs. choruses vs. P&W music), then, and hymns hold no more superiority than other forms.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:57 am
Hymns? Hymns? Whatever in the world did Christians do before Wesley brothers and the Reformation before that? Could it be that even those most beloved sacred hymns were at one time new and frowned upon - or could it be that music actually changes over time? Nahhh, can’t be! Peter, James, and John MUST have been singing something aking to A Mighty Bullwark, right?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Bulwark? What’s a bulwark?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
This is loving criticism? Noooo… you sound like a child on the playground making fun of a child that doesn’t quite fit in, bullies trying to pump up their egos by making fun of other kids that don’t fit their view of what kids should look like or how they should act. I assume that you all are older than elementary age, but this diatribe makes me question that. I read Slice and don’t always agree with everything she says, but none of it deserves such a put down as this. Mr. Abanes, I read your book on Harry Potter and appreciated all you had to say. I thought it was very well done. But I was saddened to realize that you, too, are a part of this playground bullying. Making fun of fellow believers is not spiritual maturity, no more than making fun of kids on the playground is a grown up thing to do. It may be a temptation that we all face at some points in our life, but it is also one that the Holy Spirit can give us the strength to say “no” to and I would encourage you to consider that this may be what you need to do. From what I have read here in the past, over a year ago, and from what I’ve seen today, this site has not “grown up” at all. I think Ingrid is closer to fulfilling the following verse than are you. Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night. You are sitting in “the seat of the mockers.” You can say this is satire and all in good fun, but it looks & feels no different than kids making fun of other kids on the playground, on the bus or wherever else they can get away with it. Before you make fun of me too, seriously consider what I have said.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
That aspect has already been acknowledged - so what’s you point?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Linda,
Welcome! A point of clarification - we may mock, but we leave the bullying to the ODM’s. If you read the pages on our mission and how we strive to be different I think you’ll understand better.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Quotes like this used in defense of Ingrid is the whole reason Chris L used Satire to begin with.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
If hymns are superior… what makes a song a hymn?
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Not being a her?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Worship does not ride upon the wings of any music style. And in fact pride about any style reduces the level of worship in anyone. I have seen people singing hymns with a spirit of worship, but I have seen that also in contemporary worship settings as well. True worship comes from the heart, even if expressed in less than theologically perfect verbiage.
If there is one area in which pride or juddgment should never have any place it is in worship. It is incongruous with the act itself. The most theologically pristine hymn, sung by the most committed preacher, and accompanied by a life long missionary pianist, still needs all of God’s grace to be accepted.
God is not impressed with words, He ponders the heart.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Linda,
First, in regards to exegetical meaning of “mocking”, I’d refer you to Mark Driscoll’s sermon on Humor from earlier this year. He does an excellent job describing the differences between “mockery” (as in Psalm 1) and the use of humor for correction (as practiced by Jesus on numerous occasions).
All I am trying to do is illustrate for Ingrid the yardstick she has chosen to use to “bully” thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of other believers, based upon her powers of ‘discernment’. By using the same yardstick with her, it is my hope to fulfil the purpose of a work of satire.
From the wikipedia article on the subject:
Mockery, as noted in Psalm, has no such intent. If, the next time Ingrid decides to mock (in the truest sense of the word) Ravi Zacharias for his choice of wording on a prayer - or some other perceived sin (real or imagined) on the part of a believer - IF this particular instance of having been measured with her own yard stick prevents her from spewing vitriol at another believer, then the purpose of this article will have been fulfilled…
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
WOW - Ingrid says we’re a hate site!
What does that make her?
(rhetorical only)
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
“Before you make fun of me too, seriously consider what I have said.”
Linda, you have come perilously close to an unbiblical rebuke of an elder (Tim, Richard). You also do not seem to have an entire understanding of the issue which goes further than this one post. This site obviously compromises your spiritual balance, I would suggest an immediate fast.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Really?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Linda: This is loving criticism?
RA: Sister, I think the problem here might be that you aren’t familiar with: 1) any of us; 2) the overarching issues we’ve been dealing with here for a long time; 3) the people we’ve been discussing and why; and 4) the somewhat cryptic/insider allusions we are making that are clear to all of us.
As a result, it may sound like we are being less than Christian in our approach. But the truth is that we are responding in a way that for all of us points out a long list of things we’ve been wrestling with for a while. It’s almost as if there was a private discussion going on in a room and you’ve walked in and can’t really see what exactly is being said.
If you want to try to catch up, you might want read through a few of the older threads and posts - might be a long, long read. In short, it is here that we discuss ODMs (so-called online discernment ministries) and their tendencies to build their accusations and attacks against others on:
slander
guilt by association
half-truths
logic leaps
inept research
faulty reasoning
selective quoting of “enemies”
lack of true discernment
ignorance
an unloving spirit
Bible twisting
misinformation
narrow-mindedness
blatant lies
……and other issues that mark their so-called ministries as a mockery of true discernment and apologetics. Sooooo, when one of these discerners does something like use a favorable quote by a MOONIE of all people, it sort of opens up a trmendous can of worms.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Linda - Here is a not so isolated example of an unordained woman mocking an ordained elder of some proven history:
“Having learned that Dr. Bob Jones III is continuing his love-in with Mitt Romney,”
You want genuine and “I mean it” mocking? There it is, and it has many sisters on that same site.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Linda,
I will add that I could compile for you a lengthy list of some of the most nasty, mean-spirited, hate-filled examples of true MOCKERY by these ODMs that would make your hair curl (or go straight, whichever the case may be).
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
RICK — I sent you an email - answer me!!!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Which is basically the reason this site exists on the first place…
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“You’re the hater!”
“No - YOU are!”
“Oh no, you post modern dog, I’m the one who loves!”
“Loves who? You don’t know what love is!”
There once was a land named blog…
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Poor Linda. Do the scriptures about confronting a brother who offends, exhorting one another, somehow not apply if the person being confronted is an elder and the person doing the confronting is a woman?
Rick, how about telling the elders here that I agree with Linda’s admonitions. (Is that good enough? Or do I need to ask my husband to ask you this?)
Chris you may note that not only did Mike and I take your article seriously (although I also thought after writing my comment that your article could be pure sarcasm) but Mark and Andy did as well. So I guess you ungracious update refers to them as well:
Sure hope they (Mark and Andy) aren’t (weren’t) your buddies.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Huh?!?
Was I asleep that day/week/whatever? Dialog requires ongoing discussion, give & take, etc. I’m not sure when I’ve really received the time of day in my private or public communications for dialogue.
Now, were I actually serious in believing that Ingrid was supporting the unification church, I would have written to her. Which brings to mind Amy’s question:
Yes, it would have. But - in the satirical spirit of the piece - I contacted and dialogued with Ingrid before writing this article as many times as she and Ken have dialogued with Rob Bell, Rick Warren and Bill Hybels for ALL of their articles.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Amy,
Just to point out the logical fallacy in your thinking here:
All American citizens are human beings, but not all human beings are American citizens.
So, when I wrote:
I linked to the primary group I was thinking of (the one to which you self-selected, as well), just to avoid such confusion.
So - not everyone who missed the satire is necessarily ‘pathologically incapable of understanding nuance and humor’, but everyone who is so ‘incapable’ would miss the satire.
Apples and oranges, Amy - both are fruit, but one is not the other…
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Chris L.,
Yeah - the claim that they have tried to dialogue is a real laugher. In fact, I have asked Ken Silva repeatedly to open a dialogue on various issues, but so far he has refused.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
By dialogue, I assume the editor means telling us how wrong we are continually…
Now, I’m not a rocket scientist or anything, but I didn’t think the point of Chris’ satire was that heavily veiled. It seems to me that these verses explain it all:
If you hold everyone to a ridiculous standard, you shouldn’t be surprised to be held to that same standard. Ask yourself this, how long would it take for the discernmentalists to jump on Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, or Rob Bell if they posted a letter that put a member of the Unification Church in a positive light? Faster than you can say “Moonie”, most likely…
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
“Rick, how about telling the elders here that I agree with Linda’s admonitions. (Is that good enough? Or do I need to ask my husband to ask you this?)”
We already have seen your unscriptural internet verbiage as you alluded to in this mocking fashion. It may seem unimportant to you, but it deserves more than your careless remark. Your husband is welcome to comment.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Phil, I almost included that in the article, but thought it would make the point a little too obviously… I guess I was wrong.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Chris,
All jousting aside.
“Before we go on, it should also be noted that the author trumpets, with great pride, her vastly over-inflated ability of “discernment”. With this “gift”, she is able to spitefully trash all sorts of Christian brothers and sisters - Rick Warren, Ravi Zacharias, Rob Bell, Bill Hybels, Mark Driscoll and many more - along with casting aspersions at entire bodies of believers all over the world. For instance, her magnified powers of ‘discernment’ have recently been raking Ravi Zacharias…”
“As many readers may know, one of the frequent “discernmentalist” sites we take to task for injurious action toward the Body of Christ is Slice of Laodicea (SoL). Slice’s primary mode of operation is to place itself in a position of sanctimonious judgment over anyone/anything its primary author deems to fall short of her shallow, externalist view of Christianity.”
This appears to put you on the guilty stand of the very thing you accuse Ingrid. How does that work?
You accuse her of being judgmental and sanctimonious but explain this post.
DT
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
“Yes, it would have. But - in the satirical spirit of the piece - …”
A number of responders to your above article have indicated by their responses they took this article seriously, as did I. I “read” nor “sensed” any satire in it. Speaking for myself alone, it may have been your intention, but it did not come across as such. I remember a man who went to King David telling him how he had killed David’s enemy. He could have claimed it as mere satire. David, as I would have done, did not take it as satire. You know the ending of that story.
“…I contacted and dialogued with Ingrid before writing this article as many times as she and Ken have dialogued with Rob Bell, Rick Warren and Bill Hybels for ALL of their articles.”
Oh, by your words, it is O.K. for you do something wrong “because” Ingrid in your opinion did something wrong? I thought, perhaps wrongly, a piece of this article was to show us how “not” to do something wrong. Maybe, just maybe, that too was satire.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I have given up smoking, drinking, cursing, and other questionable things so God can continue a work of sanctimony in me.
Oh wait, I mean sanctified.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
DT - have you not read any of the comments?
It’s called satire. It’s called pointing out the absurd by being absurd. It’s called measuring her with the same ridiculous canon by which she measures others.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
DT,
So, is Ingrid infallible? That’s what it sounds like you’re arguing. I mean no one questions Ingrid’s or Ken’s right to post what they do, but certainly posting their poorly researched and often slanderous pieces leaves them open for peer review and checks and balances. Otherwise, they might as well be operating with papal authority. Which is the height of irony, given how they generally feel about Catholics.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
No, he could not have claimed that it was satire, because it was true!
One of the problems with satire is that it is not always ‘discernable’ as such to those not familiar with the context of the overarching subject being criticized.
For instance, A Modest Proposal is considered to be the greatest work of satire in existence. If you are not familiar with the context of it, though, it appears to be quite horrifying (the author suggests that the solution to Irish overpopulation is a systematic sale of 80% of Irish children to the British upper class as food).
So, too, in this case, you were likely led here - with no overarching context - and you were horrified. Why? Because you were confronted with EXACTLY the same kind of article as Ingrid commonly writes about a plethora of Christians, but it was aimed at Ingrid this time.
NOBODY who writes for this site has believed for even a second that Ingrid sympathizes with the Unification Church. However, the Guilt-by-Association built in the OP is EXACTLY the type of tripe Ingrid trucks in. Sadly, Ingrid seems to believe most of what she regularly spews about Rick Warren, Granger Church, Mars Hill Church (both of them), etc.
Now, if you’re looking for an example of King David being confronted in a similar fashion as we’re trying to confront Ingrid, Ken & Company, look no farther than the prophet Nathan. He told David a story and got him to react to it a particular way - then, he said “Gotcha” and interpreted the story for David.
That is exactly what I’ve tried to do here. And - as expected - Ingrid, Ken, Mike, DT and others have responded as if the article were serious and egregious in its accusations at which point I made it more clear that it was satire - using exactly the same methods employed by those who objected to them.
My apologies that you did not understand, but I don’t know how to make it any clearer…
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Did Kitty just suggest that everyone who didn’t understand this is satirical gets to kill Chris L?
That seems a little severe?
Or was she being satirical?
And if she was being satirical and I took it as real do I get to kill her now?
But wait, that was satire when she suggested that, so I guess not.
My head hurts.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
(Chris L)
So now you’re the judge of who belongs to such a group?
Neil says
How does your judging who is pathologically incapable of understanding humour somehow fit into some mission that shows that you are striving to be “different?” Why are such statements not “bullying?” How is your taking a thoughtful article by Ingrid about some of the “least of those among us” and turning it into something to be made fun of not “bullying?”
How are Rick’s statements not regarded as bullying to any and all females who point out error here? Statements such as
Even those of us who are nuance-challenged can pick up the arrogance and derogatory attitude behind that statement.
If you all are so “different” than ODM’s, why must you keep pointing it out?
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
“Did Kitty just suggest that everyone who didn’t understand this is satirical gets to kill Chris L?”
(hand held up high) Oh pick me, please, I’ll do it, please, please!!
“My head hurts.”
And your face?
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
This article and the responses to it are another proof of the hypocrisy that is on this site. Point to your mission statement all you want, Neil et.al. You are doing the very same thing you accuse the ODM’s of doing. And, in fact, you are worse because you recognize it as wrong and then justify using the same methods.
Carlos, I am most disappointed in you and your Itodyaso site (Online Discernment Mafia)
You all are hypocritical, especially in your treatment of Linda and Amy. You who say women ought to have the right to minister, when they call you on a sin that you have committed, accuse them of rebuking an elder?
Why can’t Chris just admit he didn’t have all the facts when he wrote this article? Oh that would be admitting he was just like the ODM’s. This person is disabled, working in the Unification Church, wrapping flowers. The person never says anything about agreeing with the Church, or its teachings.
This isn’t satire. It is slander. And don’t you DARE say “we get to do it because the ODM’s do it” When you do, I will say you are full of ****~ and you can quote me on that. I can say it, because Tony Jones claims that it is a direct translation of Scatalon. Since Tony Jones does it, I can do it. WHAT A RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT
I am very disappointed with ya’ll. Just take down the mission statement. It will solve the moral dilemma you should find yourself in, if you were honest.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Amy - the last sentence has some satire, but my comment is based purely on my Biblical conviction. Everyone here knows that. Many women comment here without being confronted. It is only when someone like Linda brings an air of correctioal superiority that I bring a Biblical view of gender order to the forum.
OK, the fast comment was a little satirical and yet contained some good advice which once in a while we all take on some sites.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Rick is a commentor, and we do not edit comments. If you find him offensive take that up with him, but please try and maintain the differentiation between posts ans comments.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
“Dialog requires ongoing discussion, give & take, etc. I’m not sure when I’ve really received the time of day in my private or public communications for dialogue.”
Um, since I’m on mderation and my comments normally put on well after the fact, I will attempt to reply and say I feel exactly the same way: “I’m not sure when I’ve really received the time of day in my private or public communications for dialogue.”
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
“You all are hypocritical, especially in your treatment of Linda and Amy. You who say women ought to have the right to minister, when they call you on a sin that you have committed, accuse them of rebuking an elder?”
That is solely me not them.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
More adventures in missing the point…
Why is being absurd to point out absurdity such a hard concept to grasp?
Neil