Let’s Talk About Sex
I wonder what specific marital issues Luther had to deal with that it took up so much of his time?
I recommend reading the whole page (shouldn’t take long).
Maybe if we were willing to talk, teach, and preach about these issues (i.e. sex) that so impact the people of God and our world both for married couples and individuals, we wouldn’t see so many people waiting until the pain and embarrassment of the problem is greater than the pain and embarrassment of seeking help.
*Update: I found this from “Pastor: the Theology and Practice of Ordained Ministry” by William H. Willimon and thought it apt.
“Christianity tends to see most things that the world regards as private, as intensely public. For us, sex is not a private matter. Sex is a public responsibility, intertwined with politics, something to be engaged in for the common good, not merely for individual satisfaction. We do not believe in sex apart from the public promises and social commitments that make sex inteeresting. Let us not forget how curious it is for the church to take an act so carnal as coitus and insist that before a couple become ‘one flesh,’ they have a wedding in order to talk about it in front of God and the whole church.
For example, in the middle of advice concerning congregational squabbles in the first church of Corinth, Paul wades into the intimacies of marriage. ‘For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does’ (1 Cor. 7:4) is just the sort of thing one would expect from a first-century male. Then Paul adds, ‘likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does,’ something we would not expect to hear. Then Paul gets quite specific about what husbands and wives ought to expect from one another for sex in marriage, no matter that this epistle will be read in front of the whole church.” (p. 107, emphasis mine.)
February 16th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I agree with the article and have seen it. I think most adults have problems with admitting they aren’t perfect- it goes back to joe’s article and carrying each other’s burdens (at least that’s where my mind goes.) That’s why I like working with high schoolers… they have no problem admitting they are screwed up!
Tim and I were in a small group at our old church about marriage. It was really helpful. People were more willing in a small group setting to admit their struggles with their relationships.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Wow…
Luther did not demand that engaged couples refrain from sex as he considered they had already made a life long commitment…
Condoning unmarried and premarital sex… scandalous! He was soooooo emergent….. (not that I know of any that condone any of that…)
iggy
February 16th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Okay, you both lost me…and I wrote the post.
Mandy, it’s actually a book that is linked. You’ve seen that? I’m just surprised if you have (but your comments still make sense in that light). If you haven’t seen/read it, then you lost me on the first part.
Iggy, I am unfamiliar with that. Do you have any links for quotes or references?
February 16th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
i meant I’ve seen the situation. I kept reading the pages though. interesting.
February 16th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
“Ooooooooh, SideSHOW Bob!” - Homer Simpson
Yeah, it was pretty much the first page that is important to my post, but the rest is kind of interesting.
February 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am
Yes, if you go here, and read about 20 pages you will see it… look for all the “Luther” highlights page 86 I believe.
iggy
February 17th, 2008 at 12:35 am
oops I meant 10 pages…
igs
February 17th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I saw the “Luther highlights,” but no source for the citation.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack. Of all the voluminous works of Luther (or others) we cull outsome references to sex and claim his historical authority.
One of the reasons the New Testament says “the marriage bed is undefiled” and with that being the totally of its teaching is because we are not supposed to compare ourselves with our selves. It invites envy and evil surmise and discontentment when people think that others have better and more frequent physical intimacies.
There are a God given range of parameters which are no one’s business but the partners. All the “teachings” on performance, frequency, methods, etc., are conjecture gleaned from personal experience and the assumed experiences of others. These experiences are not the standard for anyone else.
If you are married you are allowed to have it and enjoy it.
End of story.
February 17th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Keith,
page 86 under the “sexual intercourse” heading… second bullet point.
it is there…
iggy
February 17th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
do these churches talk about frequency, methods, and performance (i mean besides have it for 30 days.) just wondering. i haven’t really listened to any sermons on the subject besides one that tim gave (with my parents in the audience)
February 17th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Rick, frequency was an issue according to Paul. I wasn’t quoting Luther as an authority, I was quoting him as a sign that the problem has existed for awhile. In fact, the quote I referenced didn’t itself provide a solution.
I’m begging questions with this post. And I think the Willimon quote is extremely important and completely unadressed so far in the comments.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
“Christianity tends to see most things that the world regards as private, as intensely public. For us, sex is not a private matter. ”
Excellent quote, more reasons as to why homosexuality is not a “personal preference” nor is it ok to do whatever one wants to do in the “privacy” of their own bedroom.
Call sin what it is. Keep saying that it’s sin, keep the laws on the books that call it sin and anyone who says that it’s their “private” matter can rest assured that it’s not! It is very much a public matter.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
It is my experience as a pastor that the overwhelming majority of couples that have problems in this srea turned out to be a spiritual problem rather than a physical or informational probelm. Many times the problem was overworking causing tiredness, watching too much television, and other practical issues that uncovered a spiritual problem.
When I would ask the couple if they prayed together 98% of the time they did not. Do you spend time together in the Word? 98% said no. As a matter of fact most did not have a persoanl devotion life of any consequence. Now after rectifying that proble there remains a sexual issue, I would recommend them to a Christian counsellor who I considered reliable.
However, it is also my experience that the minority of couples that elevated their personal and collective spiritual lives either experienced a renewal in the physical realm or it became a non-issue. But the majority of couples either continued to trudge through as the same or ended in divorce. I contend that the spiritual issue must be dealt with thoroughly first.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Rick,
Thank you for the last comment. I agree almost 100%. The only way in which I would disagree or change that is that those “spiritual issues” must be dealt with thoroughly first. Sexual problems in marriage are almost (if not) always connected to something else going on in the lives of a couple. But what I see in many marriages is that people don’t realize what those problems are, but they do see the symptoms in their intimacy/sexual issues. When we create an environment/atmosphere that tells couples they can’t talk about those things with the community of believers, then they won’t. They also won’t talk about and/or discover the other problems (I say “other” because sexual problems are not just a symptom because physical “oneness” in marriage is very important.)
If there was an atmosphere of teaching, preaching, and discussion on what we consider “private” issues such as sex, money, and even politics there would be greater opportunity for discovery and correction of issues in marriages before the critical moment referenced in my post where the pain becomes greater than the embarrassment (in Psychiatry/counseling this is the point at which most people are willing to “see” a counselor.)
I really do appreciate your response Rick I guess I just want to say that I don’t see what we do with our personal lives (sex, money, etc) as being “seperate” from “spiritual” things.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
By the way, I don’t think we really need to counsel people on frequency, positions, length, etc when it comes to sex. You were pulling that from a previous article.
I do think however that just because sex is so prevelant in our culture, that doesn’t mean couples in our churches know how to treat each other when making love. Does that need to be preached on from the pulpit? No. But just because we don’t preach about it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed in some format.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
“I don’t see what we do with our personal lives (sex, money, etc) as being “seperate†from “spiritual†things. ”
Neither do I, and I do believe that pursuing a vigorous spiritual and devotional life almost always has a positive affect on every aspect of a marriage. I have seen couples get on fire for Christ together and months later when I asked how their marriage was the said great. When and if I asked if the problem they had been experiencing is better some replied much better and some said that although the circumstances were the same it no longer was a problem.
Their focus was now on Christ and what seemed to be an issue was no longer one. Everything is interconnected with the spiritual and must be dealt with in that context even if their are practical steps to be taken, the devotional life must be built before anything but surface and most times temporary progress is made.
February 18th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Iggy: There’s no source for the quote…at least I don’t see it. Where and when did Luther say that? I realize you didn’t write the piece, so I’ll understand if you don’t have the source right at hand. I was just curious; seems like an odd thing to say/print without a source.