I nearly fell over in laughter in reading Ingrid’s recent piece about how nothing really peaceful can come from Islam. Here are her comical words.

The London Telegraph reports on a new Muslim evangelist who has a whole different take on Allah. Apparently the Muslims that flew into the World Trade Center had the wrong one. Apparently the Saracens who sliced and chopped their way through Europe and the Middle East with Allah’s sword in the year 732 had it all wrong as well. Evidently, the Muslims who have committed 10,663 reported acts of terrorism since 9-11 also had it wrong. For a real look at the Allah of love, visit the Religion of Peace website that documents the atrocities done in Allah’s name. This new Muslim evangelist may be useful to ignorant Western tolerance shills like Tony Campolo and Jim Wallis, but he is living in different world than the rest of us are. Just ask the victims of 9-11 or the 10, 663 terror attacks since.

Of course, Ingrid would never mention that, while many believers would profess that God is love, hundreds of abortion clinics are bombed in the name of Jesus Christ. Forget the fact that hundreds of fallen soldiers are having their funerals invaded by posters with Christian phrases such as “God Hates Fags”. Cover up the crusades, the Salem witch trials, and other atrocities in the name of the Lord. Just ask the family members who had their grandfather hung by a tree and burned by Jesus Christ’s KKK. We all worship the same God that ordained these events, yes? You see, the same arguments that show Islam is not a religion of peace are the same arguments that show Christianity has nothing to do with love.

Apparently Ingrid forgot that little proverb “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones”

**UPDATE**

Ok, there are not literally hundreds of abortion clinics being bombed.  Rather than address the issues, the ODMs have decided to nit-pic the details.  Here are the hard facts if you really want them.

Since 1977 in the United States and Canada, acts of violence committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, and 619 bomb threats.

Not enough evidence?

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61 Comments(+Add)

1   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:19 am

When was the last time you heard of Methodists strapping on bomb belts and setting them off in a crowded cafe’? The fact is, violence is at the very heart of Islam, as any cursory reading of the Koran and it’s early history will tell you. Please tell me you’re not drawing a moral equivalence between a few fringe “Christian” fanatics and what is generally becoming more mainstream behavior out of Islam.

2   Ingrid    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
March 5th, 2008 at 8:30 am

Hundreds of abortion clinics bombed? Now I’m laughing. That has to be the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. Please prove that.

3   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 8:44 am

I’d hardly call the crusades as something from the “fringe”.
and forget the crusades…

what about all the killing in the name of God during the Reformation period?

It wasn’t just those “dirty catholics”, protestants killing protestants and catholics too.

What about the German Lutheran church that stood by during the holocaust? (And spare me the dreck about Hitler being influenced by the RCC–many an RCC priest was “disappeared” during that time.)

To the point: So they didn’t strap on bombs, does the method really matter?

The bottom line: Religions have their violent moments, you can try to explain it away, etc. etc., but the reality is that none of us are blameless.

And THAT is what Nathan’s post is really about. The fact that someone would go off without taking into account that pesky little thing called “reality”.

And please spare me any garbage about “not caring” about the threat of terrorism, etc. etc. etc. This isn’t about wanting to “lay down”…it’s about not taking up the ideological weapons of those who are enemies.

They demonize us, then we demonize them.

Instead of de-humanizing people to keep things emotionally simple, why not see them as tragic examples of the brokenness of the world, a brokenness that YOU share in too.

That doesn’t preclude you from “protecting” yourself, etc. it just means your soul won’t be marred like theirs.

4   corey    http://learning-to-listen.blogspot.com
March 5th, 2008 at 8:59 am

Ingrid, I think Jesus said something about loving your enemies, praying for those who persecute you, turning the other cheek, etc. Where’s the love??

5   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 5th, 2008 at 9:03 am

Ray Jr,
I think the basic point remains the same, there has been times when the church (or those claiming to be the church) have used the methods of this world to pursue the things of this world. And I would point out also, that in another thread Ingrid advocating for enforcing scriptural command via legislative fiat, something that many Imams support, they just disagree on what is scripture.

And Ingrid is right on the number of clinic bombings. Here’s a chart that shows that clinic violence peaked in 1992 at 32 incidents. I also suspect that violence and general harassment of abortion clinics are in direct proportion to how much energy and animation surrounds protesting clinics, which, thank God, has waned in the last decade. I can’t think of a more obvious example in which the church acted like the world than in protesting in general, but also abortion clinics in particular.

6   Brian    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:03 am

Oh Ingrid, you need help. To deny that violence is at the heart of your faith is to deny history. Are you suggesting that we are not to love these people? Muslims are not all that different than the Romans of Jesus day.

7   M.G.    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:08 am

Ingrid,

The National Abortion Federation reports that since 1977 in the United States and Canada, acts of violence committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, and 619 bomb threats.

I don’t think the phrase “that’s the most outrageous thing I’ve ever heard” means what you think it means. Perhaps you should try another phrase that communicates faux-indignation.

8   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:16 am

Uh, Brian? Violence is the heart of the Christian faith? Christ could have called down angels from heaven to smite those doing violence to Him but He didn’t. He voluntarily layed down His life to suffer death and eventual resurrection for us. That is the heart of the Christian faith. The others who do violence in the name of the Lord will not be recognized by Him; for many say “Lord, Lord” but God casts them away from Him for eternity.

9   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 5th, 2008 at 9:33 am

Man, Nathan, you really know how to push Ingrid’s buttons. No one gets her self righteous indignation going faster than a response by you.

The thing is this. I don’t think we can turn a blind eye to any violence committed in the name of religion. To some extent, the failure of Christians to own up to the more embarrassing parts of our history have hurt our witness. Whether or not Muslims have been more violent is a moot point. It’s hard to speak prophetically against violence if we deny our issues with it.

10   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:39 am

I believe Ingrid’s article is meant as a comment on Islam by itself rather than as a comparative “we’re so good compared to them” analysis. As far as I know, Ingrid writes with intention that her audience is Christians who already know the truth of Christianity. We should already know that violence done in the Lord’s name is done in spite of true Christianity whereas violence done in Allah’s name is done in because of the nature of Islam.

11   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:39 am

I really love too the part in Ingrid’s article about how the northern germanic tribes were basically warriors for the Gospel…wow! who knew?!? They polled the armies of ancient german tribes to see how many of them acknowledged Jesus as their Lord and Savior!

Nevermind those folk were “christianized” not necessarily “christian”. I love it! When blog traffics slow, you need the Roman church to kick cuz they’re bad! When you need them to perpetuate your cultural mythology then they’re gospel warriors….

History lessons needed?
No doubt.

12   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:52 am

I disagree that the “Crusades” was Christian but rather that it was Catholic.

I would like more details regarding this “protestants killing protestants and catholics too. [during the Reformation period.] I’ve always seen this mentioned here but there are no specifics given.

13   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:53 am

oh, and I’m sure that last comment was “vicious” and “mean” and “rage filled”.

what.
ever.

14   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 9:55 am

You don’t have the luxury of that distinction….

Catholic was the only “Christian” at that time…sorry.

Prots. vs. Prots.: For example, Calvin was all for the drowning of Anabaptists because they wanted to be baptized again which he didn’t see as necessary. If you wanna be baptized again, then we’ll help you! We’ll take you to the river and hold you under.

15   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 9:58 am

There is a whole website describing what the Puritans did to the Catholics in Ireland. They were pretty brutal.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/history/moranindex.html

In addition, I wrote a post a while back that talked about Protestant/Calvinistic/Puritan law and rule:

http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/01/25/do-we-really-want-to-go-back/

For the record, I don’t buy the “we weren’t as bad as them” argument.

16   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 5th, 2008 at 9:59 am

Its interesting that Ingrid is so anti-Muslim violence but has no problem openly endorsing the theology of a man who murdered in the name of Christ.

17   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 10:05 am

Protestants: You don’t have to look that much farther than Calvin.

The Crusades: You can’t blame the Cathoics only for this, as there were no “Protestants” in the picture.

Protestant vs. Catholic (both of which are considered Christian – even if you don’t like to accept it): LOTS of places, with the most recent exampler being in Northern Ireland

From the moment that Constantine made Christianity the ‘official’ religion of Rome, the church has (on and off again) allowed itself to be used as a tool of oppression through the means and methods of the world (violence, political intrigue, exploitative power) rather than those of Jesus (peace, submission, service).

18   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 10:06 am

Here is something from wikipedia about Cromwell’s rule over Ireland:

In the wake of the Commonwealth’s conquest, the public practice of Catholicism was banned and Catholic priests were executed when captured. In addition, roughly 12,000 Irish people were sold into slavery under the Commonwealth.[36] All Catholic-owned land was confiscated in the Act for the Settlement of Ireland 1652 and given to Scottish and English settlers, the Parliament’s financial creditors and Parliamentary soldiers. The remaining Catholic landowners were allocated poorer land in the province of Connacht. Under the Commonwealth, Catholic landownership dropped from 60% of the total to just 8%.[37]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell#Irish_Campaign:_1649.E2.80.9350

19   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 10:14 am

This isn’t Christian bashing…this is called “acknowledging reality”.

20   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
March 5th, 2008 at 10:18 am

Wow, Ingrid’s rhetoric becomes scarier by the day. I’m curious what she thinks look like Christ in either of her pieces.

21   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 10:23 am

And she uses Bob Jones as proof that her version of Christianity ain’t all bad. Are blacks and whites allowed to date each other at Bob Jones yet? Looks like Nathan’s picture for his article hit the nail on the head.

22   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am

Thanks for the links, guys. Suppose you are at the beach or mall evangelising…what do you say to non-Christians who bring up the Crusades and other violence by Christians as “proof” that Christianity is a false religion? How would you guys address that?

23   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
March 5th, 2008 at 10:31 am

what do you say to non-Christians who bring up the Crusades and other violence by Christians as “proof” that Christianity is a false religion?

Wanna go get a pretzel?

24   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 10:31 am

Tim-

Admitting that Christians have made mistakes is a good first step. Telling them that you don’t advocate or endorse such actions and that you don’t think that Jesus does either. Just loving them, helping out your neighbor if they need something, etc.

25   Nathan    
March 5th, 2008 at 10:36 am

Timothy,

I think being real about it is important. Acknowledging that some people have done some really stupid things in the name of our God is important. It immediately lets people know that we are authentic, not trying to hid the bad and highlight the good. Sometimes I have apologized, letting them know how much it disturbs me that these things were done.

I would also say that what they did has NOTHING to do with the scriptures and the movement of Jesus Christ. It is actually a great intro into the brokenness of humanity.

Ingrid’s method, deny and smooth over (or say that a nation was “called” to kill others post scripture), turns people off. It is the same as the Muslims denying the holocaust.

26   corey    http://learning-to-listen.blogspot.com
March 5th, 2008 at 10:36 am

Timothy,
I apologize for it. Even though I had no direct involvement personally, those who did these things were “part of the family” so to speak. If my grandfather had been a murderer, I would feel obligated to apologize for his wrongs to the family, friends and community of those who had been killed. I don’t make any excuses, but simply acknowledge that it happened, that Christians have not always acted like Christians, and point people to the way of love which is at the heart of Jesus’ teachings.
corey

27   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 10:38 am

Suppose you are at the beach or mall evangelising…what do you say to non-Christians who bring up the Crusades and other violence by Christians as “proof” that Christianity is a false religion? How would you guys address that?

Donald Miller set up a confession booth on his campus, in which he confessed the sins of the Christian church (like the crusades, abortion clinic bombings, etc.), asking for their forgiveness for not acting in a way congruent with the name of Christ.

Making an apology, disavowing the mentality behind the violence, and asking forgiveness (even if it is not received) are all excellent starts – particularly when dealing with people asking the question because of the impact of violence in the name of Christ directly upon their families or ancestors…

28   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 11:10 am

Thanks, guys, for your response. Yes, that is what I’ve done, apologize for supposed Christian wrongs of the past (though I wasn’t really familiar with the Cromwell or other stuff.) Sharing the true Gospel usually would show that Christianity isn’t about righting the wrongs violently.

Donald Miller set up a confession booth on his campus, in which he confessed the sins of the Christian church (like the crusades, abortion clinic bombings, etc.), asking for their forgiveness for not acting in a way congruent with the name of Christ.

Dwayna set up a poster for use at the West Hollywood outreach, “We are sorry for the way we have mistreated you.” She was referring to activities like the Westboro Baptist “God Hates Fags” does toward homosexuals. See
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/2008/01/hindering-gospel-of-our-lord.html

29   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 11:41 am

A. Bob Jones is a crying joke.

B. The only reason Christians feel free to throw these stones at Islam right now is that the fringes of Islam are having a violent moment in history. Since we didn’t live during the Crusades, the Inquisition, Salem, etc., it’s easy for people to forget that Christianity has a lot of blood on its hands. Most major religions do.

C. Part of the problem here is that people like Ingrid are so phenomenally uneducated about the Muslim world…it’s an American problem. Most of us don’t take the time to get to know our Pakistani neighbor, but rather talk behind their backs about what *might* be going on behind those doors. Getting to know Muslims is a step.

D. When a Christian talks about Islam being an “inherently” violent religion, I simply suggest they read a few pages of the Old Testament.

as usual, the poets/songwriters/artists express it best…from a song written after two of these supposedly fictitious attacks on abortion clinics, by Ani DiFranco:

and the blood poured off the pulpit
yeah the blood poured down the picket lines
yeah, the hatred was immediate
and the vengeance was divine
so they went and stuffed god
down the barrel of a gun
and after him
they stuffed his only son

30   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 11:52 am

Dwayna set up a poster for use at the West Hollywood outreach, “We are sorry for the way we have mistreated you.” She was referring to activities like the Westboro Baptist “God Hates Fags” does toward homosexuals.

Wow… this is so …. “Donald Miller” of her!

iggy

31   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 11:53 am

OH OH OH!

i just noticed in her original post, Ingrid referred to Muslims sending “their down syndrome children” as suicide bombers.

that story from a few weeks ago wasn’t true, AS PER THE US MILITARY.

lied to again!

i’m finding the link right now.

Ingrid won’t believe it because it doesn’t fit her preconceived notions, but the rest of you can read.

32   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 5th, 2008 at 11:59 am

Dwayna set up a poster for use at the West Hollywood outreach, “We are sorry for the way we have mistreated you.” She was referring to activities like the Westboro Baptist “God Hates Fags” does toward homosexuals. See
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/2008/01/hindering-gospel-of-our-lord.html

This makes me extraordinarily happy, and I hope to see more like this.

33   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Dwayna set up a poster for use at the West Hollywood outreach, “We are sorry for the way we have mistreated you.” She was referring to activities like the Westboro Baptist “God Hates Fags” does toward homosexuals.

Wow… this is so …. “Donald Miller” of her!

LOL…I’m not sure she knows Donald Miller but she knows Jesus and hence the sign reaching out to the homosexual populance.

35   merry    
March 5th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

“I’m curious what she thinks look like Christ in either of her pieces.”

I’m not sure she realizes that it doesn’t . . . please pray for her. Honestly, I can’t find it my heart to get mad at her for her harsh words . . . I just hurt for her and the people that she may be hurting.

36   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Dwanya did that?

Wow. That’s all “contextualizing” really looks like. Acknowledging the dynamics of your area of ministry.
Very emerging of her… ;)

I think that’s great.

37   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

“…the fringes of Islam are having a violent moment in history…”

Yeah, it’s been going on since the seventh century.

Sura 9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Matthew 5:44 – “”But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…”

38   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

hmmmmm….

considering that Mt. 5 verse, Ray, I have to ask:

Are you in favor of the war?

39   Jeff    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Isn’t the point that such violence is incongruent with anything Jesus or the Apostles taught – while Muslim violence finds it’s support in the Koran, the Hadith, and in the very example set by Mohammad?

40   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

“considering that Mt. 5 verse, Ray, I have to ask:

Are you in favor of the war?”

By “the war”, if you are referring to the present conflict in Iraq, no I’m not.

As far as war in general, my position is pretty similar to that of Greg Boyd, as expressed in his book “Myth of a Christian Nation”, particularly the chapter on Christians and Violence. I don’t buy his “open theism”, but he hits it out of the park with that book.

41   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Thanks for the insight, Ray, into where you’re coming from. =)

42   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Jeff,

It doesn’t matter what Jesus said to people, I know many Christians today who look to the OT for justification of violence–it’s all God’s word, right?

They pay lip service to anti-violence (like with abortion bombings, etc.) but it’s clear they really aren’t bothered by it, they think the war is great, they get angry at the suggestion that the death penalty is problematic at best, they disavow the crusades as “catholic”, etc. etc.

And then these folk level the charge of “syncretism” against the emerging church.

I’ve always said it’s a brilliant move to accuse people of the thing you’re actually guilty of.

43   Timothy Bell    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Dwanya did that?

Wow. That’s all “contextualizing” really looks like. Acknowledging the dynamics of your area of ministry.
Very emerging of her…

I think that’s great.

I’m sure Dwayna did not get the idea of the poster from anything or anyone “Emergent” but from prayerful consideration of how to reach gays who are angry at the Christians. Like she writes:

They are defensive, and it is understandable, because of the self-righteous hatred toward homosexuals from Christians who are sinners with the capacity for just as much depravity apart from God’s grace.

The poster helps with sharing the true Gospel to the homosexuals whom God is drawing to Him.

44   nc    
March 5th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

It was a joke, TB.
Just wisecracking…

A lite way of making the point that I’ve heard criticism of “emerging” types for doing similar things as selling out the gospel….or softening God’s view of sin….

45   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

TIm B…

Yeah, but funny how Dwayana “prayerful consideration of how to reach gays who are angry at the Christians” yet all of us “emerging/emergents” are liberals… because we care… and call for purity across the whole of human sexuality as oopsed ot just those we see as “less” pure than ourselves.

iggy

46   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Sura 9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Matthew 5:44 – “”But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…”

it’s weird to me when a Christian cherrypicks one verse from the Q’uran and one verse from the Bible in order to prove a point.

i’ve read a lot of both books, and let me tell you, the Q’uran does NOT have the market cornered on violence and/or violent commands.

and yes, there are many Christians who use the old testament (and parts of the new!) to justify their “righteous” violence, as if there were such a thing.

another thing occurs to me: Americans, and Christians in particular, dismiss the tactics of terrorism as crazy – that they kill themselves, that they consider themselves “martyrs” – yet at the same time revere the “martyrs” of Christian history.

i find it all weird, personally, but it’s a wee bit hypocritical when it’s cast from one religion with a thing for martyrdom to another religion with a thing for martyrdom.

47   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

“another thing occurs to me: Americans, and Christians in particular, dismiss the tactics of terrorism as crazy – that they kill themselves, that they consider themselves “martyrs” – yet at the same time revere the “martyrs” of Christian history.”

I find it hard to believe that you can’t distinguish between a muslim “martyr” (whose sole purpose is not to evangelize the lost but to slaughter them) and a Christian martyr whose sole purpose is to give their own life (and only their own life) for the sake of the gospel.

48   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

(whose sole purpose is not to evangelize the lost but to slaughter them)

that’s not exactly why they do it. there IS a religious element – they truly believe they’re doing it for Islam. to say that because they don’t want to “evangelize” that their tactics have no other purpose is quite a narrow view. terrorism as a tactic is almost always used by groups that feel marginalized, and in this case, have become radicalized. and really, how is doing something for “The Gospel,” i.e., Christianity, any different from doing something “for Islam.” they’re protesting American troops in their holy lands, they’re protesting Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians…

are their tactics heinous? absolutely.

is there an underlying viewpoint shared across the Muslim world, among the great majority that condemn terrorism? yes. this small group of people just happens to believe terrorism is the answer.

really, it seems a waste from either religion.

49   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

there IS a religious element – they truly believe they’re doing it for Islam.

…and probably citing Sura 9:5 in the process.

and really, how is doing something for “The Gospel,” i.e., Christianity, any different from doing something “for Islam.”

Well, for one thing, Islam is a false religion.

they’re protesting American troops in their holy lands, they’re protesting Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians…

They should find more constructive and civilized ways to “protest”.

is there an underlying viewpoint shared across the Muslim world, among the great majority that condemn terrorism? yes. this small group of people just happens to believe terrorism is the answer.

Polls consistently show that large percentages of the Arab/muslim world see nothing wrong with suicide bombings. I’ll give one example: According to a Public Opinion Marketing Research of Israel (PORI) poll, 79 percent of Palestinians do not consider “bombings of Israeli buses and restaurants to be acts of terrorism”.

50   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

Well, for one thing, Islam is a false religion.

okay, it’s been said, so here i go: THEY SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT YOU.

okay?

perhaps it takes somebody who doesn’t identify with the label “Christian” to point this out, but this is what those of us who are either spiritual, leaning one way or another, agnostic, atheist, or whatever else, can see that others within a religion can’t.

Christians see Judaism and Islam as false religions, Jews don’t even identify with Christians, Muslims think they have the way and others are infidels.

meanwhile, those like me are thinking “wow! all of you need to get over yourselves and learn to coexist!”

They should find more constructive and civilized ways to “protest”.

i said the tactics were abhorrent, but it’s really easy to sit over here as a comfy American and spout off things like that. we’re talking about a part of the world that, for many reasons, is devoid of hope, and all the moralistic grandstanding and pseudo-patriotic home-of-the-free “freedom for everybody!” garbage in the world isn’t going to do one iota to help change the economic situation in that part of the world, and thus help to counteract the spread of radicalism and terrorism.

I’ll give one example: According to a Public Opinion Marketing Research of Israel (PORI) poll, 79 percent of Palestinians do not consider “bombings of Israeli buses and restaurants to be acts of terrorism”.

because one persons’s “terrorist” is always somebody else’s “freedom fighter.”

that’s all.

and if you were a Palestinian who had been walled off from your land, cut off from economic opportunity, starved, and over-reacted at every time you so much as glanced at Israel incorrectly, you might be a little more willing to let things slide. similar polls also show, though, that the majority of Palestinians are moderate and just want peace.

maybe we could get there if our president wasn’t secretly (and disastrously) trying to encourage coups within the Palestinian state, because he didn’t like the results of the election he forced on them.

51   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 5th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

Evan,
I see it clearly. In fact I see that Jesus went and preached to the Jews first then the Pagan (everyone else)

The Muslim will say we have a false religion, yet they affirm almost all the same things… the virgin birth to the return of Jesus to judge the world.

The difference is in our lineage. Christians come from the direct disciples of Jesus, while Muslims come from a type of reformation by Muhammad.

Yet, even if we agree that our “religion” and theirs sees each other as “apostate” does not negate that one is.

iggy

52   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

you’re still falling into the same trap, though.

look, it’s okay to have YOUR beliefs. but you must always recognize that they are just that: yours.

they would make the same exact argument as you’re making.

so the point is that when dealing with intra-religious issues, one must never approach from the viewpoint of “well, MY religion is the true one, but blah blah blah blah blah.”

because that’s all that anyone else hears.

“blah blah blah blah.”

53   RayJr    
March 5th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

I smart enough to see the folly in arguing with a relativist. Last word is yours, Evan.

54   Evan Hurst    
March 5th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

a relativist?

it’s not about a last word…i’m trying to give you some perspective here on how others view Christians.

i never said anyone didn’t have a right to their own deeply-held beliefs.

55   amy    
March 6th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

i never said anyone didn’t have a right to their own deeply-held beliefs.

Okay, then, my deeply held belief is this:

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 NLT

This is what I really and truly and deeply believe. And for me to NOT share that belief with others, through words and actions, would demonstrate that I HATED those who believe differently than I.

Why would I want to withhold truth from those over whom God enables me to weep over?

Why would I desire for anyone – Jew, Muslim, rich, poor, peace-loving Palestinian, terrorist loving Palestinian, loving Jew, full-of-himself Jew, “good” American citizen, on-death-row American citizen, “nice” child of the rich suburbs, street-hardened gangster, in-name-only Christian, agnostic, atheist, – to live apart from the Father?

56   Neil    
March 6th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

“…79 percent of Palestinians do not consider “bombings of Israeli buses and restaurants to be acts of terrorism…”

This says as much about Israel as it does the Palestinians.

57   Neil    
March 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Amy,

Maybe you could help me with how those sentiments fit into the discussion at hand?

Neil

58   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 6th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

I smart enough to see the folly in arguing with a relativist. Last word is yours, Evan.

Not sure who that is…

My point is that even if one is not “religious” that their own view is also skewed with bias.

Yet, opinions are not the same as truth.

iggy

59   Evan Hurst    
March 6th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

Why would I want to withhold truth from those over whom God enables me to weep over?

that’s not what we were talking about. that’s fine. if someone is receptive to you sharing your faith, knock yourself out. i was talking geopolitically about how dangerous it is to approach world affairs, especially those that deal with another religion, from the closed-off standpoint of one’s OWN religious beliefs.

as in “they’re a false religion, so we shouldn’t respect their perspective.”

as in “well, yeah, Jerusalem is the holy city for three religions, but i think Judaism and Islam are crap, so it doesn’t matter what they think.”

for that matter, “i think God gave Israel to the Jews, therefore, here’s the wall i’m building to keep out the brown Muslim people, whose perspective doesn’t matter on this.”

or:
“over here in Amurka, we’re a ‘Christian nation’ and Israel is part of God’s plan, so we should really turn a blind eye to all the heinous thinks Israel has been doing to the Palestinians since 1967 or so, because WE personally believe God signed off on all this.”

it’s two completely different subjects, and one has absolutely no place in the other.

This says as much about Israel as it does the Palestinians.

yeah, really. have you met my friend, “slow, sturdy genocide”?

Yet, opinions are not the same as truth

according to you. other religions say the same thing. that’s why religious considerations have absolutely no place in geopolitical affairs.

60   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 6th, 2008 at 11:20 pm

Evan,
Actually I agree on much you are saying BECAUSE of my Christian faith. Not all agree with the Zionists…

In fact I go by what the bible teaches.

2 Cor 5: 14. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

In Paul’s world there was Jew and Gentile… as a Gentile I would have been a pagan. In fact Gentile simply means “the others”… SO it was seen there was a separation between the chosen Jew and the “Others” or Gentiles.

Yet after the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was no longer this division as we are all now equal… Sin was the leveler, while Cross took sin away and the Resurrection gave us new life… or made us “New Creation(s)”.

So for me there is not Jewish Nation… ( not meaning that it does not exist but that the New Israel is Jesus Christ not a plot of land in the middle east.

There is much more… but for now.

iggy

61   Evan Hurst    
March 6th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

no, I totally see what you mean, and if you’re able to glean that FROM your faith, then that’s a good thing.

too many people glean the exact opposite.