Oopsie!
Posted by Tim Reed, Owosso MI on May 15th, 2008
2008
May 15
Just a little reminder that, despite assurances to the contrary from amen choruses, we can all be wrong, sometimes on significant things.
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May 15th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Let us give that a charitable interpretation.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Hey, we all could have missed it…
May 15th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I thought I did.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
They did not really mean that!
May 15th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I wish we’d all been ready…(should be sung)
May 15th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
When I was a child I was terrified that the rapture would come and I would be left behind.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
According to Harold Camping May 21, 2011 is the date of the Rapture, and October 21, 2011 is the end.
Neil
May 15th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
What happens to these people when they make these predictions and then are wrong? Do they disappear, or say that the devil thwarted the plans? I know recently Ronald Weiland (ex-WWCG) predicted that US would be attacked at the beginning of April then the trib would start. He know that since he is one of the two witnesses.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
oops Ronald Weinland
May 15th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
According to Harold Camping May 21, 2011 is the date of the Rapture, and October 21, 2011 is the end.
Whew, that is a relief. I won’t have to pay back those student loans after all…..
May 15th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
RAPTURE - OCTOBER 28, 1992 WHAT TO DO IN CASE YOU MISS THE RAPTURE.
ROFL.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
That is why people mock Christianity.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Merry,
“2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”"
See, I have just biblically justified being an idiot and making predictions because when they don’t come true it just fulfills scripture in the first.
This same concept goes for people who act like arrogant jerks to nonbelievers then when they get a reaction they say, “Well, Jesus said they would hate us for his name sake.”
What the opinions here about the end times? I personally think the concept has be hashed over time and time again and I don’t think I will see it in my lifetime. Therefore I put little stock in it, I am very aware of all the different agles I just choose agnostism towards end times theology.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Hey, wait a minute…you mean the rapture didn’t happen yet? I could have s**** in did and that Ingrid was already judging the angels. Here I thought all the current insanity was part of Nicolae’s evil plans for the world!!! Where’s Buck when you need him!!! KIRK: I DEMAND ANSWERS!!!!!
May 16th, 2008 at 8:55 am
“What happens to these people when they make these predictions and then are wrong? Do they disappear, or say that the devil thwarted the plans?”
Well, if you’re the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you just claim that there wasn’t enough information available when you made your previous 12 false prophecies. Then you kind of get out of the predicting Armageddon business and just go door-to-door preaching against the trinity instead.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:33 am
“I could have s**** in did and that Ingrid was already judging the angels.”
Hmm, isn’t Jerry the one who is so very full of grace? A bit mean-spirited here, isn’t it?
May 16th, 2008 at 10:28 am
What iz your opinion of the Jesuit origin of dispensationalism and preterism?
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm
Though I don’t agree with the SDA of the author, I believe the article itself is pretty straight forward.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:33 am
This is why I’m a panmillenialist. It’s all going to pan out in the end.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:38 am
So is it safe to say that the majority of you writers in this blog believe then end times will not be in your lifetime?
May 16th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Oscar,
We have been living in the “end times” ever since the Day of Pentecost.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am
QFT.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Alternative response: I’m a promillenialist, I”m in favor of it.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:54 am
So the answer to my question is you all believe that jesus return is not in your lifetime.
Now I wonder is you doubt that.
Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
So we been living ” end times ” since the day of pentecost more then 2000 years ago?
Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
which generation? How many genereations since ” the day of pentecost “?
This will be a nice poll to take and see who is right and who is worng.
Maybe we should go back and re-read our bibles one more time to make sure.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Oscar,
I think that the Olivet Discourse applies mainly to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, so that when Jesus says, “this generation” he is referring to the generation that was alive at the time. And of course it did happen less than 40 years later.
The funny thing about the “this generation” thing is that dispensationalists keep on changing their definition of that term. I remember when I was a kid in the 80s, people said that a generation was 40 years, so Jesus would have to come back by 1988 (40 years after the establishment of modern-day Israel). Then after that they were saying it could be 50 years. Oops, wrong again. I’m not sure what they say now.
Anyway, my views fit most closely with what is called Amillennialism. A good book about it is Kim Riddlebarger’s A Case for Amillennialism. I did a review of it here a few months ago.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:07 am
No - the answer is that he COULD return in our lifetime, but that it most probably not within a framework painted by dispensationalist, premillennial eschatology.
Actually, the word ‘generation’ in Biblical terms is a loaded word which implies a time of 40 years. And you will find that about 40 years after these words were spoken, his judgment on Jerusalem was executed.
While I can’t speak for all of the writers, I know that several (including myself) are amillennial (though pan-millennial at the core), and I tend to take the partial-preterist view, held through the first several centuries A.D. as the primary view of eschatology. You might read here or here for more on the subject.
The basic outline, though, is this: Most of the prophecy in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation (though not all - particularly Rev 20:11-22) was fulfilled during the first century after Pentecost. All that remains is the return of Christ for final judgment. When that will occur is only known to the Father.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:10 am
I agree with the bible: Jesus is coming back…soon!
May 16th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Also, a dispensational view renders things like the Olivet discourse completely incomprehensible for the first 1800 years of Christianity, which kind of goes against all the promises God made about his word not passing away and not being unfruitful etc.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Very few people believe Jesus is coming back any day except on an abstract doctrinal level. That is the “least expect it” principle.
Watch and pray. Looking for the Blessed Hope and the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ!
May 16th, 2008 at 11:44 am
I don’t understand why many of us here have totally different views on the coming of Christ.
We all have the same Bible.
Could we possibly have been decieved into believing Jesus came in 70 A.D. ( Son of Man ) why then the only record we have of 70 A.D. is the distruction of the temple?
That’s what Mathew 24 is implying if I read it the way you have stated.
I am willing to say that most here rather not even talk about this subject because it will lead to a total confusion, thus revealing the different point of views each of us has.
Where did we go wrong? Dispensatioalism, pre-trib, millenialism, covenant theology.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Oscar,
Well there are quite a few things that are in the Bible that Christians disagree about. Take the Gifts of the Spirit for example. Christians’ thinking about that run the gamut. How about predestination/free will? On some of things we just have to agree to disagree it seems.
It’s not the whole issue, but part of the reason why there is disagreement on some issues is that some things just weren’t a pressing need to the authors of Scripture. The whole predestination/free will thing, for example, was just something the Jewish was able to hold in tension a bit easier than we can. As children of the Enlightenment, we have inherited this desire to have all of theological ducts in a row. Compare that to Paul who said there are things we will never fully understand.
It all comes down being able to operate under the idea that Christians should have unity in essentials, and liberty in non-essentials. I would say the exact timing and events of Christ’s return are a non-essential.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Since we all do not know the exact day or time of our Lord Jesus’s return: We should be filled with his Holy Spirit in the meantime. For as we know and believe, his Spirit will guide us to all TRUTH. Thats is what I need. I need to be in contact and serving the Lord in spirit and in truth. (of course by Loving the truth) and in return I will receive his presence. That is what we need - his presence…. so he could tell us what is going on ;> I can “understand” and know what is next by him telling me just like he did to His disciples (us). Luke 24:45
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures
May 16th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
So did the Jews of the first century.
Prophecy is rarely viewed with 20/20 foresight.
Why would it be deception to believe that some very specific warnings given by Jesus and his disciples to people they knew personally came true within the lifetimes of the people they warned? Does Jesus’ return to judge Jerusalem in 70 A.D. preclude his final return at the end of days in any way? Or, is it less exiting to not have specific prophecies and timetables we can use for our own date-setting?
Actually, we have a pretty detailed record of the goings on during the first century via Josephus. The early church (much of which was strongly anti-Jewish) felt it was important to include, along with the Biblical canon, the works of Josephus - not as infallible scripture, but as a record of world events during the time of the birth of the church. Within Josephus’ works, we can read the record of the fulfillment of many of Jesus’ prophecies and warnings.
For instance, when, as Jesus warned them in the Olivet Discourse, the Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem witnessed the Roman army coming to cut off the city, they fled Judea and crossed the Jordan to Pella (where they disappeared from history soon thereafter and the church was suddenly almost exclusively Gentile 20 years later).
Differing points of view - particularly dealing with particulars of future events - aren’t the problem - it’s when we root our belief in the particulars of future events (apart from the base fact of Jesus’ eventual return) that problems arise.
Probably by desiring to have our own part to play in Biblical prophecy.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Eschatological discussions usually do not edify unless they deal primarily with Christ’s return and not the chronology of events. I agree with Jerry, and with that I am content. Although I can get real edified when I surround myself with people who agree with me - man, that’s is exhilarating!
Remember, in the mouth of two witnesses. So when eight of us agree on our eschatology it must be true!! Sometimes I like affirmation a lot more than discussion.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
There are just some things we have not been revealed yet- but in the meantime i can relive my encounter with Him (Jesus) when I remember how he saved me. and have complete satisfaction and peace when i believe in his grand return!
:) 
May 16th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
So did the Jews of the first century.
Prophecy is rarely viewed with 20/20 foresight
Jews in the first century did not have a bible. Plus they don’t even read the N.T.
So jesus did come in 70 A.D? did every eye see jesus return or are we speculating?
Mathew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
was 70 A.D the end of the world?
so what happened in mathew 24:29-31
Did the sun darkened? did stars fall from heaven?
Or are we still in 70 A.D.?
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
*sighs*
The word Jesus uses here for “world” is not ge (which implies the land), but rather aion (from which we get the word ‘eon’), which implies a segmenting of time, not space.
During the first century, there were a number of major volcanic eruptions, the largest of which (Vesuvius) in 79 A.D. blotted out the sky for more than a month, and rained fire and ash across much of the Mediterranean.
Josephus (Wars 6.5.3) and Tacitus reported seeing armies in the sky during the destruction of Jerusalem: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armor” (Histories 5.13)
The trumpet, symbolically, is the sign both for judging (which certainly happened to Jerusalem) and for the year of jubilee (in which everyone’s debts are forgiven).
May 16th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Very good explanation..
sorry for the barrage of questions. Seems you have done your research on josephus. Wasn’t josephus called a pharisee by the jews?
Aren’t we glad jesus did not speak in literal terms.
It would have been nice to see the glittering armies in heaven and not the son of man coming.
Problem he was behind the glittering army and went unnoticed.
So after 79 a.d. according to your researched mathew 24:30 should have happened.
“Josephus (Wars 6.5.3) and Tacitus reported seeing armies in the sky during the destruction of Jerusalem: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armor” (Histories 5.13)”
Was this in 79 A.D. or 70 A.D. ?
which is first? Mathew 24:29 or 30?
sighs!!
againg we agree to disagree. But thank you for re-affirming that jesus is coming soon, and the times we live in are pointing to he’s return. Can’t wait for that trumpet to sound ( jubilee ) not judgement.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Pharisee is a quasi-political/religious title. Paul claimed the title as well - in present (not past) tense. See here for a little more depth on the meaning of pharisee (and why we should not assume it is always a pejorative term).
Maybe not unnoticed, but unrecognized…
The destruction of the Temple occurred in 70 A.D., but the region was still being purged throughout the following decade. Now, if your question is as to whether Jesus’ words were sequential or separated, there are examples of both in Biblical prophecy. Western literature usually assumes ordering based on chronology, but Hebrew literature often orders things by importance (either low to high or high to low). In this case, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that signs of destruction would be of lower importance than the appearance of Jesus.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Since things are listed by the hebrew literature in high or low importance, When the “son of man ” apperared unrecognized by the jews in 70 a.d.
How then the son of man was able to implement judgement according to mathew 25:29-32?
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
or this comes later?
I am trying to get a grasp on preterist beliefs.
How can a layman be able to tell whether jesus was speaking in chronological order or not ( HIgh or low )?.
I guess you would have to be a scholar in order to read the word and understand it.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Oscar - plain and simple… despite what you’re being told, Matthew 24 (which carries over in Matt 25 very nicely, especially since there were never chapter divisions) refers to JESUS’ RETURN - at the end of THIS age.
There may be some dual reference, here and there, to Jerusalem but in reading Chris L’s comments (citing Josephus and so on) it seems like we’re really, really stretching a point to make something fit.
Just as Revelation deals with the return of Christ, so does Matt 24-25.
Interesting how on the one hand we talk about the simplicity of Christ (Feed Me! post) and on the other hand we delve in Greek/Josephus/all manner of nonsense on the other.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I don’t know, Paul, Chris’s explanation sounds a lot more logical and simpler than the ones I heard growing up. I mean there were charts and graphs and everything.
What complicates things, in my opinion, is when people start trying to tie modern-day occurences to prophecy.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Phil - Jesus made references to watch for events, so the difference is whether they have already occurred or if they are occurring now. The Lord gave us those signs for a reason. What may seem like a complication to you, may turn out to be Biblical signs.
Maybe.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Phil - I won’t comment on your upbringing in the church but obviously it left a bad taste in your mouth, which I completely understand.
What I would suggest is the plain truth that is open before us (not the charts and graphs).
Quite simply; Matt 24 and 25 are a single discourse by Our Lord in response to his disciples’ question. It deals with the end of this age - which chapter 25 is clear about.
I would caution that in all this complexity we look at the first thing out of Jesus’ mouth; Take heed no man DECEIVE you.
Though I believe we are in the end times, there’s no perfect certainty. That’s why Jesus tells us to be vigilant (Matt 25 parables). God bless you
May 16th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Paul,
Well, I’m not bitter toward my upbringing. I don’t necessarily have a bad taste in my mouth, it’s just that some of the answers I grew up with quit making sense.
As far as the end of the age, I would agree that Jesus is telling the disciples about the end of the age - the age of the first covenant, basically. I think basically the OT prophets were operating out of a two age model. There was “this age” and “the age to come”.
The fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in the first century AD was the end of the age for the Jews. When Jesus came to earth, that was the beginning of the age to come. There was obviously some overlap. The age to come will finely be consummated when Jesus returns. I think that Jesus’ response to the disciples was pretty obviously answering their question about when the temple would be destroyed.
So I think Jesus is mainly answering their question, but I would say He is talking about connsumation of the age to come as well.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
It just seems hard for me to believe that all the events happened in 70 AD.
To me mathew 24 is clear as water without having to go to
josephus for and explanation when these things occur.
Yea mathew 24 does talk about 70 ad destruction of jerusalem, But it mostly deals with the times we live now.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Oscar,
The disciples asked Jesus a very straightforward question. Why would He give them an answer that had nothing to do with their question? If He told them that these events would basically happen in their lifetimes, He would be lying to them if they didn’t. The disciples saw the end of the Jewish age.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
For a while the starting point shifted to 1967 when Israel retook Jerusalem - but 1967 + 40 also brought nothing.
Neil
May 16th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
The question the disciples asked was, “Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?”
Unless we cannot understand the English language, Christ did not return and the end of the world did not occur at 70 A.D.. You may not agree with all the particulars, but to suggest Revelation and Matthew 24 and 25 are past is an incredible stretch of credulity which many cannot embrace.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I’m not a preterist, Rick… but they would say a better translation would be “…and the end of the age?”
It is conceivable that the “age” ended in AD 70.
And people, please, the AD precedes the year…
Neil
May 16th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Sorry, I’ve been out - took my daughter to Prince Caspian.
Phil & Neil pretty much covered it - Matthew 24-25 deal primarily with the end of the aion - just as Jesus said. What ended in their generation? The Spirit of God left the Temple (the House) in tongues of flame on Pentecost 33 A.D. The first covenant received its judgment in 70 A.D., and the sacrificial system was eliminated upon the abomination of desolation when a pig was sacrificed on the Temple altar.
Certainly a dual fulfillment is possible, but drawing up the wacky chronologies with a newspaper in one hand and the Bible in the other isn’t a wise course of action. Revelation makes clear that there will be a final judgment (upon which death and hell with be destroyed in the lake of fire) and there will be a renewed heavens and a renewed earth and a renewed Jerusalem. Jesus’ parables make it clear that a) we are not to worry about what tomorrow will bring; and that b) we are to always be ready. There is no need to conjure up fear via predictions and ominous pronouncements (”we’re in the great falling away predicted by Paul…”, etc.), and premillenial dispensationalism (which was conjured up by Darby less than 200 years ago) plays that game all too much.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Sorry, Neil - I never get that right…
May 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
lol, same here. I grew up in Revival Centres, Word Faith AND Baptist churches so I got a good mix of all extremes of Pre-Mill teaching. The thing I find saddest is that in some circles I would get flayed for even suggesting to examine the passages to see if that’s what they really mean.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Actually, Rick - to Neil’s point, this is NOT the literal question asked - it was a) what will be the sign of your coming; and b) what will be the sign of the end of the aion (age)?
Again, aion (the word recorded by Matthew as being used) is a measure of time, not space. Had they wanted to know about the end of the world (a place), they would have used a form of ge (from which we get Geology & the like).
I would also note that Jesus said:
Kindly point me to one of Jesus’ 12 disciples who has not tasted death. After all, Jesus uses the same phrase here (re: the Son of Man coming) as he does in the Olivet Discourse
He’s answering the disciples’ question. If he is deceiving them by using a completely different meaning of “generation” than was understood anywhere else in scripture, it seems awfully cruel and out of character for him.
The high priest was killed in the first century during the destruction of Jerusalem. I guess Jesus meant he would resurrect the high priest and THEN come and THEN resurrect everyone else…
Or we could go into all of Paul’s usage of “soon” and “at hand”, but that would just drive the point into the ground that everyone in the first century (including Jesus and Paul) was teaching an IMMINENT return of Jesus and just crying wolf to the folks they were communicating with.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
A couple comments re Chris L’s statements:
Chris: “…but drawing up the wacky chronologies with a newspaper in one hand and the Bible in the other isn’t a wise course of action.”
Paul C: and ignoring what could be possible signs of the end times is even more unwise. It is better to err on the side of caution than to be caught off-guard (which Christ highlighted in several parables). Again, no one here is advocating a mass exodus to the hills, so why not quit trying to make people out to be silly?
Chris L: “…there will be a renewed heavens and a renewed earth and a renewed Jerusalem.”
Paul C: I agree there will be a renewed heavens and a renewed earth in which Jesus Christ will establish His everlasting Kingdom - I also agree that death/hell actually die. However, “New Jerusalem” is not a place (in reference to Revelation) but the actual bride of Christ - God’s elect.
Chris L: “There is no need to conjure up fear via predictions and ominous pronouncements (”we’re in the great falling away predicted by Paul…”, etc.)”
Paul C: we are in a time of unprecedented apostasy - a lot of which is advocated for and supported on this blog (ie: supporting/defending the Catholic church, the most apostate gathering of all, and the increasing worldliness of the church in general). Very dangerous to ignore this and be casual seeing as NO WHERE in scripture is a spirit of casualness offered.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
OK Chris, some legitimate points. I like your dual fulfillment suggestion. But the “Jesus came invisibly at A.D. 70″ is just as wacky as “Kissinger is the antichrist”.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Do we REALLY need to disprove this, yet again?
May 16th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Better?
May 16th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
That’s not what I said, and I’m pretty certain that’s not how it felt (or looked) to the folks in Jerusalem.
Let me know when the Roman army surrounds Jerusalem, or when the Temple is rebuilt and then desecrated and we’ll talk. Meanwhile, I’ll just stick with Jesus’ two step plan:
1) Don’t worry about tomorrow
2) Always be ready
It makes the rest of the tea-leaf reading and prognostication moot.
I didn’t realize that suggesting that members of the RCC were Christians was wholehearted defense/support of the RCC.
Again your “most apostate” titling is kind of like People magazine’s “Sexiest Men of 2008″… I could just as easily point to the recorded falling away of a huge number of Jews in the first century, reprimanded by Paul in Hebrews…
Again, I’ll stick with Jesus’ two-step plan and let you irrelevantly don the sandwich board.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
I would suggest the period from A.D.700 to the Reformation was quite a piece of apostacy, no?
I still don’t get the invisible Jesus, I believe the angel told the disciples He would come the same visible way He left (Acts 1). I do know this, whatever has been set will happen and there will be no confusion about it. I’ll take the sandwich, you take the board.
BTW - I have a 4′ by 3′ sign that says “Prepare Now - I am Coming - Jesus”. I hold it up at the busiest intersection in my town where perhaps thousands of cars on Friday afternnon stop in a three lane turn and have to read it. I have gotten appreciated honks and shouts using language that illustrates their displeasure.
Would you disagree with me doing that, Chris?
May 16th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
OK - I guess I’m the sandwich board guy again (?)
What throws the whole “Matt 24 speaks of AD 70″ argument off course is Matt 25. Anyone care to suggest how Matt 25 talks of AD 70? Honestly, I would be interested to know.
Or, is it more honest to admit that all indications clearly point to the fact that Matt 25 speaks of Jesus’ second coming?
By the way, Chris L, your 2 step plan is not so bad - really. The only thing I would question is that Jesus didn’t really teach us not to worry about tomorrow per se, but more so not to be so preoccupied about securing our financial futures and committing idolatry in that sense (if you’re referring to Matt 6).
If He didn’t want us to at least be concerned about tomorrow (ie: His coming) then let’s just throw out half of His parables/teachings (you know - all that stuff about “Watch!”, “Be vigilant”, “thief in the night”, etc, etc).
May 16th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
There are many interesting and extremely different views on Jesus’ return. Let’s just remember that God is outside of time the way we know it, and knows a whole lot more than we do. He is in control. All I know is that Jesus is not here, God is invisible and silent, and there is still much pain and suffering.
I refuse to believe Jesus already came and went and the entire idea is metaphorical. That just leaves so many unanswered questions.
May 17th, 2008 at 12:00 am
I’m not sure where you got the idea that the ‘entire deal is metaphorical’. Just as there is a separate Jewish festival for atonement (Yom Kippur) and for judgment & forgiveness (Rosh Hashanah - the feast of the sounding of the trumpet), so to do we see Jesus’ return in two different roles - with the one potentially fulfilled in AD 70, and the other yet to be fulfilled. Each of the other major Jewish feasts is associated with a major event in Jesus’ life, so it is not unreasonable to assume that the others would, as well (though we do not know the year, or the actual date of these festivals, as the Jewish calendar was recalculated and may be off by weeks).
Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus could have been true to his word, to those whom he gave it to directly? Both he and Paul were consistent in their language usage (’soon’, ‘at hand’, ‘within a generation’), and we have no record of John’s death nor the fate of the Jewish Christians (more than 100,000 according to Josephus) who fled to Pella. That was the belief of the early church - that the parousia was fulfilled in AD70 and to be brought to completion at the end of days (per John’s Revelation).
I’m not only referring to Matt 6, but also to Jesus imagery as a shepherd (the Jewish concept of a shepherd, per Psalm 23 and elsewhere, provides for the sheep as they need it) and as God provided to the Israelites in the desert (with manna for each day, not to be hoarded except on Sabbath). We are not to worry about tomorrow, because (per step 2) we should always be ready, because we may not have tomorrow (”Watch”, “be vigilant”, etc.) Tomorrow always belongs to God.
Jesus’ disciples asked specifically for a sign they should watch for in advance of his return. He gave them one that was rather specific - a sign that was fulfilled within a generation, and that history records they heeded by fleeing Jerusalem immediately. I guess they must have just misinterpreted and that Jesus was cruel in his answer by telling them to look for a sign that would be fulfilled in their generation, even though it was really 2000+ years off… nice guy, that Jesus. Not even a ‘years after you have died…’, but a totally new usage of generation and a new meaning for ’soon’ and ‘at hand’, as well.
For someone who claims to be literal in interpreting Jesus’ words, you sure seem to want him (and Paul) to be figurative - no, not figurative, but downright deceptive - with his language when he speaks of his return. Not to even mention that you’re asking to throw Daniel’s prophecies out the window by suspending the 69th week to some undetermined point in the future. Poor Daniel - I wonder if he knew the fate of prophets that weren’t 100% accurate…
May 17th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Chris L, I wasn’t referring to your ideas. There are people in this world who believe Jesus’ return, Revelations, everything, is completely metaphorical. That Jesus “second coming” was when he rose from the dead and we are living in the millenium right now, as we speak. There’s a whole denomination that believes this, I forget which one it is, but that’s where I “got the idea that the ‘entire deal is metaphorical’.” I was speaking in a general sense on the subject of end times, not necessarily to anybody’s comments here.
Again, all I know is that Jesus is not here.
May 17th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Then again, he is.
Neil
May 17th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
How? He’s not here in person.
The Holy Spirit is here.
Where are the other two parts?
May 17th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Sure he is
And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.
(1Jn 3:24)
May 17th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Jesus is here, He is everywhere and of course lives within every truebeliever. But the descriptions concerning His second coming are an entirely unique event. If you interpret many of the Scriptures as literal.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Well, of course I know Jesus is always with us! He said so!:) That’s not exactly what I meant. I interpret scriptures pretty literally and I believe I will one day see Jesus and God physically with my own two eyes. Why couldn’t the end times, the second coming, the millenium, be completely literal?
I guess I’m just a very literal person, so I will intrepret things literally. I just think people make the Bible way too complicated sometimes. If Jesus already came, wouldn’t all believers know about it?
People have many different interpretations of the Bible and I don’t think one in inferior to the other, I just notice a lot of interpretations have a lot to do with the personality of the person interpretating . . . which I think is interesting, and I think all interepretations have some value. I believe the Holy Spirit works in the church as a whole, so I really think a lot of interpretations could be looked at side by side and considered all together. That is why I hate denominations and wish the whole church would work together, but that’s getting off track.
The end times are complicated and you really have to read all the Scriptures that talk about it– Daniel, Ezekial, Matthew, Revelation, ect.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I’m sorry I brought it up actually. We had this conversation a month ago.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
The first thing He will do when He comes is clean up that cesspool called Australia. The United States would be so much better if Australia hadn’t poisoned us.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
You are quite welcome to any of our snakes, sharks, spiders, dingos, drop bears, hoop snakes, bunyip, rainbow serpent etc. Or is that what the problem is
?
May 17th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I hate it when I have a serious question about Christianity or am struggling to understand something and people just joke or act like I’m dumb for not knowing. This is almost about to happen here. I’m sorry if I’m rehashing an old conversation, I’m just so horribly confused right now.
May 18th, 2008 at 12:10 am
The reason I was reluctant to bring it up again is since my view is rather conroversial amongst Christians and it was in a long list of comments previously. I’m sorry that your question was made into a joke.
My view is obviously a personal take and I’m open to the fact that I could be wrong. I think this topic is to a certain extent of little value since we know that:
1. He lives in us
2. He gave us gifts to survive
3. I read that the same Holy Spirit that empowered Jesus as a man is in us!
With those conclusions I don’t see what the hoo ha is about the topic sometimes. Why do people want Him to come back? I have a great level of contentness within from God that I have no desire to go to heaven since the Kingdom of Heaven is within me already and that empowers me to help others where I can, which is so much more important than me going to heaven and “escaping this horrible degenerate world”.
I see that Jesus was mis-interpreted in His first coming with the people of the day taking a very literal view that He would be this conqueror. I take the same view then that perhaps I could be wrong to see so much a literal view again with His second coming. Will He come on a literal horse, normal sized with a literal sword coming out of His mouth, but at the same time all can see Him?
I find it a little deceptive that I was told in my early years that “X part of a prophecy is literal, but oh no this part is symbolic.” The question in my mind is then, “What is literal and why and what’s the rule?” The only answer I can find is that it is when it suits peoples beliefs. What part of scripture interpreted literally benefits man? Very little that I can think of. God certainly did tell prophets about literal events happening, but always there was a reason and symbol behind what He did.
I’ll let the cat out of the bag and risk a stoning by saying that I am very sympathetic to the Swedenborg view scripture. Ever since reading his works on the meaning of Genesis and the doctrine of the Lord I have been filled with an incredible love for those I felt previously were heretics, and an equally strong love for the lost.
May 18th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Thanks for sharing your view, David. It’s pretty interesting, actually.
I especially agree with this: “I find it a little deceptive that I was told in my early years that ‘X part of a prophecy is literal, but oh no this part is symbolic.’” I struggle with that too.
I don’t try to act like other people’s views are wrong (because I honestly do not know), so it really irks me when people act like my views of Scripture are all wrong. I’m just struggling to figure out what I believe right now. I think if the Holy Spirit guides you with what you believe, then it’s valid, even if you can’t see the whole picture and other people have conflicting views. Maybe it’s like a huge puzzle and we have to all get together to put it together. (Which is not happening.)
May 18th, 2008 at 12:31 am
I’m not suggesting that He has, but the Jews didn’t all know that He had come the first time, so I always try to stay open to examine ideas even if they are silly to some. I have often fallen into the trap of “I have the Spirit so I know!” and try so hard to not do it in the future.
May 18th, 2008 at 12:36 am
In recent months God has very strongly shown me how wrong I am about many things, in paricular my previously very exclusive Gospel. I had in my mind a list of sins and beliefs that people needed in order “to become a Christian” without realising the whole time that even “Being a Christian” isn’t what it is about.
God probably still needs to work on me with this, but the only view I see as wrong is the exclusive Christian club view. Since coming to realise that Love is all that matters, so many other things become side line distractions.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Speaking of signs in the heavens, today is the anniversary of New England’s Dark Day. People always think they’re on the brink of Judgement Day, I suppose.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Lets not forget that end times hysteria prompted the beginnings of 7th Day Adventism which at the time was wholly a cult.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:32 am
–Just a little reminder that, despite assurances to the contrary from amen choruses, we can all be wrong, sometimes on significant things.–
Of course, there are the biblical injunctions to not make such speculations on when Christ will return. But maybe that’s one of the “assurances” we shouldn’t be so sure about , right?
May 20th, 2008 at 10:34 am
If there is anything that we do here, it is reserve the right to be wrong. I’m not sure what chorus you speak of.
Neil