Is Everyone Reading the Same Manifesto?
I took the time to read the Evangelical Manifesto this morning. It is remarkably different from the one being read over at CRN and other self-proclaimed ODM sites. For example, here are two of the bedrock beliefs of the EM I read:
First, we believe that Jesus Chrsit is fully God become fully human, the unique, sure, and sufficient revelation of the very being, character, and purposes of God, beside whom there is no other god, and beside whom there is no other name by which we must be saved.
Second, we believe that the only ground for our acceptance by God is what Jesus Christ did on the cross and what he is now doing through his risen life, whereby he exxposed and reversed the course of human sin and violence, bor the penalty for our sins, credited us with his righteousness, redeemed us from the power of evil, reconciled us to God, and empowers us with his life — from above.
We therefore bring nothing to our salvation. Credited with the righteousness of Christ, we receive his redemption solely by grace through faith.
The other manifesto apparently claims that Biblical Christianity is NOT the only way and also argues for universal salvation. Would somebody please send me the url so I can read this one as well.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
“The Industrial Society and its Future”
That is the only manifesto I will sign.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Every time I see the word “manifesto” I think of the unabomber… maybe it is because I am from Montana…
LOL!
(I am soooo superior with my LOL!’s that I LOL all over you all!) LOL!
iggy
May 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I read this manifesto over and over and over - I have no idea what they’re reading. Here are my thoughts at first glance:
CRN: “Staking Claim of The New American Evangelical Identity”
RA: It actually says, “A Declaration of Evangelical Identity.” The word “NEW” is not in the text, this was added by CRN.
__________
CRN: “The Call For Global Ecumenism & Pluralism for Survival”
RA: The words “ecumenism” and “pluralism” appear nowhere in the text. The word “GLOBAL” - a word that strikes terror in the hearts of ODMs - appears 7 times.
1. “We gratefully appreciate that our spiritual and historical roots lie outside this country, that the great majority of our fellow-Evangelicals are in the Global South rather than the North, and that we have recently had a fresh infusion of Evangelicals from Latin America, Africa, and Asia.”
[An acknowledgment that the Christian church is not made of people from all over the world).
2. “To affirm who we are and where we stand in public is important because we Evangelicals in America, along with people of all faiths and ideologies, represent one of the greatest challenges of the global era: living with our deepest differences. This challenge is especially sharp when religious and ideological differences are ultimate and irreducible, and when the differences are not just between personal worldviews but between entire ways of life co-existing in the same society.”
[A plea for living together peacefully with people of other faiths and lifestyles.]
3. “…engaging the global giants of conflict, racism, corruption, poverty, pandemic diseases, illiteracy, ignorance, and spiritual emptiness, by promoting reconciliation, encouraging ethical servant leadership, assisting the poor, caring for the sick, and educating the next generation.”
[An obvious reference to the plagues of the world].
4. “On the other hand, we are also troubled by the fact that the advance of globalization and the emergence of a global public square finds no matching vision of how we are to live freely, justly, and peacefully with our deepest differences on the global stage. . . . The challenges of living with our deepest differences are intensified in the age of global technologies such as the World Wide Web.”
[A reference to the world situation in general]
5. “As this global public square emerges, we see two equal and opposite errors to avoid: coercive secularism on one side, once typified by communism and now by the softer but strict French-style secularism; and religious extremism on the other side, typified by Islamist violence.”
[Another reference to the world in general]
6. “We also warn of the danger of a two-tier global public square, one in which the top tier is for cosmopolitan secular liberals and the second tier is for local religious believers. Such an arrangement would be patronizing as well as a severe restriction of religious liberty and justice, and unworthy of genuine liberalism.”
[A third reference to the world in general]
7. “We urge those who share our dedication to the poor, the suffering, and the oppressed to join with us in working to bring care, peace, justice, and freedom to those millions of our fellow-humans who are now ignored, oppressed, enslaved, or treated as human waste and wasted humans by the established orders in the global world.”
[A final reference to the world in general]
NOTHING here talks about ecumenism or pluralism in any theological sense. The ONLY thing that I am assuming they are are referring to might be this sentence: “We call on all citizens of goodwill and believers of all faiths and none to join us in working for a civil public square and the restoration of a tough-minded civility that is in the interests of all.”
But, of course, this is not dealing with ecumenism or pluralism. It’s simply dealing with all of us trying to not tear each other apart just because we believe differently than others. The ODMs, however, seem to feel it would be a better world if we continued to hate and despise people who have made different life/faith choices. Interesting.
_________
CRN: “Redefining Christ’s Command to be Salt and Light”
RA: Neither the word “salt,” nor “light” appear in the text. And no statements suggesting any redefinition of how we are to be representatives of Christ as salt and light is redefined. The very first statement under “We Must Reaffirm Our Identity” reads: “Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their faith, and their lives according to the Good News of Jesus of Nazareth. (Evangelical comes from the Greek word for good news, or gospel.) Believing that the Gospel of Jesus is God’s good news for the whole world, we affirm with the Apostle Paul that we are ?not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation.? Contrary to widespread misunderstanding today, we Evangelicals should be defined theologically, and not politically, socially, or culturally.”
_______
CRN: “Roman Catholic Saint Illustrates What It Means to be a Christian”
RA: Must have missed this one. Couldn’t find a RC saint. I might just be reading without enough coffee. LOL.
_______
CRM: “Biblical Christianity Not The Only Way; Reduced to a Principle of Civility”
RA: Exactly where they might have extrapolated this notion from escapes me. The Manifesto plainly reads: “We ourselves are those who have come to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is ?the way, the truth, and the life, and that the great change required of those who follow him entails a radically new view of human life and a decisively different way of living, thinking, and acting.”
_______
CRN: “Resultant Statement of Christian Universalism?”
RA: As I have stated many times in the past, it is my personal opinion that these people are living in a world of their own creation; a world born of fear, paranoia, hate, anger, and religiosity — an imaginary landscape wherein they alone are the righteous warriors for God and his kingdom arrayed against Satan’s forces of darkness and his soon-to-be revealed Antichrist! And the forces of darkness includes everyone who doesn’t share their narrow of of…….well……pretty much everything.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
They seem to stretch a point here. However I am always skeptical of anything “global” except missions (reference my flawed eschatology). Anyway, all of those things they itemize are already contained in a previous manifesto:
The Bible.
PS - Iggy, the manifesto I listed is commonly known as the “Unibomber Manifesto”!
May 10th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Hey Richard,
Good to hear from you. Hope you are well.
JD
May 10th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Oh they’re reading the same stuff we are. They always do (well, it’s always the same stuff, most the time they don’t actually read it though). The problem is that they are looking for ghosts. So when they see the wind blowing, they think it’s a ghost. That and their general reading comprehension is awful.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Wow. Just wow. I read it the day it was posted. There are some things that I have questions about. But nothing fatally heretical.
Good grief. Some folks are just never happy with anything beyond their own little (and by “little, I mean “their own individual, and no one else”) circle.
Seeing as Os Guinness had a great deal to do with that document - and that is evident from much of the verbiage and many of the ideas - I’d love to hear what the ODMs have to say about him now. If I am not mistaken, he does tend to lean in their Calvinistic sort of direction, though I may be mistaken on that.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
“(I am soooo superior with my LOL!’s that I LOL all over you all!) LOL!”
Then there was a lol in the conversation. Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha . . .
Never mind.
May 10th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
The reality is that Christians of the ODM stripe are going to be inclined to think that true Christians will be conservative Republicans. Being a Republican is viewed as evidence of salvation, kind of like tee-totaling and the inability to relate to non-Christians.
So, when someone says, “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t tell people that in order to believe in Christ you will also have to be against the estate tax” ODMs get *very* suspicious. I thinks it’s viewed as the first step towards apostasy.
May 10th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I am convinced that if WALTER MARTIN were alive today, the ODM’s would be labeling him, of all people, a heretic and a false teacher.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Actually the excessive use of lols is a sign of
1. a pathetic cry for attention and/or acceptance
2. a sign of gross immaturity
3. a sign that you actually believe you are funny
4. most likely all the above
I thought you would all be busy studying the theory of atheistic evolution as a viable part of the proper exegesis of Genesis 1 and 2.
Manifestos…..? Please. You guys read everything but the bible.
May it all rot in hillel.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:38 am
From watcher’s lamp:
I also find it interesting that the SoF needs Hell in it when no call to the gospel I have ever read in the bible threatened it. Even in (my favourite) the King “Captain Hell” James version.
and also…
Note in 4 they didn’t ever say they were right, just we have to live with other people. Then in #10 what I see the evengelical statement is really saying is that “we’re not the only people who are Christians so let’s not attack people and especially not exclude those who might one day believe”.
That’s the only quote I take opposition to of course. People weren’t Christians before the Trinity was invented?
May 11th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Oh they just get their panties knotted when anyone suggests that Christians stop going after manufactured problems like the chimerical Gay Agenda and start acting like Christ would have them.
Their fear of civil society makes them weak.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Richard,
Walter Martin was a “Cal-minian” which according to the new dictionary means “semi-palegian”… so yes he would be a heretic by Ken Silva’s new standard.
What sets Walter apart from the ODM’s is he knew grace and was able to express love for those he researched. He showed more compassion and love to Mormons JW’s and so on than any ODM does today.
In fact I see that is some claim his as their inspiration or even spiritual father and do as they do, shames Walter’s name.
iggy
May 11th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Be warned: Abanes thinks a lot of foolish things.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I have not had enough time to read this (all 16 pages) but I plan to examine it. The way that self labeled evangelicals have been part of the modern downgrade has greatly disturbed me, and it is my hope that this manifesto is going towards reform and pointing towards the standards set forth in scripture, including an emphasis on the exclusivity of Christ as the only way, and a call to evangelicals to return to the roots of evangelicalism, which includes an uncompromising proclamation of the evangel- the good news.
Until then, I am still the reconciliationist.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
PB,
Did you really mean to say “still”? LOL!
Sorry could no resist…
t
Did you go to Bozeman yet?
iggy
May 12th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Iggy, no not until summer
May 12th, 2008 at 9:14 am
I have noticed that the only folks that complain about the manifesto are the ones that think they are right and every other version of the faith is wrong. This is not just with ODM’s, I heard a guy on the radio railing all over it. Another thing I noticed is many of these folks that are against it are very closely tied to politics. Perkins, Dobson etc….. When will they realize that there solt lost its flavor years ago.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:31 am
From the “other” link in the article above. “The Red Letter Christians misrepresent Biblical Christianity to the general public.”
Right, Biblical Christianity, blindly without criticism supports a President that starts Illegal war, destroys the civil rights our country was founded by fear mongering, Cuts taxes for the top 1% while cutting critical services to the poor, putting lobbyist in charge of regulating their previous companies (Fox guarding the chickens), authorized torture of many innocent people. There are countless others, yet our Christian representatives still give him the OK, the only time they complain is if he dare talk about something that hints left. Global Warming et al, with all that this administration has done over the past 7 years there will be many Christians who blindly follow the idea that they are “republicans” because they are anti abortion and anti Gay. We are known for what we are against not what we are for. Besides all that, the Republicans owned the white house that two branches of congress from 2002 to 2006 and did nothing about the wedge issue of abortion. Now the right wing will say we need McCain because we need judges, we need to stack the bench with judges that will do our bidding. I can’t help be rant about my disgust with the Right and how they claim ownership of God and “family values” when they ignore. Sorry this is overtly political but it relates to the mindset of the ODM’s. The Obama bashing is soon to come in full force. Obama, Osama hmmmmm
May 12th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Bizarreness, I say -
I didn’t find much to object to in the entire thing, and I thought it was much more balanced than I anticipated. As for the ‘ecumenicalism’?
I didn’t realize that living peacefully and respectfully with people who are not followers of Christ somehow equated with accepting their beliefs as ‘equally valid’…
It didn’t mention hell or support all five petals of the TULIP, though, so it is no surprise that those obsessed with such things would recoil from it…
May 12th, 2008 at 9:40 am
It just proves that some people live to complain (or is it compain to live?).
I find it funny that the “manifesto” has become the accepted vehicle of communication for such things. I’m working on my “manifesto of what’s for lunch today”. I’m only on page 5, so it’s got a way to go…
May 12th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Phil,
I’m having a Stoffer’s Paninni. (Shameless product placement). They’re quite qood and toast in the microwave.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Jeff,
Get off your high-horse about the right. Do you realize that I disagree with you on almost every one of those issues that you just stated, but that I (yes, a die-hard republican) do not blindly support anything or anyone? That I believe we as Christians are to live the very essence of Jesus in our daily lives by living openly and honestly with all people (not a blanket endorsement of their lifestyle or their beliefs, but acceptance of them as being created in God’s image that need to see Jesus in my words and actions)? The “Left” doesn’t have a monopoly on the truth any more than the “right” does. But my politics (read: what I believe the GOVERNMENT should do, not what I should do) are not my religion. And I am not alone on the right in this. So please do not link republican politics so solidly with the ODM’s. That is GBA and no better than the ODMs. Let’s try and be above that.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I think its fair to say that we’ve created our own mini-culture here.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:04 am
There is no left, there is no right, there is no liberal, there is no conservative, they are all man made labels used to both elicit pride to those who label themselves and demean those who they apply the label to.
I direct you to the archives of my many previous rants. (I hope you all appreciate that!)
May 12th, 2008 at 10:07 am
“That I believe we as Christians are to live the very essence of Jesus in our daily lives by living openly and honestly with all people (not a blanket endorsement of their lifestyle or their beliefs, but acceptance of them as being created in God’s image that need to see Jesus in my words and actions)? ”
Great quote, however marrying to a certain party to legislate “God” on a pluralistic society will only hurt the cause of Christ, not help it. We have seen study after study indicate that is what is happening.
My point with getting political is that the Manifesto is political and those who oppose it are those who seem to be politician’s masquerading as spiritual leaders.
When Pastor’s hint from the pulpit that there is a political party that is “wierd” there is something wrong. We need to keep that separate, I think we agree on that point.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:38 am
“When Pastor’s hint from the pulpit that there is a political party that is “wierd” there is something wrong. We need to keep that separate, I think we agree on that point.”
Yes, agreed, but that doesn’t mean all are like that. I belong to a very large congregation that does no such thing, and we aren’t alone. That is all I am saying. That my opinions on what the government should do doesn’t have to contradict my call as a christian just because I am of the “seriously right” wing. I am aware that, even when I think a certain political idea is “weird” (which, I admit, I do regularly) that CAN NOT determine how I view my call as a follower of Christ. This, I believe, is part of the essence of being a more mature Christian in this crazy time.
Rick, While I respect your throughly a-political views, and they have challenged me in many areas (this is a great thing!), I do not believe that those ideas are every Christian’s calling. For that to be true, than how could God call some to be politicians? (Which I have to believe that some are). I believe that that is a personal decision based on who God has uniquely created each of us to be. Again, though, I have been challenged to really analyze my motives and God’s calling on my life in light of your views, which I appreciate.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“however marrying to a certain party to legislate “God” on a pluralistic society will only hurt the cause of Christ, not help it.”
Really, that is what I am saying, though, Jeff. I DON’T believe that the government should be in the business of helping the poor. There should be no need of it, because we as Christians are doing it. We are failing, obviously, but it is a good challenge to have. I don’t believe in legislating morality, but I do believe in defending the innocent. I do not believe that I should have to give any more of my money to the government so they can spend it on programs that I don’t believe in or that don’t support my morals/values. I would love to be able to give more to the poor, but I can’t because the government is taking so much of it. I do believe it is the God-given authority of our leader to go to war. I may not agree with how these are all administered, of course. And I don’t appreciate Dobson etc for their outspokenness in many cases, but, in the case of Dobson at least, I do have to respect the call that God has placed on his life, and I do believe that he is living it out the best that he knows how. So where is the understanding and acceptance for those like him? And who are we to judge that they have lost their salt? Ingrid? yes…Ken? yes, but Dobson? I wouldn’t dare say that.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Zan - I am just grateful for the political inertia you’ve been able to break from and experience a journey to absolute (Kelvin) freedom! I must sdaly admit, though, I am enjoying way too much the many faceted elements of this year’s political spectacle.
John McCain - is the confused grandfather calling his dog.
Barak Obama - is Bin Laden’s secret grandson sent to destroy us.
Hillary Clinton - Dennis Kucinich in drag.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:09 am
So, the poor should be pawns waiting to see if Christians help them?
Good try, Christians, you’ll get the next ones! Shake it off, shake it off!
That being said, Jeff is totally right.
Wow, that’s very…current Iranian regime of you…
1. No. Congress declares war.
2. No. The American president is not an emissary of God granted with certain “rights” above anyone else.
I believe the problem we on the left have with Christians blindly supporting the Republican party (or blindly REFUSING to support the other party due to manufactured mythical issues) is that the Republican party’s platform couldn’t be further from anything resembling “Christ-like.” When it’s, occasionally, on the right moral side of an issue (I can think of one instance), it’s totally wrong on the most effective tactics for addressing that issue.
And Rick, have you considered the possibility that Kucinich is Hillary in man-drag?
Food for thought…
May 12th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Oh, and Dobson is a fraud with no credentials who hands out made-up advice that’s rejected by the majority of the credentialed mental health community, and also, he hurts people.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Well, how can I argue with that broad brush?
I guess I don’t. I try not to make across the board statements. Apparently you do, Mr. Terror. I’m sorry…I couldn’t hear you…can you speak down to me a little more?
Rick, I appreciate your levity!
May 12th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Dobson hurts people? that’s not a broad-brush, it’s a fact.
and seriously, show the me Republican policies that would fall in line most with Jesus’s message.
is it the one where they don’t want to extend the GI Bill, because their version of “Support Our Troops” is a bumper sticker and a flag pin? for that matter, is it the one that denies injured troops (severely injured in an illegal war, naturally) the healthcare they need, based on a technicality?
is it the one that puts the needs of Exxon/Mobil ahead of the needs of the earth and its people?
is it the one that talks a good game at election time about the plight of the unborn, then goes back to not caring until the next election rolls around?
i mean, seriously. which one?
is it the one where the
May 12th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Ken Silva: Be warned: Abanes thinks a lot of foolish things.
RA: Ahhh, the loving “pastor” does a drive-by.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
“is it the one that talks a good game at election time about the plight of the unborn, then goes back to not caring until the next election rolls around?”
Not one, I said NOT ONE bill to make abortion illegal has been put forth by any president. Politics anyone? And John McCain being pro-life is laughable. Yea, he’s been a real crusader.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Terror, The message of Jesus has been sqwed. Many of christ’s followers look more like the pharisees than they do Jesus. We have been convinced that making abortion illegal and preventing gays from having the rights of everyone else is what Jesus would actually be doing. Garbage!!!!(we fight the issues in the wrong way) He also would not be advocating a preemtive war on a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, he also would take issue with the fact that the top .5% own more of this country than the bottom 90% though governmental policies that help the rich. The Right, like Zan would say “get government out of our lives”, however, if there is not a regulartor to help the regular folks then the rich will stomp all over the poor. I don’t agree with all liberal issues but when you unpack them one by one against the current conservative stances and then compare them to what Jesus taught, it becomes hard to justify conservatism. Zan, I used to be just like youwith what you have written but no longer, I have to be honest about the fraud that is conservative politics(especially NeoConservative). Also, I would like to know have you ever read “Conservatives without conscience” by John W. Dean a 1970’s conservative? I highly recommend it to those “died in the wool” types. I might open your eyes to a lot of things that you may or may not know.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Jeff - you are correct. Politics = compromise. It’s like getting involved with pornography in order to enhance marriage.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
ya know, that’s sitting on my bookshelf, still unread. i heard Dean interviewed when it came out, and he really lays out what has become of the so-called “conservative” movement. there’s a lot of weird psychology involved, and it explains a lot of the deference toward this president, who, pathological liar and fraud though he is, not to mention more a little bit incompetent, exhibits a “Father Knows Best” mentality and thus keeps a reliable quarter of the populace cowed.
to say the least.
as is happening right now, thanks be to Republican deregulatory practices.
Blackwater and their merry band of mercenaries get to rape, kill, and steal their way through a foreign country at whim, subject to no country’s laws (thanks to the original neocon head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, Paul Bremer. Order 17. Look it up, everyone), all the while finding new and creative ways to avoid paying taxes (thanks, taxpayers! keep on being ignorant about what’s going on in the world, and we’ll keep lining our pockets!); meanwhile, big bidness in this country gets to play cutesy with the law, avoid taxes of their own, create new and exciting ways to screw the middle and lower classes; and let’s not forget the Big Awl Bidness, which actually makes more money (at least for now…businesspeople tend to be hellaciously myopic) by proclaiming that there is no energy problem, there is no climate change, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, look we have “scientists” who back us up, they’re funded by the same folks who attacked us on 9/11, the Saudis, i mean, oops, wait! NO! pay no attention to the fact that our bestest bestest friends in the world produced 15 of the 19 hijackers who stole 3,000 American lives on 9/11, pay no attention to the Saudis’ best friend George, who’s now stolen more lives with his little pissant adventures than Osama bin Laden could ever dream of…
But remember everybody, gays are coming to steal your abortions! cower in fear! cower in fear!
sheesh.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Terror,
And that is the issue, I would say that a high % of evangelical christians are unaware to those issues and think that anything directed as critical to republicans or dobson or any family organization will not trust it as it is a liberal lie. They get their “news” from “trusted” sources like FauxNews, “christian” talk radio or sites like OneNewsNow or ChristianWorldview network. EVERYthing is a conspiracy and Satan is behind it all. Since the right has two issues in their pocket they get the vote, its like the manifesto said(getting back on topic), “Christians become the “useful idiots” for one political party or another.” We need to know ALL the issues, should we vote to outlaw abortion and support torture and fighting an unjust war? Should we prevent Gays from having the same priviledges as others, when we in the church can’t keep our eyes off of porn and can’t keep our marriages together? We need to rethink this stuff through.
You mentioned Blackwater, have you read that book? if not, it’s very good and the Dean book really opened my eyes to conservatism and started me on my way to what I would consider left of center.
My next book is unChristian, which is about why nonchristians can’t stand us, we have strayed from the faith, IMO, and the love of Christ is no longer present when we are known for what we are against and not what we are for.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
i haven’t read any full screeds on Blackwater, but luckily alternative non-bottom-feeding-non-corporate media is still alive in this country and abroad, and the more one studies the issue, a really disgusting picture starts to develop…
add that to the revelations (which are being completely blacked out by said pathetic media) that most of the “independent military analysts” we see on the idiot box (it’s really living up to its name these days isn’t it?) were actually deployed by the Pentagon to spread its war propaganda and, naturally, the “analysts” themselves were on the government teat, sucking up contracts for their beloved “defense contractors”…
it does strike me as quite silly that otherwise intelligent people could possibly read “news” from sites like OneNewsNow without laughing…i mean, their articles don’t even pass the giggle test most of the time. same goes for WingNutDaily…one of their editors wrote an article last week that i dissected on my blog…because it was honestly the stupidest article i’ve ever read, and any 9th grade English teacher would have given it an F for poor construction and execution.
i dunno, though. we are dealing with the same people who consider Rush Limbaugh a journalist.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Terror,
I have hope, the internet is waking up people, like myself and getting us out of our shell.
BTW on a serious note, the Far East is going through some rough times with Myannmar and now China, please pray for those countries.
Question is, with D James Kennedy and Falwell gone who is going to step up and blame folks like Terror for these tragedies? Or what ungodly event was planned that God thrwarted?????
May 12th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
well, Saturday night there was a monsoon in Memphis, and tornadoes all over the south/midwest…
i personally take responsibility, as all the gays were meeting secretly to update The Agenda and then play strip boggle.
our bad.
as to the tragedies in Myanmar and China, Asia can’t seem to catch a break this week, can they? a friend is studying in Beijing right now, and he’s okay thankfully, but we have to remember that, for many other parts of the world, this is Hurricane Katrina multiplied 100-fold.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
ya know, here’s yet another perfect example of how certain “Christians” have their priorities all screwed up, speaking of the horrible earthquake in China:
The Ingrid’s top post right now has a breaking news alert about China, but is it sending out prayers or asking for donations for the thousands of dead and injured in China? Haha, of course not, Ingrid doesn’t care. Instead she’s crowing about the latest snafu involving Bibles-for-China shipments or something.
Like, um, “Okay sweetie, we understand that China is an atheistic country that doesn’t take too kindly to religious expression of any kind, but, um, THAT’S NOT NEWS.”
meanwhile, untold thousands are suffering.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Eavn - It has become increasingly difficult to accurately describe how irrelevant Mrs. Schlueter has become. She used to walk on the edge, she has fallen into the abyss. Not the one Chris fishes at. She does remain a laboratory for object lessons in unchristian speech and behavior and the female dominated church of today.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
BTW - Her site has now become the official religious version of the National Enquire. It has all the things enquiring minds need to know.
*Teenage sex photos
*Personal divorces
*Fight clubs
*Maxi and mini scandals
*Private communication revelations
*Creative hyperbole
All that is missing is an article on the man from Mars!
May 12th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
“All that is missing is an article on the man from Mars!”
Taking “being not of this world” to a whole new level . . .
Where’s Iggy? That would be good article material for him.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
I think we need an article on Batboy.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Batboy was a compromiser.
Here is a question: If you are hired at a job and they forbid witnessing while you are on the clock should you consider accepting that job if everything else seems like your field? The answer is of course.
then why is it unreasonable to refrain from open prosalytizing at the Olympics according to their request? That is much different than being asked not to metion Jesus at a religious gathering, no? Mrs. Schlueter criticizing Franklin Graham is like my daughter criticizing John Wesley.
When will she come out and castigate Calvin for his many sinful deeds? In fact, when will some male authority figure fulfill their calling and correct her and her unbridled tongue? Father? Husband? Elder? Oh well, I guess God’s feminine side speaks through women like her.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
But why is the rum gone?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Forget Batboy! Mothman is so much more exciting and creepy! I think an article on Mothman could arouse a lot more mass hysteria.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Whoa. I didn’t intend for the entire sentence to be the link! I don’t understand computers . . .
May 12th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Hey guys,
I need some prayer at this time. I am having some hard times at work… my mom is in the hospital having had both knees replaced then getting an infection in one that was potentially lethal. They removed the infected area and will need to go in a third time on that same knee to remove the antibiotic pearls.
On top of all that my computer seems infected with a virus and I cannot find my xp disk to do what I need to do.
I am physically drained… mentally exhausted…
Pray I will be back to my superior LOL! self soon OK? = )
Thanks,
iggy
May 12th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Iggy,
I’m praying for you and your mom (and your computer)!
May 12th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
RA: “Ahhh, the loving ‘pastor’ does a drive-by.”
Ken Silva: Ahhh, the great “apologist” and exemplary Christian shows me the better way by not lowering himself to responding via ad hominem.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:07 am
“When will she come out and castigate Calvin for his many sinful deeds? In fact, when will some male authority figure fulfill their calling and correct her and her unbridled tongue? Father? Husband? Elder? Oh well, I guess God’s feminine side speaks through women like her.”
“Hilary = a man in drag…”
“Okay sweetie…”
There is definitely a culture here. I’ve been following some of these back and forth conversations for a while and apparently it is okay to condescend to gender when both actually both male and female are acting inappropriately. How about a sweetie pie, pat on the head, male ego in overdrive to the overwhelming majority of ODM’s who are men?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:17 am
KEN: Ahhh, the great “apologist” and exemplary Christian shows me the better way by not lowering himself to responding via ad hominem.
RA: 1. I’ve never called myself a “great apologist.” You, on the other hand, bill yourself as a loving pastor - and tbh I don’t see that manifested in any tangible way. 2. I’ve also never claimed I was an exemplary Christian - for the record, I am a sinner saved by grace who struggles daily, as we all do, to live Christlike by the power of the Holy Spirit, but like all followers of Jesus, I fail consistently, after which time I am moved to repent and try again. 3. I made no “ad hominum” since I accurately described what you did as a “drive by.”
Speak to the issues. If you are going to the Saddleback PDL conference, I’ll be there and you can say to my face anything you feel I need to hear. SO, I’ll see you there.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:23 am
RA,
Please get the face to face on video, I would love to see Ken’s short temper caught on video for all the world to see……
May 13th, 2008 at 9:24 am
RA: “Speak to the issues.”
Good advice. I look forward to when actually do.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Ken,
You’re the last person who has any credibility when it comes to chastising others for ad hominem attacks. Let us know when you’re serious about not using them yourself sometime. You can’t write an article about Brian McLaren without using the words “roshi”, “guru”, or “viper”.
I’m sure you think it’s cute when you do it…
May 13th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Ken,
I’ve spoken at great length to the issues. But speaking to the issues does not include false accusations, twisting the words of others, lying, baseless judgments, half-truths, name-calling, slander, bearing false witness, accusing the brethren, needlessly dividing the church, or being a pharisee. This might be where we differ on our definition of speaking to the issues.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“How about a sweetie pie, pat on the head, male ego in overdrive to the overwhelming majority of ODM’s who are men?”
Well, since I was the one who said “Okay, sweetie,” understand that I would have and do direct things like that at people like Peter LaBarbera, Tony Perkins, Matt Barber, etc. So, in my case, it has little to do with Ingrid being a woman.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I cannot in good Biblical conscience be gender blind as it pertains to Mrs. Schlueter. And the “sweetie pie” thing -
Trixie Norton - “Ed, the butcher was fresh to me today. When I asked him how much his chopped meat was he said, “$1.00 a pound, sweetie pie”.
Ed Norton - “That’s it. Don’t ever go back there, Trixie. $1:00 a pound is outrageous!
May 13th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Ken,
Are you going? It might add to your “credibility” to actually meet someone you attack… it would show you tried at least once to have integrity and honesty to meet them and try to understand them.
But I doubt you are man enough to face your proclaimed enemies… It seems you are like someone who would rather stand in the shadows and cast stones.
BTW is your doctrine completely and utterly without any error at all? Just wondering… = ) If it is then go ahead and cast all the stones you want at others… but personally; myself, I am a fallen man who trusts Jesus who was perfect for my salvation. In that I have found myself to be wrong many times in the past and look forward to being wrong in the future know and trusting that God in His perfect timing reveals truth and reasons with me Who He is which is how He changes us.
How about you? Ever been wrong and admitted it? That is called confession… it is a biblical thing…
As far as your “ad hominem” statement! LOL! When have you ever engaged in a real conversation without attacks and name calling or putting down the other person… in fact that comment pretty much sums up your total real conversation with anyone I know of! LOL! You mock yourself! LOL!
But you made me laugh and pray for you again today… = )
iggy
May 13th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I will be there at the special “Critics” session that will be held with Rick Warren and the critics who were invited. Ken, you were personally invited to come - expenses paid. I will see you there - if you accepted. Have you accepted? Let us meet face to face, man to man, Christian to Christian. And we can report here.
RAbanes
May 13th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
“Let us meet face to face, man to man, Christian to Christian.”
Two out of three ain’t bad!
May 13th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
“apparently it is okay to condescend to gender when both actually both male and female are acting inappropriately.”
It has nothing to do with gender . . . try “apparently it is okay to insult and tear down other Christians when actually Christians on both sides of the argument are acting inappropriately.”
May 13th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
While it is true that they are labels, and they are used both as instruments of pride and demeaning - there are indeed such things as liberals and conservatives.
Neil
May 13th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Liberals - unbelievers
Conservatives - believers
Biblically fixed.
May 13th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Ken Silva,
I think it would be beneficial and maybe even fun if we had a constructive dialogue. But your posts seem to be (nearly) exclusively condescending and ad hominem.
Would you be willing to address one of the issues at hand, such as “How is the manifesto ecumenical?”
Thanks in advance.
Neil
May 13th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Rick,
We really need a “sarcasm” emoticon for posts such as your last one… it would help lest people think you’re serious.
Neil
May 13th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Well, I’m somewhat serious. Liberalism theologically is a form of unbelief to me. Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by liberal.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Brother Rick, I feel the truth coming from your lips! There’s a great fire coming for those who dare vote liberal or even have a friend in kindy class whose sister thought about welfare being good.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:01 am
OK, I read the whole thing… all 20 pages. I can see where some ODM of the fundamentalist bent would take some of the comments personally, so would other Evangelicals.
That said, I saw no softening of the truth, no ecumenicalism, no salvation outside of faith in Christ…
Maybe Ken or another could point out something specific to help me out with what they find offensive.
Neil