Thank You Rick Warren . . .
Posted by JohnD on May 23rd, 2008
2008
May 23
Here is a Christian brother who is willing to consider both sides of the story and at the same time, acknowledge that there is no value in demonizing those who we might disagree with on doctrinal issues or even styles of music.
I for one look forward to the ongoing dialogue that will come from sources like this one.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
I will be interested in seeing how this goes. Good for Rick, Chris and Bob!
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Chris Rosebrough takes the
highChristian road. This does not go unnoticed, Chris, and no one expects you to alter your observations but it sure is a breath of fresh air to receive your tone.God bless you in this.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Love it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I have interacted with Chris on many occasions, and it has never been good. However, as I have already stated, I was impressed by him even attending the conference. Now, I am 2x impressed that he met with Warren face to face. And here is 3x I am impressed that he posted this thread.
I am reserving judgment, until I see exactly what he has to say about a number of issues that would be associated with his attendance.
Here are the highlights of SOME of my past interactions with him.
I am hoping and praying for the best.
And no, I do not define that as CR thinking Warren is awesome, or believing as Warren believes, or feeling that everything about Warren is perfect (he sez rolling his eyes) — I just wanted to make that clear before that was posted by someone. LoL.
R. Abanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Paranoia, fear and apprehension are already beginning to rear their ugly heads over at Chris Rosebrough’s website:
- “Be careful Chris. He has charmed and flattered others in the past who opposed him. Some of them only realized much later that they had been deceived” - followed up by biblical warnings to avoid heretics.
- “But like the others have commented, I was thinking to myself ‘don’t go to the dark side!’ Keep faithful to what is true.”
These kinds of warnings are strikingly reminiscent of the warnings Dave Hunt told me he had received from his staff before going to Saddleback in 2005. He told me they were terribly worried that he would be deceived into going Warren’s way.
Then Hunt told me personally at the conference that he had indeed been wrong about Warren and prayed with me that God would continue to use Warren in a mighty way - just as God had already been using him.
We parted ways, and sadly, when Hunt got back home, the pressure was apparently too great for him to be upfront about what he’d saw/learned about Warren at the conference - and to this day he is still selling “resources” he knows are filled with misrepresentations and errors.
See my article on Hunt - Dave Hunt: The Convenience of Compromise
Let’s see what Chris R. decides to do.
RAbanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Richard - I do not look for utopia, neither do I anticipate Chris R. changing his mind. Just changing his tone and the method of engagement would be great.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Rick,
Yeah, that’d at least be nice.
RA
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
That is what I have always appreciated about Chris. He is always willing to listen, and agree to disagree at times. Having spoken to Chris on occasion, I found him very pleasant , but direct.
Funny….I think that is how christians are supposed to be…ODM’s could take a lesson from Chris.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
John D: “there is no value in demonizing those who we might disagree with on doctrinal issues or even styles of music.”
John D, I agree with you on one level. I also agree it is totally unnecessary and Unchristian to demonize someone as many do with Mr. Warren. It is really not my business to judge or critique a church I don’t attend which minds their own business, so to speak, but RW ** exports ** his brand of church. He heads a multi, multi million dollar business and sells his product to anyone who will buy it and is very pro-active and aggressive in doing so. So there is a difference in the scrutiny, evaluation and comment that is appropriate.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Another warning issued to Chris R. over at his website to make sure he’s careful about Warren working his Jedi mind tricks on Rosebrough:
“I only hoped and prayed that his niceness would not be a distraction from the real issue.”
R. Abanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I too am impressed with the spirit of Chris Rosebrough’s blog piece, and his gracious attitude toward Rick Warren in the meeting he had with him. My opinion on the ministry and message of Warren has been clearly documented and I have seen nothing to lead me to change my conclusions. But as I learned in the past year or so, it is possible to speak the truth, in love. I pray for Rick Warren and call on him to abandon the ambiguity of the Purpose Driven philosophy and to boldly, clearly and consistently present the Gospel.
Another observation, it will be interesting to see if Chris and Bob DeWaay, who I also admire and respect greatly, will receive the same condemnation and ridicule that I, did after meeting with Mark Driscoll? I pray not.
It is upsetting to read the cynical and somewhat sarcastic attitude exhibited here on this site, (by some, not all) toward those like Chris, who after showing great humility and integrity by committing the time and resource to meet with someone like Warren, are still negatively criticized. One of the grand arguments have been that those who disagree with the likes of Warren, Hybels or others, criticize without taking the time to speak with these people personally, or worse yet, without doing enough study or research in what they believe and practice. Well, I did it on several occasions and Chris has as well, and for some, it’s still not enough.
We can disagree till the cows come home, yet still exhibit grace in our speech and actions. Yet it appears in many instances, that the goal by some is simply to pick a fight, just for the sake of a fight.
While I disagree sometimes with Nathan or Rick on some things for example, I have no doubt that they are brothers, and I respect their opinion and encouragement, many times offered to me personally aside from public blogs or radio programs.
So as I have asked myself, and offered through my public ministry, where is the grace, compassion and mercy we are called to exhibit? Does that go just for the so-called “discernment ministries” or for us all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:33 pm
As I have said regarding Chris, “I was impressed by him even attending the conference. Now, I am 2x impressed that he met with Warren face to face. And here is 3x I am impressed that he posted this thread.”
I am eager to hear his thoughts and perhaps interact with him in a manner far more productive and positive than anything we have been able to enjoy in the past.
R. Abanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Mr. Corley,
I so totally agree which is why I was so impressed with your reaching out to Driscoll and why I wanted to acknowledge Chris R. for his gracious tone with Warren. I suspect that Chris, like you will still have some areas of concern but that doesn’t mean we all can’t respect each other and have a civil conversation.
It is my hope and prayer that all sides of this conversation will benefit from actually hearing what others are trying to say and in the final analysis the “salt and light” quality of our witness will be enhanced and strengthened by the whole Body of Christ working together as Paul envisioned in 1 Cor. 12.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Mike - you are to be commended for a Christian spirit about Driscoll and you willingnees to go to meet him. I wonder if there will ever be a time where brothers and sisters can disagree and yet maintain a spirit of grace and love.
I do not anticipate Chris R.’s view to change one iota and it will probably be substantiated by his trip. That is his right and we should respect it. But at least the tone and the personal invectives will be diluted because he has met the flesh and blood brother.
Perhaps some of these seeds may be watered and bring forth fruit. We all could use some charity which Paul said was everything. If we are afraid that the loving and charitable personalities of men like Warren will compromise our views then our views are wrong. Perhaps God can use men like that to temper, not change, our views as we get to see a more panoramic view of the men with whom we have issues.
As I have said before, Rick Warren is also a husband, a father, a grandfather?, a friend, and a follower of Christ. The PDL is not the totality of his personhood.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:40 pm
RICK: “The PDL is not the totality of his personhood.”
Agreed and point well taken.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Something very intersting is transpiring over at Chris Rosebrough’s blog - i.e, he’s not attacking Warren fast enough and peeps are getting nervous. Another warning just issued from someone else - the infamous Tim Wirth:
“Warren for a short time had the same mesmerizing affect on Dave Hunt a couple years ago. . . . my prayer is that it wont damage your ministry long term.”
Grim, indeed.
“
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
He’s great! Warren seems to be a great guy with a lot of joy. And his and Kay’s heart for Africa is Christlike. Chris will notchange, but maybe he sees Rick in a different light.
I don’t expect Chris to start wearing Hawaiian shirts!
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:25 pm
It’s going to be interesting - on a number of levels to see what happens after he posts whatever he posts. And Rick, did you pick up on the conspiratorial mindset creeping in a bit in this comment from Tim Wirth: “why would you not make everything public remember Jesus did nothing in secret. Now I’m sure Rick Warren does many things in secret but again Jesus Himself did not.”
OOoooohhhhh, I love secrets.
R. Abanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 pm
“Now I’m sure Rick Warren does many things in secret”
OK, please provide your evidence that makes you sure. That seems to go against the very definition of “secret”.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Rick,
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. How in the world does Tim Wirth knew for SURE Warren does “many things” in secret. We have some very interesting mindsets afoot.
Oh, and here is yet ANOTHER very disturbing warning just posted against Rosebrough. I mean, it’s so over the top, I’m not entirely sure whether this guy is joking or if he’s serious:
S.S. to Rosebrough: “Are you and Pastor DeWaay ambassadors to God’s elect from Rick Warren? Will you reconcile Christ’s church to this deciever? Have you gone out from among us?”
He can’t be serious, Rick. Can he?
RAbanes
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I am a glorious knight, arrayed in truth, and set for battle. I have delivered God’s terms to the wicked serf Warren and if wishes to be spared he must capitulate quickly or earn the rewards of his deeds.
I have been comissioned from the Castle Elect and I ride the noble steed Ambassador. Make no mistake, the King is with me and He demands the tribute of repentance from Warren and his tribe. I speak proudly, my liege, and your desires are my command.
I have gone out but I will return promenading with the captured colors of deception. A trophy of praise to be sure, and with that I take my leave to one day win the praise of all the vassals and the hand of Lady Guinevere.
Melodrama - I love it!
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Funny thing Richard. You point out my many sins on another website and then you come over here and gossip.
Funny how scripture seems to apply to everyone but you in your many comments.
Tim Wirth
May 24th, 2008 at 8:35 am
TIM: …you point out my many sins on another website and then you come over here and gossip.
RA: Gossip? Now you’ve redefined that, too. You really need to just give up trying to stick me with all these accusations, Tim. If not, next time, you might as well try: “He beats his neighbor’s puppy,” or “He was a dancer so he’s gay,” or perhaps, “the letters in his name add up to 13, and in a Tarot deck, the 13th card is Death (of the Major Arcana), so he’s an occult murderer.” You might as well.
But seriously, Tim, all good kidding aside, last time I checked, no one was defining gossip as posting to an Internet blog the happenings of what’s going on at another Internet blog. It’s an interesting definition, however, that you’ve invented for yourself there. (sigh).
Best to ya,
buh-bye
May 24th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Rick,
You’re just a “glorious knight”? HA HA!! I am a Knight’s Templar!
May 24th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Richard Abanes: “I am a Knight’s Templar!”
Knight’s Templar = Ancient, Secretive and Militant wing of Catholic Church = accused of witchcraft and idolatry.
I knew it! Richard is a heretic AND a warlock! (and probably a member of the Illuminati along with RW).
May 24th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Who isn’t a member of the illuminati?
May 24th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Richard you are a master of manipulating and bate and switch. You even managed to turn the words secret into private so to through other off what is really being stated. Then you immediatly switch into immature teenage mode. This is very serious business when you seek to deceive people the way you do.
How do I know Rick Warren does things in secret?
O come on just look at the facts that for some reason Chris does not want to go public with what went on within the meeting.
If your boss Rick Warren was such a stand up guy why would Chris not be willing to share what went on in the meeting?
If anything Rick should have encouraged both Pastor Dewaay and Chris to go public with all those hard questions Rick answered.
Both Chris and Bob have been very public with their concerns about Warren. Why not be public with the answers Rick Warren gave to to the hard questions?
Im really not interested on how were their hotel rooms or anything like that.
What really amazes me about you Richard is your well honed skill to adapt to any crowd you are playing to. (Just as your boss and true master does).
You talk differently over here and at Phoenix Preacher than you do at U Tube or other places.
You have taken lying to a true art form.
But hey.
Let the Lord rebuke you,
Tim Wirth
May 24th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I would tell you if I was a member of the group that shall not be named but as far as I am concerned it doesn’t exist and if it did and I was a part of the group that doesn’t exist and I told you I’d have to commit a felony. Now, I’m off to go fishing with bait and I readily admit I have no idea what bate is.
May 24th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Warren has been open about almost anything. His ministry has been scrutinized beyond belief. His answers to “hard” questions will not satisfy almost anyone who disagrees with him but they seem right to him. I have issues with some of the simplistic teachings, however, when people say he denies the gospel they have lost all credibility and cannot have a place at the discussion.
No, let the Lord rebuke YOU!
No - YOU, YOU, YOU!!
OK, let the Lord rebuke us all, we could use it!
May 24th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Tim: Richard you are a master of manipulating and bate and switch.
RA: I think this is your way of referring to valid points I make for which you have no good answer.
________
TIM: This is very serious business when you seek to deceive people the way you do.
RA: “Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.” (Prov. 26:5)
________
TIM: If your boss Rick Warren was such a stand up guy why would Chris not be willing to share what went on in the meeting?
RA: Hmmmm…..let’s see, maybe……because they closed Warren’s pay off to Chris with a blood sacrifice? And all that screaming on the recording would sound very unfavorable?
_______
TIM: What really amazes me about you Richard is your well honed skill to adapt to any crowd you are playing to. (Just as your boss and true master does).
RA: You should see me in Hawaii surrounded by a bunch of Dolphins.
________
TIM: You talk differently over here and at Phoenix Preacher than you do at U Tube or other places.
RA: Actually, I don’t talk differently at all. I am a multi-faceted human being with depth, different sides, varying moods, and voices. I don’t speak with a child the same way i speak to a child. I don’t talk to someone who barely speaks English the way I talk to an American. When trying to communicate to an unbeliever, it’s different than when trying to make a point with a member of your own spiritual family. Etc etc etc. See? Unlike some people, I just don’t hit everything with a sledge hammer.
______
TIM: You have taken lying to a true art form.
RA: And haven’t YET shown a single lie by me. Interesting. Talk about lying. Sad, Tim. Really sad.
RAbanes
May 24th, 2008 at 10:45 am
“You have taken lying to a true art form.”
No, but Richard has taken commenting to an art form. His comments have his own personal sign and I would like whatever medicine he takes for energy!
I love the fact that some are already roasting Chris because he hasn’t skewered Warren yet and they agreed to have some off the record conversations. See, some in the animal kingdom would rather feast on road kill than at the Outback!
May 24th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Rick: I would like whatever medicine he takes for energy!
RA: Didn’t you know? I take no medicine for my energy. The unearthly energy that courses through my body and soul, thus enabling me to defend the heretic Warren, comes from the ancient dark energy crystal given to me by the AntiChrist - the crystal that was formed in ages past, before the time of legend, before the time lore, in the fires of Mordor, beneath the Black Mountain, from where the Evil Sauron once ruled all the land.
…….oh, and of course, RED BULL and Jet-Alert tabs.
May 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Where’s Frodo when you need him?
May 24th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Can anyone PLEASE tell me if this guy is serious? Or is he joking?
He’s saying that Chris Rosebrough might be receiving mind control from Saddleback and that Saddleback might have been looking over his shoulder when he was writing up is public post about thanking Rick Warren.
“Consider this–Rosebrough has an undergraduate degree in theology from Concordia, Irvine and an MBA from Pepperdine. The California contingent may be able to shed more light on the caliber of these institutions, but I understand them to be quite high. With that in mind, look for the number of times this learned author butchers his pronouns (I count 4) and see if you don’t think he may have been under some kind of mind control when he wrote this.”
Please read through the comments:
http://larrytdog.livejournal.com/64671.html#cutid1
I’m of the opinion he MUST be joking. Then again…….
RA
May 24th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I think Rick gave Chris the Vulcan Mind Meld.
June 1st, 2008 at 6:17 am
R. Abanes has said of the meeting,”I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically. I am hoping that many individuals will see that this is all little more than an issue of ministry philosophy, rather than the emergence of some bizarre Warren Smith-esk, conspiratorial, one-world, New Age religion with Warren playing the lead Pide Piper!”
I am a good friend of Pastor DeWaay and attend his church. Bob DeWaay’s position on Rick Warren has not changed. Bob Dewaay never hated Rick Warren, he had concerns about his teaching - a ministry philisophy that doesn’t preach the gospel or confess Christ. This is not a minor issue of insignificance. Bob’s concern about Rick Warren was and still is that Rick Warren does not preach the gospel, not that he doesn’t believe it. Here is a statement prepared by Pastor DeWaay concerning the issues raised in this blog. K. Jentoft
May 31, 2008
I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.
At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”
Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.
So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.
I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.
Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.
To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.
These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?
I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.
Bob DeWaay
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:37 am
My response to Bob Dewaay’s most recent comments in his letter, can be found at Phoenix preacher as
MY OPEN LETTER TO BOB DEWAAY
R. Abanes