Do as I say, not as I do

Posted by admin on May 1st, 2008
2008
May 1

Ingrid criticizes Doug Pagitt for using a clip from a popular TV show to illustrate a point about church.

I guess its only ok when she does it.

27 Responses

  1. Kevin I Says:
    May 1st, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    Now that ER clip was months ago, you know Slice finds new sins, heresies, and signs of the decline of the church all the time. I’m sure she’s made up.. I mean found four since breakfast today.
    .

  2. Rick Frueh Says:
    May 1st, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Pagitt - “I have been a fan of the show Desperate Housewives since it first came on the air in 2004. In fact the first season is the among the best narrative preaching I have ever heard - it is so good.”

    Absurditity sometimes needs little commentary.

  3. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 1st, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    Rod Flanders: Well, those folks from the senior center sure will love that peach tree we planted. I wish we could see their happy faces.

    Ned Flanders: Ahh! Sin of pride, Roddy.

    Rod: I’m sorry!

    Ned: Ahh! Sin of regret!

  4. Jerry Hillyer Says:
    May 1st, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    Tim,

    You are right: She’s a hypocrite.

    jerry

  5. iggy Says:
    May 1st, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    really can’t make this up.

    ROTFLOL!!!!

    iggy

  6. ianmcn Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 am

    Tim, that’s a brilliant quote! Do you have a clip of that? Any idea what series that’s from? It would make a great sermon illustration if it wasn’t a sin to use popular television as a sermon illustration…

  7. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 9:26 am

    Ian,
    I tried to find the actual episode it was from but was made of fail.

  8. Phil Miller Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 9:50 am

    I don’t think it’s the same episode, but there is a similar exchange in the Simpson’s episode Homer Loves Flanders.

    Rod and Todd watch a religious kid’s cartoon program.

    Father sheep: What’s wrong, Jeremiah?
    Jeremiah: It’s not fair. My brother Joseph has a sin to confess. I wish I had one too.
    Father sheep: Oh, don’t you see? You _do_ have a sin to confess — the sin of envy.
    [sheep baa their laughter]
    Todd: It’s all well and good for sheep, but what are we to do?
    Homer: Boring! Let’s watch something else.

  9. anonymousjane Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 10:38 am

    I so enjoyed the clip Pagitt shared in the context in which he placed it. I don’t have TV and I am not that familiar with Pagitt, so it was all new to me.

    … and no, I am not Amish.

  10. Diogenes Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 am

    This is certainly not an across the board defense of Ingrid but I don’t think she was criticizing the use of video clips from popular TV shows. She was troubled by Pagitt’s statements such as “In fact the first season is the among the best narrative preaching I have ever heard - it is so good.” It is not the use of clip but his belief that Desperate Housewives is a edifying show that troubles her. She may be wrong about that but she is not criticizing the use of a video clip so the charge of hypocrisy, at least this time, seems unwarranted.

  11. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 am

    Diogenes,
    Are you proposing that she was showing a clip of ER on her site and didn’t think it was edifying?

  12. merry Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:42 am

    “I don’t have TV and I am not that familiar with Pagitt, so it was all new to me.

    … and no, I am not Amish.”

    Lol! Don’t worry, I don’t have a TV either. :) If you were Amish, you wouldn’t have internet!

  13. Diogenes Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:59 am

    I think she was bothered by his high opinion of the show not his use of a video clip. It was the content of the clip not the use of a clip. She criticizes him for getting his theology from the show not the use of a video clip.

    She thought her clip was edifying because the content was one she agreed with. Pagitt’s wasn’t because she disagreed with the content. Her post was not about the use of video clips but the content of the one Pagitt used and his high regard for a show she would find consistently objectionable.

  14. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    If you were Amish I’d hit you up for some home made cheese. Those Amish now how to make some good cheese. And apple butter.

    Diogenes,

    She thought her clip was edifying because the content was one she agreed with. Pagitt’s wasn’t because she disagreed with the content. Her post was not about the use of video clips but the content of the one Pagitt used and his high regard for a show she would find consistently objectionable.

    He posted it because he agrees with the content of the show. Just as she did. It would be just as unfair for us to claim that she gets her theology from ER as it was for her to say that of DP.

  15. Diogenes Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    Yes, but I thought you were accusing her of hypocrisy because she used a clip but condemns Pagitt for using one. Your originally point had to do with the use of clips not the content of the clips.

  16. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    I edited my last comment too late, here was my addition:

    He posted it because he agrees with the content of the show. Just as she did. It would be just as unfair for us to claim that she gets her theology from ER as it was for her to say that of DP.

  17. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    As far as the charge of hypocrisy goes its because she does what he does, yet its a problem when he does it. She can glean something from ER and its ok, but if he gleans something from DH its a problem.

  18. Diogenes Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    One last try.

    It would on be hypocrisy if she condemned him for it, using video clips, but that is not what she condemned him for.

    Here is what she said and notice the title:

    Doug Pagitt: I Love Desperate Housewives

    If you wonder why Emergent pastor Doug Pagitt ended up at the Seeds of Compassion Event with the Dalai Lama and a busload of pagan religious figures in Seattle a few days ago, maybe it’s because he’s getting his theology from Desperate Housewives instead of the Bible. You really can’t make this up

    Where does she make reference to using video clips? She doesn’t. When you go the link she posted you do have a video clip but she does comment on the use of clips but the content.
    It is not the gleaning of something from a show that is the problem but Pagitt’s fondness for the show.

    Though she used something from ER she does not embrace the show the way Pagitt embraces Housewives. It is high regard for the show and belief that it consistently teaches good things that she has a problem with. She make not such claim about ER.

  19. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    Diogenes,
    Her exact claim for condemning Paggitt was “he’s getting his theology from Desperate Housewives instead of the Bible”, her evidence for such a claim was because he found Biblical principles in DH, even going so far as to post a video.

    As I demonstrated, she did the exact same thing with a clip from ER and doesn’t see a problem with it when she does it. In other words, do as Ingrid says, not as she does.

  20. Diogenes Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    Here is how Ingrid introduces her use of a clip:

    Someone sent me a clip of the TV show E.R. where they were apparently addressing the emergents and the good news of uncertainty. Well, it sure looked that way anyhow. Could it be that the vast right-wing conspiracy against emerging heresy has spread to a television program?

    It’s pretty shocking when a secular TV show has writers with a better grasp on the frightening emptiness of postmodern theology than the so-called “pastors” out there. The war against certainty and knowing has affected every area of life in the West. This brief clip demonstrates that as a postmodern chaplain tries to counsel a dying man. How many real dying people are given this same worthless pap while their souls are on the brink of eternity?

    Here is how Doug Pagitt introduces his:

    I have been a fan of the show Desperate Housewives since it first came on the air in 2004. In fact the first season is the among the best narrative preaching I have ever heard - it is so good.

    Two weeks ago they aired an episode on church that I thought was terrific. The entire episode is worth watching and you can here. I cut out 11 minutes worth of the Lynette storyline and have posted it here

    It is in my wheelhouse of opinion about church and the role of people, sermons and the pastor. Watching it I kept saying, “uh huh…

    “Someone sent me a clip” vs. “I have been a fan since 2004″ and “best narrative preaching I have ever heard”

    If you think those are equivalent, then I fear you have been spending too much time watchdogging the ODMs because you are starting to think like them.

  21. Tim Reed, Owosso MI Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Diogenes,
    Ingrid presented the clip as a narrative representation of truth, and obviously, didn’t have a problem with it.

    DP presented that show as a narrative representation of truth and Ingrid characterized him as getting his theology from the show.

    The same action by both, but a different characterization by Ingrid when she does it versus when DP does it.

    Its not that hard.

  22. Rick Frueh Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    I think both are true. My view of Pagitt’s being a fan of DH is already known. Mrs. Schlueter was referencing that as well. However, when SOL referenced ER she was not only using a TV program which I’m sure has many unbiblical things, but she suggested they were projecting theology.

    In that, Pagitt and Schlueter was identical. I guess Pagitt was more consistent in that he was a fan of the show where Mrs. Sclueter only picks an episode which seems to support her view. I absolutely loathe the use of fallen secular media to support any so called theology and to expose the sins of people. Like reaching into a cesspool to find truth.

  23. Phil Miller Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    I just went back to DP’s original blog post, and the comments section is pretty funny. I like this one:

    Doug,
    What you and your sarcastic friends and your favorite tv show fail to mention is that when the lady with cancer really needed an answer of truth and light based on her friends faith, her friend let her down. There is nothing redeaming [sic] about this segment. It displays an empty soul begging, crying, desperately pleading with someone to show her how to fill her God shaped hole in her heart and her friend tells her i don’t know what it is about my faith that keeps me together, in fact i just wanted to be auxiliary club president… Not once did she come alongside and say you know what? you may die of this cancer and i hope you don’t but if you do I want you to know the truth. The truth is Jesus lived 2000+ years ago in Israel, he was born of a virgin named Mary and he was and is the son of God and the son of man. He died on the cross for your sins and mine. His blood was splattered in the city square as they whipped him over and over and over. God turned his back on him at the last moment because he had to know the death of spirit to be the lamb for our sins. He just wants to have a relationship with you, one on one and all it takes is a little prayer and walking with him the rest of your life.

    I mean that’s all well and good - but it’s a TV show! It’s not real life. It just cracks me up to see people get so worked up over a TV SHOW!

  24. iggy Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    I am a fan of Survivor which is probably even worse than DH as it is real people stabbing each other in the back over money and not just “actors”…

    It could be my wheelhouse of opinion about church and the role of people, sermons and the pastor. Watching it I kept saying, “uh huh…
    … I am so evil and vile and heretical…

    Oh wait… did anyone catch it could “be my wheelhouse of opinion about church and the role of people, sermons and the pastor” and that I did not state it’s because “I get my theology from Desperate Housewives instead of the Bible.”

    Can’t anyone who disagrees with Doug see the difference there?

    In fact as i watched this video I could think of a number of people who I ahve been friends with who were just like these people.

    I was playing trivia pursuit with a very educated couple who did not know what the first book of the Bible was. We laughed at them until we realized they were serious!

    If you live in a “christian” ghetto i guess you would not meet real people with real questions. Even worse I guess you would just stand there as they go to their eternity without God and judge them for things like asking questions in church or not knowing the first book in the bible.

    iggy

  25. iggy Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    I guess I left a tag unclosed.

    It should be closed after…

    “I get my theology from Desperate Housewives instead of the Bible.”

    igs

  26. iggy Says:
    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Phil,

    Isn’t it funny how that person’s comment “got it” but still did not “get it at all?”

    Now that is the saddest part to me. To see so much but then still miss the point… it reminds me of a group of people in the bible….

    iggy

  27. Neil Says:
    May 3rd, 2008 at 9:26 am

    “Someone sent me a clip” vs. “I have been a fan since 2004? and “best narrative preaching I have ever heard”

    If you think those are equivalent, then I fear you have been spending too much time watchdogging the ODMs because you are starting to think like them.

    they are not - agreed. but that is not the point.