“I Just Believe That Because The Bible Says It…”
Recently I had a conversation with a friend of mine about how it irks me the way people debate over theological issues. The debate doesn’t bother me. If you can find people who don’t take the debate personal, then you can have a great conversation. Too often people get too fired up when they are discussing things. Just last week I had to call a guy and say, “I’m sorry.†And just to get this out of the way, this post has nothing to do with the person I called. I hate it when people say something like, “Well, I believe this because the Bible says it†or “I believe this way because it is the most Biblical way to view the issue.†The implied message is that if you don’t believe what it is they’re saying that somehow you–the heretic–don’t really love God on the same level that they do. You–the moron–don’t really know how to properly read your Bible.
The Baptists use this argument to prove that their way is right. Most of the time they’re even willing to use this method to denounce other Baptists, which is why you have “free will baptists†and “southern Baptists†and “independent baptists†and “regular baptists†and “American baptists.†Someone once told me that there are 138 different baptist flavors. All 138 of them are holding a line, they are opening their Bible and slamming their finger down on a verse and saying, “See, it says it right here! I am right!â€
My friend seemed to want to have sympathy for me. He was also sympathetic to the view I was decrying. That is one of the things I appreciate about our conversations. We disagree and most of the time he doesn’t walk away questioning my character because we disagree. He said something to the effect of well, that’s the normal argument for that position. I told him I knew that but I get tired of the Bible being used as the final shock and awe weapon to win the battle. I just don’t believe that when God wrote this love letter He intended for us to use it as a battering ram to win arguments. Anybody can claim that what they believe is backed by the Bible. Anybody can say their way is the most Biblical way. They are the one’s defending the truth. Heck, there is an even a Blog where some one has decided to call themselves the “Keepers of Christ’s Truth.†They tell us, Right now, Truth is under attack, and much is at stake.†So I just want to get this strait: The same God who created the entire universe, who has kept the Bible preserved through countless attacks. The same God who reconciled all men to Himself through the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of His Son needs some guy with a BLOG to defend the Truth? That’s retarded. That goes beyond any sane, reasonable train of thought. It bugs me to no end. What does this have to do with my opening?
Recently after reading a certain author I googled his name. I found this quote by a “critic†on one of the pages.
“Michael, I’m what’s called a Biblical Universalist [sic]…I didn’t just decide universalism was a nice concept (emotionalism as it is frequently described. I found it to be the truth of the Bible. My study started with trying to prove that Annihilation (the doctrine that God puts out of existence all those who reject Him)was true and Eternal Torment was false…I was more than a little surprised to discover they were both false.
Please don’t miss what he said because you disagree with what he said. He said that he believes what he believes because it is found in the Bible. He’s convinced he’s right and he has Bible verses to back him up. You’re wrong he’s right. It’s that simple. He’s just using the Bible. Now, most of the regular readers here are already thinking of verses and comebacks to prove that he’s wrong. There are some hate mongers who, if this guy’s first name was Doug and his last name rhymed with Racket or if he shared Robert Redford’s first name and the Liberty Bell’s last name, would be putting together hate posts where they would cross link to each other like West Virginia cousins in love and decry him a heretic. Why? He just believes what he believes based on the Bible?
So what? Can we not believe anything? Is everything up for grab? No, I don’t believe so, but I do have a fairly simple litmus test that I will put you through before I choose to listen to your words. That litmus test is simple really. I want to know do you have any of the following in your life?
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Self Control.
Why aren’t these things listed as the litmus test of our faith. If what you are trying to tell me is of the Spirit it should have these qualities to it. If it doesn’t then it is suspect. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE if you do not have these in your life. Your doctrine is as relevant to my life as the NBA.
Feel free to fight for the faith, feel free to write hit pieces about Godly men. I hope it makes you feel better. Feel free to anonymously protest me speaking at your camp and hide behind your authority. Feel free to threaten people below you. Feel free to continue not looking like Christ. It’s Ok, you don’t have to earn God’s love. He forgives you for the mistakes you made in that first marriage. You won’t cause God to love you more by being hateful. He doesn’t need you defending His truth. He did just fine before you and I were ever even a hormone inside our parents, He’ll keep doing fine long after our bodies are nothing more than dust in the bottom of a wood box encased in a cement box with six feet of dirt on our heads. Take all that energy and try to live these things out. Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married. I dare you. Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt. Be patient with all the liberals. I know, “I’m just spewing social gospel now.†But I’m telling you, you’re not going to impact me all that much without these things in your life. You won’t impact anyone. God won’t be impressed.
I guarantee you I can find someone who disagrees with most of your faith and does so because they believe they have the Bible to stand on. They’ll be willing to say that you just aren’t reading it right, or you’re interpretation is skewed. Sometimes, it cracks me up two opposing sides will be using the same verse. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what kind of fruit your doctrine and theology produces and everyone’s Bible says this list is fruit born of the Spirit. So I say Grace and Peace to all the Haters. Haters are on both sides of issues. I say to you, Love. Love your neighbors, love your enemies, love those more conservative than you. Love those more liberal than you. Love Barrack, and Hillary. Love McCain. Love Ken Silva and Ingrid Schluetter. Love God and Love the World. Please just don’t expect me to come running to your view because you have the Bible on your side. Please don’t expect me to give you credence because you believe your way is the most Biblical. Especially, if you’re focusing more on someone looking like you than you are on your trying to look more like this list.
Grace and Peace
March 17th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Joe,
I believe God gave us paragraph breaks for a reason…
March 17th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Phil,
I posted this elsewhere and they were there. It’s not here for some reason. I’ll try to fix it, but I’m not a Wordpress fan for this reason.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:55 am
wow.
nice.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I’ve seen this before. It goes something like this:
You believe X. I believe Y.
You misinterpret scripture, and claim the Bible is on your side.
You then tell me that I evidently don’t believe in the Bible (and/or write posts like this about me).
It’s one thing when crooked lawyers pull this kind of trick, but Christians should be above this.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Wow, Joe, what was that…less than 15 minutes before you got linked to by Ken? That might be a record of some sort.
I always have to remind myself that a line is crossed when I’d rather be right than serve the person I’m arguing with. It’s very easy to cross it. It’s much easier to take the instant gratification of being right than to put the hard work in of dealing with people who get on your nerves.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:16 am
“That litmus test is simple really. I want to know do you have any of the following in your life?”
So you have a disernment ministry. I’m not sure John the Baptist as well as many preachers in church history would pass that test as subjectivly processed.
BTW - if I have all those things, does that make my doctrine right?
I will grant you this, Joe, the gay and lesbian thing, you are correct. The sins of lost people should be irrelevant to all of us, they are just symptons that Christ came to forgive. In essence, its just politics and not redemption when we consider lost people’s sins. What do we have to do by judging those that are without (lost).
March 17th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Henry
Are you saying you don’t believe the fruit of the Spirit is important?
March 17th, 2008 at 10:25 am
haha, i don’t have the history with “this Ken character,” as our moms might say, but what a whiner.
you should change ODM to OWM.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
No, of course not. But those fruits are observed with subjectivity and partiality. Addionally those fruits seem to operate more fully within the context of those with whom we agree and they many times become less potent when in the heat of dialogue.
However, I have known unbelievers who show wonderful love and peace and joy and patience and yet their views were still wrong. My point was the Scriptures are the standard for truth not a person’s ability to project Christ.
And sometimes when you make a joke you get called a jerk which is usually verbiage reserved for my wife!
March 17th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I think I’ve read this somewhere before…
I think the first word was a fabric like um satin or um velvet…yes that was it, velvet.
The second word was some theologian of the 20th century. I think his name was presley.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Hey Dave Marriot,
I just watched “Open” last night, the new NOOMA. You should get it. Really, really good.
Grace and Peace to you, Dave.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:15 am
I’ve already seen it, Joe.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Good for you, Dave. Good for you.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
I would watch it but I’m busy watching grass grow.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Oh, that acerbic wit of yours Rick!
March 17th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Joe: Could you include the “Reformed Baptists” in there. I’m feeling a little left out. 8^)>
Interesting post. “Please just don’t expect me to come running to your view because you have the Bible on your side. Please don’t expect me to give you credence because you believe your way is the most Biblical.” If we do that, what in the world would we blog about?! 8^)>
Seriously, I have a friend that is an Elder in a Reformation Movement (Tim’s team) church (I served as an Elder at the same church until four years ago). I currently attend a Reformed/Founders Friendly Baptist church. I think he’s as wrong as the day is long when it comes to baptism, security of the believer, etc. He feels the same about me. We get together once a month for lunch just to catch up on what’s going on in our lives, family, etc. We even discuss doctrine from time to time, never agreeing. We enjoy each other’s company and the food. He’s headed toward the same eternity as me–we just disagree as to how each of will get there. Pretty simple.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Brother Phelps told me personally that his feelings often get hurt!
March 17th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
BTW, Joe.
If you haven’t checked out my blog recently, I didn’t appreciate it.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I”m sorry, I’ll come to your blog more often, I guess. ???
March 17th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
lol, whatever…
I just didn’t want you to think that I liked it…
March 17th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
I understand. I thought it was great.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Keith,
With all due respect to the point you are making, there is only one way to ‘get there’. Any way besides the grace of God will not cut it.
jerry
March 17th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Jerry: Please don’t misread my point. My friend believes was given the opportunity to believe and HE chose. I believe GOD chose him from the beginning and at the appointed time, gave him the ability to believe. That’s what I was talking about.
We both agree it is grace.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Keith,
If you both believe it is grace, then you don’t disagree at all about ‘how to get there.’ It seems to me that you disagree more on the nature of predestination and election or some such thing as that. But I did say, ‘with all due respect to the point you are making…’ Perhaps someday we could have a conversation, in another thread, about how God is glorified when he makes the choice for me and why, if he does, he doesn’t make the same choice for everyone. (Because If your assertion is true, I’m a little miffed about the fact that I have some family members, whom I love dearly, who haven’t been chosen for the same destiny as I am chosen for.) But I don’t want to interrupt or ruin this otherwise enlightening and stimulating conversation about what is a proper litmus test for faith to discuss it here. Some place else, some other day will be fine.
thanks.
your friend,
jerry
March 17th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Keith - thanks for the clarification. Your friend is correct and I assume he has the fruits of the Spirit as well!
March 17th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Jerry: Not that it makes it any “better,” but I have family members as well that are in the same boat, i.e “same destiny.” God is God.
March 17th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Mark Ratliff once said that there are hyper-Calvinists who do not believe Arminians are saved. I told I knew two people who disproved that -
Me and Paul.
March 17th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
let’s not mince words, boys.
as per the theology, you have family members who God chose to create only to send to hell for eternity.
March 17th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Evan stated: “…you have family members who God chose to create only to send to hell for eternity.”
Yep. That’s pretty much how I see it. How’s that for not “mincing.” No offense, but I’m not the one complaining. (I wouldn’t have phrased it like you did, but…)
March 17th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Baptists are not the only one’s who use this tactic (of course), I’ve run into the same problem with some hyper-Dispensationalists as well.
Neil
March 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
“…you have family members who God chose to create only to send to hell for eternity.â€
Jesus weeps over His own created will for Jerusalem. Talk about double minded.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
if you wouldn’t have phrased it like i did, then that’s mincing. everybody likes to say things like “God’s plan” blah blah blah, but many won’t come right out and say it.
but you agreed, so that’s good.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
what’s weird is that those with that belief can then talk about the love and compassion and grace of God with a straight face without seeing the cognitive dissonance.
and God gave us brains for a reason. they’re not just taking up space. so to recognize cognitive dissonance in a theology is, in itself, a gift from God.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Evan stated: “…God gave us brains for a reason. they’re not just taking up space.” I think I’ve just been insulted. Isn’t the first time–sure won’t be the last.
Evan, I didn’t say that it (my theology) didn’t cause me a little discomfort. I also didn’t come to it overnight.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Keith - that is a broad based assumption that is sometimes compromised by observable human conduct and speech, and blogs have contibuted significantly to the opposite view!
March 17th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
My dear Mr. Martino: You listed the fruits of our Heavenly Father’s Holy Spirit as being love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control as you should; but then you said: “Why aren’t these things listed as the litmus test of our faith. If what you are trying to tell me is of the Spirit it should have these qualities to it. If it doesn’t then it is suspect. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE if you do not have these in your life. Your doctrine is as relevant to my life as the NBA.” Now what was that about self-control being a litmus test of faith or am I missing your point???
March 17th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
no, that was just anticipating the “we might be uncomfortable with it, but God is God and His ways are not our ways blah blah blah” rebuttal.
i’m merely pointing out the insane cognitive dissonance in that theology - look, i was on staff at a 5-point Calvinist church, and i bought it for a while (or at least tried to. my conscience just kept pulling me back! my conscience which God gave me…)
remember my question from the other thread?
that theology reduces God to an insane sadistic child in a science lab without adult supervision, or an insane sadistic child who starts out by killing puppies, and then graduates to people one day when his “jealous anger” takes over.
March 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
no, Rick, the problem is that within religion, we are rarely taught the art of critical thinking.
instead they hold your head under water, literally and figuratively, and they tell you not to ask “those” kinds of questions.
fortunately, my mother raised me better than that (much to her chagrin).
March 17th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Evan - I know, just a little humor from one whose dormant grey matter is voluminous!
March 17th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Evan,
Regardless of all else that might explain this:
You should probably take a lesson from the post, mmmm?
Your arrogance astounds me sometimes. On second thought, so does mine. I’m not innocent either. So don’t think I havn’t seen or been convicted by the beam in my eye.
Don’t be so glad that your mental abilities in “critical thinking” are of more value than God given Scripture.
Disclaimer:
I know without a shadow of doubt that this comment will be picked and pulled apart for all kinds of “straw men”, “false dichotomies” or “hyper-Calvinist/Baptist”(because apparently they are synonymous) arguments and justifications for the behavior and attitude here. No doubt, since I have called into question the Christian attitude of Evan here, and really to many others here, I’m also sure it will be touted that “well S.J., tell this to Ken and Ingrid”, or something like that. The “w” word (whine) might pop back up again at my words. Oh well.
I am sick of the attitude of enlightened anti-religion; the attitude that if God is sovereign He is also a sadistic monster; the attitude that Calvinists are by and large ignorant, proud, unthinking pawns trying to make everyone into robots or some idiocy like that.
I am sick of it here, and I am sick of it my own life. Say what you guys want about slice and apprising and so on, but I have seen more hypocrisy here than many other places. It’s like watching 5 or 6 clones of me talking and bantering back and forth. I’m sick of it.
I’m not angry with you gentlemen. I’m just sick and tired of the attitude displayed here so often. It breaks my heart.
Now, let the tearing begin.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
You just sound angry. I hope you find the Grace and Peace of Jesus as often when we are “sick of it” we can miss that.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
In good humor I also say:
Phil said:
I would say to Evan:
God gave us capital letters for a reason too.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
you’re right, we can all learn humility. what i’m pointing out, though, isn’t an accusation of someone else’s critical thinking ability; rather, it’s a suggestion that some, and i’m not calling people out personally or even limiting it to this venue, in the Christian world simply DO NOT think critically about these things, and when they come up against certain things, they just fall back on “mystery of God.” in certain cases, such as here, there’s no mystery: it’s a really gross belief system that relies on undeserved grace (in theory) but serves to separate people into an upper and a lower class (in practice).
i’ll stick with my “what a whiner” comment. i don’t have a website where i post every fifteen minutes about all the things that are not to my liking in this world. they do. they’re exclusionary people with no sense of the real world. so yeah. whine on, little whiners. they’re not alone. others have chosen the path of “sit behind my computer and complain about things that actually have nothing to do with me.” Peter LaBarbera. Matt Barber of CWA. yes, they hide behind their Bibles, but really? they’re whining. apparently they can’t function as friendly fellow-humans in this journey.
i didn’t say Calvinists are unthinking pawns. i actually goaded one a few replies up into confirming the doctrine, without all the fluffy language. i do call into question, though, those who HAVE actually *thought* about it, and wonder at their abilities to accept such a heinous hateful doctrine, regardless of which verses they can point to and say “here!”
i also didn’t say that a sovereign God is necessarily a monster. i said that a God who uses His sovereignty in order to create and destroy souls at will, for His own glory, because he’s jealous of other Gods that supposedly aren’t there, but yet he’s jealous all the same…
that God? total monster.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Trust Me, I Use Them When It Matters.
eschewing the shift key adds at least 10 wpm to my already impressive 120.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
I’m continually amazed how most any post can be reduces to a discussion on Calvinism…
Neil
March 17th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
okay, for equal opportunity, Arminianism also supposes a sovereign God who “knows the beginning from the end,” yet lets free will do His will. result: same.
so i’d say it’s 53% as heinous.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Joe,
Angry? No. Not really my friend. Grieved, passionate, weary of being lampooned? Yeah, that’s a little closer. And I am not trying to euphemize. Being sick of something doesn’t make one unjustly angry Joe.
Believe me Joe. If I was angry in the way you imply, things would be terribly ugly. Just like anyone else. If that is all you got out of my comment, you should take a minute and look at yourself honestly. Is there any point to what I’m saying? I think so. Though you and I STRONGLY disagree on many matters, and much of the post today went against what I believe, I still was reminded that all I do must be in the fruits of the Spirit you mentioned to you credit. Just think about my first comment again Joe. And don’t be too quick to send out prayers for my uncharitability and anger. It may be something much kinder and better. You would probably agree that right passion will sound angry to the inattentive ear. So listen again Joe.
Thanks
March 17th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Jerry B,
What does self-control have to do with your quote of Joe? There was no lack of said ’self-control’ demonstrated in the quote (which basically said “without the fruit of the spirit, any doctrine is irrelevant” - which is true and well-controlled…
March 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
And don’t be too quick to send out prayers for my uncharitability and anger.
Thank you for proving my point, S.J. I wasn’t saying your point was in any way uncharitable. Although I will say your second point misses a verse in I Corinthians about love not being easily offended. I sincerely meant that I when people are “just sick of it” they can miss the grace and peace in their life that Jesus has for them.
Grace and Peace to you, S.J.
also, if you love me please read I Corinthians
March 17th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
OH and I never said anything about unjust. Maybe upset would have been a better word than angry although I believe they are synonymous.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Evan,
In reply to your rebuttal. I too get weary of people–on either side–pointing to one verse or even two and saying “here!”. But remember this too: we say we believe the Word. If we don’t we’re not, by definition, Christian. So with that out of the way, it would stand to reason there are a few verses and sentences that sum up a certain point rather well, and when examined along side everything else do not contradict. If so, we are as bound to these individual verses as we are the whole text as supreme.
Suggestion, when someone throws a scripture reference in your face again–justly or not–don’t say a single word about it. Go home, get your Bible and maybe a word study and dig yourself a grave so to speak. I’m not saying you haven’t done this before, I’m saying if you have, do it again. Do it every time. And leave old Calvin out of it. Leave Arminius out of it. I believe what believe and and have never read much of either. My “heinous hateful doctrine” came from the Word, and not just one or two verses or passages. For truly, those can and are taken out of context often to prove points that may or may not be accurate. My beliefs came from reading 1,2 Peter, Psalm 119, Psalm 50-51, Jeremiah, Amos, and 59 others in whole or part.
I ran to the Gospels, and He found me there. I ran to the letters and He found me there. I ran to the prophets and I was found again. Exhausted, out-thought, outwitted, and out-willed, I died–or rather, I realized my death. The my “heinous hateful” God took me down off the cross and ensured me that I was His and nothing, not even my own arrogant and unseeing will could keep me from Him.
I hope these words haunt you. That have me these past few years. I am telling the truth of what happened to me.
Don’t ever speak of my God that way again. You don’t know what you’re doing. Neither did I.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Yeah,
Jerry B. I think you may have missed the point of my post, but I’m not sure what you’re asking. Would you mind clarifying?
March 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Hey Joe,
I will read it again, you have my word. But remember this too. If I said what I did at this single instance, I would be easily offended and rightly rebuked. And though in all cases I should forgive (70 x 7 comes to mind), I will clarify something. This is not the first time. Nor is it the 491st. I humbly and heartily forgive any personal hurt inflicted by anyone, here or not. That wasn’t my main point. I did not perhaps communicate well I’ll grant.
I’m sick of what I believe being trashed as hateful and heinous. I’m sick of the Word becoming almost a deplorable thing when used as citation. Forget that some misuse. Many don’t, but are still painted as fightin’ fundies or something like that.
I’m not just talking about what has been said here an now. No, I cite the specifics of the moment to exemplify the whole pattern. Things said here are not just found on this particular thread. I am talking about the whole thing. So it isn’t really helping you to say “I didn’t actually say this or that”. No, maybe you didn’t. That’s not my point. I’m talking about the attitude and am using a citation here and there for example.
This is the same respect that I would hope to receive. If one would look at the whole of my posts, and interactions and so forth one would definitely find instances of sin and lacking. But I would hope that the whole would be taken into account in determining my position.
As a whole, I am tired of what I see so often here, though interspersed with good stuff now and then, I don’t see any difference often between what this site claims to answer.
That is my problem. And if so, we’re way beyond personal affront and easy offense.
I speak as humbly as I possibly can Joe. I am not trying to appear better or “right”. But let’s just assume for argument’s sake that I am and that the attitudes I am tired of are indeed what I percieve and as such are truly sin. Now assuming that, it would be logical and RIGHT to become weary and “sick of it” in people who claim to be family would it not? That is where I am at. And all I ask is that the possibility that the general attitude around here should change be entertained even momentarily.
Thanks for your gracious responses Joe, I do appreciate it.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Evan,
So what exactly about the big Baptist church bothers you?
What is their hypocrisy?
Why do you have so much hatred towards Christians?
And why do you generally speak of Christianity as if it’s the only religion that has hypocrites? Surely you could turn aside from every religion - including that of atheists and agnostics - because of some of their representatives.
And certainly you could tear up the “logic” of other religions as well as those who have “no religion.”
Why the antagonism towards Chritianity?
March 17th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I’m praying for you, S.J. I know how you feel. I get very weary and frustrated, too. I think all of us Christians could work on our attitudes. For me personally, I need to work on love, patience, kindness and self control.
BTW, great article Joe M. Thanks for the reminder.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Amy, I’m not going to speak for Evan, but I just had a thought about something you said.
One could, very easily, tear up the logic of other religions, and point out their hypocrisies. But when one believes that Christianity is the only true way, it’s a whole lot easier to be critical of its believers. I believe hypocrisy is one of the biggest threats to Christianity. Sadly, many of us or all of us end up being hypocrites without even meaning to.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Linguistic exchange is an exercise in communication but does little to promote truth since all language comes with incomplete definitions as well as nuances and indeed different definitions. Opposite positions can be defended by two well intentioned communicators and persuade different sections of listeners who are processing the information differently.
There are many variables at play, emotions, education, presuppositions, openess, prejudice, upbringing, friends, personal admiration, and even the opinions of those we love. So unless we judge everything theological by the written revelation we have nothing more than a communicative kaleidoscope driven by the particulars I mentioned previously. Rare is the instance when someone is demonstrably changed through discussions of position already well established in our minds.
Only when the Scriptures are approached with an open and humble spirit can there be any genuine expectation of arriving at the mind of Christ. The books of men can be a stumbling block from every perspective and they usually serve to further cement familiar opinions because most are chosen expressions that we expect to deepen our views, not change them.
Summarily, discourse can only be spiritually edifying when something is said that drives us to the Scriptures not to disprove it but be taught by God’s Spirit. This is of course the most difficult of personal disciplines since we all come inherrant with a self/personal view of the uprightness of our motives. In essence we measure ourselves by ourselves.
So the Scriptures must be the standard by which we arrive at all spiritual truth even while buffered by our individual interpretations. Go to many churches and you will see people being convinced by the oratorical prowess of the preacher, or the strength of his personality, or even the earthly logic used as a pitcher to pour out Scriptural interpretation. And in reality the spiritual laziness that lives openly in the pews reveals a great hinderance as well.
We may avoid the phrase “The Bible says” but we must never avoid the principle contained in those words. It is our only hope…Obi-Wan.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Amen Rick.
And I have one question for Joe regarding the post:
You said:
Following that, and I understand where you’re coming from, can bad theology produce good fruit?
Steep 20 minutes then remove lid(or baseball cap) to reduce pressure.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Of course, in man’s eyes. The “angel of light” principle still applies. That is why a person’s fruit can be a enhancement to truth, but never the standard.
March 17th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
I agree with that, especially if one believes that being a Christian means being led by the Holy Spirit and having the mind and attitude of Christ.
Evan, however, apparently doesn’t believe that Christianity is the only true way - and I’m wondering why he doesn’t seem to be antagonistic to other religions and people of other religions in the same way that he is Christianity.
Sometimes I get the idea that it’s the exclusive claims of Christianity that he doesn’t like. But if he thinks that Christianity is the only religion that presents itself as “the only way” or “the true way” or “the best way” then I wonder how much about other religions he actually knows . . .
Even the idea of “whatever religion works for you is fine” can be seen as arrogant and exclusive in its own way, if it is held to as THE way to believe.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Rick, my point exactly.
Also, any one can produce specimens that replicate the fruit mentioned herein. But like in says in John 15, it must be fruit that LASTS. It must be the pattern.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
If Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, should He be presented as such?
March 17th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Bad Theology can not produce true fruit. If what you are trying to teach me is true it will have fruit of the Spirit in it. Light is not found in the list of the fruit.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
SJ - The frustration comes in when we believe we can change anybody. We cannot. As a matter of fact, when we attempt to change someone else it usually changes us - for the worst.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Rick, absolutely, and no offense, but what does that say about free will?
March 17th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
It means God gives you the free will to be a Calvinist. What grace!!
March 17th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Rick,
Yeah. Pretty much. Cool isn’t it.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
i am of the opinion all of us are heretics to one degree or another. we have taken 2000 years of church history and theology and have built a huge house. we continue to move away from the simplicity of the jesus christ and the gospel.
we have developed complex systematic theologies by which we war with our fellow christians. we all have a party spirit. we all follow after the teachings of men. in other words we are all screwed up. we think we are not. we think we are right. i guess one day we’ll find out.
all of us are tainted and influenced by what we have been taught and experience. i despise calvinism because of my experience with calvinist apologists/pastors and churches. so when it comes to calvinism my ears are closed. i don’t want to hear it, same goes for prosperity theology, king james onlyism, etc.
in the above mentioned parties, and others, there is a spirit of dissension and argument. their theologies divide and hurt. they exclude rather than include. any theology that prides itself on keeping people out should be rejected.
count me as one worn out follower of jesus. god is not the problem. his fussing, arguing children are.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Thanks Brutus,
could not have said it better.
Opus
March 17th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Wow, Evan. I step away for a few hours and “…i’m merely pointing out the insane cognitive dissonance…”
I googled the last two words of that sentence and I guess on top of being a convinced believer in the doctrines of grace, I’m also stupid. If you’re going to be angry or talk ugly to me, at least do it so I can understand. Everyone here doesn’t read a thesaurus for the fun of it! Gee whiz!
Anyway, it sounds like you’re mad at me because I don’t believe like you. I used to be in an Arminian (Reformation Movement) church and you don’t see me “yelling” at you. Sorry I bothered you by trying to join the conversation.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
As a Calvinist, I’d agree with you, if it weren’t for one minor factor — namely that it’s a somewhat accurate attitude.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I’m inclined to agree with much of what Evan has said, and I don’t see any antagonism in his statements. Or maybe its just because I find myself agreeing with him. Amy, why do you say he hates Christians. I don’t see that in anything he’s posted. I think you can exercise critical thinking and still be a Christian. And if you don’t believe that, then you’re simply validating the statement. Not everyone is satisfied with “Go to the Word” or “Jesus said” as an answer to every question. I know I’m not. Being a Christian is not, and shouldn’t be synonymous with being lobotomized.
…and God gave us brains for a reason. they’re not just taking up space. so to recognize cognitive dissonance in a theology is, in itself, a gift from God.
Couldn’t agree more, Evan.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
think of how easy it is for us to be arrogant about the rightness of our personally held truth. unless we hold to some form of universalism, we all believe some are excluded. maybe just a few. maybe a lot. but some degree of exclusion is required. that is just the nature of theological systems. (and the bible seems to teach it)
our arrogance shows itself when we come to believe that our truth is the final, only truth. god said it, i believe it, that settles it for me. i am right, damn the heretics and the catholics too.
we give ourselves way too much credit. some people think they are able to think independently of any influence. i call this the myth of neutrality. because we believe this, it is easy to become arrogant and believe our truth is “the” truth.
i am not sure what god wanted or meant when he gave us the bible. surely we have corrupted his intent. we have turned following jesus into a sport, complete with rules and teams. we have turned the bible into a how-to manual and an answer book for all of life’s questions.
if this is all so…………why are most, if not all of us, if the truth be told, messed up? we are not really the spiritual picture we give to others. we are excellent at building a facade. or maybe the problem is just me.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
The point that I was trying to make, Chris L. and Mr. Martino, is that when someone resorts unto saying things such as “I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE”: they are abandoning the high ground. For the same point can be made in much gentler terms. Hence: the fruit of self-control.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Ah - perhaps like saying things like:
Or
Yes - such a lack of self control… wouldn’t want to be like that…
March 18th, 2008 at 1:10 am
Jerry,
It may also be the call to join someone on the “high ground” as your doctrine means nothing without God working and producing His Fruit.
I have conversed with many that are fixated on their OWN fruit and miss we have none. It is all God
s fruit and we just bear it.
So, before one claims the “high ground” some first must attain it. In that it is God who lifts us up.
iggy
March 18th, 2008 at 1:29 am
okay back now. St Patrick’s Day. duh.
um. that’s intense.
but i would suggest that i can throw the “don’t talk about MY god that way” thing riiiiiight back atcha.
so don’t pull that.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:31 am
then don’t believe hateful and heinous things.
i’d say the same thing to the suicide bombers who believe they’re about to be greeted with 72 virgins…
yeah.
i call them equal.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:36 am
oh, it’s just that they’re phenomenally hateful toward everyone in the city that’s not white and fundamentalist christian.
got it?
ARE you kidding? if i hated Christians so much, i wouldn’t be here dialoguing with you. yes, there are certain brands of Christians that i have written off completely. they are not worth the breath they take.
however, i hold out hope that there are a few Christians left who actually follow Christ.
that’s what i try to do. i don’t call myself a Christian, because the word has been tainted so. i call myself an Agnostic (because i’m not arrogant) who is a follower of Christ.
because, in the West, you all think you have the right to rule everything. maybe if i came from a nation which didn’t assume (falsely) that it was founded on Christianity, it would be different.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:40 am
nuhnuhnuhnuhno.
as i just said, but i’ll say it again…over here on this side of the pond, Christians think they actually have the birthright for this nation.
they’re ignorant when they think that, as a perfunctory look at history will reveal, but yet they take it as fact.
so.
when we are CONSTANTLY bombarded with the idiocies of people who claim the mantle of Christianity in this country, yeah, it’s bound to get old after a while.
look.
i was raised in the Christian church.
wanna hear something?
if i could change one thing about my entire life, it would be that i would have NOT been raised in the Christian church.
suck on that for awhile, and consider what might have led to that perspective.
seriously.
all the trials i’ve dealt with in my life, if i could change ONE THING. my parents wouldn’t have been Christians.
deal with it.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:41 am
mad? no, i don’t get mad at nameless faceless entities on the internet.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:12 am
Merry, maybe you hit on it. In this part of the world (again), Christians are the ones who swear up and down, repeatedly, that THEY are the only ones with any understanding of “truth.”
and look. say it all you want, but the rest of us aren’t buying it.
you may have a book you can turn to that says (again with the original subject of this thread) “look! it says it right here!”
but i happen to believe that it’s a book.
it’s an interesting book.
it’s a learned book.
it’s a book written by humans.
it’s a book written by humans in an attempt to explain our existence, in some parts.
it’s a book written by humans in an attempt to control other humans, in other parts.
in large part.
it’s not one book.
it’s lots of books, written by different humans.
many (i, included) don’t buy the idea that God somehow engineered the compilation of these writings.
why?
well, because they constantly contradict each other. i mean, the Gospels? they can’t even agree on simple details, much less whether Jesus was God.
however, i don’t believe that Christianity has nothing to offer…
in fact, i believe Christianity offers Christ. other religions acknowledge Christ.
but i don’t believe he meant to establish “Christianity” as we understand it today.
so…maybe that’s what it is…maybe that’s what’s so obnoxious about so many “Christians.” this viewpoint that suggests that they, and they only, have the key to the “way, the truth, and the life.”
i’m more inclined to believe that God is so much bigger than any of us could possibly imagine, and that God cannot be confined in ANY box, any book, any doctrine, any supposed exclusive way to salvation.
i’m more inclined to believe that any human being who sincerely seeks God will be met by God. that any human being who truly endeavors to find communion with God, will find communion with God. that the greatest sin we can actually commit on this plane is to ignore the existence of something greater than us.
otherwise?
God’s entire universe is devolved into a petty and jealous, yet giant, “fuck you” to the humanity He created.
(hey, Ingrid? i used a potty word. smoke on it for the next month.)
March 18th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Evan
With respect. You are losing the ability to dialogue well here. I appreciate that this is touching something pretty raw inside - but please don’t dominate like this - it doesn’t help you or anyone else.
With grace
Ian
March 18th, 2008 at 5:10 am
Can’t imagine a better illustration of the main point of this post.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Or Mr. Beuterbaugh you could quote the whole sentence. That’d be a great place to start. Chris L, did a fine job answering the rest of your stuff. That word unless is pretty important in that sentence.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:52 am
sorry.
got testy.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Evan,
When you say this:
You cop out of any responsibility. It’s a simple fact Evan. I’m not trying to be hard for the sake of being hard. But whether you interpret parts of the Bible differently, to a point, is one thing. But to say that you don’t believe it to be the very words of God is in fact the opposite of Christian. Now you’re gonna hate me for saying that, but I’m telling you the truth.
If you can’t have the faith that God oversaw and insured the perfection of the Word of Himself, you can’t possibly believe any other foundational, non-negotiable terms of Christianity.
If one does not believe the Word of God to be THE word of God, then he can at will, disregard anything he wishes. Like charity which you have honestly let go of here with your entire argumentative paradigm of vague generalities, and your wandering rants against church, Christianity, Baptists and other groups and entities you seem to know very little about.
People misuse Scripture all over the place as Joe pointed out. Yes, it is unwise to thoughtlessly cite a verse here or there that supports one’s argument. It’s just plain wrong. However, there are some that are not mis-understandable.
1 Thessalonians 4:8
Romans 15:3-5
But I waste my time. It was just a man that wrote that.
You are in my prayers Evan.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Only the Holy Spirit, the Author of Scripture, can open a man’s heart and show him the truth about God’s Word. No amount of human discourse can accomplish that.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Good point Rick. Drop by the Lion’s Den any time and I’ll try and straighten you out on the rest of your theology.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I, for one, would rather be a naive Christian clinging to a cross on a hill outside the city, than an educated and intellectual governor sitting in his palace asking “what is Truth?’.
Just sayin’.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
S.J.,
Talk about a false dichotomy…
Fortunately, there are other choices than naivete and extreme skepticism.
Oh, and by the way, I laughed when I saw your blog’s name - the Lion’s Den is the name of the bar next door to where our campus church meets.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Phil - next time you are in the Lion’s Den look closely at the bartender’s name tag that says “SJ” and put the pieces together!
March 18th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Thank you for that Phil. Edifying for everyone I’m sure.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
someone said: If you can’t have the faith that God oversaw and insured the perfection of the Word of Himself, you can’t possibly believe any other foundational, non-negotiable terms of Christianity.
really? one can reject inerrancy and still accept the bible as the word of god. you are forcing a modern evangelical construct on the bible.
the bible is faithful in all it is intended to convey. it is not a science book. it is not a math book. it is not all the truth there is.
it is a book about god, man, and redemption
the bible has errors in it. so what. it is still god’s word. no translation is without error. no manuscript is without error. since we don’t have the original manuscripts all we have are texts with errors.
unless one believes that god supernaturally has preserved his perfect words throughout history (and if so where are they please tell me) then one must admit the bible is a flawed book and evidently that is the way god wanted it.
i do not know evan’s spiritual state. neither do any of you. to suggest that because he doesn’t subscribe to your view of the bible makes his a non-believer is laughable.
salvation is not by believing in inerrancy. salvation is through the person and work of jesus. period. the church did not have an official printed text for centuries. until the printing press most christians never even owned a bible. to this day the various sects of the christian church debate which books are canonical.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Brutus,
Your point is actually a good one. I think putting a belief in inerrancy before a belief in Christ is actually something that people seem to do. Greg Boyd actually is talking about this on his blog lately. Here’s an excerpt from the latest article:
March 18th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I believe the inerrancy of Scripture is very important, however, one can be a devoted follower of Christ and not believe it. Some believe that mixed in with clear and immutable truths are some minor inaccuracies that do nolt affect the overall and specific revelation of the written Word.
Of course there are others who do not believe in inerrancy who deconstuct all cardinal doctrines and contour the interpretation of Scripture to fit into every individual and private view. That is the danger with moving away from inerrancy which is of course by faith. It remains, though, that we have brothers and sisters who do not believe it as well as believers all over the world who have never considered the argument in that context.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
S.J.,
I wasn’t trying to imply anything. I just found it funny. If I told someone to drop by the Lion’s Den it would have a totally different meaning from what you said. That’s all.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
The point I was making, is that believing in Jesus–truly–is inseparable from believing inerrancy. They go together until the end. Can someone become saved and still believe that the Bible has mistakes? I’ll buy that. But he cannot stay there.
And saying one believes there are some minor discrepancies in translation is one thing. Saying one believes it is man-made and not protected by God throughout history before and after it was canonized is a completely different thing. One cannot stay there and hold to such faithless arguments and still be Christian.
No, I don’t have the ability or the right to say Evan is flat out un-Christian–but what he said was. That is the point.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Rick
Maybe I’m having a blonde moment (a common occurrence I’ll grant), but I don’t get that one. Sorry. Just emial me if you want to.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
SJ - I was having you as the bartender in Phil’s bar reference. Just a little fun, I would guess you wouldn’t be a bar tender, right? Of course I was also having fun with Phil. Do you frequent that bar, Phil?
Remember, moderation brother!
March 18th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Rick,
Okay, let’s add joking to the thing I’ll try and help you out with should you drop by…th– my blog.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
i will state flatly, with full, complete knowledge that i reject your notion of inerrancy and that, in fact, i am a follower of jesus christ, and that i, in fact believe the bible to be god’s word.
pray tell me, which translation is inerrant? which manuscripts are inerrant? please point me to “the”inerrant word?
the bible is still not canonized. catholics believe one thing, protestants another. the “original” kjv included the apocryphal books. many of the “church” fathers rejected certain books as being canonical. how can we call them christian if they rejected any part of the bible? how about luther and his views on james and revelation? how about paul telling us in his writings that some of his writing is his personal opinion?
shall i go on? of course, none of the above is a problem for me. i don’t make the bible into a super-duper, all knowing, problem solving, better than a ouija board book. the bible was never meant to be what many christians expect it to be.
to head you off at the pass………….i have never doubted a day in my life that what i read in the bible is true to the degree that it imparts to man that which god wanted it to.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
The question I must ask myself, do I have the faith of Daniel and am I ready to venture into the Lion’s Den?
March 18th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Rick,
I’ve never been in it, but I do talk to the owner occasionally. He’s a nice guy. I don’t drink at all, so I don’t really have a reason to go in. It would be a very hard place to have a conversation in because it a very loud college bar most of the time.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Very well put, Brutus. Some problems in that, but all in all a very good tesimony.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Brutus,
As far as Luther goes, you might need to do some homework.
The Christian Bible is in fact canonized. It doesn’t take long to