Evan – I appreciate your respectful participation and thoughtful comments. I would suggest, if you haven’t guessed already, that although people like me reject some of the tactics used by my brothers, I believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life and morality either way without Christ is a fraud. If you are gay I do not consider your sin any greater than mine, but I consider Jesus the “scapegoat” for all of our sin.

Nathan – I just cannot believe the complaining that Ingrid does. How can you justify complaining about lost people? How can you “nationalize” your world view at the expense of the “fields” as our Savior put it? As I said on the other thread, those in darkness need the light and those with the light should not complain about darkness.

Getting caught in a traffic jam because of some gay pride parade will never equal what Christ did for us who were every bit as sinful as they are. Can you imagine the missionaries complaining about the sinfulness of those to whom they are sent? The probelm is we don’t see these people as objects of God’s redemptive love, we see them as blockades to enjoying the American dream and in reality many see them as expendable thorns.

And if someone hands them a tract or “gives the gospel” he acts as if that justifies his condemning rhetoric. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, we weep over the price of gasoline.

oh, i definitely understand where you’re coming from, and though i don’t always agree with them, i find your sentiments to be noble.

this is one of those things…in the other thread you were talking about whether Christians should be politically involved. i would suggest that we all have the right to be politically involved, but it’s best to keep faith/religion in one place and refrain from injecting our moral “ideals” into the political conversation, because different ideals just clash with each other and, in the end, none of the actual problems, the political issues at hand, actually get solved. but everybody in the fight is convinced they’re right, by God.

hence: pragmatism in the political sphere.

There are a number of countries that do legislate morality. One good hard look at them at the teacher who was almost put to death for naming a teddy bear the wrong name should be just enough example why we cannot legislate morality.

The list of things that are illegal in countries that legislate morality is long. The punishments harsh and freedom limited.

The reason not to legislate morality is to maintain freedom.

Rick,
Did I correctly gather from paragraph six of your article that you believe homosexuality is a choice people make? This sentence has me very curious, “Because of the media exposure and the approval of that lifestyle the numbers of homosexuals are increasing.”

Do you believe the media and current approval is “causing” more people to choose homosexuality?

J

Thank you for making that more clear for me.

Ingrid says

I’m amazed at those who make the statement that you can’t legislate morality. Someone’s morality is always legislated, the question is always, whose? Right now the morality of the child-killers has been codified into law. We have 50 million dead babies because of this.

So now the church is a legislative body? And since when does God’s grace not use someone even if their methods are somewhat less than Biblibcal? (Wilberforce) I grow tired of the latent idol worship that lifts up men as the standard and not the Scriptures to which these people have given at least systematic allegience.

Martin Luther could not have even qualified as a deacon because of his temper, his drinking, and his rabid anti-semitism; Calvin’s crimes are well documented; and despite the sins of these men they and others are held up as examples of Scripture lived out and that we should interpret the Bible in light of their words and their actions.

I reject all men and embrace the Scriptures, and God has told me and you that no Scripture is of any private interpretation. They can throw Spurgeon, Calvin, Wesley, Wilberforce, MacArthur, Bell, MacLaren, or any other idolic figure and suggest that since they believed and practiced something it must be Scriptural. I reject that method of interpretation as mortally flawed and actually humanistic on some level.

It is time the church receives edification from the gifts of the Spirit through the conduits of earthen vessels, but God forbid we attach ourselves to any man and his views as absolute. Would some of those godly men of old have embraced slavery? No doubt.

Away with legislation forged on the anvil of political leverage, and in essence that is a transparent view into the bankruptcy of the spiritual power of Christ’s body today. The apostles had no such leverage neither did they seek it, and when brought before the governments of their day they neither championed some moral cause nor presented written petitions, no, they preached and embraced their Lord and Savior. That was their glory.

The Greeks invent a humanistic governmental system and call it democracy and the separated church whose eyes should be fixed upon their Master, loose their spiritual chains and go running after that which is one giant revolving door. And Ingrid, do you not believe people are in slavery today? Can you not see the invisible chains all over the world that keep people in bondange to their sin?

And do not think that when slavery was in force anywhere in the world that God’s hands were tied and He could do nothing. God forbid! Perhaps millions of slaves came to Christ in America who might have died lost in Africa. Perhaps Onesimus had never been saved had he been freed before he ran away and met Paul.

So making slavery illegal was s good thing horizontally speaking, but in the invisible and sovereign kingdom of God the Almighty still works his eternal plan regardless of the man made barriers. In 1732 two young Moravian missionaries set sail from Europe to sell themselves into slavery on St. Thomas so they could preach the gospel to the black slaves there who had no witness. They gave their entire lives to these poor slaves and assuradely many have found themselves in God’s presence because of the sacrifice of these godly men.

Do not speak to me of the “bravery” of men who are active politically and claim he has the tenacity of ten men because he has chosen to focus on men’s sins rather than their souls. God knows who His heroes are and we are not in that roll call. The observation about safely sitting behind a computer is the only substantive thing Ingrid had to say about this new and comfortable medium.

The gay community needs people like those two Moravian boys, and in reality there are those nameless servants who minister to them in an interactive way that goes much further than handing out tracts at bath houses. There are many believers both formerly in that lifestyle and those who God has given them a divine calling who hold those dying with AIDS, who eat with those who feel alone, who take in those who have been rejected by that same community, who cry with those gays who are depressed, and who visit them and help them while they are sick. And with those tangible deeds of God’s love they share the loving and saving gospel of Christ and assure each gay man and woman that Christ died for them. Those are God messengers, not the screeching voices of self righteous politics who vomit full throated contempt and that receive verbal accolades from the Christian Wrong (right).

Let us all weep over the grace that has been bestowed upon undeserving swine like ourselves, and weep for the plight of the poor and oppressed, both spiritually, emotionelly, physically, and at the hands and mouths of those who claim a divine mouthpiece from the ivory tower of loveless words.

And while hundreds of thousands of homosexuals are lonely and depressed, while some are contemplating suicide, while many are on a death march with AIDS, and while they are lost and hopeless, let us all beg God that we will not wind up in a traffic jam because of their parade. If that’s Christianity let me be a Hindu!!

Rick,
your wrote: And while hundreds of thousands of homosexuals are lonely and depressed, while some are contemplating suicide, while many are on a death march with AIDS, and while they are lost and hopeless

I would like you to know what I am feeling as I read this. SInce I can’t speak for anybody but me. I want you to know I read this with my eyes rolling. Do you really think every gay person is lonely and depressed and ready to slash their wrists? I do understand that is one of the myths about being gay, but across the board most gays and lesbians are pretty happy, content and normal. Most of us don’t go to pride parades (i don’t) most of us don’t have aids (i have never even had an sti and I am almost 40 years old).

Why such the bleak picture?

Hyper-Arminainism?

What is “hyper” Arminainsism? That Christ dies for all Martians as well? Goofy.

What you mean is the well intentioned misuse of Arimianism that changes the message to accommodate and artificially draw the sinner. There, fixed.

I have listened to many conferences by former gay men who paint a bleak picture but admit there those who assimilate into the culture quite nicely. I believe the suicide and depression statistics show a difference. And it is my opinion that the statistics are incomplete and that still many gay adults and teenagers live in that shadows.

If you are one who is well adjusted and happy then you are fortunate, however, that still does not address your view of Christ and spiritual standing. All of us, gay and straight, will one day die and give an account to God. My life would have condemned me but I no longer will present my life for inspection, I will present Christ’s.

And in the safety of our computer room, Christ is present.

Tim – can you believe that? The entire article and most of the comments are against a Man centered (political) gospel and some still cannot remove the partisan blinders.

Strange…

I missed nothing. The problem is not odms or calvinists,it is this tribute to sophistry that you call a blog.
There are more papists,liberals,pomotypes,charismatic/evangelicals promoting the use of political solutions, than calvinists
If you want to see an end to sinful lifestyles, preach the Gospel.
I also stick to the use of the term hyper arminianism.
BTW Arminius is no one we should be following or admiring.
Your legalistic theology of relationship building,doing good deeds etc does not save men. It is a gospel that brings all attention to you, not Christ.
It is based on works,and is more in line with the roman catholic church than anything.

Shammah,
What an incredible opportunity for you. You have discerned all of our ills and problems. Now, you can pray diligently for us. I mean after all, you are striving to follow the Bible, right?

shammah ben agee said:

Your legalistic theology of relationship building,doing good deeds etc does not save men.

James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. 

Romans 12:17-18

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 

Poor, James and Paul, so mired in legalistic theology. Someone should’ve really set them straight.

Shammah ben agee offers yet another demonstration that ODMs have no ability to understand anyone who isn’t an ODM.

Well, The good news is that we can rip Galatians 2:10 out of the Bible. It says,

All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

back to the idea that most gays are depressed/whatever else:

1. “former” gays do not an accurate sampling make. also, i would suggest that former “former gays” tend to be some of the happiest.
2. the depression, or even suicidal tendencies that some experience are usually a direct result of “this is me vs. this is how society/my parents/my church views me – as less than human.” it’s a chicken-egg situation until one realizes that it’s really not.
3. add me to the list of “never been to a pride parade, never had an STD” as well. i’m almost 30.

i think that a mistake some people make re: gay people is to assume that most of us are crying out for help in some way, when, in actuality, we’re just going about our lives.

*shrug*

shammah,
I am really confused to what you are even arguing with us about, really. We are the ones saying that it’s futile to expect to legislate moral issues, or expect politics to bring about true spiritual change. Saying that does not mean that we should just sit on our hands, though.

I was pointing out that the New Testament directs Christians to do good works – to help the poor, to feed the hungry, etc. It is not just an “extra” part of the Gospel – it is an essential part of it. We aren’t just told to bless Christians, we are told bless everyone. The Gospel is proclaiming Jesus is Lord of creation, and His Kingdom has been inaugurated, and it will be fully realized at His return.

Helping people, doing good, etc., are in a sense prophetic acts that point to the fully realized Kingdom where Creation where be renewed, God will wipe every tear away, and evil and death will breathe their last.

Nathan,

Thanks for clarifying. It might be a semantic issue on my part that I don’t see the connection between that verse of Scripture and your statement. But I’ll agree to leave it alone.

Thanks again,
jerry

PS–I don’t think we can change the world.

PS–I don’t think we can change the world.

We can’t but Obama can! Yes we can!! Yes we can!!

I love election years. The pageantry, the shwashbuckling speeches, the attacks, the bravado, obscene amounts of money, the flip-flops, the lies, the innuendos, the entire thing is a voyeur’s dream!

The strategies, the counter-punches, the hypocrisy, the championing of the poor, the resume padding, the scandals, all of it is so professional wrestling-esque, entertaining but not real.

The debates, the families, the mulitple wives, the affairs, the denials, the backroom deals, the smoke-filled rooms, the photo-opts, and the appearances on Saturday Night Live.

Even the primaries have morphed into great fanfare and a legitimate spectator sport! And when you don’t have a dog in this fight you can root for the most detestible, hateful, and vicious verbal mud wrestling imaginable.

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

I think the script reads “things will get worse and worse.

Nope. There’s no script.

Shammah,

BTW Arminius is no one we should be following or admiring.

This shows you lack of understanding of Arminius… as he agreed with Calvin on almost every point except for Calvin’s “certainty”. Much that is attributed to Arminianism was not what Arminius actually taught… just as much that many Calvinist push (the immortality of man/the focus on predestination) was not what Calvin taught or was as focused on.

Before you make you assertions, maybe take a little church history… Covnenatn Theological Seminary has some really good free courses that you can take. The history teacher, David Calhoun is a Calvinist, yet I see his teaching as pretty balanced and fair to those he even disagrees with.

Really, some historical perspective helps…

iggy

Phil,

It is not fatalism. It is reality. The world is not going to get better all the time–regardless of how many people you feed, or how much Gospel you preach. The world will continue to get worse, and worse, and worse. Have you read Revelation? Or the daily paper? Or your horoscope?

Look, I think that the Gospel has made a lot inroads in our world. I think the Kingdom has been breaking out since Jesus walked on earth. I think the disciples turned the world upside down–but we are far removed from them, their theology, and their point of view. I think the Gospel is great news for those whom it saves, but I think all in all, the Bible is a terribly depressing report about the state of the world and the final reality of those not saved.

Rick–with all due respect, I don’t understand where you are coming from or what you are saying. I cannot tell if you are being serious or sarcastic or what.

Nathan,

I understand well what you are saying, I just don’t agree with it. I’m not naive or smart enough to think that my blog, which is blessed to have 100-200 page views a day (out of the 5 billion inhabitants of earth), is making the difference in anyone’s life. It is a hobby that I’m not really very good at. More often than not, I simply irritate people who hold to views that are different from my own. I don’t think the world is being saved because of blogs. In fact, the world my be even worse because of blogs. (Some of them anyhow, )

You know what, before I can ever hope that I can even think about being used by God to make even a ripple in this cess-pool I have to change myself. I have been preaching in a local church for 12 years. I’m not fatalistic; I am realistic.

When I say it is a semantic difference I mean this. I am not interested in changing the world. I am interested in glorifiying God (1 Peter 2:1-5, 9-10). God will certainly use some people to change the world, but not most or many. Then again, ‘impact’ is a cheap word isn’t it?

Remember the very first ever episode of Star Wars? Episode IV: A New Hope? At the end, Luke had to destroy the Death Star with proton torpedos. He flew into the trench and is pummeled by tie-fighters, and cannons, and his nerves. He fires the first torpedo and it misses the exhaust port. He was relying on the telescoping device, and all kinds of gadgets, and gizmos–all sorts of technology. He misses and says, “No, It only impacted on the surface.”

With his second trip down the trench, he turned off all the gizmos and relied soley on the George Lucas version of God, the Force, and he nailed it! The torpedos went into the exhaust port and the Death Star exploded. Surface impacts have very little effect on this world that we live in–and at least to Lucas, they don’t defeat evil. That is the reality of things.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m skeptical. Maybe I’m cynical. But I’m not certain exactly what sort of changes in this world you think are happening, but I don’t see them. People still get sick. People still die. And the kids I work with for 2.5 hours a day, 5 days per week? Well, they still have divorced parents. Abusive parents. Jailed parents. The kids still do drugs. Sill have sex. They still steal milk when they can. They talk like liberal democrats ( ). They fight. They are vulgar. They are still being taught to deny Christ and affirm Darwin. What does it mean when 6th and 7th graders already ‘know’ they are homosexuals? Seriously? What the hell does that mean? Their parents send them to school without money for lunch or without lunch.

Change. Pshaw! This world isn’t going to change until the day when Christ returns. Sorry to ruin an otherwise wonderful reputation among you folks who have been so kind to my opposing point of view, but I just don’t see a better world being our main ambition. It’s more like survival for an idea that is passing quickly and being persecuted often. “Welcome to the real world, Neo.” Who will rescue us? Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ. I think Jesus is the only one who is going to change anything, and frankly, He is become scarcer and scarcer in the church, let alone the world we hope to change.

Auf Wiedersehen!
jerry

I have enjoyed reading this thread and feel sad that so many feel that the world cannot be changed. As a certified nonviolence trainer, I have seen the evidence the world can be changed.

Gandhi, one man manged to convince 300,000 Indians to use nonviolent means to free themselves from British rule.

The current population of the world is roughly 6 billion people.

So, how many Gandhi’s would we need to start taking a stand to create peace you ask? well do the math…..

6 billion divided by 300,000?

Then we move on to King.

One man managed to motivated an entire city to walk miles, carpool at the danger of jail, and taxi their way around just to protest the injustice not of segregated buses. The Montgomery Improvement Association was not boycotting the buses to desegregate them, they simply asked for a more dignified way to get on and off the bus. In the end, they got more then they asked for.

One man, led them in that movement.

One person can change the world…..I have seen it!

Jerry,
You bring up a good point that for me were parts of the last straw in my beliefs. I struggled with the idea of seeing the world in such dark ways. “What is Freedom form British rule without Christ?” is a tough question. I feel pain when I hear it. Millions of people in the world have never heard of Christ and their lives are just as beautiful and amazing as could be. Just the fact we are here at all is amazing to me.

There are billions and billion of galaxies in the Universe and here we are alive and breathing. That is all the change I need to be amazed and happy. The world isn’t the fallen world you see, it is an amazing place of endless wonders.

I am sad at what I see in the middle east. The death and destruction and loss of life over how to worship god is painful to watch. I am sad at the pollution, sad at the murder, very angry with the gun violence that is glorified on tv and movies. I feel pain every time I see another young one take a gun to school and start shooting.

Past the downfalls the world is just like a growing tree, as the dead leaves fall new ones are right behind them keeping them beautiful.

This fits:

Once a man was walking along a beach. The sun was shining and it was a beautiful day. Off in the distance he could see a person going back and forth between the surf’s edge and and the beach. Back and forth this person went. As the man approached he could see that there were hundreds of starfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide.

The man was stuck by the the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many starfish. Many of them were sure to perish. As he approached the person continued the task of picking up starfish one by one and throwing them into the surf.

As he came up to the person he said, “You must be crazy. There are thousands of miles of beach covered with starfish. You can’t possibly make a difference.” The person looked at the man. He then stooped down and pick up one more starfish and threw it back into the ocean. He turned back to the man and said, “It sure made a difference to that one!”

http://www.cedu.niu.edu/~fulmer/starfish.htm

Starfish are people, too.

Early in Gandhi’s schooling in England, friends tried desperately to convert him to Christianity from being a Hindu. The deciding factor for a young Gandhi was the bible’s words about man having dominion over animals (hindu’s are vegan). THis was not tolerable to Gandhi, but he did form his movement later called Satyagraha after the Sermon on the Mount.

When ask about his religion, Gandhi stated, “I am a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, I don’t care what you call him, I only seek to see the face of God”

Joe,

One more thought. You wrote: “When ask about his religion, Gandhi stated, “I am a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, I don’t care what you call him, I only seek to see the face of God”

That was exactly Ghandi’s problem. Period.

jerry

He may have left behind a personal legacy, but he did not leave behind hope for anyone. A man’s life is not the sum of his remembered aphorisms. (I haven’t figured out King yet.)

He left hope for me, and I am someone!

It is interesting to me these pet sins. Jerry says Ghandi’s problem is that he refused a title and only soughy God. Ingrid hates gay people and God tells us He hates divorce. Isn’t Ingrid divorced? Makes me wonder why she doesn’t want to outlaw that. Why not March against that?

who says sincerely seeking God requires making a definitive decision?

some of us feel that that’s putting God in a box.

and i understand that we in the US might have a different perspective on this, but i think the phrase “rejecting Christ” is a little bit harsh when you’re talking about someone from a culture that’s predominantly of a different faith.

look. consider how you’d feel if some Muslim missionary knocked on your door and started witnessing to you about their faith, in this country where 78% identify as Christian.

Joe B,

“Millions of people in the world have never heard of Christ and their lives are just as beautiful and amazing as could be.”

That may be true, but life is very short, no matter how beautiful and amazing. But what will happen to them after they die? Seriously, have you ever thought about what will happen to you, to your soul, after you die? It’s a hard question, but it’s an important one. All of us only have a few decades to live.

“There are billions and billion of galaxies in the Universe . . . The world isn’t the fallen world you see, it is an amazing place of endless wonders.”

God is an amazing God; when we look around us at the world, and at pictures of space, etc, how can we not believe in God? I really think it takes more faith to believe that there isn’t a God. And He has said that this earth will pass away, and He will make a new one, a perfect one–why would anyone want to settle for this broken one, with it’s broken, hurting people? I may view the world in a dark way, but it’s the hope I have in Christ that allows me to see light. I wish for every broken, hurting person to have the same hope as well.

Joe – the difference is that the gay community wants to make their lifestyle as “God given” and some are aggressive and organized. The divorce population is not organized and usually doesn’t suggest legislation about it.

But, as you and I have contended, it is not up to the church to take a stand against sin in the secular community, God has already made it clear that Christ came not to condemn because we all were already condemned. I do not understand that in the “total depravity” camp that are adamant about lost people being absolutely dead in their sins.

How do you comdemn people who are dead in their sins for behaving in a way consistent with the theology some espouse? I mean the irony and doctrinal schizophrenia about the lost is striking. How do you hold a dead man’s feet to the fire concerning his sin? And is it just me or do some believer’s use their presentation of the gospel to these people as a scapegoat for their condemnation so that no one can accuse them of not sharing the gospel? It’s like they cover their tracks but their words of condemnation carry much more zeal than their words of redemption.

If I was gay and I heard a Christian say God’s wrath is upon me because I was gay and that America should treat me differently than others, I would have a hard time listening to anything about their Jesus. But that’s just me.

The entire mess begins with an unscriptural meshing of the church with America and believing that this nation was birthed upon “sacred foundations” (Ingrid). This nation killed thousands of people because we refused to pay English taxes. Please, someone show me in the New Testament where that would even come close to being God’s will. But let us not condemn the early patriots because they were only doing what people do in this world, but please do not suggest that God was so against people paying taxes and so “American” that He led those same patriots to violently overthrow their government.

Even if England had forbidden the exercise of worship, and even if England had outlawed Christianity, and even had they doubled all the taxes, the church still could not claim that the Heavenly Father desired the church to commit violence against that same government. It goes against every teaching in the New Testament but because we were endoctrinated nationalistically at an early age, even in Christian schools, we cannot see that distinction.

You amaze me sometimes Rick, this time in a good way. .

Although I will say changes in law to allow divorce more easily could be easily compared to the current push for changes in marriage law. The only difference is they passed easily and without comment from the church.

Let me make an observation here that will bring into greater focus what is happening here. At one time the Roman Catholic Church became the government as well as the church. And it used military might to defend and to conquer. So those who wish to hitch their eccesiastical wagons to the American government are in essence mirroring what the Roman Church once did.

They are constructing a Protestant version of the Roman Catholic Church when they beg/manipulate/petition/ the secular government to act on the church’s behalf, as well as when they claim that America was a Christian nation as was Rome a Catholic nation. We are the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, living and breathing and with reconciliation as our divine ministry.

Remove your eyes off Washington and set Christ ever before you. Fret not about what men may do and trust only the Lord your God. He never sleeps nor slumbers and gives power to the weak.

Some will trust in chariots and some will trust in horses and some will trust in laws, but we will trust in the Name of the Lord our God. His wings bring healing and His voice redemption. His offer is forgivenss and His power is grace. His warnings are strong but His mercy is everlasting. His dwellingplace is on the Father’s right hand and His commission is good news. His sacrifice was the cross and His victory was the resurrection. His death is our life and our death is His life.

He meets in sacred prayer closets not in congressional chambers. And as He sees all the wickedness and sin, the rebellion and perversion, the fallen lostness of Adam’s race who raise their hand against their very Creator, as He sees all of this He says………….Come….. unto Me…..all ye that labor……and are heavy laden……and I will give you rest.

Halleluiah, what a Savior!!

Rick, sorry, but perhaps you misunderstood what I said. Do you think it is cruel to expect people to give up companionship and/or loving relationships if they are gay? I am interested in you thought and feelings. I am not looking for scripture or dogma. I want your feelings and thoughts about how we should treat people who are gay.

Joe,

Please take this as not meaning to offend…

Sin comes in many forms. Many people are predisposed toward different sins in the form of addictions. Be that the Native American towards alcoholism and people towards drugs and even sex be it porn, fornication or homosexuality.

Man was made to be dependant. So, if one does not have God to be dependant on (and even when one does at times) we will tend toward “something” to replace God.

This can be anything… and even “good” things… but these things cannot in and of themselves change us.

I see sex like a drug or alcohol. There are some good things about drugs in the form of medicines and some good things about alcohol, but abused and/or misused can become very bad soon.

Now, i am as hard with my opinion on homosexuality as i am with heterosexuality when someone commits adultery or fornicates or abuses a spouse… there are many things that can make a marriage not a marriage… so just being hetero and married does not (at least to me) mean it is “good” or “right” or “God ordained” even.

But, as I stated, anything that is used to replace God, be that even a hetero or gay relationship… is wrong.

Saying all that, God wants what is best for us… to give us what is beyond our own ability to get. He has a perfect will and wants us to live according to His plan.

This is not some pie in the sky everything will be cotton candy plan, it might even be harder than whatever you are into now… but the core of it all will be, Christ in you, your only hope of Glory.

Without Christ Jesus there is no hope for anything. With Christ this is always hope.

I pray that you see this as not an attack against gays… as I see that to leave anyone in sin is a sin in and of itself. I only hope to encourage you to consider Jesus and His way if you have not already.

Atheism is not about “not believing in God” but in that one does not see proof… yet I challenge you to earnestly seek God and He will reveal Himself to you.

We all struggle with different sins.. but Jesus has taken away our sins and has given His Spirit to us to live His Life and to have Him Live His Life in and through us.

Be blessed,
iggy

Ps. to Iggy…Atheism is about not believing in god, plain and simple. For some it could be lack of proof for other it could be something else. Either way, I do not believe in god. If I didn’t maybe begin to believe in some probability that god exists, I would be hard pressed to believe in a personal god that is involved in day to day of all the creatures on all of the planets in all of the galaxies,etc…then to go past that, I would really have a hard time believing that any of the known life forms so far have found any remote evidence that their god is the right god. Beyond that, narrowing it down even further which has taken decades for me to do….I am 100% sure that if there is a god, it is not the Abrahamic God commonly known to Jews, Christians and Muslims. I am 100% sure it is not any of the many hindu gods, and I am 100% it is not John Frum.

While I respect others beliefs, I am deeply saddened at the result of those beliefs in the world today.

Joe,

Atheism as defined is because there is not enough scientific proof to know whether a “god” exists then one chooses to not believe… that is the definition I get when I am debating in Atheist sites. There are different types of atheism as there is weak and strong… so i am not sure which you are, but most just say that since they do not see any evidence they do not believe, but then say that if evidence is given they would believe… (though I have found that not such the case)
It is not that one does not believe in a “god” but that one does not see enough evidence to believe in a “god”.

Agnosticism is seeing that there is no proof whether a god exists so since it cannot be proven, believes that no god exists.

Now, the answer to your question is that yes, I see homosexuality just as i see all sin.

Forgiven.

How do you know that what is best for you is to abstain or not? Or, what if given the renewing of the mind as the bible teaches you find that your are attracted to the opposite sex after all? I am not garenteeing it… but I have seen it… in fact I ahve seen some come out of the gay lifestyle and be totally free and love their new life in Christ as a heterosexual after years and years of being in the gay lifestyle.

So, again, to answer your question… yes I see all sin the same way…

Forgiven and replaced with the opportunity for a new life in Christ Jesus that is more abundant and healthy… as long as one seeks God’s best.

Blessings,
iggy

and most certainly any that claim the earth is only 10,000 years old.

Actually 10,265 years old.

=)

Actually as I have posted before it is both 15 million years old and 5759 years old…

= )

iggy

Joe,

For what its worth… don’t let sexual identity be they reason you choose not to pursue God. And most definitely do not other “Christians” behavior persuade you not to look into the claims of Jesus.

Just for some fun since you are into science and “proof” Josh McDowel has a few books called “Evidence demand a verdict” that might give some answer…

Also, I just ask to be open… listen also with your heart not just your head.

Be blessed,
iggy

For what its worth… don’t let sexual identity be they reason you choose not to pursue God.

I covered this already Iggy. Please do not think I am so shallow in my thinking that my sexual identity would influence my thoughts on a creator of the entire universe. Such an assertion is very insulting.

Joe,

Again I was not meaning to be insulting… nor put you down in any way… just hoped to give you some things to thing about…

Again, I know some who come from exactly where you are… and come to faith and saw a wholeness they never thought they even needed or conceived.

Be blessed,
iggy