I for one am OFFENDED
Posted by Nathan on May 19th, 2008
2008
May 19
hip-hop beats and entertaining video mixed with theology — Really now? How worldly will we become in our attempt to make God relevant? This is the type of SBRWHTCD (Slowly Becoming Relevant While Holding To Calvin’s Doctrines) I have been telling you about! All this booty-shaking and hussy raising material in the church makes me sick.
sorry Chris, couldn’t resist.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Ha!
May 19th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Paul Washer has become an idol. (American?). The concept of total depravity is Biblically flawed. When God calls people to repent knowing they cannot, is he teasing? If I had shouted to a blind person to see my mother would have punished me.
Man is depraved, but not totally. He has a residual knowledge of God and some men do good works, not works that can redeem or persuade God, but among men they are good. That ear splitting rant was like nc once said, “You’re a piece of crap” theology.
Washer has attained rock star status.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:56 am
“Man is depraved, but not totally.”
Sez who Rick? You?
“Washer has attained rock star status.”
Sez who Rick? You? Envious perhaps, no?
May 19th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Paul Washer to the side……
One does tire of the rhetoric here.i.e. if one does not agree with your arminian view they are a hyper calvinist, or if one believes in a literal second coming one is a dispensionalist, or if one believes in a literal 6 day creation, well they are simply an embarassment and unworthy to enter into the conversation.
How about one is simply scriptural?
Man is totally depraved and is dead in his sins, therefore no longer existing in imago dei; unless of course God is a rebellious and disobedient sinner.
Repentance is a work we do, thus repentance and/or baptism saves no one.
In Acts 2 we have Peter preaching the WORD, and in verse 37 we have men coming to faith,that is, they were cut to the heart, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God……..no???
They ask what shall we do,to which Peter replies repent and be baptized in Jesus name for the forgiveness of sins. Both of these actions are the fruit of having come to saving faith. Men do not repent on their own choice prior to conversion. They then received the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all Truth, (a gnostic notion according to the administrator here)
All works come after faith.This is what James wrote about and what Paul presents in Eph 2 8 thru 10. Who cares if men are capable of an occasional nicety? Matthew 5 verses 43 thru 48. Being NICE is not listed as Spiritual fruit.
If our righteousness is as a menstrual cloth, and a used one at that, then our displaying a dead and currently dying image is irrelevant.
No one seeks God, unless they are redeemed, period.
No one is redeemed, unless they are called, predestined,justified, glorified etc etc
No hint of man doing any of this.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I grew up on this stuff (euphemism for . . . ). I remember going to a Bill Gothard seminar and coming home feeling guilt ridden and hopeless. That guilt ultimately led to my alcoholism.
I am free now, free from the guilt, free from most of the narcissistic introspection that used to dog my every step. I’ve discovered a God who truly forgives me and makes it possible for me to forgive myself. Thank God I don’t have to dwell on me anymore.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
YAY!!! I’ve expanded Rick’s lexicon.
=)
May 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
JohnD,
I’m glad you were able to find your way out.
I didn’t grow in a Calvinist church, but I was at a lot of events that reinforced our worthlessness. I think that Calvinism is so rooted in American Evangelicalism that people who would never call themselves Calvinists still operate under some of its basic assumptions. Plus add to that the influence of Wesleyan perfectionism, and you get a bunch of messed up people.
I think there’s a whole lot of people with a whole lot of guilt that’s been piled on them from the church in one way or another.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I just watched that video.
I think it’s lovely how someone equates the developmental impulses of a irrational, undeveloped child with the intentional evil of a mugger. So much for neuro-science, and cognitive development.
While I agree that we all have the potential to be a Hitler, there is much that goes into a Hitler becoming a “hitler”.
I love how Romans 1:30 is quoted but no mention is made of how Paul is talking about certain people and then clearly says in chapter 2 that the audience he is writing to is no longer that way.
It’s really a lie to say you love the Bible and love God if you fixate on the EEEEE-vuhl and fail to always make sure the redemptive work of Christ goes hand in hand with it.
It’s also un-pastoral and irresponsible.
These people don’t care about evangelism. They are not “evangelical”–even in the best sense of the word–they don’t have any good news.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Those drum beats are frighteningly similar in rhythm, volume, and speed to the drum beats used in African tribal witchcraft rituals, which were in turn transported to the New World and merged in such occult practices as Voodoo and Santeria.
Consequently, it is very very OBVIOUS that Paul Washer, Indy Watchman, and Pastor Ken Silva are actually into the occult and clearly willing to use worldly/anti-Christ methods/music to push their own so-called biblical message.
Ken Silva needs to repent of Voodoo and Santeria!!! Music is crucial and it must be limited to what is biblical!!! What is most alarming is how those beats are usually used to place people into altered states of consciousness, which that video can clearly lead to — especially with how those words hypnotically fade in and out of the screen. So it seems Silva is also into the New Age Movement and the New Spirituality because the New Age is very much connected to Altered States of Consciousness!
REPENT Ken Silva, Christian Research Net, Ingrid, and Paul Washer of your New Age, Occult, New Spirituality, Voodoo-Santeria, worldly video that you’ve made to supposedly preach the gospel.
BE NOT CONFORMED TO THE WORLD
COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YE SEPARATE
WHAT FELLOWSHIP HAS CHRIST WITH SATAN
……..gee, that does feel kinda good. LoL.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
The entire theology has no logic or purpose. The doctrine of unconditional election and limited atonement stands as a fractured foundation for the entire discussion. Who is Washer addressing? The totally depraved cannot receive it or understand and what good does that knowledge accomplish in the elect?
The entire Bible belies that “totally” depreved theology unless you suggest God is s sadist by compelling men to repent and believe who have no capacity to even understand. Like shouting “clean up your room” to a deaf child and sending him to hell when he doesn’t hear you.
The contest is this -
That, my friends, is quite a feat!!!
Aqualung my friend don’t ya start away uneasy,
Ya poor old sot, ya see it’s only me!!
May 19th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Richard,
I hope that was sarcasm!
May 19th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Richard’s comment clearly shows that his sense of humor is still intact contrary to Ken’s assertion.
A classic!
May 19th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Is this about paul washer or the video that someone else put
toguether?
fill me in.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
tee hee hee. i was just trying to see how the other side side felt when they type that kind of stuff. and as i said, it does kinda feel good — it sort of gives you the goosebumps. i can see the attraction. LoL.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
oscar - Paul Washer is the voice in the background disemboweling the congregation.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
” These people don’t care about evangelism. They are not “evangelical”–even in the best sense of the word–they don’t have any good news.”
Can someone explain to me if this kind of message can bring a man to repentance? or just cause him to feel guilty?
May 19th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Can some theologian please explain to me why Jesus said some sinners would receive greater punishment if they all are equally and totally depraved? Are there levels of totality? I love the “common grace” theology as well. A man made term in order to explain away nonCalvinistic realities exhibited in mankind.
I wonder if Calvin majored in the post graduate study of linguistic manipulation and magical word study metamorphosis. In laymen’s terms, when you don’t like the definition of a word - change it! So let me get this straight:
God will give sinners “common grace” so they won’t go completely nuts but He won’t give them salvation grace. I agree with Richard, that’s voodoo!!
May 19th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
That probably comes from the same sick, twisted logic which tries to teach that men are no longer made in the image of God (or that only the regenerate are imago dei), after the fall, despite post-fall references (like Genesis 9:6).
What better way to justify treating fellow human beings inhumanely…
May 19th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
oscar - when people listen to the verbiage communicated by one Paul Washer about the worthless, child raping, and evill all the time essence of man and they say amen and do not fall on their face and weep, what can you call that? And after a preacher dismantles the entire human race as nothing more than breathing pieces of animal refuse, and then people go out for a bite to eat, what can you call that?
Listen to the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus called people to the divine without throwing up on the entire bunch. We indeed are fallen, but what Washer does is theatrical histrionics designed to prove how Calvinistic he is.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I guess paul washer is sick and twisted then. Having no respect to his fellow humans.
i will stop listening to him immediately.
you guys just brought me out of that dark twisted logic.
That dark twisted logic that once brought me to know jesus.
That logic made me realized I was a sinner and unworthy of God grace without him. In him I have found love, peace and forgiveness and most of all joy!.
But no more Paul washer is beign used by satan!!
May 19th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I got saved listening to Billy Graham so I guess I cannot relate. I heard Graham lift up Jesus, that is how I came to faith. But after hearing Washer I see now there is a better way! His rant made me wish I could get saved again.
He expounded one of the five points of Calvinism in a Finneyesque way. I sure he would appreciate that comparison!!
May 19th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I would note that this sick view of imago dei (that only the regenerate are made in the image of God) is more of a hyper-Calvin thing.
As part of his series on doctrine, Mark Driscoll (a Calvinist) covered this issue back in April. You can listen to it here.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I don’t know about the rest of you, but when I was an infant (one of the first images I saw on the clip) I was too busy thinking about sleeping, eating, and p****** to worry about offending God or violating his law.
I agree with whoever said ‘Paul washer is becoming an idol.’ Frankly, I have trouble listening to him because he is rarely happy. I have yet to hear him say anything about grace, joy, love, peace, hope, freedom, etc. He likely has, but man there’s only so much ‘You are a wicked, wicked, wicked person we need to hear.’ I don’t think the apostles spent that much time there.
Ahh…grace!
jerry
May 19th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
So I guess beign a calvinist means you are on the wrong side of the road.
Ever wonder why paul washer is becoming an idol?
Maybe people need to hear it.
MAn!! all those souls save by a Paul washer sermon, don’t know what they are missing by coming to the “Grace”.
Grace is much more fun and loving.
Like we don’t know that God is love and mercyfull.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Many people like Washer preach grace as if they are protecting their particular theological slant of grace. I call their doctrine “Limited Grace” which of course is an oximoron.
In the end grace will be proved to be more expansive than we ever dreamed. To say God creates grace people and non grace people makes God a cosmic solitaire player.
the Universal mind has written you into the Passion Play.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
actually, most of my non-believing friends won’t come to church because they feel like they have messed p their lives too much. Even the evil unregenerate know that they have messed up and are pretty broken. Unfortunately, what they need is the gospel, not a message from washer about how evil they are. People need hope to get out of their depravity.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
nathan,
I was aplying my remarks to non-believers. Yea non-belivers do know they are messed up, but there are also those that actually don’t know. In their hearts they think they are ok as long as they don’t hurt anybody.
I encounter people everyday who say to me ” I am a nice person and never hurt anybody so I am ok, don’t need to go to church”.
Though jesus said:
21F or from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
23 All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’
People need to know that they are sinners and they can find hope in christ.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Sorry nathan I meant ” applying to believer’s “
May 19th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
No, Nathan, that is not enough. You must feel you are disgusting. You must experience Adolf Hitler within you. You must confront your infant raping desires. You must embrace your repugnant and loathsome existance that hides the raging Oedipus inside!!
May 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
No - that’s why I posted the Driscoll sermon which deals with the majority Calvinist perspective on Imago Dei, rather than the hyper-Cal version espoused by Washer, shamma and other intracene persecutors of Christians.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Oscar,
No, being a Calvinist is OK - being an angry Calvinist is not.
I think it’s a bit ironic that for as much as the angry ones point to Romans as their proof-text of choice, they miss the part that says it’s God’s kindness that leads to repentance. A lot of them seem to think it’s His wrath that leads to repentance.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
“So I guess beign a calvinist means you are on the wrong side of the road.”
Yes. Especially when almost every message is a defense treatise of that Holy Grail. People like Washer like to take people by the scruff of the neck and hold their faces in Calvinistic theology. He and that James White would make a great tag team.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Rick,
You lost me.
This will be my last post in this blog.
I leave saddened by what I have read here through the 2 months that i have visited this blog.
I can’t do it no more.
I came here with an open mind and instead I go back to where I came. I try to argue with scripture but that is not enough.
The majority here is the same as the ODM. This is all a cycle.
To me you are all the same. I came to know ken silva and ingrid through you guys. I find you are parallel.
“Ken bashes somebody so I will bash Ken”
” Ingrid didn’t apologized so then I will call her satanic ”
Man you are all the same.
But I pray for all.
I guess you should all feel good about yourselfs since you all have the ” Grace of God” and are able to show ” love ” even to your enemies.
Nice way to spread the gospel!
May 19th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Oscar,
Well, blessings to you, but I don’t think you’re reading the same blog I am. I’ve never seen any of the writers here (or commenters to the best of my knowledge) call anyone Satanic, not have I seen personal attacks. Refuting an idea or even a theology is not an attack.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Hey oscar, I have trod that path but it seems to be a boomerang!
May 19th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Chris PBenny said,Well, I believe in a literal 6 day creation and I’m a contributor here. hmmmm.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
The most convincing argument for “total depravity” is my run-in’s with the ODM…
Funny thing is that “total” does not always mean “total” as “all” does not always mean “all” in the Calvinist camp.
So even in house there is debate… yet ODM’s can’t see that.
iggy
May 19th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
““Man is depraved, but not totally.”
Sez who Rick? You?
“Washer has attained rock star status.”
Sez who Rick? You?
No. Saith me.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I wonder if we were predestined to have this conversation or if it happened of our own free will. (I hope the word ‘free will’ will not get this post dumped into the spam filter.) (I Hope the word predestination will not get me banned from this blog.)
To Oscar,
Sorry you are leaving friend. I too have doubts at times but for me it always comes back to grace and love. If Ingrid and Ken demonstrated love at their blogs for those they disagree with, they would still be on my blogroll and I would still visit their blogs. Loving those we agree with is easy though. It’s loving those with whom we disagree that really speaks volumes about how much we love Jesus, or how much we really know him, or how much we really understand his heart. For all of their spouting of Scripture and theological platitudes, I don’t think they know him very well.
Whenever I think about this site compared with those of Ingrid, Ken, Jim, or the Lighthouse gang, I think about that story that ends this way, “He who has been forgiven much forgives much, and he who has been forgiven little, forgives little.” It is evident how much the people who write this blog have been forgiven. That’s not the case elsewhere. Man, He’s just trying to make us sing, can’t you see that?
Grace,
jerry
May 19th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
There are some writers who would get banned if those words did it
Very poetic - thank you for your thoughts…
May 20th, 2008 at 7:49 am
oscar,
talk about missing the point.
Even if people disagree with Paul Washer’s estimation of human sin, THE POINT IS that all we ever hear from the ODM’s who worship people like him is “You’re evil, You’re bad” and never any immediate word about God’s redemption.
I don’t think anybody here has a problem with talking about sin…what we do have a problem with is people reveling in their “right-ness” and not speaking of God’s REDEEMING RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That stuff deserves criticism and makes a qualitative distinction between what happens here and the ODM’s.
Sorry.
It’s just not the same thing…
sorry to see you go, but know that you go without clarity or understanding about this blog–something not really central anyway to your own ministry, I’m sure.
If this place has only been a source of frustration to you, then you are probably wise to move on. It’s most likely an indication of how these concerns are not really where you should spend your time/energy.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:59 am
I am still trying to get my head around the reason why a Calvinist would feel the need to berate people in such a way. If a person is predestined to be saved, won’t the Holy Spirit be working already?
It’s these types of inconsistencies that make me think to most of these people hyper-Calvinism isn’t much more than a mental exercise to make them feel better.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I bet if you asked everyone who posted on this blog or others “What is your salvation story” you would get answers as varied as “I was lying in a gutter and a man preached sin/repentance to me” or “Jesus came to me in a dream”
The point being Jesus draws us unto him in a manner that will speak to us. Does Paul Washer point people to God? Sure! Does Rick Warren? Yep! Do they do it differently? Absolutely!
But neither one of their approaches is a part of my salvation story.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:38 am
I was saved reading Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion!
OK, not. You make an excellent point, Chris, one that we need to remember. Although we should strive to be Biblically accurate, God uses people who are flawed personally and doctrinally.
Like…us.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Hyper-Calvinists also seem to love the word “WORM.” I am a “worm.” I am a “worm.” I am a “worm.” It’s almost a mantra. Kind of odd, TBH.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:36 am
True. I will no longer stand for this blatant discrimination and hate-speech towards worms!