On a personal note
This post is more personal than that of the standard fare here at .info but I think there are some applicable learnings for current affairs buzzing in the blogosphere.
I’ve been estranged from my family (mom, step-dad, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc…) for the better part of 9 years. Without giving all of the details; suffice it to say I did many things wrong as a teenager and my parents did many things wrong as parents. Neither party was able to forgive. Because of the strain I chose to close off communication. One time about 5 years ago I did contact my Mom in an attempt to live out the verse “As much depends on you be at peace with all people”. In a God given moment of humility I was able to say “Please forgive me” to which my Mom responded with “You’ve made your bed now lie in it” and slammed down the phone. In that moment, having honored God with his command to seek forgiveness, I had peace. The bridge to my family wasn’t reopened that day but I continued to trust that “All things work to the good for those of love Christ”.
Fast Forward 4 years. This past Christmas I received a Christmas card in the mail from my Aunt. Stunned that I got a Christmas card from her I didn’t open it. My wife however did. Inside was a personal note that read “We miss you guys being a part of the family give us a call. P.S. (my cousin) is getting married in May and she would love for you guys and the girls to come” My immediate response was I’m not going to the wedding. I questioned everything… “Who’s gonna be there”; “What’s their motivation for inviting me”; “What if so and so is there”; etc…
But then God began to nudge me. He reminded me of the call of a Christian. We are to be ministers of reconciliation; by our Love they will know us; as much depends on you be at peace with all people; Bless those who curse you. On and on scripture came in rapid fire pattern until I was literally on my knees humbled by the words of my Savior. Now I knew I had to go to that wedding to honor God and the commitment I made to follow him wherever leads.
Recently Saddleback Church issued personal notes to those in the blogosphere that have been most critical of what Rick Warren is doing; inviting them to a future conference. To say that this has caused a little questioning of motives would be an understatement. Quite frankly their (the bloggers) thoughts haven’t varied much from the thoughts that I had when I was invited to the wedding of my cousin. What is very different however is the public manner in which they are airing those thoughts.
A few weeks ago Ingrid wrote a scathing response essentially stomping on the graciousness of Rick Warren to pay for the trip. Recently Chris Rosebrough of Extreme Theology wrote a more balanced response to his invite and in fact accepted the invite. But again questioned the motives of the invitation. In fairness to Chris he has since removed that post stating “There is a commitment that I need to honor and I want to respect the wishes of my host.” Which shows character and perhaps a willingness to take a “wait and see” approach.
Others however (who haven’t received invites) have been blogging and commenting voraciously; ascribing all kinds of conspiracy theories to Rick and Co.
Purpose Drivel had this to say.
Wow. I have to wonder what the spin will be on this one. I would be torn. Do I go and let him twist the event to his own advantage? Or do I decline and let him publicly say “they wouldn’t play nice, look we even invited them for ‘dialogue’!”
I guess if I could have a recording team there to record the meeting, I would be OK with it. Then nothing could be edited for slant/spin purposes without it being exposed by the opposing team.
Jim Bublitz of Old Truth in the Extreme Theology comments (the old post)
I‘ve been hearing about all of the invites to this event for the past week and have wondered what’s really behind it all. Is Warren finally starting to see that the blog world is a great detriment to his methods, and this is his way of doing damage control? Surely he’s not naive enough to imagine that he’s going to change the minds of people like you and Pastor Bob DeWaay who is also there and has written a book against Warren’s teachings. Or maybe Warren thinks he’s going to shower you with gifts and kill you with kindness (so to speak) to the point where you are going to think of him as “Uncle Rick” from now on; somebody you just can’t speak poorly about. I just don’t know, but will be interested in your opinions. It just doesn’t make sense.
You’re right Jim; it doesn’t make sense. Why would Rick Warren a heretic invite a fringe group of malcontents to a conference on his dime. I suspect because Rick is wise enough to understand that the caricatures we have in our heads (heretics and malcontents) vary widely from the reality of who people are in real life. Communication is the only thing that will close that gap. Which is exactly what I experienced at my cousins wedding.
Most of my relatives (sans my mom and step-dad) were gracious and affirming of me. Many were able to see the change (Christ) in my life and I was able to say to them that I am where I am today because of Christ. It was a powerful night and my wife, kids, and me were able to witness to my family the grace of Christ. On a very personal note I got to see my Grandfather, whom I assumed was dead. I was able to introduce him to his great grand-daughters and was also able to say good bye (he has cancer and Alzheimer’s and was given only about 2 months to live). Which was a wonderful gift from God in my eyes. Plus all of the caricatures that I had of my family were shattered during the night. In my humanness I would never have expected God to be able to reconcile my family. Sure I still have room to grow and certainly the healing in my family has a long way to go but God is good and able to “work all things to good for those who love Christ”.
Maybe God is calling all of us to that higher ground. Lets not let pride, humanness, or team politics get in the way of that calling.
Grace and Peace to all.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:47 am
I would be more impressed if Warren,without telling anyone, went to them individually, rather than put on a show.
I have had experience with those who simply want to make themselves look magnanimous.
Warren is a showoff.
The ministry of reconciliation is this:
2 Cor 5:
“16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
Men are only reconciled to one another if they are first reconciled to God.
This is why Paul says “as much depends on you” live at peace with everyone.
It isn’t going to happen in every circumstance.
That being said, I pray that it happens for you and your family.
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:47 am
Thanks Chris for sharing. I continue to be surprised by the ingenuity of human pride. Who could have imagined that one Christian could extend a gesture of kindness and the other Christians would not only arbitrarily assign sinister motives to that gesture, but would find a way to accept self congratualatory accolades for refusing that kindness - and - as an incredible act of gargantuan hubris, they publish the whole carnal mess in an effort to let others know how faithful they are to God.
Just when I thought I had seen it all Jim adds this humanistic gem.
I am grateful now to know that there are some men’s minds that are so pristine, so erudite, and so sinless that they could never ever be deceived in any way. Let us not ever be so niave to ever think that. Talk about holding men’s persons in admiration.
Like vultures in the middle of the road pecking at a dead animal, men openly pick apart a man’s motives only pausing long enough to congatulate each other. And in a breathtaking paradox, their necro-feasting just illuminates the dead animal in their own hearts.
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:16 am
Thanks for sharing this. Forgiveness and grace seem greatly lacking in many of the ODM’s. I pray for Jim and others daily that they will also learn to give the grace, mercy and love and learn the power of forgiveness, so that they can truly be ministers of reconciliation instead of death and condemnation.
My heart is saddened when I read their words at times. I wonder that blessings and curses come from the same well as the speak out of the abundance of their heart.
iggy
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:20 am
Not knowing any other details of this invitation from Rick Warren to a conference, I wonder if Rick will give equal (or some) speaking time to the invited critics for other attendees to hear (some for the first time) other views of PDL?
Usually conference speakers have their trip expenses paid by the host person or company.
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
Tim - apples and oranges. Will MacArthur let me speak at the Shepherd’s Conference. I would gladly speak on the free will of man!
This conference is not about a presenting of criticism and Rick’s generous offer to critics was meant at least to show that he wanted to be open to everyone. I suggest Macarthur foolow suit. Oh yea…
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:35 am
“I suspect because Rick is wise enough to understand that the caricatures we have in our heads (heretics and malcontents) vary widely from the reality of who people are in real life.”
It is easier to hate and criticize someone from a distance, then to meet them up close and personal - and see them as a human being. One of the things that enables people to hate public figures so readily is how public figures stop becoming real people. They become objects/images that are viewed coldly as the “other,” rather than as human beings. An object is much easier to hate/attack than a real person standing there looking you in the eye - especially when your facts, arguments, etc. leave a lot to be desired.
Also, when someone doesn’t take the time to actually know/meet someone, they can invent all kinds of stories and bizarre scenarios about them. I see this happening with Rick Warren, and sadly, now with myself for simply disagreeing with his critics on a number of issues. It no longer matters what I actually believe - a whole new image, story, and person is created by the people who NEED me to be a certain way or NEED me to believe certain things. That’s an easy thing to do when you hide behind a computer screen - but it would n’t be so simply if I were looking them in the eye and telling them about my love for Christ and scripture and truth.
The comments about ulterior motives, sinister plans, and an unsavory agenda surrounding Warren’s invitation are part of the whole image the critics have created of Warren as a lying, two-faced, deceptive, God-denying, compromising tool of Satan in these Last Days, who is working at the behest of the AntiChrist. This is the image of Warren to be maintained.
I similar image has been created by the critics for me as a financially paid-off, arrogant, greedy, compromising, propaganda minister working for my diabolic master after having rejected the truth of scripture and my original calling as an apologist.
It’s all so very sad.
Warren’s invitation was, from all I could see, a sincere effort to reach out to people. he has a pastor’s heart and it hurts him to hear so many untruths being spread across the Internet about his faith, his ministry, his teachings, and his work for God. I’m sure what he thought he’d accomplish, but in the end, only two people out of a long long list of invites showed up.
Sigh. So much for reconciliation.
R. Abanes
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:36 am
TB,
And I sure that the critics would pay for Warren to speak their churches, then, right? I don’t see any reason for allowing a critic to speak at a conference like that. I’m sure they would find a reason not to attend still.
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:37 am
Oh, and the specific critics session where all of us were supposed to sit down and talk things out in love, peace, kindness, gentleness, and Christian prayer never happened and was canceled. Golden opportunity = lost.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:02 am
It breaks my heart to see how some Christians treat other Christians.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 am
Chris P. thank you for your prayers.
The first part of the verse you quoted says:
But prior to that verse you state:
Should you not then “regard” Rick W. on the fruit in his ministry and life and not merely by what he “appears” to be in the flesh?
Furthermore what of those who post fleshly opinions in opposition to Rick W., how should one “regard” them?
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:22 am
Yeah, I knew you know Ken. Thanks for confirming that though.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:34 am
OK Gentlemen,
I would be much more sympathetic to your criticisms of how those mean ole ODMs are being unduly suspicious and trite with the seemingly unassailable Mr. Warren except for the fact that the PDL industry has hired a high priced public relations firm. Now please tell me why should ANY Christian ministry care one iota about anyone’s perception to the degree of using ministry resources to fund a public relations firm when, in the absolute sense, they really have only an audience of One and to my understanding of Scripture should only be concerned about His approval? Only business (for profit or not-for-profit) need PR firms gentlemen, not ministries. We need to look at what people “do” as well as what they “say”.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
Chris,
That is a WONDERFUL testimony! Thanks for encouraging me with that great example of the power of Christ availble to us when we obey. Wow! Thanks again.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 am
The phrase “thinks no evil”when it concerns love, is exactly what is being abrogated here. There is no doctrine, just a hospitable gesture. Warren’s use of a public relations firm is irrelevant to this gesture.
I am sure that all the loud accusatory voices are pristine and without any motivation when they do acts of kindness. Do you have a teaching manual on how to achieve perfection in our motives?
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Rick,
For me the use of a PR firm goes to motive, which again, ** for me ** is one of the factors I take into consideration when appraising any of the spin coming out of the PDL business machine in California. “Love thinks no evil” must be assessed with “be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove”. I will readily admit that you don’t see much “dovely” gentleness with many of the ODMS. You will just have to believe me when I say I hold no personal animosity towards Mr. Warren, but having personally experienced the fallout of Mr. Warren’s business enterprise’s methodologies **and** having thoroughly researched his writings, again for me, anything coming ex cathedra from the Vatican of the West is highly suspect to me. I, and others, will continue to warn anyone who will listen of the inherent dangers of the PDL enterprise as the Lord grants opportunity and the topic comes up. And Mr. Warren’s PR firm will no doubt continue to combat all us naysayers as they are (probably) highly paid to do.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Chris,
Your willingness to be open and transparent about the struggles within your own life does you credit, and reveals the level of depth and maturity to which the Lord has lead you. Family dysfunction is so difficult to deal with and awkward to explain, especially to people who have never been there or experienced it first hand (or even second hand).
Praise God that you were able to make this step towards reconciliation, and that you were able to stand as a witness to the work and grace of Christ in you to your family. I will send up some prayers that the Lord will use that experience to further open the doors and calm the waters related to you and your mother and step father.
I understand the pain and frustration that comes with that kind of baggage. I think that our Father must have been proud that you listened to the Spirit and took that step, as awkward as it may have been.
Grace and Peace,
Scott
Verum Serum
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Rick,
In all seriousness, the concept of “love thinks no evil” would be a good discussion topic. I would be interested in seeing how you work this out in a practial way in the life of a Christian in light of the Scripture’s additional statements on discernment.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
It is sad. I think the one thing you have to realize that a lot of these critics assume Warren isn’t really a Christian, so that pretty much gives them free reign to say whatever they want about him.
CRN posted an article today entitled “Rick Warren Denies the Gospel”, so to me that title alone is saying the people at CRN don’t believe Warren is a Christian. How can a true Christian deny the Gospel?
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Aw shucks Joe, I didn’t know you cared so much to draw me into a conversation that has zero to do with me. I love you too.
*shaking my head rapidly from side to side*
Egads, now look at how fast my nose is growing!
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
JH: …. the seemingly unassailable Mr. Warren
RA: NO ONE said he is unassailable. Strawman.
________
JH: PDL industry has hired a high priced public relations firm.
RA: LoL. Are you serious? I didn’t know a PR firm was condemned in scripture. Is that somewhere in Ezeziel or Habbakuk? In today’s image-conscious, media-driven, techno-advanced world, hiring a PR firm is like hiring a plumber or a photographer.
________
JH: why should ANY Christian ministry care one iota about anyone’s perception to the degree of using ministry resources to fund a public relations firm when, in the absolute sense, they really have only an audience of One and to my understanding of Scripture
RA: The image that ANY person/organization/church sends out to the public matters.
- Do you ever print flyers inviting people to Easter services? Which color do you use - pink, yellow, blue, green? That’s image, my friend.
- What FONT do you use to print up your bulletins for church - calligraphy, bold, fancy, typewriter? That’s image, too.
- What music is played over the telephone while people are on hold: contemporary Christian, classical, old hymns, vocals, or just instrumental? Yup = image again.
You and others act as if anything not specifically used before, oh….. say, 1950, is of the devil. Hmmm, the ODMs better disconnect their Internet connections. Oh wait, then they wouldn’t be able to say much of anything to anyone.
And speaking of PR. Ever hire someone to build your website using the latest technology with images, side bars, buttons, Activ-X, and other pieces of eye candy? Let’s all say it together — image. The ODMs certainly care a lot about the public’s perception of them when they decide exactly how they want their websites to look.
________
JH: when appraising any of the spin coming out of the PDL business machine in California.
RA: Talk about spin. Wow. You haven’t clue as to how money is spent daily to help this community and to reach out across the world to assist those in desperate need.
________
JH: but having personally experienced the fallout of Mr. Warren’s business enterprise’s methodologies **and** having thoroughly researched his writings, again for me, anything coming ex cathedra from the Vatican of the West is highly suspect to me…..
RA: Another strawman, albeit in a rather backhanded way, by equating Rick Warren with some kind of Pope. LoL. I am certainly amazed on an ongoing basis.
You’ve personalized this as a crusade against who you think ruined two churches you attended. As I’ve said before, you’ve turned your anger against the church government of your old churches against Warren. He’s become your scapegoat, imho. He’s the person you blame for those churches going in a direction you personally did not want them to go. It could have just as easily been a book, a tape teaching series, or church plan from someone else that your leadership adopted. If it had come from some pastor in New York named Ben Carter, then you would be irate about Ben Carter and be here continuing “to warn anyone who will listen of the inherent dangers of” his enterprise.
Sigh,
R. Abanes
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
PHIL: I think the one thing you have to realize that a lot of these critics assume Warren isn’t really a Christian, so that pretty much gives them free reign to say whatever they want about him.
RA: Agreed. That’s part of the whole making someone an object and creating a story about them that feeds the agenda (see my above post). The same has happened to me - I am no longer a Christian to many of these ODMs, so I am free game. There is no longer any need to treat me as a brother, because I am an enemy of Christ and the cross. It makes it all a lot easier.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
John,
Are you willing to extend that logic to any action which is meant to improve image? For example, dressing up, buying professional equipment to produce a radio show, paying a web designer and all the other stuff that goes into making Christians and ministries look better.
If not, why is hiring a PR firm any different?
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Warren is a pragmatist. The PR firm seems consistent with that. The “love thinks no evil” applies to heart motives, not doctrinal discernment. Since we cannot accurately know Warren’s heart, we should think evil of any hospitable gestures.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“should not”
Correction.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:42 pm
RICK: Warren is a pragmatist.
RA: I’ve heard this words “pragmatist,” “pragmatic,” and “pragmatism” used again and again in connection to Warren as if they meant “adulterer,” “drunk,” or “pornographer.”
What in the world is wrong with being pragmatic in life? Am I missing some passage in 1 Kings or Revelation where God condemns taking “a practical approach to problems” or taking “a practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems”? I thought we were supposed to love God with all of our heart, soul, MIND, and strength.
I find it terrifically odd that some Christians seem to equate being spiritual or truly trusting God with throwing practical thinking to the wind! I see this nowhere in scripture. Being practical/pragmatic in certain situations does NOT exclude relying on God or trusting the Holy Spirit.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:42 pm
WOW - my impressions are so diametrically opposed… amazement at the heartfelt testimony of God’s grace on the part of Chris… and amazement at the callous responses of others.
Simply amazing!
Neil
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
As far as Warrne is concerned he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t… by the ODM’s that is
Neil
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Richard - you carved out a word in my comment and springboarded into a rant missing completely the tone and tenor of my observation. I did not say pragmatist in a negative way, many pastors are. And from another side, any remark that isn’t openly complimentary is met with a defense treatise about Rick Warren.
The subject was judging people’s motives and I thought I had defended Warren’s pragamatism in having a PR agency. I wouldn’t have it, but I understand.
That’s all, Richard. Deep breaths, my friend.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:00 pm
It is funny how people throw that word around so much. We’re all pragmatic to some degree, aren’t we. Shoot, Warren’s critics are pragmatic. Writing a blog about something you don’t like about someone is certainly pragmatic. I mean if they weren’t pragamatic every article would be about pink bunnies and cuddly ducklings or something of the like.
I’m just suspicious that there are a lot of people who are downright jealous of people like Rick Warren, and they hide it in their own self-righteous indignation.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 pm
That was a rant???? Hmm, I thought it was simply asking for a clarification. I was really curious and asking, not accusing. And I ‘carved” out that word, because…er….that’s the word I had a question about.
I think, TBH, it was you who missed the tenor of MY post. I wasn’t making any comment or implying anything except explaining my confusion over that word I keep seeing and asking why it’s seen so often as problematic.
____
Rick: And from another side, any remark that isn’t openly complimentary is met with a defense treatise about Rick Warren.
RA: Yeah, you are seriously way off base. Soooo seriously. You completely mistook my words to the max.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Drat if i had planned things better i could of got a free trip to your great country blastttttttttt
Woeeee Woeee Rick’s an apostate (Virgin airline if your reading Rick)
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Rick said he did not mean “pragmatic” as a negative.
That sould settle it.
Neil
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Friends,
Going back to that very first post where Chris P tossed out that lengthy passage of Scripture. Two points.
First, it seems to me that God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, pulled out all the stops to reconcile us to himself. I think Romans said something about God not sparing his own Son. PT Forsyth said it this way, “That God spared not his own Son is a greater shock to the natural conscience than the collapse of civilisation in blood would be. For civilisation may deserve to collapse, if only because it crucified the Son of God, and crucified him afresh. But if God spared not His own Son, He will spare no historic convulsion needfull for His kingdom. And if the unspared Son neither complained nor challenged, but praised and hallowed the Father’s Name, we may worship and bow the head.” (The Justification of God)
My point is this: If God spared nothing to redeem us and reconcile us, how can you fault Warren for doing the same, that is, pulling out all the stops to be reconciled to other believers in the Body of Christ? Look, I’m no fan of Purpose anything, but the fact of the matter is this: Warren is not answerable to ANY of us. Before his own Master will he stand and his Master is able to make him stand. Warren knows this and the truth is, fan or not, Warren has never denied Christ as Savior or Lord or as the exclusive mediator of our salvation.
Second, what right do any of us have to use Scripture to justify ourselves? Scripture is not ‘ours’ to justify us. I love how Christians bandy about the Word of God like so many arrows and mortar rounds aimed at other believers. “My verse says this,” “Well, my verse says that.” Shame on all of us! I love how Scripture is perfectly ours when it condemns others and perfectly not when it condemns us. Easy it is to forget that belong to God Scripture does (said with a Yoda voice). That is, it is his word to ALL OF US not our word to or against one another. We all stand under the the judgment and authority and scrutiny of Scripture and none of us has a right to so carelessly throw it around like it is ours to do so.
The worst kind of Christians use Scripture to justify their own angst and dislike and judgment. Sorry, Chris P., but Scripture is not yours in that way. It is none of ours in that way.
jerry
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Chris, (author of post)
Thank you for your transparency in this matter. It speaks volumes about your trust in Christ’s grace. My heart is for you brother; I will suffer with you in prayer this afternoon. My heart is breaking right now for all the fractured and broken relationships in this world. I cannot tell you how sad I am right now: The kids I work with at the school, families in churches, churches (!), brothers in Christ. I know this is sort of beside the point of your post, but this is probably one of the best posts I have ever read here. “Surely we can change. Surely we can change.” (DC*B)
your friend,
jerry
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Friends,
Without trying to be too self-promoting I wrote a post the other day for my blog. Day 7, Colossians 1:7-8, that deals with love in the Spirit. I won’t put a link, but if you want some further insight into what I’m driving at, well, it’s there on the front page.
jerry
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Neil: Rick said he did not mean “pragmatic” as a negative.
RA: Yes, I understand that. I know. I was hoping for Rick or someone else to explain to me how ODMs see it as negative. That’s really all I was trying to ask.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Some of us see Rick’s gospel presentations as overly pragmatic and equational and in Rick’s own words designed to elicit a positive response. That is the “negative” part.
The pragmatism of running a church is on some level in every church. That is not the pragmatism that I see as “negative”.
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Rick,
Thank you for explaining. Then, is this not an issue of purely subjective opinion with regard to where the line should be drawn between:
1. acceptable pragmatism (which still allows for reliance on the Holy Spirit)
2. unacceptable pragmatism (where God in the equation is forgotten).
Is this accurate? If so, how is anyone supposed to make that call, and how can anyone who actually does make that call refer to it as the “biblical” measure of what is and what is not acceptable?
It sounds to me like we are right back at the critics/ODMS elevating their own subjective opinions to the level of biblical authority, when in reality, the Bible does not address the issues being discussed - it’s all personal choices.
RAbanes
PS This might be a very good place of discussion that can be linked to everything from not just preaching the gospel, but also to: manner of dress, styles of music, holiday celebrations, ministry planning, etc etc etc
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Let me just say that I did NOT get an invite. And I am frankly offended by that.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:08 pm
In the end, everthing is subjective since human processing is required. And Paul says we will give account for our own works and not anyone else’s which is subjectivity in judgment.
As I have said openly and honestly, everyone discerns with a certain amount of subjectivity. Our ability to discern has been shaped by the subjectivity of our parents, our upbringing, our mental capacity, our emotional makeup, our personality, and a host of other things.
So each of us must approach the Word and discern for ourselves God’s truth and apply it. We can do no more or no less. I will suggest, however, that I do not see a calling in the New Testament to use one’s gifts to primarily deconstruct the theologies of others. Even after the Reformation Luther sought Christ personally.
I find that writing about the wonders of Christ is far superior to my writings that are primarily responsive to what I perceive as errors. I have never wept while writing a treatise deconstructing heresies, but many times when I write about Christ and His cross I am emotionally incapacitated.
I guess that should tell me how the Holy Spirit feels about it all.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Richard,
If I may, I might explain what I see as “negative” about pragmatism.
The general consensus regarding the word itself is the idea of doing or using what works best. This can be very good in many areas, and even can be extremely good in ministry. Where I start to have a problem is, due much in part to the ambiguous culture we live in, the term “what works best” is open to way too much discussion.
What then is it that “works”? The pragmatism I see in much of Warren’s teachings and methods is what “works” to not offend; what “works” to bring people in; etc. I see less desire to do and say and most of all believe what “works” for God’s own purposes.
So pragmatism is bad or negative when it is made the driving force of any work a particular method or result that is anything other than repentance and continuing faith exhibited in a dead sole made alive by the Lord.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:20 pm
“dead soul”. NOT dead “sole”. Sorry.
And if anyone is wondering, my shoe is just fine.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:40 pm
I was worried about resurrected fish.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:13 pm
By the way Chris, thanks for sharing your story. It’s a good reminder that Jesus called us love God and love people, that’s ALL people, not just the ones we agree with. Some Christians could honestly care less by this commandment, and I have been hurt by Christians on numerous occasions, as I’m sure many others have. Something really needs to change about that, starting with attitudes.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Richard: “JH: …. the seemingly unassailable Mr. Warren
RA: NO ONE said he is unassailable. Strawman.”
“seemingly (adv) - from appearances alone”
Richard, God gave us adverbs for a reason. Any and all negatives against Mr. Warren are vigorously attacked and rebutted on this site , hince his “seeming unassailability”. Just an observation, not a strawman.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I’m still waiting for John to answer my question.
What’s the difference between hiring a PR firm and hiring a web designer, getting a haircut, or try to lose a few lbs? They’re all designed to do the same thing. Why doesn’t he hold in contempt pretty much everyone involved in every ministry?
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Not all negatives about Warren are vigorously attacked and rebutted - most just poor methods.
Neil
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
RA: LoL. Are you serious? I didn’t know a PR firm was condemned in scripture. Is that somewhere in Ezeziel or Habbakuk? In today’s image-conscious, media-driven, techno-advanced world, hiring a PR firm is like hiring a plumber or a photographer.
Richard, thank you so much for reiterating my point exactly. “Image-conscious, media-driven” describe RW and his progeny to a “T”. Contrast this with Scriptural admonitions about not being concerned with what people think of you.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Luk 6:22 “Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.
Luk 6:26 “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
I will say it again, Who cares what people think? Ministries don’t need PR spin machines, but BUSINESS do and evidently the PDL money machine does. And as this is common place in Christiandom, as you state, it is a sad commentary on our spiritual state IMO and a concise commentary on what is wrong with us today.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Richard: “You and others act as if anything not specifically used before, oh….. say, 1950, is of the devil.”
**Whatever**
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Richard. I’ll let others slide on this site regarding this, but not you on this issue. You, of all people, given your background, know full well the difference between public relations and advertising, and hiring a PR firm vs an Advertising agency.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Handing out fish sandwiches does not seem to be a way to keep people away. (Jesus) Any church that hires a sign company, or uses a printing company, or advertises conferences such as the Shepherd Conference including using hotels, or advertises in the paper, or anything like that is using a PR conduit.
I believe Jesus used a borrowed mule upon which to enter Jerusalem. Was that a Christian mule or secular?
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Tim: I’m still waiting for John to answer my question.
“What’s the difference between hiring a PR firm and hiring a web designer, getting a haircut, or try to lose a few lbs? They’re all designed to do the same thing. Why doesn’t he hold in contempt pretty much everyone involved in every ministry?”
Tim, see my answer to RA above. What you are describing is advertising, not PR. The distinction is real and significant. One involves selling a product or service the other managing perception.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Really? That’s the difference? Advertising is good, PR is bad. Got any verses there? Because I think of a bunch of verses about how members of hte church are supposed to appear to their unbelieving neighbors. Which would be, well, both PR and advertising, if there’s really any difference here.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
John,
You quote verses claiming to show that we must NOT be concerned with what ‘the world’ thinks of the Church, and Christians. I challenge you to balance this with the Scripture showing us that we are to do the complete opposite.
r,
Joe
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Joe,
What verses are you referring to specifically?
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Rick,
Again, the difference in PR and advertising is real and distinctive. (I majored in PR in college so I am speaking from experience). I am not talking about a graphics art company or advertising company you get to print up brochures or coordinate a media blitz for your next skateboarder and extreme sporting extraganza for Christ event (i.e., advertising). Please just step back and ponder why a church or ministry would need a PR comany to spin their image? My answer is they should not. (A personal conviction, not a Biblical absolute). Only entities concerned about loss of revenue need a PR company.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
I agree, John, but I can understand that because Rick is extremely Arminian and he believes you can draw people to the message by any means. I do not fault him for that, my concerns are with the presentation of the message. However people get saved through the PDL conduit and with that I rejoice!