all law, only some grace
I was consuming a piece of media* over on YouTube today. And it seems that Morning Zoo Crew-wannabe Todd Friel perfectly defined himself in just a few seconds.
For any international readers, long-distance US phone numbers are 11 digits — a “1″ to indicate that one is dialing long distance, a 3-digit area code and a 7-digit main number. Toll free calls have 800, 866, and 877 as their area code. Often businesses will specifically purchase the rights to a phone number whose corresponding letters on the phone keypad spell out something memorable that they can then advertise/promote. WoTM Radio has done this. Their call-in number is:
1-877-LAW-GRACE
But being married to a math teacher, I can see that this is 12 characters, not 11. One other factor that I didn’t mention is that sometimes the purchaser of the number chooses something that doesn’t fit within the 7 characters. Any extra characters that are dialed simply get ignored by the telephone. So this means that WoTM Radio’s actual phone number is:
1-877-LAW-GRAC
I realize that this wasn’t intentional. But it is very representative. They managed to squeeze in all of the LAW, but GRACE got short shrift. Actually given how ungracious Friel is, I’m really surprised that the phone number is even that long.
* I can’t say that I was “watching a video”, since audio with a still image over it is not a video. By the way, if you choose to follow the link and consume the media yourself, be warned that Friel spends the first minute brilliantly proving my point — needless to say, it’s pretty nauseating.
February 16th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Well, that certainly effects the reading of Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t it! “It is by GRACK you have been saved…” Assuming the pronunciation here, but it certainly loses something without the “e.”
Vanna, I’d like to buy a vowel.
February 16th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
is that all you’ve got? that has got to be one of the most meaningless, shallow, and pointless arguments against the watchdogs that i have ever seen on this site. maybe your next post can complain about the WoTM’s color scheme and website design. seriously, if you boys really think you are right then you are going to have to do a lot better than this.
i thought todd friel’s take on the 30 day sex challenge was right on the money. my favorite part was the satire skit about the most relevant church ever. i thought it was a riot and i thought it was right. oh and one more thing. i went to the relevant church website and watched a few of their sermons and i thought they were awful.
February 16th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
SJ,
I believe that this would fall into the category of “wry observation” in which the little things actually mirror a MUCH larger truth.
In this case being that WoTM (Friehl in particular) gives only lip service to grace…
Perfect Point, Brendt!
February 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Christ is the end of the law to everyone that believes. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Who also has made us able ministers of the New Testament, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious.
To follow the law in any form makes Christ a priest after Moses.
For if He were on earth He should NOT be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law, who serve unto the example and SHADOW of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for See, says He, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. But NOW has He obtained a better ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a BETTER covenant which was established upon BETTER promises.
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin IS THE LAW. We as believers are to be obedient to most of the moral law of Moses but not as the OT law, but as the New Covenant written not on tables of stone but by the Spirit on the tables of our hearts. How turn you again to the beggarly elements? Throw OUT the bondwoman and her son! Tell me, you that desire to be under law, DO YOU NOT HEAR THE LAW?
The law is never separated in the Bible, that is man’s invention. Paul says if you do one part you must keep ALL of it. The Galations desired part of the law as did James, but the New Testament is clear, we live Christ not the law. We give God glory for the OT law for it was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The glory of the law was its weakness in that incubated within the law was an inherant weakness that would be fulfilled when Christ came. So when Christ came His glory exposed the eternal weakness of the law, all of it.
Christ does not share His children with the law of Moses, we follow Him because He has made us new creatures created in His very image. He is our elder brother and it is He and not the law upon which are devoted eyes remain. We are in glorious bondage to our wonderful Master and not the law which has been done away with. Christ has made us free indeed in Him!!
Amen and Amen.
Rick Frueh - circa 2008
February 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Wherefore, my brethren, you are become dead to the law by the body of Christg, that you should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
No one keeps the law and it is bondage and even sin to teach others to try. We obey the Spirit of Christ and not the tablets of Moses. It may be used in some form to help a sinner see Christ, but believers are married to Christ because we are dead to the law. Actually, preaching the law is asking people to commit spiritual adultery. The law is dead - GOOD RIDDENS!
I am alive through the resurrection of Christ not the obedience of the law, and if my obedience to Him matches some of the morality in the law it does not mean it is the law of Moses, it just illuminates the consistency of God’s Spirit.
February 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Dead on Bendt.
February 16th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Chris L nailed it when he noted that this was a case of “the little things actually mirror a MUCH larger truth.”
Not that I’m in any way comparing myself to Jesus, but I wonder if anyone said, “Is that all you’ve got” when He told one of His parables and that person missed the point.
February 16th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
If you mix law and Grace you end up with neither… in fact you end up in hell (you know that “place” that is emptied and tossed into the lake of fire)… then if one still stands on this hybrid “Galatianism”, they also will end up in the same condemnation of Hell itself.
The law has it’s place and though I am not going to listen to Todd “splain” himself, I think that there is the basic understanding that Ray Comfort has that the law is to be used to lead to grace.
Now I am not opposed to that. Yet, often I see that after one comes to Grace, then more “rules and laws” are added so much it replaces the Holy Spirit. This is still legalism.
That is the real issue with WoTM is that they have taken God and salvation and formulated it. God is our salvation and He is not a formula… that is lowering God and what He did through Jesus.
iggy
February 16th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
If you break one part of the law, you’ve broken it all. So instead of a believer you become a lawbreaker. But if you are under grace and you sin, you are a wayward son who the Father corrects in love. Everyone wanted the Ten Commandment posted on the walls of our schools. They are the words of death, Paul said they slew him, so without the gospel of grace the law kills.
RIP
February 16th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I heard one preacher say that if you add one bit law to the work of Christ though his death and resurrection you are rejecting His sacrifice and saying that the Cross is not enough.
February 16th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
sj,
i really don’t know how you liked the skit. once again, nails on a chalkboard. at least from that audio, I didn’t feel like he was making any points… just “boo, I’m not relevant, so I’ll make fun of people who are…” it’s much easier that way.
February 16th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Yeah I get the sense that WOTM feels threatened by anyone who don’t do what they do.
February 16th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I really don’t care for the “DJ” format when discussing serious teachings. The MJ and BJ show style that mcoks others is still to me unchristian no matter who does it. I, as you know, do not shy from strong verbiage, but I have always felt that mocking is an insult both to those with whom you disagree and also to Christ.
Let’s face it, that “I am relevant” rant might be alright (I guess) between you and your wife over dinner but to publicly laugh at others and make other brothers the butt of your jokes smacks of self righteousness. Would you encourage your children to make fun of their peers over something they did not agree with? How about your daughter comes home from high school and makes a mocking skit about the way a classmate dresses? Cool? Christlike? That is exactly what we teach our kids when we treat people and issues with disdain. Make fun of gays - make fun of the goths - make fun of everybody who you have issues with.
That is to me foolish jesting.
February 16th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Simon,
From now when you comment can you start every comment by screaming “INCOMING” or “FIRE IN THE HOLE”. That’s what we did in the Army to let us know when we were being attacked.
I would love to visit your churches website and listen to a sermon. Do you have a link other than Biblegateway?
February 16th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Well, Rick, what you don’t get is that they didn’t use any FCC naughty words so that isn’t coarse jesting. /sarcasm
February 16th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
good points rick. that’s how i felt listening to it too.
February 16th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Uh-oh. I am in agreement with Tim Reed. Where have I strayed! (humor)
Hey, is there a keyboard sign for humor?
February 16th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Usually people use a smiley…
=)
February 16th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
tim - when a pastor’s wife calls ingrid from slice a b**ch is that considered coarse jesting or is that how you define loving christian discernment?
http://twitter.com/mandalyn07/statuses/713574592
your hypocrisy disgusts me!
February 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Actually, that would not be covered in coarse jesting, though I would suggest that it is not speech seasoned in grace, Simon… It is actually pretty mild compared to most things Ingrid says about those she disagrees with…
Just wondering, how many messages did you have to dig through to find that?
February 16th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
way to be a stalker, sj. at least I didn’t call her an enemy of jesus
February 16th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
SJ,
Mandy’s right here, you can talk directly to her.
And you want to talk hypocricy, lets talk about how you think its fine for WOTM to publicly mock an entire church, yet criticize Mandy for what she said on a venue that “is a service for friends, family, and co–workers to communicate and stay connected”.
BTW, anyone get the idea that SJ isn’t just a concerned commenter, but is likely Old Jim or one of the other watchdoggies?
February 16th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
How come Simon’s name clicks to Gateway word search? Is there a reason someone doesn’t just leave their name in black instead of linking to Gateway?
February 16th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
tim - as mandy’s pastor and husband my suggestion is that you spend more time teaching her what the bible says about the proper christian attitude that women should have.
1 Peter 3:3-5 (NIV)
3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful.
once you and your wife have quit being hypocrites, sorrowfully repented of your hate and anger and have become models of jesus’ love and gentleness then maybe you will have something to say on these matters. until then your blatant and bankrupt hypocrisy will continue to disgust me.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
If Ingrid calls someone a “slut” I would say it is fair game to call Ingrid a “b*tch”.
BTW, “b*tch” is a biblical word in the Hebrew language… that is what the Hebrews did to God in the desert.
Yet, even in the way it was used by Mandy…
bitch �� (bch) KEY �
NOUN:
1. A female canine animal, especially a dog.
Offensive
2. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
3. A lewd woman.
4. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
5. Slang A complaint.
6. Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult.
It seems the word though not very graceful fits the occasion…
iggy
February 16th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
The reference for the definition is here…
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/bitch;_ylt=Ak1E.xgfddajqi0kxURIpSmsgMMF
iggy
February 16th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Iggy, nice with the support. I’d never seen some of those definitions before.
SJ, I don’t know you, but not addressing Mandy directly is very rude. Do both Tim and Mandy have things to learn and ways in which to grow, absolutely? But Brother (I’m making some assumptions using that word), that is not the way to help them. I in no way defend Mandy’s choice of words, but that choice of wording (as evidenced by Iggy) or any choice of words does not warrant personal attacks and rudeness.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Read: Tim, you need to get your woman in line.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Simon - I would agree that Mandy’s word use there was loose. Maybe having a bad day? But I would ask you in light of your last comment how do you reconcile Ingrid’s open rebuke to ordained men no matter who they are? Is your admonition to Tim the same as to Tom (Inrgid’s husband). I believe Ingrid’s unbiblical verbiage to be far worse than the ungarded word used by sister Reed.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
yes, bad day. should i have said it in a public way? no. do I think she does more damage without saying “those words?” yes.
sj,
I think you’re out of line. seriously. and I will never stop being a hypocrite. also, I think my role that defines me is ‘christian’.. not ‘pastor’s wife.’
February 16th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Your hypocrisy has been laid out by several people here, are you disgusted by it? Or do you only reserve that for me?
February 16th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
One small admition of guilt by Mandy shines alone when compared with any SOL admitions.
February 16th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Ummmmm….3 things:
First, on a lighter note:
Is it wrong to say someone is a “b” when they are acting like one?
I mean, I can be a jerk to someone and then I can also be a real butthole–that’s jerk on a whole different level, ya know?
So…if the shoe fits…?
Second thing:
RE: once you and your wife have quit being hypocrites, sorrowfully repented of your hate and anger and have become models of jesus’ love and gentleness then maybe you will have something to say on these matters. until then your blatant and bankrupt hypocrisy will continue to disgust me.
Turn that cold, clear eye on the grand dame (ahem) of christian radio and you’ll have a point. Until then everyone here knows that you’ll let things slide when you agree with the substance of a person’s position. Yeah. You’ve got something to say about hypocrisy.
Third thing:
RE: WoTM.
All I can say is Ray Comfort + his shtick about bananas = ’nuff said.
AND
Kirk Cameron revealed where he was headed when he “became a Christian” back in his TV days. He was a jerk in the name of Christ to his castmates. Yes, he apologized. But his TV shows he didn’t really change.
Did you see the street interview where for once I saw him getting through to someone with his “law” approach and instead of praying with the guy right there, building a relationship or at least getting him to a church, he told the guy to “go home, sometime tonight pray to God”…
yeah, they really care about people.
whatever.
February 17th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Wow, way to bash someone about something that is –completely meaningless.
I wonder how much fun we could have with other’s phone numbers here. Hey, we have anyone with a 666 area code?
February 17th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Wow, way to miss the point.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I had a friend whose address was “Box 666″ if that counts.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:38 am
BTW - in defense of Mandy I think Tim is much worse.
=)
My first official use of that sign. If I only had a left side to my brian!
February 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Jazz,
The phone number like much of Todd’s approach to his show, is half Law and half Grace which leaves one with both compromised. The phone number is only a funny observation of the core issue with that view.
iggy
February 17th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
tim is much worse.. ha ha
February 17th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Can someone look at this? I feel kind of funny.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
ha ha. You’re still a horrible person, Tim
February 17th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
See Tim, you metaphoricalize everything. The knife is literal!
February 17th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
–I had a friend whose address was “Box 666″ if that counts.–
Maybe. You are, after all, friends with the person, so with a number like that, they must be the devil. Tell us, how good a friend to you is the devil? (realize, of course, there is no good answer to that question)
February 17th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Are ODM’s capable of nuance?
It seems that they miss it all the time. They hard-line everything to black and white and either/or.
Hey everybody there are shades of gray in the world!
*winks at Jazz*
February 17th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I just noticed that TWOM is conducting a poll about whether or not Doug Pagitt is a heretic. I find these contests and polls to be unseemly and self serving. What does it matter what others think, what do you think and why.
What is the purpose of such a poll? Is it an election year copycat? Can you imagine the Apostle Paul conducting a poll with the congregation. This internet thing continues to spawn some crazy stuff from all over the spectrum.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
My oh my, that seems rather man-centered.
February 17th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
And here are the choices:
“Orthodox,” “Aberrant” or “Heresy,” and then explain why in one clear sentence.
Can you imagine? One sentence to explain why someone is a heretic? Is this a game show event.
“I’ll take Pagitt for 200″.
“The answer is heretic”.
“What is Doug Pagitt”.
“Oh no, sorry, we were looking for Brain MacLaren”.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
…how good a friend to you is the devil? (realize, of course, there is no good answer to that question) I know, I know. It’s a “lose-lose” for me…but that’s OK. I’m usually on the “losing” side around here anyway. Tim and Chris let me hang out here, throw me a bone from time to time…and I think Joe Martino is pretty funny sometimes.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Well, Thank you Keith. I think…
February 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am
They’re taking a poll?
If it was a democratic politician “feeling out” his constituency they’d say it was reflective of a lack of character.
If it was a pastor taking a survey to get a sense of what is important to his congregation they’d say he was an immature “pastor” who is man-centered.
Once again, we see the outlying symptoms of congregationalism colliding with the american idolatry of autonomy called “individualism”.
Whatever. As if the average church member is theologically trained enough to understand nuanced distinctions and arguments after they’ve been reduced and bashed by some equally unqualified guy with a mic and a radio signal.
Just because you can regurgitate some doctrinal formulations…bah! whatever…
February 18th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Yes nc! What do they do with the results?
85% say heretic
10% say aberrant
2% say orthodox
3% say he doesn’t exist
Now we will conduct another poll. To the 2% that say Pagitt is orthodox. Are they:
[ ] unsaved
[ ] barely saved
[ ] Muslim
February 18th, 2008 at 9:47 am
omigosh!!!
I LOOOOOOOOVE the heresy of Friel who says that the 5 solas are the “essentials” of Christian faith.
The Solas are ecclesiologically deficient. There is no mention of the Church and its essential role in the world.
Ironic that SOLA SCRIPTURA argues that “the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself is an idea directly opposed to the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican, and Roman Catholic traditions, which teach that the Bible can be authentically interpreted only by Apostolic Tradition and the ecumenical church councils.”
Why is it ironic?
Because this claim is predicated on an assumption that the Bible can be and has been authentically interpreted by the Reformers!
So as long as we don’t appeal to the seemingly arbitrary decisions of a pope, or apostolic tradition, etc. etc. then we’re biblical. Forget the hermeneutical task…it doesn’t exist apparently.
Yeah.
Whatever.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:20 am
–Now we will conduct another poll. To the 2% that say Pagitt is orthodox. Are they:–
How about “from another planet”?
Or “suffering from the effects of Woodstock (still)”?
February 18th, 2008 at 11:30 am
–Wow, way to miss the point.–
Really, Brendt? Where did I miss the point?
After all, isn’t the point of this to somehow make WotM seem like the bad guys? Like their phone number is somehow indicative of a lack of believe in grace on their parts?
Maybe they didn’t want a phone number like LAG-RACE because, well, what does that mean? And if they had truncated it like LA-GRACE, it may have seemed like some kind of whacky California thing, or whacky French thing. And hey, is it their fault they can only have 7 letters?
February 18th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Jazz,
LOL!
The point is that they have more serious issues if they mix law and grace… and the phone number is a “sign” of where they are off.
This is not actually a post about their phone number… this takes some subtle discerning… = )
iggy
February 18th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
–The point is that they have more serious issues if they mix law and grace… and the phone number is a “sign†of where they are off.–
This assumes, one, that they are off, and two, the phone number is any indication. Thus, the references to th3 3vi1 666 area code, kind of to show how asinine that is.
As far as them being off in the methods, well, that could be open to (serious) debate, but I think they do make sense.