American Jesus
Posted by Matt B on Feb 19th, 2008
2008
Feb 19
If one is to believe this article, we’d have to accept some certain facts, like:
1. God loves the United States more than any other country
2. Jesus was a capitalist
3. Rob Bell is a marxist
4. We might consume a very good chunk of the world’s resources (although that’s not necessarily true)
5. The ends justify the means
6. Global poverty comes from people being too lazy to work
7. The United States was a blessing to the Africans we bought, sold and used as slaves
The list goes on and on. What more can I say, other then the article is a total piece of trash. It just seems fitting that it would have CRN’s blessing.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:37 am
You forgot that Jesus also drove an SUV and was a member of the NRA…
February 19th, 2008 at 10:44 am
A good post, Matt. I tend to have a similar view as Bell even though I disagree on other issues. The Republican, American caricature of Christianity is rupgnaqnt and unscriptural. We should have “no opinion” as to what America does while still praying for the leaders and being salt in the society.
Placing politics in any spiritual setting is to pound a round peg into NO hole!
February 19th, 2008 at 11:26 am
“If we had the same standard of living as the Islamic-controlled nations of the world, this world would be a much darker place indeed.”
Wow. See how money poisons everything? And how does the author deal with Bell’s words? By implying he is a hypocrite because of some large donor to his ministry. That is prideful and disingenuous and doesn’t deal with what Bell actually said.
From most accounts Rob Bell lives moderately and is interested in helping the poor. So why do some have to deny him the positives while still being strong in their disagreements? I call that dishonesty. When I suggested that MacLaren was a nice and somewhat humble guy my ODM card was recalled.
The worst part is that they misrepresent our Lord.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am
From the article:
This quote reveals quite a bit, actually. When we are more concerned about the American church than the church universal (dare I say catholic, lol), something is wrong.
The average church-going family in the US spends more than 95% of its income on itself. Meanwhile, I hear stories of pastors in China and Africa literally going hungry to buy medicine for people in their churches.
I’m not saying we need put people on a guilt trip or anything for having nice things. I’m just saying that we could be doing a lot more than we are, and that on the whole Americans are pretty selfish and addicted to stuff. It’s exactly what Jesus wants us to deal with. Where our treasures are, there are our hearts.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
The Lord has used Mr. Bell in many ways to begin to crumble my self-made strongholds. I praise the Lord for him.
Do I agree fully with EVERYTHING he says. Nope.
Nor do I agree with everything you guys post in your articles here. But I keep coming back.
The Lord is stretching me and teaching me through Rob’s teachings, and it often begins with questioning things that I “know” to be true.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Phil,
I agree that the quote you posted states a lot… theologically it is man centered… it is all about me and my rights as a citizen… and my man made institutions….
Very telling…. indeed.
I pray that the “American” church does crumble and we return to Christ Jesus and His church.
iggy
February 19th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I’d much rather my church look like Mars Hill than this one in NY, and somehow I don’t think my discernment makes me more “Marxist” or “Capitalist”…
Sadly, too many Christians are much happier spending their time with theory and too little time in practice, with the primay focus being a time an place over which they have no control, rather than what happens here and now.
If we trust God and walk with Him here and now, we must believe that He will take care of us there and then…
February 19th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Thank God I haven’t had to give up my jet, only cut back on fuel!
February 19th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
That’s why my church invested in a hybrid jet!
February 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
BTW Chris L., that church is not in New York but Minnesota. Nice research…
February 19th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Wow, Matt B, you got those 7 conclusions from that article…how?
For example.
–1. God loves the United States more than any other country–
Now, where in that article does he say that? Or even come close to saying that? Does he say that America has been blessed? Yes. Does he say that America has been generous? Yes.
Does he at any point say that God loves the US more then any other place? Don’t see it.
All I see here is someone taking an article, and jumping to some incredible and ridiculous conclusions from it.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
“God loves the United States more than any other country–”
Jazz - that is pervasive in the American church both subliminally and overtly. Prove God blesses America. Totally subjective usually centered on money and lifestyle.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Perhaps when you talk about jumping to ridiculous conclusions you’re talking about the orginal author’s conclusion that Rob Bell is a Marxist because he questions American consumerism. Talk about jumping to a conclusion.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
–Prove God blesses America.–
Prove it??? Heck, I got the right reverend Bell himself saying in his NOOMA video “Rich” that “I keep seeing this bumper sticker that popular where I live, that says “God bless America”. Every time I see one I think ‘God has’. God had blessed America.”
–Totally subjective usually centered on money and lifestyle.–
Isn’t that like athiests saying you can’t use miracles to prove there is a god?
–Jazz - that is pervasive in the American church both subliminally and overtly.–
I have my doubts about that, but even so, that wasn’t the contention in the OP.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Rob Bell is a Marxist. Harpo is his favorite.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
–Perhaps when you talk about jumping to ridiculous conclusions you’re talking about the orginal author’s conclusion that Rob Bell is a Marxist because he questions American consumerism.–
Nope, that wasn’t what I was talking about.
Concerning Bell and Marx, he does say this–
“Karl Marx would love Mars Hill and the warped philosophy of Mr. Bell, for it was Marx who stated: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”"
–noting a similarity, and I would dare say a notable one, yes. Now, does noting that similarity mean he’s saying Bell is a Marxist? A bit of a stretch.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I do not believe God bless secular governments and nations, just His people hence Israel. God has used America as a springboard for evangelical missions, but at the same time many major cults have been spawned here.
Pornography, drugs, child abuse, hedonism, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things have sprung up in America. We are not Americans who happen to be Christians, we are Christians who happen to live in America.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
–Rob Bell is a Marxist. Harpo is his favorite.–
If that’s so, then why does he wear Groucho-like glasses.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
–I do not believe God bless secular governments and nations, just His people hence Israel.–
Then I’m suppose to prove to you that God blesses something that you be definite contend God cannot bless? Then there is nothing to talk about.
–Pornography, drugs, child abuse, hedonism, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things have sprung up in America.–
Yeah, those things were unheard of before the US was founded. No other nations have had problems with them, I’m sure, before we polluted them with those sins.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
No Jazz, many others secular nations have them also. Hence, no divine “blessing” (whatever that is as defined in a nationistic context)
February 19th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Jazz - I will amend my statement to reflect that Goes will bless a nation (its people) through his church (his people). So in that light America has been blessed (affected) not by lifestyle etc., but by the gospel.
February 19th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
That’s what I get for drive-by posting…
February 19th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I could write a post about the similarities between Ingrid and Hitler. I’d come pretty close to the truth. It doesn’t mean it should be done.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
–I could write a post about the similarities between Ingrid and Hitler. I’d come pretty close to the truth. It doesn’t mean it should be done.–
What truth? Are you seriously even implying that Ingrid is like Hitler?
If a person takes Bell’s words and see similarities between them and Marx, why is it wrong to point that out?
February 19th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I have proof that Ingrid is racist. Like Hitler.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
“If a person takes Bell’s words and see similarities between them and Marx, why is it wrong to point that out? ”
Because it reflects outrageous hyberbole because Marx was an atheist which reflects an inconruous connotation between them. Paul said remember the poor and so did Manson, would that be appropriate to make a connection?
Jesus aid do not store up for yourselves traesures here on earth, sound like Gandhi to me. See, it is unfair, just as unfair to suggest Ingrid was like Hitler. Obviously Matt you do not know Hitler very well and he is used most of all for hyperbolic purposes. Ingrid is a faithful wife, caring mother, a born again Christian, and has many other good attributes. It is beyond bad taste to suggest, even though some of her speech is questionable, that she is in any way like Adolf Hitler.
We as believers should avoid these mindless comparisons that are actually used to lash out rather than calmly present our view of a person’s teachings. Similarities to liberal theologians may be in bounds, but Marx and Hitler?
Next it will be Aton LaVey.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Jazz,
First of all, to say that “Karl Marx would love Mars Hill” shows that the person that wrote this statement is ignorant of both Marx and Bell. Perhaps this person thinks Karl Marx would love the early church as well, considering they pooled their resources for the sake of the community.
The fact is that Karl Marx hated Christianity. All Marxist regimes throughout history have tried to crush Christianity. To try to tie Bell to Marx is just plain and utter stupidity.
I pretty much have a strong dislike of any type of governmental wealth redistribution, but I think that many times American Christians have let themselves be defined as Americans first and Christians second. We have been blessed, and we have done a lot of good in the world. But we have also done a lot that’s not so good. The amazing thing to me is that some Christians are quicker to defend America than they are to defend their brothers and sisters in Christ.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
“The amazing thing to me is that some Christians are quicker to defend America than they are to defend their brothers and sisters in Christ. ”
You read my book, Phil, I’ll autograph it if you like!
February 19th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
1. Jesus is not an American, nor is He a citizen of any other country.
2. This post is a pile of rhetorical droppings.
The article said nothing that you claim it did. You either miss, or purposely ignore the point. While you guys gush over Bell, I’ll preach the gospel.
For the record,I have never believed or preached a nationalistic Christ.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Rick
how do you defend liars?
February 21st, 2008 at 7:29 am
–Because it reflects outrageous hyberbole because Marx was an atheist which reflects an inconruous connotation between them.–
–To try to tie Bell to Marx is just plain and utter stupidity.–
I read this, in McLaren little missive “The Secret Message of Jesus”, p. 84…
“No, too often, Karl Marx was right: we used religion as a drug so we could tolerate the abysmal conditions of a world that is not the kingdom of God”.
Now, does the fact that McLaren agrees with one idea of Marx’s mean that he agrees with him on all things? No, and it would be a serious stretch of logic to say otherwise.
As well, the writer on the blog is not saying that Marx would agree with Bell on all things, but that Bell’s rhetoric is the kind of things one would get from Marx.
February 21st, 2008 at 7:36 am
Chris P., where I am defending liars?
Jazz - It would be much more appropriate to observe that Bell sounds like MacLaren than Marx.
February 21st, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Words of Wisdom from Wodehouse
“Mike and Psmith”, ch. 3
“I am with you, Comrade Jackson. You won’t mind my calling you Comrade, will you? I’ve just become a socialist. It’s a great scheme. You ought to be one. You work for the equal distribution of property, and start by collaring all you can and sitting on it.”
February 21st, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Jazz,
Words of wisdom from God.
Acts 2: 41. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
42. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles.
44. All the believers were together and had everything in common.
45. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
46. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47. praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 4: 34. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35. and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
There is a difference between Marxism and the bible as it speaks of how we as Christians should live and should be a part at spreading the Gospel. Marxism is about dehumanizing people for the common good, Biblical teaching is loving people for the common good. I see Rob teaching that and having nothing to do with Marxism at all.
iggy
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Thanks! Your link to my article on Rob Bell gave me a new daily record for page views!
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Rather a dubious honor, I suppose, since it was a link contradicting the falsehoods you’ve espoused…
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:34 pm
wow…
that article really is kinda nuts, isn’t it?
i mean, if we study the past several decades, we’ll see that the TACTIC of terrorism does tend to be employed by groups that feel marginalized for one reason or another, and if you talk to any non-American (like, 95% of the world’s population), you’d find that not everybody has the glowing opinion of the US that we indoctrinate our children with…
so, maybe it IS worthwhile to ask the question “is it possible that Jesus’s favoritist country in the whole wide world isn’t always perfect and do any of our ‘enemies’ have a legitimate gripe with us? or should we keep pretending we’re beyond reproach…”
and it is correct that, as in the case of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, regular people are less likely to condemn terrorism when they’ve been shut off from basic things like food, clean water, opportunity, and hope.