are you kidding me?
I have to run this morning, but was amazed at the ignorance and extremely tainted bias that this article showed. For the last time Ingrid, RICK WARREN IS NOT ADVOCATING RELIGIOUS PLURALISM! He is simply stating where our society is headed, and painting a picture of the culture that is emerging in America! Second, none of the things that describe pluralism in this article are bad things.
- engaging with those who are of different faith
- seeking to understand where non-believers are coming from in open and honest dialoge
- it’s not relativism (mind you, Harvard used that term), but understanding out diversity
- Dialogging about similarities and differences
Now, in third grade I took a strenuous course in reading comprehension. And, no where can you conclude from this description of “pluralism” that
“If Christians insist on their exclusive views of salvation through Christ alone and refuse to participate in ecumenical/interfaith dialogue and even worship, they will become a threat to public order in our global society.”
In fact, a strong theme throughout the article was KEEPING one’s own faith and culture, while trying to understand another’s. But I guess that is why we are extremely irrelevant today. We have bowed out of any conversation with those that we disagree with.
Here are some of the highlights in the article
“(Photo: Rick Warren gets tested for HIV to promote AIDS awareness. Warren ignores the fact that the “gay†bathhouses that run rampant in his home state are a primary source of HIV infection as well as the spread of over 30 other venereal diseases. Charity begins at home, Rick. How about a Saddleback picket outside one of those places? )”
“You give me a pentagram and I’ll hand over my cross. Then we’ll have world peace, right?”
““Global Strategist†and apostasy enthusiast Rick Warren was at Georgetown University yesterday and declared that “faith-based organizations†are the missing link to solving the world’s problems. Wiccans apparently would qualify. They do, after all, have faith.”
I have been trying to figure out how to solve the aids crisis… and there is the answer. Picket all the gay hangout! Isn’t there a website and organization devoted to doing that? Maybe they could get around to doing it after Heath Ledger’s funeral.
February 5th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Why does it seem like the only casualty in the truth war is truth?
February 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
It always does my heart good to see Ingrid advocating that we love those that disagree with us as Fred Phelps would love them.
February 5th, 2008 at 11:22 am
At this point I truly wonder if some Christians would even attempt to put out a fire at a gay bathhouse. Or would they just assume it was God’s will to let it burn?
February 5th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Isn’t it obvious that Ingrid’s comment about picketing gay bathhouses is laced with sarcasm? She’s pointing out Rick Warren’s hesitancy in offending certain people groups.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Well, Phil, you and others here advocate the same behavior when it comes to evangelism, which, contrary to Bruce’s thoughts, does require opening your mouth.
People without Christ are like those who are asleep in a burning building, ignorant to the danger that they are in. It requires Christians to go in (or out into) the world to awaken them from their slumber, and warn them of the danger. You cant do that by opening a door for somebody.
The complaint about Rick Warren is that he does not differentiate his faith from others, or even from a Dr. Phil type faith. It is all about works, coming together with people of other faiths to accomplish world peace, assist those with AIDS, etc. These are good things, and things that we as Christians should be concerned with. But these things pale in comparison to the ultimate command that we are to follow, and that is to ‘go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature ‘ (Mark 16:15) They are two sides to the same coin. Lately, Mr. Warren is way more concerned with bringing together faith based organizations to feed the world, and get along with them to accomplish his goals. Pluralism by any other name is still….well….Pluralism.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
I believe the purpose of the post was to illustrate the dishonest reporting being done. Which, I guess we’re all in agreement happened?
Joe
February 5th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Pastor Boy,
So tell me please………….I keep asking………….how this open your mouth, full proclamation of the gospel, evangelism works out in your day to day life? In the last week, how many people did you verbally share the complete gospel with? Since it requires a specific action, it can be quantified.
Instead, I start every day with the desire and purpose to live for Jesus. To let the light of the gospel shine through my life. Some days………the light is pretty bright. Other days the bulb is burnt out. I don’t try and manufacture soulwinning “opportunities” I just try and be the best Christian I know to be, and I try and walk through whatever doors God opens for me.
As to the gay bath houses. Ingrid is a homophobic, plain and simple. I suspect the people in gay bath houses KNOW what homophobic Christians think. They probably already KNOW the gospel. They don’t need another sermon………..they need to see Christians who can see them for more than their wanker.
I like Ingrid’s “a primary source” Nice choice of the article “a” that way she can duck being accused of LYING. The fact is “THE” primary source of AIDS in the world is heterosexual sex. She is even wrong on the STD issue. Heterosexual sex is the primary source of all STD’s.
Bruce
February 5th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Pastor Boy,
Last night, I shared the entire Gospel with a group of 4 Muslim students. I was intentional about going to the college and sharing with people. I shared with a larger group, but I didn’t get through the whole thing. So, in my wanderings yesterday, I verbally shared with 10 people. I gave away that many New Testaments as well
And, by the way, every place I entered, I opened the door for someone else. Does that count?
I would, by the way, warn ANYBODY in any burning building. That is just being a Christian.
February 5th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Bruce,
I really don’t keep that tight of tabs, but in the last week, I shared the entire Gospel verbally in all different forums with a total of 33 people.
February 5th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Pastor Boy,
Remove from the total those who are believers and remove from the total those you did not present the full, complete, unvarnished, unadulterated, gospel. Remember the verbalizing of THE message is the gold standard.
How many then?
If you are actually, using the criteria above, sharing the gospel to 33 people a week (and that is average?) how mnay of those witness opportunities have translated into people sitting in the pew and serving Jesus?
Bruce
February 5th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Sitting in a pew is serving Jesus?
Man, that Baptist stuff has rubbed off on you.
I don’t give the Gospel to those who either claim to know Christ or can articulate His presence in their lives, I do ask them when is the last time they read their Bible, if Jesus is precious to them, etc.
so….33 got the unbridled, uncompromised, bad news and then good news.
This does not count the tens and tens who watch my sermon videos, witnessing videos, and read what I write in the local paper and on the internet. And it surely does not include those I open the door for or have given tracts to.
February 5th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Words, words, and more words….
Meaningless to most people, I’m sure. How many people do we actually show the love of God to? How do people know what’s behind our words?
February 5th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Pastorboy,
You are sailing right by me, friend.
What is the goal of evangelism? To see people brought into the Kingdom? the local Church is a visible demonstration of the Kingdom of God. (or in theory it should be) If your evangelizing doesn’t result in people being brought into the Church and serving Jesus then your methodology is suspect. It is a valid question. Does your “evangelism” result in numeric growth in Church?
It is easy to play the numbers game. I have preached thousands of sermons to thousands of people. I pastored one country Church where had over 100 converts a year. I preached 3 times a week, for years, on the street, at fairs, etc. I am sure I have preached the gospel to over 100,000 people via street preaching. I have handed out tens of thousands of tracts.
To what end? That is my point. Much of this type of evangelism is “feel good” evangelism. It feeds our Elijah mentality. But, it it does not result in new converts being brought into the Church then we must seriously question the methodology.
In business we talk about the bottom line. Too many Churches and pastors glory in the Gross Sales line of the balance sheet. The real important stat is net profit. The bottom line.
So before you bang on those of us who are choosing a different way……………please show us how your methods are making any quantifiable difference.
Please………..no “we won’t know til we get to heaven” lines. Are we not called on to be fruit examiners? Time to examine the fruit bowl.
I know this sounds harsh but I am weary of “soulwinning” Christians who go around and beat up anyone who doesn’t use their methods. If they want to use methods from half a century ago then go for it…………..but don’t bang on us who reject those methods.
As a side note…………………..I question the notion that anything “evangelistically done via the internet has any merit.
Here is the bottom line for me. I love Jesus. I love people. Jesus is the Good news. I want to share that good news through my life day by day. As God grants me opportunity I will share with all whom I come in contact.
This little light I’m gonna let it shine.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
BTW,
It is a false notion that Christians do not need the gospel preached to them. We regularly need to hear, and re-embrace the Good News.
The gospel is for saint and sinner.
Bruce
February 5th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
why warn when you can make hateful posters and picket
February 5th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Basically, when it gets down to boasting about how many people got evangelized so and so’s efforts, and how many people so and so brought in to the Kingdom, you know we’re screwing it up somehow.
Joe
February 5th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Joe,
I did ASK Pastorboy so I guess I am guilty of making him boast
My point is that people like Pastorboy. etal tend to make evangelism this quantifiable act we do, instead of a life we live.
In the West we tend to compartmentalize everything…….Evangelism is what I do on Tuesday from 7-9
We are Christians 24-7, 365 days a year. To effectively reach a post-modern. post-christian world we must develop a holistic view of the Christian life and all the things the Christian life entails.
Bruce
February 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I agree Bruce. Good point.
February 5th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Pastorboy:
I am assumming that you saw more than 10 people ?
I would imagine, it was over 1,000 (very minimal).
So, at the greatest, you did this with 1% of the people that you came into contact with. I suggest you better start talking more to live up to what you preach.
February 5th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Man, sharing the gospel is the easy part… making disciples is the hard part.
I deal with drug addicted people who just found faith and are in halfway houses… they have 2 or three wives and kids with all of them. They want to do what it right, will stay sober for months, and then do something and break their parole. I often lose track with them, yet if I see them again, it is like starting to restore them from the lies of Satan all over again.
These are real people who are struggling in their faith.
I have a friend who had an affair and thinks God hates him. His marriage is breaking up and he sees himself as not worthy to be married let alone a Christian. Again, damage and restoration…
I knew a guy that I spent hours with talking about the grace of God. He would lie to me over and over about why he needed money and God told me to keep giving him it.
He finally told me one day that the guilt of knowing that I shared with him the truth and power of Grace, and that the could not “feel” accepted becuase of his crack addiction, that he finally threw it away as he wanted to stop lying to me.
He cleaned up and got a job and last I saw him he was doing great.
It is easy to cast a line in the water and catch fish, but to clean them is the messy part. I could go on and on about how I have had to correct and teach people struggling for years in their faith because someone taught them garbage about God… and they believed it. Once they heard the truth they were set free! It is the Gospel of Grace that works in a man to change them.
I ahve “lead” a lot of people to Jesus, but I have walked with more down the road of their faith in heartache and struggles. So, to hear that someone “preaches the gospel” and nothing else and then condemns others for not doing as much as them, I find rather perverse. My regret is not having more time to do more!
Funny thing is Rick Warren is probably this generations greatest evangelist that is alive. I do not agree with all he does and states, but then I could not sit through a Billy Graham sermon either. Yet, I see God using this mediocre representation of living the Gospel out, as something God has used mightily… Perhaps becuase it is easy to live out our faith if we grasp Grace and the Life of Christ.
Most teach that we must live it out as if living out laws and rules, yet miss doing it that way is impossible.
It must be God living it out through Jesus in and through us.
Be blessed,
iggy
February 5th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Iggy,
I have many regrets, but one of the biggest regrets I have is the 12 years I spent in a new plant in rural, really rural SE Ohio. Appalachia country. Dirt poor. We started with my family and grew to several hundred people. We had bus routes and a Christian School. We literally came into contact with thousands of people. Needy, hurting people. Broken people.
But, I was a soulwinning machine. My mantra was win them, wet them, work them, waste them. It was all about numbers. How many converts. Hundreds were “converted” We had little if any true discipleship. I proudly stated “I do my discipling from the pulpit.”
Sadly many fell away. They needed far more than I gave them. I wonder if I did not make more than a few “seven-fold children of hell.”
So this is the context I come from. I don’t want to do this to people ever again. I want to see them come to Jesus but I also want them to be walking with him 50 years from now.
My approach to sin was “just say No.” I remember how God taught me what a dumb *ss I was about this. I have a lot of medical problems. I take narcotics for pain. I have for ten years.
I remember having to stop one drug, only to find out I was dependent (nice Baptist word for addicted). I went through 3 weeks of hellish detox. I will never say to a drug addict “just say No” How arrogant was I to relegate the suffering of others to a cliche. God taught me, like God only could ,that people need us through the whole journey.
My mother was a drug addict. She killed herself at age 49. Her foolish, arrogant preacher son told her, just stop. She needed a hand. What I have her was a Bible, and a holier-than-thou sermon
Just a little context…………God has oft bent and broken me. He is far from finished. My arrogance runs deep.
Bruce
February 5th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Bruce,
I want to make it clear I am not saying preaching is not a thing to do… LOL!
My point, (though rather emotional) was that we all have a job to do. If one is preaching the Gospel GREAT! but don’t put down someone else for not being an elbow like you… I am a different part of the body and deal with other things that someone else will or cannot deal with.
Some plant, some water but God makes it grow…
If one is bragging that planting is the “All of All” then they are missing out that there is much more than what they are doing… I have lead more people to “Christ” after someone lead them to the Cross to get their sins forgiven… they still struggle until they found out that they did not receive the whole gospel!
They received forgiveness, but not Jesus Himself… and people like me and you get to clean up that mess. = )
iggy
February 6th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Make disciples, not converts.
Neil