to even “suggest” some gay “might” be a christian is scandalous. but a murdering, adulterer, with multiple wives is a “man after god’s own heart.”
for the most part the evangelical movement has no voice on the gay issue. they speak out of hatred and phobia. and then we have ted haggard (not to point him out because there are probably hundreds of such men in the pulpit)
i was researching a pastor i once knew and respected very much.(arrested for sexual crimes, died before his trial) i came across this site:
i support brian mcclaren’s suggestion, or was is tony campolo, that we take a 5 year sabbatical from our evangelical pronouncements about homosexuality. time to really think about this issue and how we have dealt with it in the past and how we intend to deal with it in the future.
Brutus - I believe you speak of Bob Gray. I also was an independent baptist in the Jack Hyles mold. Of course a person can be a Christian and be a homosexual. Can a person be addicted to pornography and be a Christian? The issue is that people like MacLaren and Campolo question the sinfulness of it.
That is a departure. The church has been smug and self righteous and even uncaring, that must change. This is a sad story of a gay murder. You don’t see students murdering other students because they bring pornography to school.
yes bob gray. his first victim was in 1949. how does a man go through 50 years of ministry and get by with such evil? people knew, yet said nothing. i think of all the times i heard him preach over the years………..all the while he was molesting children and women.
i am not sure i agree that camplo and mcclaren don’t believe in the sinfulness of such things. i think they point to our obsession with sexual matters (and maybe a misplaced obsession) at the expense of other issues.
i see it this way……….evangelical preacher gets up in the pulpit and rails against homosexuality. probably not a homosexual in the crowd. kinda like preaching on faithful church attendance to those who are faithfully attending church.
the catholics have it right. the deadly sins………greed lust envy gluttony sloth pride wrath……………now there is some sins that the average preacher could spend some time on.
evangelical preacher gets up in the pulpit and rails against homosexuality. probably not a homosexual in the crowd. kinda like preaching on faithful church attendance to those who are faithfully attending church.
except that there are gay people in the crowd. there are gay people in even the most hateful of churches…granted, these are gay people who can’t bear to admit their true desires even to themselves alone in a dark room…so what happens is that these gay people are barraged with a constant diatribe about how who they are and feelings they cannot control are so evil in God’s eyes that they sink further and further into self-hatred. the outer manifestation of this is usually intense homophobia. these are the men and women who protest the loudest, who rail the loudest against that which they cannot kill off inside themselves. out of these come ones who occasionally snap and string Matthew Shepard up to die slowly in the middle of nowhere because he made a pass at them, or murder a classmate because he asked them to be his valentine. also out of these come the ones who finally reach a breaking point of another kind, come to terms with themselves, leave the church completely, but end up harboring a lifelong resentment towards God, Christians, religious people in general…
(((i support Brian Mcclaren’s suggestion, or was is Tony Campolo, that we take a 5 year sabbatical from our evangelical pronouncements about homosexuality. time to really think about this issue and how we have dealt with it in the past and how we intend to deal with it in the future.)))
How sweettttt..I lived in a bi lifestyle for 10 years, my flat mate and boss (i’m is carer) is gay …Time to wake up bud as my friend says theres no nice way to tell him is avenue to love is sinful, how ever you spin it..Bottom line its a sin or its not, like Rob (my friend) says people can be as nice as they want their still stabbing him with a smile
and that’s the reson for the time out. let’s look at the issue. let’s look at the texts. let’s look at the context. let’s look at the historical background.
then……..
whatever conclusion we come to…………preach the truth, in love. stop being gay-haters and gay-bashers.
many people are anti-homosexual because it is foreign to their thinking. a straight guy doesn’t understand it at all……….. if we are going to codemn millions of people to hell the nwe at leat owe it to them to know why we are doing to. our gay-hating father’s training is not enough.
i ran this gay man right out of church. met him at the door and told him his type wasn’t welcome in our church. that was nineteen years ago.
i wonder what kind of friend i could have been had i not been raised to hate homosexuals. had i not been indoctrinated by by religion that the only people more despised than the devil were gays. had i not taught our church to hate.
Brutus ive talked to my friend about this site, also the change in attitude towards the gay issue,and he replied seems like your all trying to make yourself feel better,and then he follows it with am i still a sinner
Like he said there is no way to tell him “his being” is sinful however lovingly you say it..
‘allo! red wine is a beast. i was about to say it’s always 6 somewhere, but i guess it’s a little after 10 there.
i do love England…
am i still a sinner
yeah, but not b/c he’s gay.
me too, and it’s not b/c i’m gay either.
I confess i’m haunted by the idea that saying homosexuality is sinful will be compared in the future as saying slavery was ok
you’re probably right. the comparison is already being made.
i’ve said it on here before, but i’ll repeat it. when science and observable reality (1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things…) conflict with an interpretation of scripture, A. it’s not an attack on religion, and B. it’s time to rethink the interpretation that scripture, and C. my dog is barking at Bjork, and i don’t know why.
i’ve said it on here before, but i’ll repeat it. when science and observable reality (1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things…) conflict with an interpretation of scripture, A. it’s not an attack on religion, and B. it’s time to rethink the interpretation that scripture, and C. my dog is barking at Bjork, and i don’t know why.
I confess i’m haunted by the idea that saying homosexuality is sinful will be compared in the future as saying slavery was ok
Apples and oranges, Andy…
I would recommend Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis by William Webb, who’s done an in-depth hermeneutical study on the issues of slavery, the role of women in the church and homosexuality. Similarly, other hermeneutics see the two issues VERY differently, as the practice (not orientation) of homosexual sex is treated consistently as a cross-cultural prohibition - the same as lying, stealing, murder, etc.
The problem arises when Christians treat one sin (homosexual practice) MUCH differently than other sins (lying, cheating, stealing, gossip, heterosexual promiscuity, etc.) The solution is not to declare one sin (as defined by God) no longer a sin, over-correcting the error. Rather, it requires recalibrating the way we treat ALL sin, differentiating between a specific temptation and the acting out upon that temptation.
Rather, it requires recalibrating the way we treat ALL sin, differentiating between a specific temptation and the acting out upon that temptation.
there’s a logical problem with that reasoning, and it’s this: i’ll try to make this as concise as i can…
take all other things an orthodox would put in the category of “sexual sin.”
temptation to heterosexual lust - oversexualizing a person, etc…baseline is the inherent sexuality which brings about that lust.
temptation to heterosexual adultery - cheating on your spouse with someone else…baseline is the inherent sexuality which would cause someone to be tempted in that way.
temptation to heterosexual promiscuity - screwing around…baseline is the inherent sexuality that would make a person want to screw around.
homosexuality - baseline is…homosexuality. gay people don’t have the inherent heterosexual feelings, and though there is a spectrum of sexuality, the great majority have NEVER had heterosexual feelings. it’s not a “temptation” per se. it’s not like the entire population has the same baseline, yet a percentage just also happens to be “tempted” toward those of the same sex. to call it so is to misstate things completely. it merely is what it is, and any “ex-gay” who tells you otherwise is just lying to themselves (again).
…Like he said there is no way to tell him “his being†is sinful however lovingly you say it..
There is, of course, a difference between “being” and “doing.” Being born with a desire does not make it biblically acceptable - or “not a sin” to engage in the behavior. Therefore the whole argument of homosexual origin is moot.
Re: “1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things” - I’d have to say… “So?” Many female insects kill the male after his “job” is done, many species mate with different partners every season, others still the male abandons the female after he’s had his go at her and she’s reproduced for him - should we then reconsider what the Bible might say about murder, promiscuity, and the role of a father?
Don’t get me wrong though… I’m right there with ya when it comes to the church treating homosexuality as if it were worse than other sins. I’d even go so far as joining the moratorium on our obsession. What Dan Kimball wrote on the subject really resonated with me. I’ll see if I can find it, but he basically came to the conclusion that it was sin, but also argued that the church has not dealt very well with it… didn’t the ODM’s take him to task for that?
no, b/c the insect example is pretty much just that. the insect example.
the homosexuality thing goes pretty much trans-phyla, trans-genus, trans-species. it’s just one of those things that seems to be.
Point is - if we’re going to take our cues from nature we cannot pick and choose. The fact that it “seems to be” has no bearing on the biblical argument.
…and seriously, when a desire exists before one even knows what to CALL that desire, how does one equate it with other earthly “temptations.â€
I’m not talking temptation, since I do not believe temptation to be a sin.
As for a desire exist[ing] before one even knows what to CALL that desire - any parents can speak of the sinful pull that a two-year old harbors long before the child knows that there is even a thing called “right” and a thing called “wrong.”
The entire question centers on do those feelings come from God or are they an effect caused by the inherrant sin within us. Some sins come forth as more prominent while others remain dormant. Just the fact they exist does not equate divine approval as is sometimes insinuated by the man who is sexually drawn to 2 yr. olds.
I believe we are all born with the full compliment of sins within the framework of the sin nature. Although God desires restraint even in a secular society, we as believers must remain humble, loving, and fully engaged in the ministry of reconciliation. It is self serving to isolate some sins and treat them as special whipping boys which increases our self righteousness while at the same time seems ineffective at reaching the captives.
Divine love sacrifices detachment and acts on the behalf of that which it loves, even if it means an uncomfortable indentification with the ones who need redemption. That would be, of course, the Incarnation which should be our example.
Sin is a deep and sometimes complex issue that is taken much too lightly sometimes, after all, look what it took to gain forgiveness - which is also taken much too lightly as well.
All I have to say is this….all sin is sin, and we are born with a sin nature. There is no worse sin in God’s eyes, all sin is offensive to God. And all sinners will have the same ending:
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
So now is the time to repent (turn from) your sin by confessing (agreeing with God it is sin) and forsaking (leaving it behind) and place your full trust in Christ alone for salvation.
And by the way, we are all born with a sin nature, so you can say that a man’s proclivity towards sex with males is something you are born with. We do not need to be taught how to sin. Problem is, most homosexuals (and heterosexuals) will not admit that their sin is sin in God’s eyes! They say that the Bible is not up to date with current culture, or that sin may have been sin when the Bible was written, but Paul’s comments on women and homosexuals are not valid for today.
Poppycock.
Jesus Christ- the same yesterday, today and forever. Leviticus 18 is as valid as Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.
And God still sees lying lips as an abomination, so when I lie, I need to admit I have lied and I need to repent.
And if you struggle with pornography, you need to do the same. And if you are an homosexual who acts on his homosexual urges, you need to do the same.
We need to quit trying to change the Bible to fit with our lives, and just take the law for what it says. When we find (which we will if we read with an open heart) that we are sinners, and that we are hopelessly lost, we can then call to God by his mercy to save us. And He will.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.â€
Ig - everyone has lied, let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar. But now are we washed by the blood of the Lamb. You guys, inq., Ig, Tim, Pastor, and all of us who have been born again are brothers in Jesus Christ. We mat have differences and we might argue, but in eternity we will worship together!!
I do know that… yet when someone just posts a scripture and no comments with it, I just wonder which part they are focusing on… Is it ‘the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars” or just one out of all those… and notice it states “all” liars? Should we take that to be just the “Elect” kind of “all” that just means many?
I have so many questions… scripture can speak to one person on one point and another not even notice that point as they only see the one they see…
I guess it could mean all Elect are liars and God is alone true…
To me, one cannot be a child of God and any of those things in that list… they can be a child of God and struggle with those sins… but God is true to His faithfulness and will save His children… or sin has not been forgiven…
But since it has, if I cling to being a thief and a lawyer…errr I mean liar, as my identity… or cling to a false God… and so on, then I am not walking as one who trusts God alone.
If one’s main identity is “I am gay” then I would venture they do not know God… but if they know God then they need to know they are a New creation and God can change us in His time and by His priorities… as ours often get in the way.
If one’s main identity is “I am gay†then I would venture they do not know God…
i guess i’ll start here.
just got home…. *giggle*. late night. we had a hell of a lot of fun. anyway. um. i would suggest that the only people for whom their “main identity” is that they’re gay is those who either A. just came out (because that’s a moment, to be sure) or B. those who, sadly, have nothing else to define them, but i would suggest that that’s a human issue…i meet people all the time who have absolutely no personality, but (someone’s coming to mind…) they know that people can say “well, he’s a good lay.” (or she…) like i said, someone came to mind (not from personal experience…haha…and i would admit it, too)…but that’s an issue that has nothing to do with sexuality. you can find that anywhere. sadly. but, for most gay people, that’s not even the issue. my best friend and I joke that sometimes we have to be reminded that we’re gay, that there’s something different…because honestly it’s not something that crosses either of our minds that often. it’s just a piece of who we are. sure, i have a masochistic knack for dialoguing in places like this (kidding for those who deserve my kidding), and my best friend, raised Catholic, quite secure spiritually, loves God, loves Christ, but would never set foot (or mouse/keyboard) into a place like this….because he doesn’t have the patience. he just doesn’t. tonight was his birthday, and we celebrated like tomorrow wasn’t coming…i guess the point of this post is to give a picture of real life for a typical gay person…
so. and i’m going to be blunt, because i’m trying to clear up misconceptions.
we went out, three of us, to a gay club (which is very welcoming to straight people! [they all are]). none of us were “trolling for sex.” we went out, had drinks (yeah, we’re healthy drinkers), we danced our tails off, i chit-chatted with a nice guy i met the night before…maybe we’ll go out, maybe we won’t, i dunno yet. then we went back to my best friend’s house and ate ice cream cake and wound down, and i came home.
perfect night.
i’m not attempting to delve into the issues that you all debate regarding homosexuality, i’m just trying to give you a picture of what a night’s really like for three sexy young guys (yeah. look at our myspace/facebook pages. we’re young and cute as hell…not that we’re arrogant. *grin* “still got it…”) haha. yeah, anyway, i’m just trying to give a picture of what it’s really like for us, as well adjusted gay men.
i just want you all to have an accurate picture. i’m quite aware that there are those out there (like that stupid moron Peter LaBarbera) who will sensationalize every fringe event that people who happen to be gay have…they post their “reports” and use them to give people a false impression of what gay people are really like.
so.
Peter lies. his organization lies. CWA lies. (about everything.) FOTF lies. none of them actually know what life is like for a “typical” gay person (as if there’s such a thing as “typical.” like you can pigeonhole the “typical straight experience”…)
so….here’s my point, that maybe i’ve been building up to since i started posting here…(if you remember, i found this joint because of some asinine BS Peter LaBarbera posted on his hate-site about your space here)…look. i’ve been out of the closet for ten years. i’m quite content with who i am. i love God, i follow Christ, i am who i am, and all that that entails. one small, but inextricable, part is my sexuality. whatever. so i’m looking for my knight in shining armour, rather than a princess. it’s one part of me. i’m a classically trained pianist, with a major in classical piano performance, a singer, a composer, a singer/songwriter/pianist (to put it all together…if you want to pick out a specific to define me by, that’s it. screw sexuality.) i’m an avid reader, i’m a political wonk, i’m a dog lover, i’m an amateur wine connoisseur, i’m a talented salesperson (though i have no passion for it whatsoever…but whatever pays the bills for the moment…), i’m a bitch, i’m a lover, i’m a child, i’m a…oh wait, i just started quoting that song…no. one hit wonders need not apply. anyway.
the point is i’m just a person like all of you.
i read words from those of you who seem to feel you must insist on your version of “Biblical Truth” about that part of who i am, and i acknowledge your beliefs, but i do want you to understand that if you harbor any hopes that i, or any other well-adjusted gay person will “see the light,” you’re barking up the wrong tree. perhaps it’s one of those things where personal experience, aided by God, is the true teacher. i have remained around here (and i hope to continue…i like having a “forum”) out of a desire to show a perspective some may not be used to, but there’s no agenda…it’s just me. i happen to be a person who has existed in a lot of different Christian “neighborhoods” and i understand the language of most of them.
i feel that, even among those in the posse who actually seem to genuinely want to show love to all people, there are still misconceptions. so, i guess i’m stickin’ around to, 10% of the time, clarify those issues, and the other 90% to either add insight, snarky comments, humor, opinions, and/or whatever BS comes out of my head at the moment…but definitely the snarky. i promise to all of you that you can rely of me to be snarky.
okay, i must go to sleep, because Josh Groban just started playing on my stereo, and i need to pay attention to that, and i need to sleep, because my best friend’s birthday continues tomorrow with a cookout @ 1 PM.
n’nite!
(btw, MY 28′th birthday is April 9, so i want a gazillion e-cards, messages, candygrams…)
Sorry to say, but you are making a god of your own creation, and worshipping him. You are breaking commandment 1 and 2. He is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible sent His son Jesus Christ to be crucified for your sin, and to make you a new creation. His only requirement? that by faith (which He gives) you would believe what He says (about you, about your chosen sin) and about His Son, Jesus.
I am sorry, but you and many others are deceived, and choose to call on their false gods in order to justify whatever it is they want to do.
So I am very sad for you, but I pray you will find Christ in Spirit and in TRUTH.
So Evan writes a very personal and detailed confession, and the extent of your response is something that could have lifted from a tract, with the name Evan pasted at the top?
I feel like you response is everything that’s wrong with the Christian respnse to the gay community.
We don’t listen, we just regurgitate. We don’t talk to them, we talk at them, content with the fact that we just quoted scripture.
Jesus talked to people. Oh, that we could be more like him.
Evan - thanks for sharing part of your story. I can never pretend to walk in the footsteps of someone like you. I would come to barbecues, go to dinner, swim parties, and what I’m trying to say is overall not treat you like a leper. You are intelligent, have a sense of humor, and a musician to boot, and so am I except the intelligent part - that I pretend!
I like having you here (some like that better than me being here) and I would encourage you to entertain the idea that the purpose for your presence is both to give and receive. I am what I guess could be called a fundamentalist with a herat who doesn’t claim a complete panoramic understanding of how it all works but I retain some areas of which are uncompromising and defendable.
I do not engage you as a “scalp” but as a person made in the image of God. I cannot with certainty ascertain your spiritual standing because deception lives in some form in all of us. What I am saying is that it is possible to be saved and be wrong or portray wrong views on Biblical issues. I have never bee a “gay basher” and that and racism grieves me teeribly.
I have learned this over the years, that only the Holy Spirit can change a person’s heart and with that in mind I never have to get frustrated although I sometimes still do. We should expect nothing short of honesty from you and will continue to accept you as a ligitimate perspective and more importantly as a ligitimate person.
Your fundamentalist friend - Rick
Come to Florida sometime - swimming, Disney, and Harley Davidson riding!!
of course it is only “others” who make gods in their own image so they can “justify” what they do.
we like to “think” we let the scripture speak concerning “sin” but most often we define “sin” by our own terms. we view these issues through the lens of our cultural and religious experience.
so let’s see……….is adultery sin? is sex with more than one woman, who is not your wife a sin? is the ten commandments the absolute law of god? is it an unalterable, unchangeable law?
most people on this blog will answer yes.
then we have a problem. because we have a bible that endorses polygamy and concubines. we have a bible that endorses incest. (cain and abel had to have sex with someone) so what does the bible really mean when it talks about not committing adultery?
my point in the above exercise to suggest that sexuality is not a neat tidy issue. far too often our view on sexuality is culturally driven and many times reflects a puritanical view.
the issue of porn gets brought up all the time. bad. bad. bad. yet, we watch ‘porn lite” all the time on TV. in fact…………..some suggest that scantily clad women are more seductive than totally naked women. the scantily clad allows for allusion…………not much allusion when someone is totally naked.
quite frankly many evangelicals are doubleminded about sexuality. pastors get up and pontificate about premarital sex……….all the while forgetting their own escapades. they lie and distort. they try and scare kids out of sex. ( kinda like telling kids that drinking and smoking dope is not fun or enjoyable……liar liar pants on fire
yes, the bible has something to say about sexuality. yes, it absolutely has something to say about sexuality. but, there is a big difference between this and what many pastors, posing as ex experts, spout from the pulpit.
Technically I suppose PB is right… yet, when PB slanders others he also breaks a few commandments… or when he lies about people or bears false witness like calling people Universalist when they are not he breaks commandments.
The Truth is we are all sinners and that is our “natural” identity. Sin is wrong and leads to death. Sin is false worship of ourselves, our natural identities and death.
God has better things for you, me and everyone if we listen.
As I stated before, God has His priorities. For me I struggle with porn and anger and a few (many) other things… yet, my identity is not the “masturbator” or the “angry man”….
For many their priority would be to get one to stop in one area… yet, at least for me sexual things have been a real struggle… yet God chose to pick working on my anger. Which in that I am in no way the person I once was.
Short story is God revealed the depth of my anger the day I almost killed another person over a loading zone when I was a delivery driver. I almost took a metal bar out of the truck to “teach that guy a lesson”. In a flash… one second of sanity, God showed me a vision of me calling my wife to tell her I needed to be bailed out becuase I might have killed someone… that was just the beginning.
I laps in to anger at times… but I do not live in anger… in fact God replaced it with joy, peace and genuine love… which has opened the door to understand how certain views I have about sex are tainted by my perverted views of love. Learning true love is helping me overcome my other sins…
Now, what I learned is that the focus of the Christian life is not “stopping sinning”… but Jesus Christ and following His lead. If one focuses on sin, the natural tendency is to steer where you are looking… so if we focus on sin we will head right to it and… sin…
By, guilt is replaced by conviction… which leads us to Christ… that is the purpose of guilt… other wise guilt that leads to self condemnation is the devils playground.
I hope you do not find this offensive, but in sharing my story you might understand how this may overlap into you story… I know I can’t change you… and I also know that in order for me to truly overcome sin, I cannot put on some false air of being better or whatever than you or anyone else. In fact I strive only to be real and authentic… warts and all yet knowing that one day God will take those warts away. These things are in God’s hands and only He can change us.
Jesus Christ- the same yesterday, today and forever. Leviticus 18 is as valid as Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.
And God still sees lying lips as an abomination, so when I lie, I need to admit I have lied and I need to repent.
There is so much that I could address here.
1. Jesus came and fulfilled the law and in that abolished it… so Leviticus is not as valid as the NT, unless you deny the Cross.
2. You seem to pick and choose what you want… I bet you wear mixed materials in your clothes and have yet to take a lamb to sacrifice.. but hey that is keep all of Leviticus… which you have stated is as valid now as when it was written… so do you still do the sacrifices?
3. As far as lying, I see that you really just do not read and understand what you read clearly. So that leads you down roads of false accusations against brothers in Christ… and leads you to bear false witness against people. Mostly I see as a bit two faced as you appear friendly and nice, then stab people in the back…
I prefer to be a friend who loves others even in their sin. Sort of like what God did when He sent His Son to die for us when we were still enemies.
You mix Grace and the Law and nullify both… pick one or the other… Maybe a refresher on Galatians is for you… it is a great book and an easy read… Paul flat out states not to mix law and grace.
mostly I pray you find the Grace that comes from Christ and lose the theological misunderstanding of Grace you are in bondage to.
1. Jesus came and fulfilled the law and in that abolished it… so Leviticus is not as valid as the NT, unless you deny the Cross.
Its called hermeneutics Iggy- yes the law was abolished, except what was reestablished in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, reestablish the Leviticus 18 law concerning homosexuality being an abomination ( so is lying by the way)
2. You seem to pick and choose what you want… I bet you wear mixed materials in your clothes and have yet to take a lamb to sacrifice.. but hey that is keep all of Leviticus… which you have stated is as valid now as when it was written… so do you still do the sacrifices?
Answered in #1
3. As far as lying, I see that you really just do not read and understand what you read clearly. So that leads you down roads of false accusations against brothers in Christ… and leads you to bear false witness against people.
I don’t falsely accuse, I read what people write. Words mean things. Retractions are hollow when they are a play on what a word means~like universalism.
Mostly I see as a bit two faced as you appear friendly and nice, then stab people in the back…
Well, that is a false accusation. Who have I stabbed in the back?
I prefer to be a friend who loves others even in their sin. Sort of like what God did when He sent His Son to die for us when we were still enemies.
Jesus’ love calls for repentance. Jesus forgave the prostitute, but told her to go her way and sin no more. I guess I prefer real grace to the cheap imitation grace you are peddling- Your grace simply makes me feel good as I head to hell, because I have not faced my sin and truly received the Grace. Let us get this clear, real grace transforms, cheap grace allows us to rewrite the Bible how we want and not allow the mighty Spirit of God to transform us.
I truly do pity the vineyard if this is the style of grace they promote.
I truly do pray that Evan and others like him allow God’s grace to transform them.
Evan whats ur story bud? You remind me of me, but obviously ur a better writer ;-)..I went to church a superrrr fundamental church from 15 ish to 21 (42 now)freaked me out to be honest..
I guess I prefer real grace to the cheap imitation grace you are peddling-
Iggy, he prefers the kind of grace that makes people not want to talk to him anymore. which i’m sure is exactly the way Jesus would have played it…
I truly do pray that Evan and others like him allow God’s grace to transform them.
es mui arrogant.
jesus hung out with them kind of folks.
seemed to prefer us…
after a long day of yelling at Pharisees for being so obnoxious, he liked to kick back with the fun people.
Evan whats ur story bud? You remind me of me, but obviously ur a better writer ;-)..I went to church a superrrr fundamental church from 15 ish to 21 (42 now)freaked me out to be honest..
hehe, i’m a long story with lots of twists, turns, ’s’ curves…
i dunno. i was raised in the Christian tradition, but the fundamentalism kind of happened to us after we left a church that was splitting in half over, surprise, gays. (gays! playing the organ and directing the choir! oh noooooooo!)
sadly, at the time i was on the wrong side of the issue, due to the fact that i so feared who i already knew i was, so i was all too happy to join up with those yelling “Crucify him!”
ended up at a church recommended to us by “friends” (the ones leading the effort to fire the music minister…funny how those “friends” aren’t in any of our lives now. i have honestly never met people more two-faced than these).
that’s where the fundamentalism started to seep in, with me for a while (i was even on staff there), but at some point my brain started to kick in and i started dealing with myself as well.
that’s just a small piece of my story, but it’s what started the trajectory of finding true spirituality, rather than parroting what i’d been taught.
Over at imonk there is a discussion about homosexuals and the gospel. I began thinking about some of the implications of some of the theologies. If we say that when a homosexual gets saved, that his homosexual tendencies can be eradicated, isn’t that a form of sinless perfectionism?
And if God can remove that sin from a life, why can’t He remove them all?
If we say that when a homosexual gets saved, that his homosexual tendencies can be eradicated, isn’t that a form of sinless perfectionism?
And if God can remove that sin from a life, why can’t He remove them all?
That has indeed made me think, thanks Rick. (Hmm I could make a rhyme out of it…)
Coming from a slightly fundamentalist past I have been thinking about these issues too. It’s getting more and more to a point where so many people say so many things and to believe all would mean nothing was permissible. Perhaps the best is to simply trust God to change me. No matter what behaviour I think is right, may be wrong!
This is my view… was sin dealt with on the Cross or not? Was it all sin? And as Hebrews states, 9: 24-28
24. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28. so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Our sins are dealt with… all we must understand is we are reconciled unto God and sin no longer separates us. The only thing that separates us is that we deny Christ thus forfeit out forgiveness and salvation.
Another passage that will make this more clear is Romans 5.
There are so many things that come clear once you understand sin was dealt with on the Cross and we stand forgiven. Romans 5 and Romans 9 become treasure troves of Grace when one understands forgiveness is total.
Many cannot get over the hump that we can be condemn though forgiven but that is where our free will comes into play. Salvation is free to all men, but only the humble receive grace for God resists the proud. If one is prideful they forfeit salvation, for pride blinds us from Grace.
There is so much bad theology that mixes Law and Grace… for example Pastorboys theology that does just this when he stated:” Its called hermeneutics Iggy- yes the law was abolished, except what was reestablished in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, reestablish the Leviticus 18 law concerning homosexuality being an abomination ( so is lying by the way)”
You see Romans one is not about condemning homosexuals… but it must be read as Paul completes the though in Romans 2…
“1. You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4. Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? 5. But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”
So yes hermeneutics is really important… if you miss Paul is stating all are sinners, and do not understand in all that is stated in Chapter one also pertains to oneself, then you missed the point of chapter one completely.
As far as 1 Cor 6, PB claims that Leviticus 18 was reinstated, which is a crock, for no where once in Leviticus does it state, “Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything.” which is Grace and Love being the driving force now, not ones own obedience which is demanded under the Law… again PB proved my point that he mixes the Law and Grace and nullifies both of their glory.
I could go one, but the idea of forgiveness if understood pulls one deeper into Grace and Mercy and understanding how much God loves us.
I coach a local high school girls basketball team. One of the girls on the team has been struggling with her mom. Mom has been in and out of the hospital for suicidal tendencies and attempts. It’s been a long struggle for the family, friends, and the school. Not many people know about the suicide attempts but rumors fester and any unfilled area of information gets filled in with innuendo and then Voila…FACT!
Well yesterday I ran into “mom” at Wal-mart. I hadn’t seen her in months. The first moments were uncomfortable.
Me: “Hey”
Mom: “Chris…The kids are in N.C. on Spring Break”
Me: “Yeah I figured they would be” “How are you?”
Mom: “Good”
Me: “How’s the book coming” she’s an author.
Mom: “Finishing it up! I’m holing up this week to finish”
Me: “Great”
Mom: “Yeah I got hurry! See ya”
That was the extent of our whole conversation. The only piece of information that is important is that she was dressed like a guy. Before anyone assumes I made a wrong assessment (about her dress) it was very obvious that she was going for that look.
Later I relayed the story to a friend and finished with “I was really sad for her”. My friend obviously inferred why I was sad and said “Yeah I can’t imagine what it would be like to be like that”.
But my sadness was more about the fact that, in our town at least, she is probably very isolated and lonely. My sadness was about not knowing how to minister to her needs. (not my idea of her needs but her actual needs).
So I’m still wrestling with this. These are not easy situations to just callously dismiss with a declaration of sinner.
Redemption or forgiveness is offerred at the cross, it only is applied by faith. For be grace are you save through faith. Even the unpardoable sin was not paid for at Calvary, and Paul says that before our faith in Christ we were dead in sins, not forgiven.
That theology about everyone being forgiven is not New Testament. God will even judge sin in the house of God through losing rewards. When the death angel came through Egypt God wasn’t the one to put the blood on the doorposts so that all the Jews were already safe and forgiven, they had to do it personally.
It is true there is no law for the believer. Commandments from a father, yes, but no law from a judge.
I don’t falsely accuse, I read what people write. Words mean things. Retractions are hollow when they are a play on what a word means~like universalism.
When I first got to the church I’m working at currently there was a man there who constantly used that phrase. Only problem was he would use it to defend his feifdom, agenda, or way of thought. He was about as narrow as tack. He really was emotionless.
It’s a cute phrase “Words have meanings” but it’s not true.
Words have nuance!
Words have inflection!
Words meanings change with pitch or tone!
Words have different interpretations!
Words mean different things in different situations!
Words mean different things based on individual experience!
Don’t believe me! Call your significant other on the phone and say “I love you” but say it flat, monotone, or even angry. See how they perceive your words.
Or go south of Ohio and ask for a “Pop”! You might get punched.
So PB your “love” sounds a lot like a clanging cymbal. Not because I say so but “words have meanings” and currently I perceive your words to be hateful.
PB - nobody thought that Evan was presenting a systematic theology, he was sharing his personal experience. I have found to listen to someone is quite beneficial because I get a perspective about which I was formerly unaware. Talking about homosexuals and homosexuality are important issues that have a Biblical core but with some nuances as it comes to reaching them and how we view them in the context of redemption.
A sinner comes to Christ in our church and he is a drunk. In the next two months he slips five or six times and we call that a struggle. But when a gay person comes to Christ and he slips even once we assume he isn’t saved. These are important issues with non-simplistic answers. We all agree what the Bible teaches about that lifestyle, however we must be ready to be vunerable and uncomfortable in our dealings with sinners from all “camps”. I continue to evolve through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in my own life.
Even the unpardoable sin was not paid for at Calvary and Paul says that before our faith in Christ we were dead in sins, not forgiven.
If you look close at the passage about the unpardonable sin, you will see it is the rejection of who Jesus is… that is the only “sin” we are not “frogiven” as it is we who reject Jesus as JEsus stated.
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Again look at what Jesus states…
Matthew 12: 30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
How are we saved? When we are born of the Spirit…. Being born again… if we reject Jesus, then we reject the Spirit to live in us, and without the Spirit of Life… for
2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
And,
Galatians 5:16
[ Life by the Spirit ] So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
If we “live by the Spirit†and we reject Jesus then we do not have the Spirit and do not have life so then die… rejecting our forgiveness.
Now, Paul states all men were dead in their sins as the wage sin is death, yet, Peter states that we “receive†forgiveness… forgiveness is already there but we need receive it. That is why I quoted Hebrews that stated Jesus being the High Priest after offering Himself “once for all†sat down…
Here is the verse again…
Hebrews 10: 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16″This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b] 17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Paul also stated we are reconciled at the Cross…
2 Cor 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The reason we are not to regard anyone from a worldy point of view is because they are forgiven and need to know that! We are given the message of reconciliation. For God reconciled us to Himself in Christ and does not count our sins against us anymore… from the time of the Cross we are now judged by the Words of Jesus who proclaim He was Messiah and God and by our words of belief, we are saved by His works.
Paul taught as I am saying, Peter did, John and all agreed with Jesus who also taught what I am stating.
What if a mother continues to use cocaine during her pregnancy and when the baby is born the little boy is addicted to cocaine. As hard as the doctors try, this addiction in the child continues into his teens. Is this addiction a choice? And if this teen becomes a Christian will we require his complete deliverance from cocaine before we accept his conversion? As you can see this post and others have dangerously opened my serotonin dam.
There are so many things that come clear once you understand sin was dealt with on the Cross and we stand forgiven. Romans 5 and Romans 9 become treasure troves of Grace when one understands forgiveness is total.
Okay Ig, WHO IS FORGIVEN?
We all?
Who is we? Humans? All people? Or is there a transaction that takes place?
Salvation is up to God. He has made it very clear in his word how one gets saved.
In the cocaine baby illustration, My God has enough grace to know his heart, and knows at what level that individual can come to Him and respond to His call. By his grace, He can accept that boy’s simple faith.
He can also completely eradicate that addiction from that boy’s life if He so chooses. He has that power.
This argument is one not of law and grace, it is one of God’s power. Does God have the power to free us from sin? YES, I believe that He does. He has done it for me. It is also a question of whether or not a person desires to throw himself or herself on God’s mercy in repentance, dying to ones self and sin and completely humbling ones self as they place their trust in Christ.
Grace is transformational. God loves us just where we are, but loves us way too much to let us stay there.
someone said “So PB your “love†sounds a lot like a clanging cymbal. Not because I say so but “words have meanings†and currently I perceive your words to be hateful.”
i would throw this piece of information into the conversation:
when Christians abandon their hate-mongering, the next step is people talking about how they should “love homosexuals,” etc., which is a good thing.
but at times the sentiments take on the air of “the same way we care for the sick, feed the hungry, etc…”
and that’s a problem. most gay people don’t need a “charity approach,” and while it doesn’t garner the disdain that the fundamentalists’ approach does, it’s not necessarily helpful either.
i would suggest that the goal should just be about spreading God’s message, and leaving the rest up to God.
but at times the sentiments take on the air of “the same way we care for the sick, feed the hungry, etc…â€
To quote Shane Claiborne:
“The Gospel is good news for the sick people and is disturbing for those who think they’ve got it all together. Some of us have been told our whole lives that we are wretched, but the Gospel reminds us we are beautiful. Others of us have been told our whole lives that we are beautiful, but the Gospel also reminds us that we are wretched. The church is a place where we can stand up and say we are wretched, and everyone will nod and agree and remind us that we are also beautiful.”
I have explained, yes all, every single person was forgiven at something called The Cross.
Romans 5: 8. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Notice that it was “while we were still sinners” that “Christ died for us.”? What was the purpose of His death?
9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Now notice in verse 9 Paul uses a word? It is “Since”.
Since we have now been justified… Meaning that God justified all at the Cross. He paid for it all on the Cross and there is no more debt. Yet, we still need to receive it. In that we receive it and are in Christ, how much MORE will we be saved from God’s wrath. I say Glory!
Romans 5:10. For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Again notice that Paul states, “For if when were were God’s enemies”? So, even before we knew God… we were already reconciled… when? Paul states it right here… “we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son.” Do you not believe in the Cross and all that was done… Then you should believe that we were reconciled to God by the Cross and death of Jesus… as Paul states. But there is more!
11. Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
The issue is not that some are forgiven, but that they have not received that reconciliation… they stand there already reconciled (forgiven) yet how much more will they receive after they accept that reconciliation is theirs! But there is more!
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
As sin is the door to death, Jesus is the door to Life. The law was given to add to the Jews trespass… so they could see more clearly their own sin. Gentiles were not held to the extra yoke or burden of the Law, yet Gentiles still died becuase of sin as those who were before the Law of Moses.
Yet, Paul states, “But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.”
Which leads us to;
15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Note the contrast with Adam and Jesus… through the one man death came, but how much more though Jesus Life came?
If you read it closely enough you will see that we do not even have obedience, and we must walk in the obedience of Christ… we walk in HIS OBEDEINCE and not our own. We trust in His obedience and works and trust that by Grace through Faith we are saved.
If you cannot see how much Jesus did BEFORE you even met him then you are denying the finished works of the Cross… Jesus stated “It is finished.” because He fulfilled the Law and as Paul states. “14. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15. by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16. and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:14-16)
We must understand the the Law was fulfilled and abolished so that there is no longer the “us and them” of the “Jew and Gentile”… Jesus took the Law away so that we are now “one man” or the New man… or “New Creation”.
To state the law is still active (other than for its sole purpose to reveal our sin), is to state that Jesus never finished His work on the Cross. It is to deny that there is no longer a separation between Jew and Gentile and that there is no New Creation…
i’ve been out of the closet for ten years. i’m quite content with who i am. i love God, i follow Christ, i am who i am, and all that that entails. one small, but inextricable, part is my sexuality. whatever. so i’m looking for my knight in shining armour, rather than a princess.
To accept that you truly love God and are a “Christ-follower” would require me to look outside of Scripture.
There is no picture in Scripture of a Christ-follower or a person who fears and loves God who willfully and gleefully continues in sin.
Redefining sin doesn’t change God’s mind about what sin is.
A person who is born again does not willfully keep on continuing in sin. That is a clear concept of scripture, especially in I John.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:28 am
this one hears a hammer party going on in his head.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:45 am
March 29th, 2008 at 11:50 am
oh no you di’int.
find Bangles “Eternal Flame” so that i may continue my solo interpretive dance party, yet share it far and wide.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am
March 29th, 2008 at 11:54 am
yayayayayayayayay!
i actually do a cover version of this song…
and sometimes i do it in karaoke, because i am THAT cool.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
very good post.
i am a recovering homophobe and gay hater.
to even “suggest” some gay “might” be a christian is scandalous. but a murdering, adulterer, with multiple wives is a “man after god’s own heart.”
for the most part the evangelical movement has no voice on the gay issue. they speak out of hatred and phobia. and then we have ted haggard (not to point him out because there are probably hundreds of such men in the pulpit)
i was researching a pastor i once knew and respected very much.(arrested for sexual crimes, died before his trial) i came across this site:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
i support brian mcclaren’s suggestion, or was is tony campolo, that we take a 5 year sabbatical from our evangelical pronouncements about homosexuality. time to really think about this issue and how we have dealt with it in the past and how we intend to deal with it in the future.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Brutus - I believe you speak of Bob Gray. I also was an independent baptist in the Jack Hyles mold. Of course a person can be a Christian and be a homosexual. Can a person be addicted to pornography and be a Christian? The issue is that people like MacLaren and Campolo question the sinfulness of it.
That is a departure. The church has been smug and self righteous and even uncaring, that must change. This is a sad story of a gay murder. You don’t see students murdering other students because they bring pornography to school.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23847511
March 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
yes bob gray. his first victim was in 1949. how does a man go through 50 years of ministry and get by with such evil? people knew, yet said nothing. i think of all the times i heard him preach over the years………..all the while he was molesting children and women.
i am not sure i agree that camplo and mcclaren don’t believe in the sinfulness of such things. i think they point to our obsession with sexual matters (and maybe a misplaced obsession) at the expense of other issues.
i see it this way……….evangelical preacher gets up in the pulpit and rails against homosexuality. probably not a homosexual in the crowd. kinda like preaching on faithful church attendance to those who are faithfully attending church.
the catholics have it right. the deadly sins………greed lust envy gluttony sloth pride wrath……………now there is some sins that the average preacher could spend some time on.
March 29th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
except that there are gay people in the crowd. there are gay people in even the most hateful of churches…granted, these are gay people who can’t bear to admit their true desires even to themselves alone in a dark room…so what happens is that these gay people are barraged with a constant diatribe about how who they are and feelings they cannot control are so evil in God’s eyes that they sink further and further into self-hatred. the outer manifestation of this is usually intense homophobia. these are the men and women who protest the loudest, who rail the loudest against that which they cannot kill off inside themselves. out of these come ones who occasionally snap and string Matthew Shepard up to die slowly in the middle of nowhere because he made a pass at them, or murder a classmate because he asked them to be his valentine. also out of these come the ones who finally reach a breaking point of another kind, come to terms with themselves, leave the church completely, but end up harboring a lifelong resentment towards God, Christians, religious people in general…
March 29th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
(((i support Brian Mcclaren’s suggestion, or was is Tony Campolo, that we take a 5 year sabbatical from our evangelical pronouncements about homosexuality. time to really think about this issue and how we have dealt with it in the past and how we intend to deal with it in the future.)))
How sweettttt..I lived in a bi lifestyle for 10 years, my flat mate and boss (i’m is carer) is gay …Time to wake up bud as my friend says theres no nice way to tell him is avenue to love is sinful, how ever you spin it..Bottom line its a sin or its not, like Rob (my friend) says people can be as nice as they want their still stabbing him with a smile
March 29th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
can someone hire a translator?
March 29th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
what for me? I have had a drink
March 29th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
andy,
and that’s the reson for the time out. let’s look at the issue. let’s look at the texts. let’s look at the context. let’s look at the historical background.
then……..
whatever conclusion we come to…………preach the truth, in love. stop being gay-haters and gay-bashers.
many people are anti-homosexual because it is foreign to their thinking. a straight guy doesn’t understand it at all……….. if we are going to codemn millions of people to hell the nwe at leat owe it to them to know why we are doing to. our gay-hating father’s training is not enough.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
okay, i think i get what you’re saying.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
haha, i’m doing to do that later, too!
and then i’m going to have another one.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
er. *going to do…
March 29th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Here is a product of my former gay hating ways.
http://www.zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080329/OBITUARIES/803290339/1023
i ran this gay man right out of church. met him at the door and told him his type wasn’t welcome in our church. that was nineteen years ago.
i wonder what kind of friend i could have been had i not been raised to hate homosexuals. had i not been indoctrinated by by religion that the only people more despised than the devil were gays. had i not taught our church to hate.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Evan i’m on red wine hello from England!!
Brutus ive talked to my friend about this site, also the change in attitude towards the gay issue,and he replied seems like your all trying to make yourself feel better,and then he follows it with am i still a sinner
Like he said there is no way to tell him “his being” is sinful however lovingly you say it..
March 29th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
andy,
all i can say is………you are wrong about “me.”
can’t vouch for the rest of the saints and sinners.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
ps i meant : he said theres no NICE way of saying it..
No not you Brutus i just meant in general how can you say to someone your avenue towards love is wrong lovingly?
I confess i’m haunted by the idea that saying homosexuality is sinful will be compared in the future as saying slavery was ok
March 29th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
‘allo! red wine is a beast. i was about to say it’s always 6 somewhere, but i guess it’s a little after 10 there.
i do love England…
yeah, but not b/c he’s gay.
me too, and it’s not b/c i’m gay either.
you’re probably right. the comparison is already being made.
i’ve said it on here before, but i’ll repeat it. when science and observable reality (1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things…) conflict with an interpretation of scripture, A. it’s not an attack on religion, and B. it’s time to rethink the interpretation that scripture, and C. my dog is barking at Bjork, and i don’t know why.
(Bjork likely barked at her in a past life…)
March 29th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
i’ve said it on here before, but i’ll repeat it. when science and observable reality (1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things…) conflict with an interpretation of scripture, A. it’s not an attack on religion, and B. it’s time to rethink the interpretation that scripture, and C. my dog is barking at Bjork, and i don’t know why.
(Bjork likely barked at her in a past life…)
Now come on ‘fess up uve started drinking now
March 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
regretfully, no.
i’m just a little bit strange.
wait, i’m selling myself short.
i’m not normal at all.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Apples and oranges, Andy…
I would recommend Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis by William Webb, who’s done an in-depth hermeneutical study on the issues of slavery, the role of women in the church and homosexuality. Similarly, other hermeneutics see the two issues VERY differently, as the practice (not orientation) of homosexual sex is treated consistently as a cross-cultural prohibition - the same as lying, stealing, murder, etc.
The problem arises when Christians treat one sin (homosexual practice) MUCH differently than other sins (lying, cheating, stealing, gossip, heterosexual promiscuity, etc.) The solution is not to declare one sin (as defined by God) no longer a sin, over-correcting the error. Rather, it requires recalibrating the way we treat ALL sin, differentiating between a specific temptation and the acting out upon that temptation.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
there’s a logical problem with that reasoning, and it’s this: i’ll try to make this as concise as i can…
take all other things an orthodox would put in the category of “sexual sin.”
temptation to heterosexual lust - oversexualizing a person, etc…baseline is the inherent sexuality which brings about that lust.
temptation to heterosexual adultery - cheating on your spouse with someone else…baseline is the inherent sexuality which would cause someone to be tempted in that way.
temptation to heterosexual promiscuity - screwing around…baseline is the inherent sexuality that would make a person want to screw around.
homosexuality - baseline is…homosexuality. gay people don’t have the inherent heterosexual feelings, and though there is a spectrum of sexuality, the great majority have NEVER had heterosexual feelings. it’s not a “temptation” per se. it’s not like the entire population has the same baseline, yet a percentage just also happens to be “tempted” toward those of the same sex. to call it so is to misstate things completely. it merely is what it is, and any “ex-gay” who tells you otherwise is just lying to themselves (again).
March 29th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
There is, of course, a difference between “being” and “doing.” Being born with a desire does not make it biblically acceptable - or “not a sin” to engage in the behavior. Therefore the whole argument of homosexual origin is moot.
Re: “1500 species observed so far where homosexuality is part of the normal order of things” - I’d have to say… “So?” Many female insects kill the male after his “job” is done, many species mate with different partners every season, others still the male abandons the female after he’s had his go at her and she’s reproduced for him - should we then reconsider what the Bible might say about murder, promiscuity, and the role of a father?
March 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Don’t get me wrong though… I’m right there with ya when it comes to the church treating homosexuality as if it were worse than other sins. I’d even go so far as joining the moratorium on our obsession. What Dan Kimball wrote on the subject really resonated with me. I’ll see if I can find it, but he basically came to the conclusion that it was sin, but also argued that the church has not dealt very well with it… didn’t the ODM’s take him to task for that?
March 29th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
no, b/c the insect example is pretty much just that. the insect example.
the homosexuality thing goes pretty much trans-phyla, trans-genus, trans-species. it’s just one of those things that seems to be.
and seriously, when a desire exists before one even knows what to CALL that desire, how does one equate it with other earthly “temptations.”
alcoholics have to be exposed to alcohol before becoming alcoholics.
it’s completely different from every other “sin.”
for one thing, most sins have victims involved.
okay, anyway, speaking of “temptations,” i’m now tempted toward retail therapy and then going out to dinner and drinks and dancing.
so.
if my next comments are snarky, look at the time-stamp.
*grin*
March 29th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Point is - if we’re going to take our cues from nature we cannot pick and choose. The fact that it “seems to be” has no bearing on the biblical argument.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Enjoy.
Be careful.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
I’m not talking temptation, since I do not believe temptation to be a sin.
As for a desire exist[ing] before one even knows what to CALL that desire - any parents can speak of the sinful pull that a two-year old harbors long before the child knows that there is even a thing called “right” and a thing called “wrong.”
Desire does make it right.
Neil
PS - still looking for that Kimball quote
March 29th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Here is Ken trashing Dan for doing some research…
March 29th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
The entire question centers on do those feelings come from God or are they an effect caused by the inherrant sin within us. Some sins come forth as more prominent while others remain dormant. Just the fact they exist does not equate divine approval as is sometimes insinuated by the man who is sexually drawn to 2 yr. olds.
I believe we are all born with the full compliment of sins within the framework of the sin nature. Although God desires restraint even in a secular society, we as believers must remain humble, loving, and fully engaged in the ministry of reconciliation. It is self serving to isolate some sins and treat them as special whipping boys which increases our self righteousness while at the same time seems ineffective at reaching the captives.
Divine love sacrifices detachment and acts on the behalf of that which it loves, even if it means an uncomfortable indentification with the ones who need redemption. That would be, of course, the Incarnation which should be our example.
March 29th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
((Don’t get me wrong though… I’m right there with ya when it comes to the church treating homosexuality as if it were worse than other sins. ))
I do wonder how biblical “all sin are the same” is? Does a sin that involves another not bring more judgement?
March 29th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Sin is a deep and sometimes complex issue that is taken much too lightly sometimes, after all, look what it took to gain forgiveness - which is also taken much too lightly as well.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
All I have to say is this….all sin is sin, and we are born with a sin nature. There is no worse sin in God’s eyes, all sin is offensive to God. And all sinners will have the same ending:
So now is the time to repent (turn from) your sin by confessing (agreeing with God it is sin) and forsaking (leaving it behind) and place your full trust in Christ alone for salvation.
And by the way, we are all born with a sin nature, so you can say that a man’s proclivity towards sex with males is something you are born with. We do not need to be taught how to sin. Problem is, most homosexuals (and heterosexuals) will not admit that their sin is sin in God’s eyes! They say that the Bible is not up to date with current culture, or that sin may have been sin when the Bible was written, but Paul’s comments on women and homosexuals are not valid for today.
Poppycock.
Jesus Christ- the same yesterday, today and forever. Leviticus 18 is as valid as Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.
And God still sees lying lips as an abomination, so when I lie, I need to admit I have lied and I need to repent.
And if you struggle with pornography, you need to do the same. And if you are an homosexual who acts on his homosexual urges, you need to do the same.
We need to quit trying to change the Bible to fit with our lives, and just take the law for what it says. When we find (which we will if we read with an open heart) that we are sinners, and that we are hopelessly lost, we can then call to God by his mercy to save us. And He will.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.â€
March 29th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Inq,
not picking on you… but have you never lied even once?
iggy
March 29th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Ig - everyone has lied, let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar. But now are we washed by the blood of the Lamb. You guys, inq., Ig, Tim, Pastor, and all of us who have been born again are brothers in Jesus Christ. We mat have differences and we might argue, but in eternity we will worship together!!
March 29th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
so you can quote the bible. good.
what is sexually immoral? do we use your definition? is it sexually immoral to have sex with more than one woman?
what does it mean to be cowardly? pacifists?
what does it mean to be faithless?
who are the detestable?
what is murder? killing with our words? killing women and children in a war?
what does it mean to be a sorcerer?
what does it mean to be an idolater?
how many times do i have to do these sins before i get a one way ticket to the lake of fire? once. twice. five times.
so you can quote the bible. good.
but your quoting of scripture tells me nothing.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
oh i left out lying. i didn’t want to make us all guilty and headed for the lake of fire.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Rick,
I do know that… yet when someone just posts a scripture and no comments with it, I just wonder which part they are focusing on… Is it ‘the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars” or just one out of all those… and notice it states “all” liars? Should we take that to be just the “Elect” kind of “all” that just means many?
I have so many questions… scripture can speak to one person on one point and another not even notice that point as they only see the one they see…
I guess it could mean all Elect are liars and God is alone true…
but then we are all headed to that fiery lake?
LOL!
iggy
March 29th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
To me, one cannot be a child of God and any of those things in that list… they can be a child of God and struggle with those sins… but God is true to His faithfulness and will save His children… or sin has not been forgiven…
But since it has, if I cling to being a thief and a lawyer…errr I mean liar, as my identity… or cling to a false God… and so on, then I am not walking as one who trusts God alone.
If one’s main identity is “I am gay” then I would venture they do not know God… but if they know God then they need to know they are a New creation and God can change us in His time and by His priorities… as ours often get in the way.
blessings,
iggy
March 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Job 1:1 - There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job…
Let the chips fall where they may.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
I think you just won the debate.
igs = )
March 30th, 2008 at 6:46 am
i guess i’ll start here.
just got home…. *giggle*. late night. we had a hell of a lot of fun. anyway. um. i would suggest that the only people for whom their “main identity” is that they’re gay is those who either A. just came out (because that’s a moment, to be sure) or B. those who, sadly, have nothing else to define them, but i would suggest that that’s a human issue…i meet people all the time who have absolutely no personality, but (someone’s coming to mind…) they know that people can say “well, he’s a good lay.” (or she…) like i said, someone came to mind (not from personal experience…haha…and i would admit it, too)…but that’s an issue that has nothing to do with sexuality. you can find that anywhere. sadly. but, for most gay people, that’s not even the issue. my best friend and I joke that sometimes we have to be reminded that we’re gay, that there’s something different…because honestly it’s not something that crosses either of our minds that often. it’s just a piece of who we are. sure, i have a masochistic knack for dialoguing in places like this (kidding for those who deserve my kidding), and my best friend, raised Catholic, quite secure spiritually, loves God, loves Christ, but would never set foot (or mouse/keyboard) into a place like this….because he doesn’t have the patience. he just doesn’t. tonight was his birthday, and we celebrated like tomorrow wasn’t coming…i guess the point of this post is to give a picture of real life for a typical gay person…
so. and i’m going to be blunt, because i’m trying to clear up misconceptions.
we went out, three of us, to a gay club (which is very welcoming to straight people! [they all are]). none of us were “trolling for sex.” we went out, had drinks (yeah, we’re healthy drinkers), we danced our tails off, i chit-chatted with a nice guy i met the night before…maybe we’ll go out, maybe we won’t, i dunno yet. then we went back to my best friend’s house and ate ice cream cake and wound down, and i came home.
perfect night.
i’m not attempting to delve into the issues that you all debate regarding homosexuality, i’m just trying to give you a picture of what a night’s really like for three sexy young guys (yeah. look at our myspace/facebook pages. we’re young and cute as hell…not that we’re arrogant. *grin* “still got it…”) haha. yeah, anyway, i’m just trying to give a picture of what it’s really like for us, as well adjusted gay men.
i just want you all to have an accurate picture. i’m quite aware that there are those out there (like that stupid moron Peter LaBarbera) who will sensationalize every fringe event that people who happen to be gay have…they post their “reports” and use them to give people a false impression of what gay people are really like.
so.
Peter lies. his organization lies. CWA lies. (about everything.) FOTF lies. none of them actually know what life is like for a “typical” gay person (as if there’s such a thing as “typical.” like you can pigeonhole the “typical straight experience”…)
so….here’s my point, that maybe i’ve been building up to since i started posting here…(if you remember, i found this joint because of some asinine BS Peter LaBarbera posted on his hate-site about your space here)…look. i’ve been out of the closet for ten years. i’m quite content with who i am. i love God, i follow Christ, i am who i am, and all that that entails. one small, but inextricable, part is my sexuality. whatever. so i’m looking for my knight in shining armour, rather than a princess. it’s one part of me. i’m a classically trained pianist, with a major in classical piano performance, a singer, a composer, a singer/songwriter/pianist (to put it all together…if you want to pick out a specific to define me by, that’s it. screw sexuality.) i’m an avid reader, i’m a political wonk, i’m a dog lover, i’m an amateur wine connoisseur, i’m a talented salesperson (though i have no passion for it whatsoever…but whatever pays the bills for the moment…), i’m a bitch, i’m a lover, i’m a child, i’m a…oh wait, i just started quoting that song…no. one hit wonders need not apply. anyway.
the point is i’m just a person like all of you.
i read words from those of you who seem to feel you must insist on your version of “Biblical Truth” about that part of who i am, and i acknowledge your beliefs, but i do want you to understand that if you harbor any hopes that i, or any other well-adjusted gay person will “see the light,” you’re barking up the wrong tree. perhaps it’s one of those things where personal experience, aided by God, is the true teacher. i have remained around here (and i hope to continue…i like having a “forum”) out of a desire to show a perspective some may not be used to, but there’s no agenda…it’s just me. i happen to be a person who has existed in a lot of different Christian “neighborhoods” and i understand the language of most of them.
i feel that, even among those in the posse who actually seem to genuinely want to show love to all people, there are still misconceptions. so, i guess i’m stickin’ around to, 10% of the time, clarify those issues, and the other 90% to either add insight, snarky comments, humor, opinions, and/or whatever BS comes out of my head at the moment…but definitely the snarky. i promise to all of you that you can rely of me to be snarky.
okay, i must go to sleep, because Josh Groban just started playing on my stereo, and i need to pay attention to that, and i need to sleep, because my best friend’s birthday continues tomorrow with a cookout @ 1 PM.
n’nite!
(btw, MY 28′th birthday is April 9, so i want a gazillion e-cards, messages, candygrams…)
*grin*
take care, kiddos.
March 30th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Evan,
Sorry to say, but you are making a god of your own creation, and worshipping him. You are breaking commandment 1 and 2. He is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible sent His son Jesus Christ to be crucified for your sin, and to make you a new creation. His only requirement? that by faith (which He gives) you would believe what He says (about you, about your chosen sin) and about His Son, Jesus.
I am sorry, but you and many others are deceived, and choose to call on their false gods in order to justify whatever it is they want to do.
So I am very sad for you, but I pray you will find Christ in Spirit and in TRUTH.
God Bless!
March 30th, 2008 at 8:50 am
PB,
So Evan writes a very personal and detailed confession, and the extent of your response is something that could have lifted from a tract, with the name Evan pasted at the top?
I feel like you response is everything that’s wrong with the Christian respnse to the gay community.
We don’t listen, we just regurgitate. We don’t talk to them, we talk at them, content with the fact that we just quoted scripture.
Jesus talked to people. Oh, that we could be more like him.
March 30th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Evan - thanks for sharing part of your story. I can never pretend to walk in the footsteps of someone like you. I would come to barbecues, go to dinner, swim parties, and what I’m trying to say is overall not treat you like a leper. You are intelligent, have a sense of humor, and a musician to boot, and so am I except the intelligent part - that I pretend!
I like having you here (some like that better than me being here) and I would encourage you to entertain the idea that the purpose for your presence is both to give and receive. I am what I guess could be called a fundamentalist with a herat who doesn’t claim a complete panoramic understanding of how it all works but I retain some areas of which are uncompromising and defendable.
I do not engage you as a “scalp” but as a person made in the image of God. I cannot with certainty ascertain your spiritual standing because deception lives in some form in all of us. What I am saying is that it is possible to be saved and be wrong or portray wrong views on Biblical issues. I have never bee a “gay basher” and that and racism grieves me teeribly.
I have learned this over the years, that only the Holy Spirit can change a person’s heart and with that in mind I never have to get frustrated although I sometimes still do. We should expect nothing short of honesty from you and will continue to accept you as a ligitimate perspective and more importantly as a ligitimate person.
Your fundamentalist friend - Rick
Come to Florida sometime - swimming, Disney, and Harley Davidson riding!!
March 30th, 2008 at 10:30 am
“fundamentalist with a herat”
fundamentalist with a heart
March 30th, 2008 at 11:08 am
of course it is only “others” who make gods in their own image so they can “justify” what they do.
we like to “think” we let the scripture speak concerning “sin” but most often we define “sin” by our own terms. we view these issues through the lens of our cultural and religious experience.
so let’s see……….is adultery sin? is sex with more than one woman, who is not your wife a sin? is the ten commandments the absolute law of god? is it an unalterable, unchangeable law?
most people on this blog will answer yes.
then we have a problem. because we have a bible that endorses polygamy and concubines. we have a bible that endorses incest. (cain and abel had to have sex with someone) so what does the bible really mean when it talks about not committing adultery?
my point in the above exercise to suggest that sexuality is not a neat tidy issue. far too often our view on sexuality is culturally driven and many times reflects a puritanical view.
the issue of porn gets brought up all the time. bad. bad. bad. yet, we watch ‘porn lite” all the time on TV. in fact…………..some suggest that scantily clad women are more seductive than totally naked women. the scantily clad allows for allusion…………not much allusion when someone is totally naked.
quite frankly many evangelicals are doubleminded about sexuality. pastors get up and pontificate about premarital sex……….all the while forgetting their own escapades. they lie and distort. they try and scare kids out of sex. ( kinda like telling kids that drinking and smoking dope is not fun or enjoyable……liar liar pants on fire
yes, the bible has something to say about sexuality. yes, it absolutely has something to say about sexuality. but, there is a big difference between this and what many pastors, posing as ex experts, spout from the pulpit.
March 30th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Pastorboy:
I didn’t ask.
And i mean that in the nicest way possible.
March 30th, 2008 at 11:58 am
oh, i have! i have.
fellowship is fellowship, even on the interwebs.
March 30th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Evan,
Technically I suppose PB is right… yet, when PB slanders others he also breaks a few commandments… or when he lies about people or bears false witness like calling people Universalist when they are not he breaks commandments.
The Truth is we are all sinners and that is our “natural” identity. Sin is wrong and leads to death. Sin is false worship of ourselves, our natural identities and death.
God has better things for you, me and everyone if we listen.
As I stated before, God has His priorities. For me I struggle with porn and anger and a few (many) other things… yet, my identity is not the “masturbator” or the “angry man”….
For many their priority would be to get one to stop in one area… yet, at least for me sexual things have been a real struggle… yet God chose to pick working on my anger. Which in that I am in no way the person I once was.
Short story is God revealed the depth of my anger the day I almost killed another person over a loading zone when I was a delivery driver. I almost took a metal bar out of the truck to “teach that guy a lesson”. In a flash… one second of sanity, God showed me a vision of me calling my wife to tell her I needed to be bailed out becuase I might have killed someone… that was just the beginning.
I laps in to anger at times… but I do not live in anger… in fact God replaced it with joy, peace and genuine love… which has opened the door to understand how certain views I have about sex are tainted by my perverted views of love. Learning true love is helping me overcome my other sins…
Now, what I learned is that the focus of the Christian life is not “stopping sinning”… but Jesus Christ and following His lead. If one focuses on sin, the natural tendency is to steer where you are looking… so if we focus on sin we will head right to it and… sin…
By, guilt is replaced by conviction… which leads us to Christ… that is the purpose of guilt… other wise guilt that leads to self condemnation is the devils playground.
I hope you do not find this offensive, but in sharing my story you might understand how this may overlap into you story… I know I can’t change you… and I also know that in order for me to truly overcome sin, I cannot put on some false air of being better or whatever than you or anyone else. In fact I strive only to be real and authentic… warts and all yet knowing that one day God will take those warts away. These things are in God’s hands and only He can change us.
be blessed,
iggy
March 30th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
sharing is sharing.
March 30th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
and gay bashing is gashing even when the preacher does it with a smile
March 30th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
bashing sp genius i am
March 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
PB,
There is so much that I could address here.
1. Jesus came and fulfilled the law and in that abolished it… so Leviticus is not as valid as the NT, unless you deny the Cross.
2. You seem to pick and choose what you want… I bet you wear mixed materials in your clothes and have yet to take a lamb to sacrifice.. but hey that is keep all of Leviticus… which you have stated is as valid now as when it was written… so do you still do the sacrifices?
3. As far as lying, I see that you really just do not read and understand what you read clearly. So that leads you down roads of false accusations against brothers in Christ… and leads you to bear false witness against people. Mostly I see as a bit two faced as you appear friendly and nice, then stab people in the back…
I prefer to be a friend who loves others even in their sin. Sort of like what God did when He sent His Son to die for us when we were still enemies.
You mix Grace and the Law and nullify both… pick one or the other… Maybe a refresher on Galatians is for you… it is a great book and an easy read… Paul flat out states not to mix law and grace.
mostly I pray you find the Grace that comes from Christ and lose the theological misunderstanding of Grace you are in bondage to.
iggy
March 30th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Hey Evan - so if I say to you in a colloquialism “Don’t be gay” I’m actually preaching??:)
March 30th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Jesus’ love calls for repentance. Jesus forgave the prostitute, but told her to go her way and sin no more. I guess I prefer real grace to the cheap imitation grace you are peddling- Your grace simply makes me feel good as I head to hell, because I have not faced my sin and truly received the Grace. Let us get this clear, real grace transforms, cheap grace allows us to rewrite the Bible how we want and not allow the mighty Spirit of God to transform us.
I truly do pity the vineyard if this is the style of grace they promote.
I truly do pray that Evan and others like him allow God’s grace to transform them.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
someone said: I truly do pray that Evan and others like him allow God’s grace to transform them
i thought god is in charge of saving people, changing people?
i like the “and others like him”. you know those kind of people
jesus hung out with them kind of folks.
love the graceless grace posts. oh i know, it is said in love. praise jesus.
March 30th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Pastorboy,
Thanks, I rest my case…
iggy
March 30th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
“both to give and receive”was that a pun, sorry red white two nites running i’m doomed
March 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Evan whats ur story bud? You remind me of me, but obviously ur a better writer ;-)..I went to church a superrrr fundamental church from 15 ish to 21 (42 now)freaked me out to be honest..
March 30th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Iggy, he prefers the kind of grace that makes people not want to talk to him anymore. which i’m sure is exactly the way Jesus would have played it…
es mui arrogant.
seemed to prefer us…
after a long day of yelling at Pharisees for being so obnoxious, he liked to kick back with the fun people.
hehe, i’m a long story with lots of twists, turns, ’s’ curves…
i dunno. i was raised in the Christian tradition, but the fundamentalism kind of happened to us after we left a church that was splitting in half over, surprise, gays. (gays! playing the organ and directing the choir! oh noooooooo!)
sadly, at the time i was on the wrong side of the issue, due to the fact that i so feared who i already knew i was, so i was all too happy to join up with those yelling “Crucify him!”
ended up at a church recommended to us by “friends” (the ones leading the effort to fire the music minister…funny how those “friends” aren’t in any of our lives now. i have honestly never met people more two-faced than these).
that’s where the fundamentalism started to seep in, with me for a while (i was even on staff there), but at some point my brain started to kick in and i started dealing with myself as well.
that’s just a small piece of my story, but it’s what started the trajectory of finding true spirituality, rather than parroting what i’d been taught.
March 30th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Over at imonk there is a discussion about homosexuals and the gospel. I began thinking about some of the implications of some of the theologies. If we say that when a homosexual gets saved, that his homosexual tendencies can be eradicated, isn’t that a form of sinless perfectionism?
And if God can remove that sin from a life, why can’t He remove them all?
March 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
omg…
i meant “es muy arrogant.”
i’m too full of steak and shrimp and cake to think right now…
March 30th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
That has indeed made me think, thanks Rick. (Hmm I could make a rhyme out of it…)
Coming from a slightly fundamentalist past I have been thinking about these issues too. It’s getting more and more to a point where so many people say so many things and to believe all would mean nothing was permissible. Perhaps the best is to simply trust God to change me. No matter what behaviour I think is right, may be wrong!
March 30th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
This is my view… was sin dealt with on the Cross or not? Was it all sin? And as Hebrews states, 9: 24-28
Our sins are dealt with… all we must understand is we are reconciled unto God and sin no longer separates us. The only thing that separates us is that we deny Christ thus forfeit out forgiveness and salvation.
Another passage that will make this more clear is Romans 5.
There are so many things that come clear once you understand sin was dealt with on the Cross and we stand forgiven. Romans 5 and Romans 9 become treasure troves of Grace when one understands forgiveness is total.
Many cannot get over the hump that we can be condemn though forgiven but that is where our free will comes into play. Salvation is free to all men, but only the humble receive grace for God resists the proud. If one is prideful they forfeit salvation, for pride blinds us from Grace.
There is so much bad theology that mixes Law and Grace… for example Pastorboys theology that does just this when he stated:” Its called hermeneutics Iggy- yes the law was abolished, except what was reestablished in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, reestablish the Leviticus 18 law concerning homosexuality being an abomination ( so is lying by the way)”
You see Romans one is not about condemning homosexuals… but it must be read as Paul completes the though in Romans 2…
So yes hermeneutics is really important… if you miss Paul is stating all are sinners, and do not understand in all that is stated in Chapter one also pertains to oneself, then you missed the point of chapter one completely.
As far as 1 Cor 6, PB claims that Leviticus 18 was reinstated, which is a crock, for no where once in Leviticus does it state, “Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything.” which is Grace and Love being the driving force now, not ones own obedience which is demanded under the Law… again PB proved my point that he mixes the Law and Grace and nullifies both of their glory.
I could go one, but the idea of forgiveness if understood pulls one deeper into Grace and Mercy and understanding how much God loves us.
even when we were still enemies.
Be blessed,
iggy
March 31st, 2008 at 6:10 am
This may be a tangent so bear with me please…
I coach a local high school girls basketball team. One of the girls on the team has been struggling with her mom. Mom has been in and out of the hospital for suicidal tendencies and attempts. It’s been a long struggle for the family, friends, and the school. Not many people know about the suicide attempts but rumors fester and any unfilled area of information gets filled in with innuendo and then Voila…FACT!
Well yesterday I ran into “mom” at Wal-mart. I hadn’t seen her in months. The first moments were uncomfortable.
Me: “Hey”
Mom: “Chris…The kids are in N.C. on Spring Break”
Me: “Yeah I figured they would be” “How are you?”
Mom: “Good”
Me: “How’s the book coming” she’s an author.
Mom: “Finishing it up! I’m holing up this week to finish”
Me: “Great”
Mom: “Yeah I got hurry! See ya”
That was the extent of our whole conversation. The only piece of information that is important is that she was dressed like a guy. Before anyone assumes I made a wrong assessment (about her dress) it was very obvious that she was going for that look.
Later I relayed the story to a friend and finished with “I was really sad for her”. My friend obviously inferred why I was sad and said “Yeah I can’t imagine what it would be like to be like that”.
But my sadness was more about the fact that, in our town at least, she is probably very isolated and lonely. My sadness was about not knowing how to minister to her needs. (not my idea of her needs but her actual needs).
So I’m still wrestling with this. These are not easy situations to just callously dismiss with a declaration of sinner.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:12 am
Redemption or forgiveness is offerred at the cross, it only is applied by faith. For be grace are you save through faith. Even the unpardoable sin was not paid for at Calvary, and Paul says that before our faith in Christ we were dead in sins, not forgiven.
That theology about everyone being forgiven is not New Testament. God will even judge sin in the house of God through losing rewards. When the death angel came through Egypt God wasn’t the one to put the blood on the doorposts so that all the Jews were already safe and forgiven, they had to do it personally.
It is true there is no law for the believer. Commandments from a father, yes, but no law from a judge.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:23 am
When I first got to the church I’m working at currently there was a man there who constantly used that phrase. Only problem was he would use it to defend his feifdom, agenda, or way of thought. He was about as narrow as tack. He really was emotionless.
It’s a cute phrase “Words have meanings” but it’s not true.
Words have nuance!
Words have inflection!
Words meanings change with pitch or tone!
Words have different interpretations!
Words mean different things in different situations!
Words mean different things based on individual experience!
Don’t believe me! Call your significant other on the phone and say “I love you” but say it flat, monotone, or even angry. See how they perceive your words.
Or go south of Ohio and ask for a “Pop”! You might get punched.
So PB your “love” sounds a lot like a clanging cymbal. Not because I say so but “words have meanings” and currently I perceive your words to be hateful.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:53 am
PB - nobody thought that Evan was presenting a systematic theology, he was sharing his personal experience. I have found to listen to someone is quite beneficial because I get a perspective about which I was formerly unaware. Talking about homosexuals and homosexuality are important issues that have a Biblical core but with some nuances as it comes to reaching them and how we view them in the context of redemption.
A sinner comes to Christ in our church and he is a drunk. In the next two months he slips five or six times and we call that a struggle. But when a gay person comes to Christ and he slips even once we assume he isn’t saved. These are important issues with non-simplistic answers. We all agree what the Bible teaches about that lifestyle, however we must be ready to be vunerable and uncomfortable in our dealings with sinners from all “camps”. I continue to evolve through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in my own life.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:54 am
because “pop” is a truly strange word, and it’s on the list of “legitimate reasons to punch people.”
others include the made-up word “irregardless” and overuse of the word “moist” for any reason.
March 31st, 2008 at 7:08 am
Rick,
If you look close at the passage about the unpardonable sin, you will see it is the rejection of who Jesus is… that is the only “sin” we are not “frogiven” as it is we who reject Jesus as JEsus stated.
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Again look at what Jesus states…
Matthew 12: 30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
How are we saved? When we are born of the Spirit…. Being born again… if we reject Jesus, then we reject the Spirit to live in us, and without the Spirit of Life… for
2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
And,
Galatians 5:16
[ Life by the Spirit ] So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
If we “live by the Spirit†and we reject Jesus then we do not have the Spirit and do not have life so then die… rejecting our forgiveness.
Now, Paul states all men were dead in their sins as the wage sin is death, yet, Peter states that we “receive†forgiveness… forgiveness is already there but we need receive it. That is why I quoted Hebrews that stated Jesus being the High Priest after offering Himself “once for all†sat down…
Here is the verse again…
Hebrews 10: 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16″This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b] 17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Paul also stated we are reconciled at the Cross…
2 Cor 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The reason we are not to regard anyone from a worldy point of view is because they are forgiven and need to know that! We are given the message of reconciliation. For God reconciled us to Himself in Christ and does not count our sins against us anymore… from the time of the Cross we are now judged by the Words of Jesus who proclaim He was Messiah and God and by our words of belief, we are saved by His works.
Paul taught as I am saying, Peter did, John and all agreed with Jesus who also taught what I am stating.
iggy
March 31st, 2008 at 7:27 am
What if a mother continues to use cocaine during her pregnancy and when the baby is born the little boy is addicted to cocaine. As hard as the doctors try, this addiction in the child continues into his teens. Is this addiction a choice? And if this teen becomes a Christian will we require his complete deliverance from cocaine before we accept his conversion? As you can see this post and others have dangerously opened my serotonin dam.
March 31st, 2008 at 8:26 am
Okay Ig, WHO IS FORGIVEN?
We all?
Who is we? Humans? All people? Or is there a transaction that takes place?
Please explain.
March 31st, 2008 at 8:32 am
Rick,
Salvation is up to God. He has made it very clear in his word how one gets saved.
In the cocaine baby illustration, My God has enough grace to know his heart, and knows at what level that individual can come to Him and respond to His call. By his grace, He can accept that boy’s simple faith.
He can also completely eradicate that addiction from that boy’s life if He so chooses. He has that power.
This argument is one not of law and grace, it is one of God’s power. Does God have the power to free us from sin? YES, I believe that He does. He has done it for me. It is also a question of whether or not a person desires to throw himself or herself on God’s mercy in repentance, dying to ones self and sin and completely humbling ones self as they place their trust in Christ.
Grace is transformational. God loves us just where we are, but loves us way too much to let us stay there.
March 31st, 2008 at 9:56 am
someone said “So PB your “love†sounds a lot like a clanging cymbal. Not because I say so but “words have meanings†and currently I perceive your words to be hateful.”
now there is some words that have meaning.
March 31st, 2008 at 9:57 am
if salvation is up to god, and a sinner is dead, how come you keep asking him to repent, throw him at the feet of god, stop being a homosexual, etc?
seems so contradictory to me. if it is “all” of god then it is god’s problem. but……………i suspect i do have a say in all of this.
March 31st, 2008 at 10:05 am
i would throw this piece of information into the conversation:
when Christians abandon their hate-mongering, the next step is people talking about how they should “love homosexuals,” etc., which is a good thing.
but at times the sentiments take on the air of “the same way we care for the sick, feed the hungry, etc…”
and that’s a problem. most gay people don’t need a “charity approach,” and while it doesn’t garner the disdain that the fundamentalists’ approach does, it’s not necessarily helpful either.
i would suggest that the goal should just be about spreading God’s message, and leaving the rest up to God.
March 31st, 2008 at 10:10 am
evan,
you mean we should leave it up to god to convict, save, sanctify? such a novel idea
but, but, but if we allow for that, not everyone will be just like me? isn’t that the goal…………..to have everyone be and look just like me?
March 31st, 2008 at 10:16 am
yeah…my feeling is just that, if God is really as concerned as some people think He is about sexuality, then He will deal with it.
i’ve always found it funny that i get convicted of all kinds of things, but not who i am…
March 31st, 2008 at 1:22 pm
To quote Shane Claiborne:
March 31st, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Pastorboy,
I have explained, yes all, every single person was forgiven at something called The Cross.
Notice that it was “while we were still sinners” that “Christ died for us.”? What was the purpose of His death?
Now notice in verse 9 Paul uses a word? It is “Since”.
Since we have now been justified… Meaning that God justified all at the Cross. He paid for it all on the Cross and there is no more debt. Yet, we still need to receive it. In that we receive it and are in Christ, how much MORE will we be saved from God’s wrath. I say Glory!
Again notice that Paul states, “For if when were were God’s enemies”? So, even before we knew God… we were already reconciled… when? Paul states it right here… “we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son.” Do you not believe in the Cross and all that was done… Then you should believe that we were reconciled to God by the Cross and death of Jesus… as Paul states. But there is more!
The issue is not that some are forgiven, but that they have not received that reconciliation… they stand there already reconciled (forgiven) yet how much more will they receive after they accept that reconciliation is theirs! But there is more!
As sin is the door to death, Jesus is the door to Life. The law was given to add to the Jews trespass… so they could see more clearly their own sin. Gentiles were not held to the extra yoke or burden of the Law, yet Gentiles still died becuase of sin as those who were before the Law of Moses.
Yet, Paul states, “But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.”
Which leads us to;
Note the contrast with Adam and Jesus… through the one man death came, but how much more though Jesus Life came?
If you read it closely enough you will see that we do not even have obedience, and we must walk in the obedience of Christ… we walk in HIS OBEDEINCE and not our own. We trust in His obedience and works and trust that by Grace through Faith we are saved.
If you cannot see how much Jesus did BEFORE you even met him then you are denying the finished works of the Cross… Jesus stated “It is finished.” because He fulfilled the Law and as Paul states. “14. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15. by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16. and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:14-16)
We must understand the the Law was fulfilled and abolished so that there is no longer the “us and them” of the “Jew and Gentile”… Jesus took the Law away so that we are now “one man” or the New man… or “New Creation”.
To state the law is still active (other than for its sole purpose to reveal our sin), is to state that Jesus never finished His work on the Cross. It is to deny that there is no longer a separation between Jew and Gentile and that there is no New Creation…
But that is just the surface…. = )
iggy
March 31st, 2008 at 7:53 pm
To accept that you truly love God and are a “Christ-follower” would require me to look outside of Scripture.
There is no picture in Scripture of a Christ-follower or a person who fears and loves God who willfully and gleefully continues in sin.
Redefining sin doesn’t change God’s mind about what sin is.
A person who is born again does not willfully keep on continuing in sin. That is a clear concept of scripture, especially in I John.