Todd Friel of Way of the Master surprised just about everyone and endorsed Mark Driscoll.

Now if God is truly speaking to these “discerners”, why they can’t be consistent in their pronouncements for or against someone? Just to update everyone’s score card:

Steve Camp – thinks Driscoll’s apostate
Ken Silva – thinks Driscoll’s apostate
Ingrid – thinks Driscoll’s apostate
Mike Corely – did something ODMs don’t typically do and visited Mark Driscoll. He no longer thinks Driscoll’s apostate
Todd Friel/WOTM – now endorses Driscoll

To speak in modernist terms, either Driscoll’s apostate or he isn’t. There is no grey area. How are we to tell which ODM truly has the gift of discernment?

Since the ODMs pride themselves on certainty, I’m certainly getting confused by their mixed messages.

*On a side note, Driscoll preached a sermon on Creation this past Sunday. He argues that the Bible is not a comprehensive scientific textbook and instead tells the who and what was involved with Creation. He personally believes in “historic creationism”, however, leaves room for other believers to hold other views (even allowing for theistic evolution). The only view he argues against is Atheistic Evolution.

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65 Comments(+Add)

1   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 6:48 am

Matt,

I agree with the “certainty” thing… I am more certain in my “emergingness” than what I am to believe according to all the ODM’s… on says one thing and another something else but they are directly opposed yet both “Truth”…

pastorboy never answered my question as to which “truth” is more true… his or Steve Camp’s… Ken Silva can’t even decide if he is a Calvinist or not! Todd Friel does not even seem to understand what he claims to believe and some push Baptismal regeneration and others condemn it as being RCC’ish… Ingrid can do contemplative prayers as long as the Puritans say so, but if you trust a desert mystic you are a heretic (though some were the ones that kept the teaching of Grace alive so that Calvin could read their teachings and give the ODM’s their doctrine!). Just read Spurgeon’s sermons then read St John of the Cross and you will see what Spurgeon is talking about when he refers to “the soul’s dark nights”! LOL! So even Spurgeon need be held suspect as he quoted Christian mystics! LOL!

I will agree in on thing… the all seem to be keeping with the tradition of the Great Reformers and seem to not agree with anyone… yet in some strange way all loved to attack common enemies.

As soon as Zwingli and Luther patch things up I will convert to Calvinism… ; ) I am certain of that!

iggy

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 7:35 am

“either Driscoll’s apostate or he isn’t.”

I do not consider him apostate. I say his methodology and speech are carnal. The reason Friel, Corley, and others give him a pass is because he claims Calvanism. If he was Arminian he would be with Warren and Hybels.

3   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 7:46 am

I might add I am wondering where all the “absolutism” is here? It seems all very relativistic to me as to what one deems as truth and another does…

It is all so confusing and we all know who the author of confusion is don’t we?

j/k (sort of)

iggy

4   shammah ben agee    http://endtheapostasy.blogspot.com
April 17th, 2008 at 8:57 am

This is interesting. I thought the emerging drek held to the belief that all pov are valid and there are no absolutes. Truth is unknown even to those who profess Jesus. (of course that belief also contradicts scripture and Jesus himself)
So iggy should be celebrating diversity with the odms.
As for the question you asked me on another post re: the new boss vs the old. I follow neither. I am not a calvinist and most definitely not arminian a theology which has no basis in scripture. That would also include wannabe judaism,charismania, papists,dispensationalists, the revisionist theology of the ecm, or any of the other 31 flavors of so called church.

5   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am

Todd Friel and WOTM hardly endorsed Driscoll.

You guys are becoming more and more like the ODM’s. A little more research and you would have heard Todd say that Driscoll is moving in the right direction, way to go…but still is critical of his language and some other shortcomings.

Todd has way more grace with people than most of the anti-discernment people who cannot even admit when Johnny Mac and JP is right.. (though they are more likely to give props to JP)

And Iggy, since I don’t know what Camp says, I won’t comment on it. I can only say that I believe that Regeneration/Repentance/Faith is simoultaneous. God gives them all! That is His wonderful grace!

6   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 17th, 2008 at 9:17 am

I thought the emerging drek held to the belief that all pov are valid and there are no absolutes. Truth is unknown even to those who profess Jesus.

This shows the ignorance of many ODMS. They assume that this is what most emerging church believes…. far from the truth.

It’s like me saying that all fundamentalist ODMs believe that http://www.godhatesfags.com is proper theology.

7   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am

Pastordude… Johnny Mac is right so many more times than you would know. It’s the rediculous personification of his majesty that the ODMs have created that we think is wrong.

8   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 9:21 am

Pastordude:

Friel says about Driscoll: “Mark Driscoll used to [be emergent] but now more and more, every single day, just preaching more boldly, clearly and confidently about the Scriptures. It’s kind of a wonderful transformation to see, I gotta tell you. Keep it up dude.” 4/3/08

Do you have more recent comment from Friel?

9   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 9:24 am

PB,

I linked to Steve twice for you… don’t give me that baloney.

iggy

10   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
April 17th, 2008 at 9:25 am

This is interesting. I thought the emerging drek held to the belief that all pov are valid and there are no absolutes. Truth is unknown even to those who profess Jesus. (of course that belief also contradicts scripture and Jesus himself)

And now you have no legitimacy to speak on any issue pertaining to the e/e church.

11   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 9:26 am

ben,

That goes to show what you really know of emerging then does it not? Not much by your comment.

Points of view are valid, yet you dodged that doctrine of the ODM’s is relative to whatever they see as truth… so they are no different though they mouth a difference.

iggy

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 9:31 am

“Do you have more recent comment from Friel?”

Yes:

Friel – “About what I just said about Driscoll, I don’t know. Sometimes I think one way and sometimes the other. I get so confused. I like him when he behaves like I want him to, however he may regress. My approval continues to be tethered directly to his continuing to “preaching more boldly, clearly and confidently about the Scriptures” – which means if he remains a Calvinist.

On another topic, I am announcing a Way of the Master tour this year entitled “The Joy of the Ten Commandments!!”. All events will take place in local cemeteries, it’ll be a blast!”

Those are his most recent comments! :)

13   nc    
April 17th, 2008 at 10:17 am

re: the emerging dreck is that all pov are valid.

No.

That would be the ODM dreck in their characterization of the conversation.

OR

the control oriented broad brush reaction to one or two writers. and the further reaction to people who refuse to end their friendship with those writers even if they disagree with them.

14   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 10:43 am

Todd has way more grace with people

ummm…I’m not sure those words should be together in a sentence.

Not that I don’t think Todd has grace towards people. I just think that most people don’t view it as grace.

15   clearly    http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 10:44 am

I would like to see some evidence that Ingrid and Ken think Driscoll is apostate.

I personally don’t think that we should use crass, course, graphic speech while preaching. I think it is a failure to let our manner of life be worthy of the gospel (Philippians 1) As Rick said, it’s simply carnal to use language like that. (btw. when Piper did said that God needed to kick us in the a$% at one of his conferences, I held him to the same standard. It was wrong and should be acknowledged and changed).

However, to call Driscoll apostate is a huge leap! I’m not a fan, but that doesn’t make the man a heretic…I still think he’s wrong, but not anathema.

16   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
April 17th, 2008 at 10:51 am

About what I just said about Driscoll, I don’t know. Sometimes I think one way and sometimes the other. I get so confused. I like him when he behaves like I want him to

Talk about egocentric. Todd Friel CEO of Christianity, do what he says and you’ll get promoted!

17   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 10:53 am

who cannot even admit when Johnny Mac and JP is right

I can admit when J-mac is right. But I can also find times when I’ve disagreed with his exegesis on scripture. In those times I have never questioned his salvation, created entire blogs devoted to casting aspersions on his character, and never have I conjured up fantastic adjectives to ascribe to who he is as a person. There in lies the difference.

A few examples:

OldTruth
A Little Leavan
Slice
Apprising
Extreme Theology
C?N

18   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 10:57 am

From Ken Silva:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2008/02/blasphemous_how.html

19   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am

I hope the nuanced humor in my spurious Friel quote wasn’t missed.

20   Mike Corley    http://mikecorley.org
April 17th, 2008 at 11:05 am

I agree that Todd statement was not necessarily an endorsement, but an encouragement. Either way, Todd has now become a member of the “you-used-to-be-faithful-but-now-you’re-a-compromiser’ Club.

I am very bothered by what seems to be the hunger of many, on both sides of opinion, that as long as there is a fight involved, then they take interest. Otherwise, a mature and responsible dialogue is ridiculed, criticized or ignored completely.

Well what are the heresy-behind-every-tree folks going to do now, when respected, learned, faithful brothers such as Piper, Dever, Mahaney, Friel, myself, (and I will even throw Steve Camp into this list, as while Steve disagrees and says so very adamantly sometimes, at least he is willing to dialogue rather than just holler heresy and throw everyone who smacks of a contemporary label under the proverbial bus).

Mark Driscoll preached a wonderful message during the most recent conference at MHC entitled Putting Preachers in their Place. Not a lot of gray areas in what he preached in that message.

So, I personally like Mark Driscoll, pray for him and his ministry and pray that I can work with him for the sake of the Gospel in the future.

Final note, Rick..you’re statement that “The reason Friel, Corley, and others give him a pass is because he claims Calvinism. If he was Arminian he would be with Warren and Hybels.”. was an inaccurate and unfair characterization. My dedication to the reformed faith is clear, but at no time have I made such blanket judgments. I love and support other ministries that are not specifically of the reformed faith, yet are dedicated to the cause of Christ.

21   nc    
April 17th, 2008 at 11:13 am

So…

who exactly is Todd Friel and why should I care what he thinks?

22   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 11:16 am

Mike – I believe Calvinist show other Calvinist deference, as do the other theological persuasions their own. However let it be known I do not care who endorses who, its just a game of evangelical chess. I will only answer for one, and he is very slippery. I doubt MacArthur desires to work with Driscoll but in these times who knows.

It is refreshing to see such stark disagreement among the reformed group, it shows all the conspiracies wrong! :)

23   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 17th, 2008 at 11:20 am

Who’s JP? Todd Friel has gace? Since when?

24   clearly    http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 11:23 am

Matt B, you are going to have to do better than that…

25   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 17th, 2008 at 11:31 am

Well! Matt B, you have been TOLD by Dave! I hope that sent you scurrying to your room so you can start studying better now, buddy! You are going to have to do better than that!

26   clearly    http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 11:48 am

I think when Ken used the word blasphemy concerning Driscoll, he meant the Colossians 3:8 kind of blasphemy, the type that is indicative of the old life, but should be put away by the Christian. This is no sense means that Driscoll is a heretic in Ken’s eyes, but rather that he is failing to live out the ethical imperatives that Paul believes should flow from his new nature. Colossians 3:8 makes it clear that even Christians can fall into blasphemy.

Is that better Joe? It always concerns me that my posts may not measure up to your academic level:)

27   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am

Now Dave,
I am but a simple country boy trying to learn from you edumacted types. Your post to Matt just struck me as hilariously funny.

28   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 17th, 2008 at 11:53 am

thank you Mike :)

29   Sandman    
April 17th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Speaking only for myself, I have to wonder how many of us take time to stop and think about how many of our personal opinions and persuasions we’ve elevated to the level of convictions.

I think I have very few convictions: Deity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation by grace apart from works, etc.; these things I can’t compromise on.

I probably (since I haven’t numbered them all) have more persuasions. My position on the role of women in ministry, mode of baptism, Calvinism/Arminianism, use of spiritual gifts today, alcohol consumption, etc. These are good things to discuss, debate and understand your reasons for being of a particular persuasion, but not to the point of breaking fellowship with those who share my convictions.

Then I have tons of opinions: Music, style of worship, dress, language, which translation of the Bible, etc. Again, If they share the convictions, we’re sharing some of the persuasions, I may not share the same opinion as some other person in some other church, but I’m not going to grieve someone over a personal preference.

Paraphrasing, we are told in the NT to stop arguing with each other, but instead, let each be convinced in his own mind. In other words, keep our opinions to ourselves.

Now, regardless of where you stand for or against the standard list of ODMs and their critics, are you casting aspersions based on conviction-level beliefs, or persuasions and opinions that have been elevated to conviction level-beliefs?

Just something to think about.

30   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Does anyone else think it’s ironic that Friel says something overwhelmingly positive about Driscoll to introduce his topic of the day and certain folks tell us it’s not really an endorsement, but Rob Bell has a tiny endnote buried in the back of his book about someone and most of the ODMs point to it as proof that he’s a heretic.

In any case, who among the discerners should I listen to? Please, enlighten me with the gnostic secret knowledge some of you possess. Driscoll good or bad?

31   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Matt I do find it ironic:

Matt B, you are going to have to do better than that…

And additionally I say:

Dave I find interesting that you are a “charitable reader” of Kens words but refuse to do the same with Bell, Driscoll, Padgitt, McLaren, Kimball, Warren, etc… Why is this?

Somewhat of a restating of Matts point but I would like an answer?

32   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

“Driscoll good or bad?”

Both, but it’s a secret. :)

33   Neil    
April 17th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

I thought the emerging drek held to the belief that all pov are valid and there are no absolutes.

This pretty much sums it up in a nutshell – create a caricature and attack the caricature. Don’t let the facts get in the way.

Neil

34   clearly    http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Chris, the article said that Ken thinks Driscoll is apostate. Ken’s article that Matt B linked to says that Driscoll committed blasphemy by using our Savior for the punchline of an off-color joke.

a. conclusion: ken thinks that driscoll is apostate
b. grounds: he called him a blasphemer on his web-site.

If blasphemer doesn’t equal apostate, the argument doesn’t work. Furthermore, Ken told me in an email that he doesn’t believe Driscoll to be apostate.

Who’s on a witch-hunt now?

35   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Perhaps Silva should print a retraction:

“Driscoll has since distanced himself publicly but from what I know from other sources I personally don’t buy it. They are all into this “missional kingdom” building which is actually a twist on dominion theology.”

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/03/emergent_church_33.html

36   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Ken on Driscoll: here, here, and here, for starters.

Ingrid, though, is absolutely vitriolic. You can go here, or (particularly) here:

This is not the Church of Jesus Christ. Our Savior does have a Bride, and she is being kept pure and spotless and chaste. The whore church that has no heart for holiness, that would rather sponsor dance contests than prayer meetings, that makes like Belshazzar’s Feast with the champagne flowing and voluptuous partying, instead of seeking God’s help to walk rightly in increasingly bleak times, is not the Bride of Christ. It goes against everything we read in Holy Scripture about the conduct and comportment of those who have left the world behind, taken up their crosses and followed in the Christ’s footsteps.

So – did the “a” word get trotted out, specifically? No – but it’s hard to charitably view the minister of “the whore church” being anything but…

37   Neil    
April 17th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

And, in case those don’t count because he never uses the A or H words. There is this.

Silva quoates Dricoll and then says:

…Here is a fatal flaw in this movement, which by its impudent attempt at reversing the Protestant Reformation by its open embrace of apostate Roman Catholicism as a legitimate form of Christianity reveals that it cannot possibly be from God.

So, according to Silva Driscoll is embracing and promoting apostate doctrine that cannot be from God.

Neil

38   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

I think if one is honest about Ken Silva, that when you read him… if it has anything do to with the much hated RCC, and remotely connected it is apostate…. be it Rick Warren or the Emerging church or Emergent Village or Rob Bell…

So if one sees him connect that person with the RCC in any way even by degrees…. Driscoll is embracing “the apostate Roman Catholicism as a legitimate form of Christianity”.

Now, some will say that is a stretch, but really IF Mark is remotely part of the emerging church… which he is and has historical roots… then he is guilty of what Ken claims of all of the emerging church and Rick Warren and TD Jakes and Frank Page and McManus and whoever that broad brush Ken paints with even slightly splatters.

It is all one big conspiracy that the Pope and RW are doing to bring a one purpose driven world.

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2008/03/come_out_from_a.html

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/04/itas_official_a.html

Just for starters… but Ken is just another conspriacy theory nutjob… instead of the Illuminate, it is the RCC and Rick Warren the New Purpose Driven Pope… and in that mess, Mark Driscoll is an apostate.

iggy

39   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

Oh here is the link to the Purpose Driven World that these guys think is happening…

It is not Ken, but Ken reads this guy and uses him as a resource…

iggy

40   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

Furthermore, Ken told me in an email that he doesn’t believe Driscoll to be apostate.

Then Ken should print a retraction to his innumerable pages that have every adjective other than apostate in regards to Driscoll.

As I stated above ODM websites have the intent purpose of pointing out heretical, blasphemous, apostate, wayward churches.

41   nc    
April 17th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

Ummm….

so…

who is ken silva…and on what basis should I care what he thinks?

42   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

nc

who is ken silva…and on what basis should I care what he thinks?

You speak truth in volumes! = )

iggy

43   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

I thought this thread was about Friel’s endorsement of Driscoll and I’m getting deja vu seeing it evolve into Ken Silva.

44   nc    
April 18th, 2008 at 7:46 am

How about…

Ummm….

who is Todd Friel, Ken Silva, Ingrid Schlueter, et. al and why should I care what they think?

45   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 18th, 2008 at 8:27 am

I think Rick is right. Everything ends in Ken Silva and Ingrid and Steve Camp on this site. Most people who moderate this site and post here have a clear hatred for these people, and that is sad.

It is really sad to see Christians hating each other. It does not matter if you close your postings with blessings when you just got done cursing.

Iggy, I don’t read Steve Camp, even when linked. I don’t know what he thinks, and frankly do not care. I go with the scripture.

Todd Friel Still didn’t endorse Driscoll. He did encourage him to keep walking toward the light so to speak.

JP is John Piper

Mike Corely: Amen

Peace out.

46   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 18th, 2008 at 8:33 am

JP= Piper. Oh, I’ve read almost all of his stuff. SHHHH, don’t tell anyone, I don’t want to ruin any labels that have been made for me by others. ;0

47   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 8:49 am

Pastordude-

This site was created because of people like Ken, Ingrid, and Steve. None of us hate any of them. Some of us pray for them on a regular basis.

I can’t speak for everyone on here but my personal belief is that there are some mental health issues going on with some of them.

48   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 9:14 am

Rick: I thought this thread was about Friel’s endorsement of Driscoll and I’m getting deja vu seeing it evolve into Ken Silva.

PB/D:I think Rick is right. Everything ends in Ken Silva and Ingrid and Steve Camp on this site. Most people who moderate this site and post here have a clear hatred for these people, and that is sad.

Now – who is it that brought this thread to focus on Ken & Ingrid, rather than the OP. I wonder who…? Let’s scroll up and look, and we have:

Dave Marriott (clearly): I would like to see some evidence that Ingrid and Ken think Driscoll is apostate.

Granted, Ken/Ingrid/Steve were mentioned in a supporting point of the OP, but the overall focus of the OP…

Matt B:This site was created because of people like Ken, Ingrid, and Steve. None of us hate any of them. Some of us pray for them on a regular basis.

I can’t speak for everyone on here but my personal belief is that there are some mental health issues going on with some of them.

What he said… yeah.

49   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 9:18 am

PB,

Iggy, I don’t read Steve Camp, even when linked. I don’t know what he thinks, and frankly do not care. I go with the scripture.

How closed minded you are of the”Truth”… again, you show a lack of real interest in looking at the situation from any perspective than your own relativistic one…

I am pointing out that you and Steve both “go to the scripture” yet you seem to think your view is the right one… yet want us to bow to you and Steve to him ans your perspective views… as you both think you have the “Truth” and correct understanding.

Yet you ungraciously go after others… again… you seem more relativistic than any or the emerging folk I talk to daily!

Again, who do we follow if we are to be as “reformed” as you want us to be? I mean you are stating SC is wrong apparently and that means Piper and JM and Calvin are all wrong… let alone Zwingli and a host of others…

If you guys are uncertain as to who is right how can you sit in judgment over others? (Which is the folly of judging others, John.)

iggy

50   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am

Although it is used in a hyperbolic way, the word “apsotate” actually means someone who has denied the faith. It does not mean someone who is in error or even someone who has heretical teachings. It is someone who openly denies the faith of Jesus (the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified).

That is a serious but very rare event. I have only seen a couple personally.

51   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am

It is really sad to see Christians hating each other.

Agreed! But I think you posted that comment on the wrong blog.

52   Neil    
April 18th, 2008 at 10:18 am

I think Rick is right. Everything ends in Ken Silva and Ingrid and Steve Camp on this site. Most people who moderate this site and post here have a clear hatred for these people, and that is sad.

Speaking for myself, of course, I do not hate any of them. I oppose their tactics and attitude. At times this does spiral into shear frustration at their shameful methodology, but we usually compose ourselves, offer a mia cula, and return to addressing the issues not the personalities.

I wish there were a way to filter the shallow and petty arguments based on “OH Yeah,,, well you do the same…” and all the variants therein.

Neil

53   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 18th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Chris, I disagree. I have never seen any of your names on any of the ODM blogs (except for Tim Reed’s, this is how I discovered this blog) They do not continually spew your names and say ‘they believe this and that’

They do go after Brian McClaren, Rob Bell, Oprah, Mark Driscoll, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Rick Warren, et.al because their teachings are at worst heretical and at best way off base. There are some in that group which are clearly apostate in my mind (sorry Rick) but we will let God sort that one out. I do not hate any of these people listed, though I strongly disagree with some or all of their teachings and warn my flock about them.

Iggy,
If my reference to going with the scripture is closed minded, then I guess I am closed minded. However, I believe all of God’s truth is revealed in nature, the Scripture, and His Son Jesus. I don’t need to look to Steve Camp, Zwingli, Calvin, or Iggy to determine what truth is. I have the Holy Spirit who illumines the Word to my heart and that is all I need. {A Johnny Mac study Bible is a good tool, though…:)}

54   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Funny that Ken and Ingrid and there supporters can attack and call names and insinuate that if one backs McManus they lack intelligence….

Yet, if someone like myself holds a day of prayer of blessing for Ken Silva, I am “hating” him… In fact I am mocked by His Holiness, Ken himself for doing such a thing…

So, it seems there is “hate” plus a totally lack of willingness for reconciliation and it is not from myself or people here at this site.

iggy

55   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 18th, 2008 at 10:44 am

Ken is not His Holiness. That kind of comment shows a complete disconnect from what you stated before.

You can pray all day for him, and fast, but you should pray for yourself so you don’t keep on letting your sarcasm seethe over about these people.

I am only responsible for myself, Iggy, and my attitude. Let me suggest that reconciliation and forgiveness can start with you and others on this site. Instead of continuing to write about what is bad about the ODM’s, why not focus on what is good about Christ? Who cares if they keep on discerning? If they are not speaking truth, they will be judged by God.

Oh, you claim the fundies and the ODM’s need you and this site to hold their feet to the fire. Yet you say we don’t allow the Holy Spirit to work. Talk about the pot and the kettle…

Point me to your purpose for this site all you want. There is a serious disconnect and a large amount of hypocrisy here.

Keep praying for Ken, but don’t o so as long as you have the Ken Silva’s church growth chart on your Itodyaso site.

hypocrisy.

slander.

unchristian hatred.

56   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 10:51 am

PB,

Comparing my site to yours, I have much less attacks on people and much more teaching and sharing the reconciliation of Christ to others..

It seems you also do not have a sense of humor…

I also want to point out that you are doing the typical, “iggy, you do it to” approach that is so rampant in your camp…. sadly I want to warn you as you stand before Jesus, “iggy did it too” will not stand up as a good answer to Jesus when he asks you why you judged His servants…

What I see is a real lack of maturity from you John. You seem to be gleeful in your put downs of others and quick to point out my faults as well as others. But seem to have no interest in doing the “focus on what is good about Christ” you desire me to do… I do that dude… will you?

Again, instead of offering me reconciliation you call me names… again… I just see a lack of maturity from you…

Why don’t you practice what you preach and hold yourself accountable as you claim?

iggy

57   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 18th, 2008 at 10:52 am

John,
You said,

“. Instead of continuing to write about what is bad about the ODM’s, why not focus on what is good about Christ? Who cares if they keep on discerning? If they are not speaking truth, they will be judged by God.”

Have you been to your blog(s)? You have an entire blog devoted to attacking Tony Jone’s book. Most of your posts have nothing to do with the what is good about Christ and everything that is bad about what you perceive to be emergent. Then you have the guts to call us hypocrites! My friend, go read your blogs. You have a post called “church of the week” where you mock a church that is part of Christ’s bride. Your pot and kettle example is appropriate. Apply this standard you are calling for to yourself.

58   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 18th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Joe,

The church of the week is not even a church. It is called a joke.

I have not personally attacked Tony, who I consider a friend. I disagree with a lot of his teachings. Okay, most of them.

I attack a movement within the church which has a lot of false and dangerous teachings. Yes. I own that.

I attack the teachings/writings of men like Mclaren, Pagitt, Jones, Bell, Warren, to name a few. I do not attack them personally. There is a difference.

59   Pastordude    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
April 18th, 2008 at 11:09 am

Iggy, you called names, not me.

I have other blogs which are dedicated to teaching and bible study and encouragement. I also have a Discernment blog. I stand by my attitude in my writings. I am held accountable by my denomination(which does not agree with all of my writings), my elder board, and the people in the congregation.

60   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 11:20 am

John – they have mentioned Tim, Nathan, and I think Chris. I have also been criticised on both CRN and Old Truth. I don’t mind, it probably raises my blog hits! I have wriiten about Ken and Ingrid on my blog with a positive reference this current post.

I have written about the teachings of others also but never about them personally. I have spoken in positive terms about the personal lives of some about whom I differ strongly as it pertains to doctrine. I have even alluded to the fact that MacLaren seems like a real nice guy!

61   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 11:25 am

“I have wriiten about Ken and Ingrid on my blog with a positive reference this current post.”

What I meant to say was I have written negatively about both Ken and Ingrid, however I have mentioned Ken with a positive reference this post.

62   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 18th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Rick and PB,

I have also given Kudos to writers at CRN. In fact one was sending me his articles pre posting to get my opinion.

The other banned me from his blog… as I questioned his misuse of Luther.

iggy

63   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 18th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

No, there’s not. The writings of those people you defend are attacked here. When they are attacked personally by an author it is called out and apologized for.

64   nc    
April 18th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

RE: Joe’s last comment.

And that “apologizing” makes all the difference.

65   Dave Muller    http://blog.thewebsiteguy.com.au
April 19th, 2008 at 12:23 am

On a side note, Driscoll preached a sermon on Creation this past Sunday.

I’m really unhappy about that – there was no swearing! Hello?? Can you post his potty ones?

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  1. Way of The Master Endorses Mark Driscoll! « The Online Discernmentalist Mafia    Apr 17 2008 / 7am:

    [...] I am begining to wonder if some are switching sides in this Truth War. Now it seems Todd Friel endorses Mark Driscoll. A spy showed me this article at a very backslidden blog. [...]